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Northern Ireland27358 Posts
On October 29 2019 23:49 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 23:43 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 29 2019 23:21 Nakajin wrote:
Skill level is most likely higher than it ever was, but it's also lower than it could have been if the team houses environment had lasted. Sounds reasonable to me. I do miss the teams and the rivalries and the extra tournaments and all for sure, I’m rather torn on if on balance I think the team house system is a good thing, for a variety of reasons. Aside from some concerns as to over-practicing and whatnot, it just raises the bar to entering the pro game to such a level that it’s extremely difficult for anyone to get in the door. It’s always been more prominent in discussion regarding foreigners competing but it’s increasingly more and more apparent that it completely stifled the emergence of new Korean talent who weren’t on Kespa teams for a good half decade. I think Proleague would be amazing in the current environment. A foreign team would actually be competitive compared to the EGTL experiment. Plus that would bring in tons of viewers.
I’d like to see such a tournament, say give 2/3 months of the year, have a draft or something and just clear the Premier tournaments for that period.
Ex-SKT, ex-KT etc, team foreigner heroes, would be great fun.
I love team leagues my main issue with the team houses were that they gave such a huge advantage that others couldn’t really replicate. If you made it a short term thing where teams gather up again and all practice together for a league it’d be awesome.
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On October 29 2019 23:46 youngjiddle wrote:
The people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who try to boot up Wings of Liberty games and talk about how great 6 worker start was, oh, and complain about there being no proleague.
You can talk shit about many things but dont shittalk 6 worker start bro. That was honestly an important thing for sc2.
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On October 29 2019 23:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 23:46 youngjiddle wrote:
The people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who try to boot up Wings of Liberty games and talk about how great 6 worker start was, oh, and complain about there being no proleague. You can talk shit about many things but dont shittalk 6 worker start bro. That was honestly an important thing for sc2.
Ok, I get that 6 worker start made an impact.
How about, the people who think the skill level is lower today are the same people who hail GSL as the greatest and only format for a starcraft tournament, they call out Serral for not playing in it, but also hypocritically call out other foreigners for playing in it an taking spots of Korean players.
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On October 29 2019 23:56 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 23:49 Moonerz wrote:On October 29 2019 23:43 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 29 2019 23:21 Nakajin wrote:
Skill level is most likely higher than it ever was, but it's also lower than it could have been if the team houses environment had lasted. Sounds reasonable to me. I do miss the teams and the rivalries and the extra tournaments and all for sure, I’m rather torn on if on balance I think the team house system is a good thing, for a variety of reasons. Aside from some concerns as to over-practicing and whatnot, it just raises the bar to entering the pro game to such a level that it’s extremely difficult for anyone to get in the door. It’s always been more prominent in discussion regarding foreigners competing but it’s increasingly more and more apparent that it completely stifled the emergence of new Korean talent who weren’t on Kespa teams for a good half decade. I think Proleague would be amazing in the current environment. A foreign team would actually be competitive compared to the EGTL experiment. Plus that would bring in tons of viewers. I’d like to see such a tournament, say give 2/3 months of the year, have a draft or something and just clear the Premier tournaments for that period. Ex-SKT, ex-KT etc, team foreigner heroes, would be great fun. I love team leagues my main issue with the team houses were that they gave such a huge advantage that others couldn’t really replicate. If you made it a short term thing where teams gather up again and all practice together for a league it’d be awesome.
Well, China IS actively trying to save SC2 with a team league
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On October 28 2019 04:23 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 04:01 Konage47 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:38 La1 wrote:On October 28 2019 03:03 Konage47 wrote:
love how the odds are stacked against Maru here compared to Serrals bracket. Most likely he will have to somehow beat rogue and dark, and face serral after showing him all his builds. putting on my tinfoil hat and saying brackets are rigged to make it serral favor. Most likely zvz in the round of four and up Maybe.. just maybe finishing top of your group meant you got an easier ro8 match.. Its hardly unfair, maru wasn't the highest ranked in wcs points and he didn't win his group.. only has himself to blame.. I hope he gets rolled.. I was just playing devil advocate to the bracket tinfoilers, but in all honestly the bottom bracket is extremely stacked. if Maru wins he would have to go through the best ZvTer, top 3 Zerg in Rogue that knows all his build orders, and then potentially face Serral that will see how he plays ZvT which is a huge disadvantage. If he somehow wins it I would consider him goat being that the meta is zerg favor and how the brackets are. I think Maru will be GOAT as long as he makes it to the finals. If he wins, he will be the clear GOAT as no one can keep making the argument that "he can't be GOAT because he's bad at weekenders" (while simultaneously believing Serral can become GOAT even though he has never played in Code S lol). For the record, I believe Serral can be GOAT without winning GSL but I'm just pointing out that if Maru can't be GOAT because he's weaker in weekender tournaments, then neither can Serral unless you believe that Serral winning GSLs in a counterfactual is almost as good as winning them in reality.
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him.
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On October 30 2019 02:18 ProFalseIdol wrote:
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him.
LoL?
Maru has won 1 Tournament out of 8 with half-foreigners in the last 2 years.
Katowice 2018 - 3/4th
WESG 2017 - 1st
GSL v the world 2018 - 3/4th
Katowice 2019 - 13/16th
WESG2018 - 3rd
GSL v the world 2019 - 9/16th
thats poor for a goat.
in the last 2 years innovation is also 2 for 6
GPC2019 s1 - 1st
WESG 2018 - 1st
he lost at ASUS ROG, katowice x2 and a gsl vs the world
Serral is 3 in 9 tournaments (so the same ratio)
GSL vs the world x2 (2018/2019)
Global finals - 1st
he lost, ASUS rog, kaotwice x2, wesg x2 and pyeongchang.
I wouldn't say that's a worse ratio. I think you have to look at serral as getting better in 2017 and is now the beast we know (since 2018). Hes clearly improved since his 2017 season
Innovation has clearly had more impressive career and is a hall of farmer but if serral wins worlds he would only be the second player to have 2 world championships and be the first player to go back to back in the history of SC2...
thats HOF material. even GOAT material.
to me, if you don't show up at worlds you can't even be in the conversation.
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On October 30 2019 03:49 La1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 02:18 ProFalseIdol wrote:
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him. LoL? Maru has won 1 Tournament out of 8 with half-foreigners in the last 2 years. Katowice 2018 - 3/4th WESG 2017 - 1st GSL v the world 2018 - 3/4th Katowice 2019 - 13/16th WESG2018 - 3rd GSL v the world 2019 - 9/16th thats poor for a goat. in the last 2 years innovation is also 2 for 6 GPC2019 s1 - 1st WESG 2018 - 1st he lost at ASUS ROG, katowice x2 and a gsl vs the world Serral is 3 in 9 tournaments (so the same ratio) GSL vs the world x2 (2018/2019) Global finals - 1st he lost, ASUS rog, kaotwice x2, wesg x2 and pyeongchang. I wouldn't say that's a worse ratio. I think you have to look at serral as getting better in 2017 and is now the beast we know (since 2018). Hes clearly improved since his 2017 season Innovation has clearly had more impressive career and is a hall of farmer but if serral wins worlds he would only be the second player to have 2 world championships and be the first player to go back to back in the history of SC2... thats HOF material. even GOAT material. to me, if you don't show up at worlds you can't even be in the conversation.
The difference is Maru has 2 starleagues pre-2017, tons of other high finishes, amazing proleague performances, and perhaps the most impressive thing about his career consistently being the last Terran standing during periods where Terran was weak. To be goat with a 2 year career you have to win literally everything which Serral hasn't done. Give him another year or two and he can enter the conversation.
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Northern Ireland27358 Posts
On October 30 2019 04:18 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 03:49 La1 wrote:On October 30 2019 02:18 ProFalseIdol wrote:
Serral has only won tournaments that have all-foreigners or half-foreigners. While losing to all other tournaments (IEM Katowice, WESG, ASUS, IEM PyeongChang).
Idk why would Serral ever be GOAT at this point? Greatest Hype certainly. He has the potential sure, but nothing to show for it yet. For "of all time", even INnoVation has by far a more impressive record than him. LoL? Maru has won 1 Tournament out of 8 with half-foreigners in the last 2 years. Katowice 2018 - 3/4th WESG 2017 - 1st GSL v the world 2018 - 3/4th Katowice 2019 - 13/16th WESG2018 - 3rd GSL v the world 2019 - 9/16th thats poor for a goat. in the last 2 years innovation is also 2 for 6 GPC2019 s1 - 1st WESG 2018 - 1st he lost at ASUS ROG, katowice x2 and a gsl vs the world Serral is 3 in 9 tournaments (so the same ratio) GSL vs the world x2 (2018/2019) Global finals - 1st he lost, ASUS rog, kaotwice x2, wesg x2 and pyeongchang. I wouldn't say that's a worse ratio. I think you have to look at serral as getting better in 2017 and is now the beast we know (since 2018). Hes clearly improved since his 2017 season Innovation has clearly had more impressive career and is a hall of farmer but if serral wins worlds he would only be the second player to have 2 world championships and be the first player to go back to back in the history of SC2... thats HOF material. even GOAT material. to me, if you don't show up at worlds you can't even be in the conversation. The difference is Maru has 2 starleagues pre-2017, tons of other high finishes, amazing proleague performances, and perhaps the most impressive thing about his career consistently being the last Terran standing during periods where Terran was weak. To be goat with a 2 year career you have to win literally everything which Serral hasn't done. Give him another year or two and he can enter the conversation.
True but then even if he does that people will claim the skill level is lower than the Kespa era or whatever.
Unless directly comparing for the purposes of coming up with a rank or whatever, Serral’s a great player, Maru is a great player etc.
I’m not sure why people expend so much energy focusing on the real or perceived deficiencies of either player to ridiculous degrees when they are patently two of the best to have ever played the game.
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Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
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19533 Posts
On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
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Northern Ireland27358 Posts
On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs.
His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently.
His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
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19533 Posts
On October 30 2019 11:30 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs. His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently. His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure
Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing.
Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
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United States33699 Posts
On October 30 2019 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 11:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs. His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently. His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Pre/Post 2015 tournament accounting is pretty hard because of region lock 
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On October 30 2019 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 11:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs. His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently. His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier.
Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get to practice vs Koreans make his achievements even more impressing? Think what could happen if his level of practice was as high as the Koreans? So he comes from lower competition and is still better than the Koreans, that's gotta impress you, since you probably only think beating Koreans is impressive, as opposed to consistently beating almost all other foreigners for 2 years!
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But how would serral do with a broken back?
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On October 30 2019 13:22 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 11:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs. His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently. His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier. Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get to practice vs Koreans make his achievements even more impressing? Think what could happen if his level of practice was as high as the Koreans? So he comes from lower competition and is still better than the Koreans, that's gotta impress you, since you probably only think beating Koreans is impressive, as opposed to consistently beating almost all other foreigners for 2 years!
True but if he would regularly practice vs koreans they'd also have a better chance at figuring him out so it goes both ways.
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too much zerg for my taste. still hoping for good games.
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19533 Posts
On October 30 2019 12:14 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 11:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs. His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently. His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier. Pre/Post 2015 tournament accounting is pretty hard because of region lock
And it was never easy to begin with  The Taeja arguments were more fun than the serral ones though
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Northern Ireland27358 Posts
On October 31 2019 00:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 12:14 Waxangel wrote:On October 30 2019 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 11:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 30 2019 11:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years. in 7 years, 8 of them being wcs. His premier finals stat is rather inflated for sure, although before Neeb no foreigner has stomped foreigners so consistently. His most impressive stat to me by far is having the highest vKorean win percentage of any player iirc. Made more impressive by him generally only playing the better end of the Korean pool given the structure of today’s tournament structure Oh for sure, he achieved great things in the last 2 years without a doubt. It's still worth showing that "13 premier finals" gets way less impressive when over half of them are in a circuit where most of the best players are missing. Or to say it differently, premier =/= premier. Pre/Post 2015 tournament accounting is pretty hard because of region lock And it was never easy to begin with The Taeja arguments were more fun than the serral ones though
Oh god you had to remind me of those, having PTSD-inducing flashbacks again after so long free of them
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On October 30 2019 06:58 Dave4 wrote:
Serral has been in 13 premier finals in 2 years.
Shows Serral's Greatness
Back to back Blizzcon makes him the undisputed SC2 Goat and no one will be even close to him
Tier A WCS vs Tier B GSL
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EPT
