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On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following.
If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era).
The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement).
Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence?
In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
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On October 28 2019 17:39 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:
Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time.
I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings.
Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Really low skill era ? So you are saying that Korean top players from like 2013-2014 would crush Serral and Maru easily ? I would say the skill levels from top players are far better than anything from the past. Game has evolved, so have the players. Was the competition tougher back then ? Yeah, it was. But that doesnt mean that the skill level was somehow better. I have seen great new plays from players now in these current Blizzcon games. So game is still evolving and players are still creating new strategies and tricks to get their play better and better. What goes to Stephano being better....yeah, he used roaches and then swarmhosts. He won a tournament and otherwise his accomplishments were very mediocre even in Europe. How in earth is he better than a player that has been top-4 (or even number 1) player in the world for almost 2 years now ? Show nested quote +You seem to believe that somehow, the game becoming close to dead, 90% of the korean pros losing their team in korea, losing a huge competition that was seen for many as almost more important than GSL (PROLEAGUE) and losing the constant and guaranteed income that they made by being in a team didnt impact their level of play.
If you really believe that the level got better after that, you are not only delusional, but pointless to talk to. On October 28 2019 12:03 swarminfestor wrote:
Agreed much with this. I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances. You cannot simply put Serral's current performances topped over the Innovation's past performances.
For the case of foreigners, I would like to swap Stephano with Naniwa even though the latter lacked the sportsmanship value.
Well again its hard to compare different timelines. But the absolute level of play is much higher now at the top altough the competition is more narrow. "I don't get the logic how Serral's performances in these two years surpassed GSL's caliber players during their peak performances." He wins over 50% of tournaments he enters. He had 40+ games winstreak in tournaments in 2018 and won almost all of them including Blizzcon and GSL vs. the World. He fairs excellent against the toughest Koreans in the field. Almost all other players fear to face him and that has been the case like over a year now. He is expected to win every tournament he enters and anything but winning is dissapointment. How many players in the history have had the same effect on other players or even same expectations ? MVP, Life, Innovation... ? Not many. And how many players have been able to remain in the top that long ? Again, not that many if none. Again, hard to compare players in different times, but his accomplishments are unique in the history of Starcraft 2. And what goes to Naniwa, lol. Again, few good results and otherwise just mediocre. And no, you just cant argue that Stephano or Naniwa were better only because of "tougher competition". They were never really that near of the top. Maybe few peaks, but thats it. Otherwise their results were really mediocre. If we even look at foreinger scene; Serral dominated that over a year and except from Raynor still does. Naniwa or Stephano were very volatile even in their peak. They could challenge good Koreans the other day and next day lose to Elfi, Tefel or Bly. And what goes to tournament wins, there isnt even anything to compare to. Serral is just so much better than they were combined. Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 12:10 GalacticFox wrote:
Not to mention the highly zerg favoured meta Serral is playing in...
LoL, yeah, the whole 2 years of pure Zerg dominance... Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 14:33 roflQUAFFLE wrote:
If you remove Serral's wins from the past 2 years, I highly doubt anyone would be crying Zerg imba. Yup. Its funny that people like to remind how for example Life, Stephano, Naniwa, Parting or even MC have been SO CREATIVE AND REVOLUTIONAL at their gameplay. But when we talk about Serral, nobody seems to remember his burrow roach harass, countless ling runbys, drops in multiple angles and bases same time, perfect surrounds, stunning scouting almost every game etc. etc. And all of this is forgotten because "zerg so imba".
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[QUOTE]Really low skill era ? So you are saying that Korean top players from like 2013-2014 would crush Serral and Maru easily ? I would say the skill levels from top players are far better than anything from the past. Game has evolved, so have the players. Was the competition tougher back then ? Yeah, it was. But that doesnt mean that the skill level was somehow better. I have seen great new plays from players now in these current Blizzcon games. So game is still evolving and players are still creating new strategies and tricks to get their play better and better.
What goes to Stephano being better....yeah, he used roaches and then swarmhosts. He won a tournament and otherwise his accomplishments were very mediocre even in Europe. How in earth is he better than a player that has been top-4 (or even number 1) player in the world for almost 2 years now [QUOTE]?
You seem to believe that somehow, the game becoming close to dead, 90% of the korean pros losing their team in korea, losing a huge competition that was seen for many as almost more important than GSL (PROLEAGUE) and losing the constant and guaranteed income that they made by being in a team didnt impact their level of play.
If you really believe that the level got better after that, you are not only delusional, but pointless to talk to.
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On October 28 2019 20:41 MarianoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:On October 28 2019 15:23 Charoisaur wrote:On October 28 2019 11:03 Xain0n wrote:On October 28 2019 06:51 starkiller123 wrote:On October 28 2019 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On October 28 2019 06:13 Xain0n wrote:
People on this forum are so eager to see Maru crowned GOAT, it's insane; it's also surprising how revered he is whenever he loses..
So ironic... don't worry he won't notice it, next he will reply that you hate Serral or something in that vein I will instead reply that I was never claiming for Serral to be called GOAT and those who do are exhalted; on the other hand, only extreme bias can lead to place Serral 18th in achievements on a GOAT list. I also want to remind you that a flock of vultures descended on Serral in the rare occasions he actually lost, while Maru's much more frequent losses are mourned like the fall of a messiah. Don't try to take a moral highground that's laughable. Maybe you don't call him GOAT but you're constantly spamming how he's player of the year, most dominant player ever, most skilled player ever etc and I don't have to talk about your reactions when he loses. It's hilarious that you can even remotely think our behavior is comparable. I call Serral most dominant player ever because he is and best player of the year when he is, basing my statements on facts, not on the conviction that Code S is holy and untouchable and incredibly superior to any tournament. My memory is still decent and I remember that you said multiple times that you hold BlizzCon in very high regard, what would happen if Serral were to win a second one? Your memory instead must not be sharp, as not only I never said Serral is the GOAT, I also never said he's the most skilled ever. My reactions when Serral loses? I may not write anything or speak my mind saying things you don't like(like when I said Serral was not in his best shape because, ehm, he was actually losing games as opposed to being undefeated for months) or defend him against the vile attacks many posters love to make on this forum after he loses. I do not troll for entire days spamming sarcastic posts when Maru wins and I don't say that he sucks the many times he gets eliminated early from tournaments he could be expected to win. Can't you really tell the difference? If Serral wins second Blizzcon, it will be a fantastic achievement. But in the current state of the game, many people will challenge and disregard it (rightfully). Serral is obviously already one of the best players ever, but your statements and opinions of him being the most dominant, player of the year etc. those are not facts. Everyone can have different criteria, I think your criteria are wrong but I dont mind you having your own opinion. The way I see it, Serral is the most consistent player for 2018 and 2019. But 2018 player of the year and the most dominant was clearly Maru, he had the best results by far. 2019 we have no most dominant player. Serral again didnt participate in GSL with the best players in the world. And in tournaments with Koreans he was beaten by soO, Innovation and Stats. Won 1/4 premiere tournaments with Koreans participating, while the 1 was highly affected by game balance (Elazer was the runner-up...LOL) + AsusROG and WESG didnt even have all the best korean line-up due to format. Serral is an amazing player but this over-glorification from foreignland is just ridiculous...
Na, 2018 player of the year is no question Serral. Maru's 4 GSL can be challenged and disregard due to the proxy meta (rightfully)
Outside of the proxy meta, Maru achievement is "average" compare to other more accomplished Koreans
Also Statistics > opinions
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On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days.
Using your logic, Maru can't be a GOAT contender, because he won his GSLs in this "weaker" era. Do you agree?
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On October 28 2019 23:26 Sabaton94 wrote:
You seem to believe that somehow, the game becoming close to dead, 90% of the korean pros losing their team in korea, losing a huge competition that was seen for many as almost more important than GSL (PROLEAGUE) and losing the constant and guaranteed income that they made by being in a team didnt impact their level of play.
If you really believe that the level got better after that, you are not only delusional, but pointless to talk to.
The pool of competitors did get much smaller, but the best players stuck around, and are just as motivated as ever to do their best. A larger pool only increases the chances of having more number of high-level players. It doesn't necessarily increase the average player's skill level (that's how bell curves work), as any single player can only have so many practice partners at a given time. Your undue arrogance is based on false assumptions.
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Argue argue argue, have fun.
Anyway,
Serral 3-1 SoO
Reynor 3-2 Trap
Rogue 3-1 Classic
Maru 3-2 Dark
Serral 3-2 Reynor
Rogue 3-2 Maru
Serral 4-2 Rogue
After Serral wins 3 ZvZs in a row to win the finals, people still argue it’s because Zerg imba
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On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
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On October 29 2019 00:01 kaykoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. Using your logic, Maru can't be a GOAT contender, because he won his GSLs in this "weaker" era. Do you agree?
There are literally people who argue that Stephano's (very short-lived) reign was more impressive than Serral's because it was due to a more competitive era. It's utterly futile to inject logic into these people. More money and players does not mean more quality play, and the developments throughout the years in gameplay have shown this. One only has to look at old VODs to see how bad everybody was—at everything—except maybe roach micro and ling runbys. Don't even get me started with their lack of creep spread. Honestly, they looked like 6200-ish GMs. lol
Serral's muta control makes DRG and Life's muta control look merely good, rather than spectacular as everyone perceived it back then.
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Northern Ireland23758 Posts
On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more.....
Or you could just watch Serral play closely? Even outside of his rare streams there’s footage of his feed from GSL vs the World this year that is available too.
Stephano is a great talent and a monster in his day, but far less rounded than Serral, his vP was much scarier than his other matchups.
Serral isn’t entirely lacking in innovation either, he usually brings some slight twist each tournament cycle. Constant nydus backstabs vs a bio Terran when they’re transitioning to ghosts for example, where he skipped the ultra transition or the BL transition in favour of constant counterattacking.
Perhaps he lacks the flavour of a Stephano or a Naniwa especially through nostalgic lenses because he doesn’t have a particular style outside of ‘being good at everything’
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On October 28 2019 18:01 Psychobabas wrote:
1 Terran! LOL
Terrans didn't show up in their final matches to advance, not really the balance's fault, except infestors being strong.
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Normally I would say no GSLs means can't be in the GOAT conversation. But I think the only exception to that is winning multiple IEM Katowice and / or Blizzcon's. Serral realistically doesn't have multiple worldwide majors under his belt nor does he have a GSL or multiple GSLs (ideally for GOAT level comparisons).
Realistically I'd probably say Life. Even Maru or Rogue if they win a global championship (or two) or a GSL or two more respectively. For me to have Serral in the conversation he needs to win at least another Blizzcon or an IEM. Or ideally move to Korea and do it in the best competition in the world.
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On October 29 2019 00:08 RDO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more..... The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument.
Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
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On October 29 2019 02:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 00:08 RDO wrote:On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more..... The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument. Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Just out of curiosity: where is the objective proof, that the skill level has decreased? Facts and opinions seem to get mixed in this thread.
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On October 29 2019 02:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 00:08 RDO wrote:On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more..... The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument. Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams.
Wrong, it's a known fact that we don't really know but can argue both angles fairly well depending on what exactly we mean with "skill" in the first place.
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On October 29 2019 02:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 02:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 29 2019 00:08 RDO wrote:On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:
[quote]
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match..
Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more..... The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument. Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams. Wrong, it's a known fact that we don't really know but can argue both angles fairly well depending on what exactly we mean with "skill" in the first place.
Well, we could argue about what the definition of "skill" is, but I'd go with the pros on this one, and stay on the "players are better now" side.
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I'd argue Players are better now but with kespa Teams koreans would be better than they are now (so basically the growth of Skill could be bigger).
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On October 29 2019 00:06 TentativePanda wrote:
Argue argue argue, have fun.
Anyway,
Serral 3-1 SoO
Reynor 3-2 Trap
Rogue 3-1 Classic
Maru 3-2 Dark
Serral 3-2 Reynor
Rogue 3-2 Maru
Serral 4-2 Rogue
After Serral wins 3 ZvZs in a row to win the finals, people still argue it’s because Zerg imba
To be fair Zerg could be imba and Serral be the best player at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive!
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On October 29 2019 02:33 HeroSandro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 02:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 29 2019 00:08 RDO wrote:On October 28 2019 23:16 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 14:39 vyzion wrote:On October 28 2019 10:29 Sabaton94 wrote:On October 28 2019 09:48 StarcraftSquall wrote:On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:
[quote]
Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match..
Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame..
I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality. Serral can be GOAT because he has won in every style. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t feel the need to participate in Code S as he feels it is unfair to the Korean players to take one of their spots. Maru on the other hand - well, we’ve seen him get bopped on multiple occasions. I’ll reiterate this: the reason we have not seen Maru vs Serral since the debate started is solely on Maru. Not only has serral never competed in Korea, but he never competed when the game was healthy and at its highest level. Now, maybe you are a new player and have no idea about sc2 and its history, but because of the incredibly low level of play we see now (since Proleague disbanded and all korean teams but jin air disappeared) i would not even put serral as the best foreigner of all time. I personally believe Stephano was a better foreigner because he was going head to head vs koreans at their peak forms AND innovated sc2 with max roach timings. Serral is a great player but plays in a really low skill era, where competition is at its weakest since the early WoL days. I disagree completely. I've been following BW and SC2 for 20 years and Serral is among the best of the best. To me, Life was one of the best players of all time and Serral is very similar to Life. However, my opinion and your opinion are entirely anecdotal. All we have to go off of is results an Serral's results are incredible. Lol, you may have been following for 20 years, but you clearly dont know how to analyze anything you are following. If you were really watching sc2 closely, you would have noticed that back in the days, Koreans were SHITTING on foreigners (HotS era). The WCS (EU and NA) were filled with B and C tier korean players and the round of 8 were still filled with koreans (I remember once moonglade making it far and it was a hell of an achievement). Now, most koreans struglle vs foreigners. It started since Proleague and almost all the teams disbanded. Coincidence? In your opinion I guess so, because you seem to believe their level of play is even higher, but foreigners just improved much more..... The level of skill and the level of competition are different things. Even if the competition was fiercer back then, it's pretty much a known fact that the players have gotten better with time; the game itself changed and evolved, and things that were out of the ordinary back then now are pretty normal: the pros themselves stated this multiple times, and they are the same pros that competed in the past. Also, your last argument about koreans that are now struggling more against foreigners, is purely based on the fact that in your opinions koreans should always be way better than foreigners by some kind of fate, otherwise something's wrong, which is certainly not a valid argument. Wrong. It's a known fact that the skill level has decreased since the disbandment of Kespa teams. Just out of curiosity: where is the objective proof, that the skill level has decreased? Facts and opinions seem to get mixed in this thread.
Man, that Charoisaur guy said that he would ignore me because my statistically supported opinion=facts were not fact at all, and now he's emphatically declaring his own(korean biased) opinion to be a known fact.
He's truly top tier material.
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Why people just cant assume sc2 is a game that is dying and competetion (and skill lvl) now sucks?
Koreans dont even train nowdays. There are planty of examples of that. Rogue said it before winning GSL (he wasnt even training and started training when he saw zerg was op). Soo also admited he wasnt training.
Is so hard too admit competionts after proleague dissamble doenst count as serious? Or in other words you cant compare after proleafue with before.
Is like comparing pros against amateurs.
BTW multitasking nowdays sucks. Ive seen games where top players forget too move units and they cant handle multiples attacks. Back in the days games with players in their pick such as Life or Inno where on other lvl of multitasking. I remember soulkey and life dissambling maru only with lings and mutas.
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EPT
