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I came in here to echo a lot of what people are saying. I feel like the chargelot change shouldve went through, given how much they cost and how little they need to be micro'd.
Warp Prisms and chargelots regularly end games at every level of every matchup, yet not one of those units costs ANY gas (if you dont count the cost of charge). No other race has that in this game. No other race has a drop option that costs 0 gas. No other race can use said 0 gas drop unit to instantly build an entire production cycle in any location on the map.
I see the need for chargelots in a protoss army, they are essential for tanking for all the wonderful splash damage options a protoss player can entertain. I just dont see a need for zealots to also do a fair amount of damage on top of all that - especially since they require absolutely no micro. CAN you even micro a zealot? The world may never know.
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A decent set of changes. Now maybe late game will be a genuinely viable option in PvZ and hopefully mass infestor dies a death while also making infestors a desirable caster to have a few of in the late game.
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On August 07 2019 06:56 MrFreeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 06:41 Shuffleblade wrote:
Yes, zergs do have one massable powerful unit that creates free units at the cost of energy which can be used as a panic button if anything goes wrong. That is the exact reason they are toning infested terrans down, it is too powerful. I don't like the BCs as they are either and believe they are OP as well but at least they have counters. Infestors have 0 counters. Yes, that is true for Master and GM, but when I'm forced to counter A-move army with micro intensive army, it should either have clear advantage or not be as difficult. I think that if casting making it so that casting Fungal also unburrows the Infestor that is casting it would help, while not messing pro play, as player with good micro can do this already with just his/her skill.
I don't really follow your logic here, you complain about turtle terran and A-move army?
If we are actually talking about a turtle terran their A-move shouldn't be an issue because they are turtling? Yes if zerg doesn't harass, takes bases aggressively and let a turtle terran reach max supply in BCs without getting damage done or a bigger bank that zerg has a problem but its not due to balance.
Turtle terran is rarely a problem and not due to balance, if you need the current infestors to stay at 50% vs terran you need to work on something on your side.
Also really interesting to have a zerg complain about unfairness in micro intensity, TvZ is the opposite is basically every other scenario and has been the opposite for all of SC2. (with the exception of the WM, when I think about it every time a zerg has to micro more than terran its unfair but its always been fair how terran needs to split their asses off)
In my opinion its not as straight up amove as you make it sounds, with neural terran needs to be exceptionally careful with amoving a BC army. If terran does a mistake its GG, if zerg does its panic button time and regroup. I think the nerf is needed.
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On August 07 2019 03:30 BRAT_OK wrote:TvP still broken. Its looks like only one guy works in balance team and he playing as protoss, and he very bad at playing. Good job Activision 
Is this a joke? Protoss got gutted in this "balance" patch despite no sign of Protoss being too strong.
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At least Blizzard is trying with some changes in the right direction... But I'm afraid it is not enough. There are way more impactful core issues with every matchup that are just patched up and not entirely addressed. In LotV both Terran and Protoss got buffs to be able to deal with mass roach ravager attacks, which was really bad because it did not deal with any issues. The dominance of the composition in ZvZ for the entire lifespan of SC2 should have been a clue that it is not healthy, but I guess people got used to ZvZ being a roach fest and don't complain anymore.
Also, the real problem in TvP is the insane early game greed Protoss can get away with, because with the way Terran production operates, Terran has no way to punish a greedy Protoss. For interested, watch Rotterdam's stream sometimes, Protoss can go twilight, robo, 3rd base and double forge all off just 1 gateway and still hold any commited aggression with good micro and shield batteries. That is insane. Meanwhile, Terran cannot make a 3rd cc before 6th minute mark without risking to die to Protoss' NON-COMMITED aggression (i.e. 3 gate blink with 3rd base and double forge behind). The problem is that Terran production needs addons to be effective, and the addon build time has not been adjusted when the starting economy was buffed from 6 to 12 workers.
And the most broken thing that may not yet seem too impactful is the lategame strength of Zerg in ZvX matchup. The problem here is that Zerg can make 10 broodlords, 15 infestors (70 supply), a few queens and a spore forest and basically slow push into any position. They don't even need any anti air other than spores anymore because the broodlords zone away all the ground units, while the infestors can neural/fungal the air units for the spores to kill them. With viper abduct, things become even worse. The offenders here are both the infestor and the spore. The strength of the infestors was what brought us the gglord winfestor era, and as it seems right now we're heading for the gglord winfestor era 2.0. The spore is problematic, because its role is not healthy for the game. Static defense SHOULD-NEVER-BE-ABLE-TO-SLOW-PUSH.It says it in the title: static DEFENSE. The problem that caused that is that Zerg doesn't have reliable anti-air in the early game, so Blizzard compensated with supreme anti-air firepower in the lategame instead of fixing the lackluster early game. But was that a good idea?
Also, what I think contributed to Terran's downfall in recent times is the ease with which the Zerg and Protoss can scout what Terran is doing. There is no surprise factor anymore, Protoss flies a hallucination in your base at 3-4 minutes, can also scout with adepts, speed buffed observers and phoenixes, while the Zerg has speedlings and overlords (with speed upgrade buffed). This is imo the most impactful in TvZ, since Zerg is the race that can, if scouting properly, deal with anything. The only option for Terran to hide what he's doing is by proxying, but even then, factory proxies are currently useless, and if the starport is proxied, the other race sees that it's missing in the main base and can easily deal with liberators/banshees/BCs/medivac drops, since all of them require a similar response. You can't go wrong with mass queens as Zerg and Protoss can just go blink and observers.
And just to throw this in: in my opinion, ravagers should be redesigned to be a reliable early game anti-air option instead of a ground siege unit. The strength of mass roach should also be addressed, before we get 2014 flashbacks of 40 drone mass roach all ins and maybe then, the overpowered units of Terran and Protoss can be toned down for the sake of the game.
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On August 07 2019 07:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 03:30 BRAT_OK wrote:TvP still broken. Its looks like only one guy works in balance team and he playing as protoss, and he very bad at playing. Good job Activision Is this a joke? Protoss got gutted in this "balance" patch despite no sign of Protoss being too strong.
Your use of the term "gutted" while trying to accuse someone's argument of being a "joke" is fatally ironic.
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Honestly this is pretty bad -
BC Mech vs Z is already very strong - as Maru displayed at WCG - now you are going to have better EMP vs infestors and 45% less damage on the main tool Z uses to fight BCs? How is this a viable option?
Understand the intent to make ZvP late game more even - but until we see Zerg dealing with BC mech evenly with the current infestors and ghosts - how can we think its a good idea to literally take half the DPS away from infested terrans which are the main tool to counter BCs while also buffing ghosts?
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soooo, after these changes im still gonna wake up from zealot nightmares in a sweat soaked bed?
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On August 07 2019 07:33 DomeGetta wrote:
Honestly this is pretty bad -
BC Mech vs Z is already very strong - as Maru displayed at WCG - now you are going to have better EMP vs infestors and 45% less damage on the main tool Z uses to fight BCs? How is this a viable option?
To quote Zergs from 2016, don't let them get there.
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You just have to research the ability. And this was the reasoning for zealots not being nerfed? Well I guess we will see more a move Protoss into Terrans who are all sieged up and well defended. This is stupid. I will continue to play Protoss I guess. Nobody uses emp anyway.
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On August 07 2019 07:33 DomeGetta wrote:
Honestly this is pretty bad -
BC Mech vs Z is already very strong - as Maru displayed at WCG - now you are going to have better EMP vs infestors and 45% less damage on the main tool Z uses to fight BCs? How is this a viable option?
Understand the intent to make ZvP late game more even - but until we see Zerg dealing with BC mech evenly with the current infestors and ghosts - how can we think its a good idea to literally take half the DPS away from infested terrans which are the main tool to counter BCs while also buffing ghosts?
Maru crushing Reynor says literally nothing about the ZvT matchup. If those games weren't such one sided stomps the only thing it would show is how broken Zerg is. Reynor does just fine against EU terrans (aka the players on his skill level). Dark has been doing just fine against that style from Maru on ladder. The huge majority of Terrans including other pros struggle with Z in lategame. Pro zergs like solar have admitted the infestor broodlord comp is currently unbeatable in a direct fight for Terran. Something this drastic was definitely needed.
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On August 07 2019 07:35 Rusty253 wrote:
You just have to research the ability. And this was the reasoning for zealots not being nerfed? Well I guess we will see more a move Protoss into Terrans who are all sieged up and well defended. This is stupid. I will continue to play Protoss I guess. Nobody uses emp anyway.
The reasoning came down to how integral the zealot is to all three of the matchups and so changing it midyear would be too large of a change considering how would it would change almost all of Protoss' compositions. I wouldn't be surprised to see some iteration of the charge nerf come in at the end of the year. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a move towards the stalker being the backbone of the protoss army as it is a far more microable unit.
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On August 07 2019 07:16 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 06:56 MrFreeman wrote:On August 07 2019 06:41 Shuffleblade wrote:
Yes, zergs do have one massable powerful unit that creates free units at the cost of energy which can be used as a panic button if anything goes wrong. That is the exact reason they are toning infested terrans down, it is too powerful. I don't like the BCs as they are either and believe they are OP as well but at least they have counters. Infestors have 0 counters. Yes, that is true for Master and GM, but when I'm forced to counter A-move army with micro intensive army, it should either have clear advantage or not be as difficult. I think that if casting making it so that casting Fungal also unburrows the Infestor that is casting it would help, while not messing pro play, as player with good micro can do this already with just his/her skill. I don't really follow your logic here, you complain about turtle terran and A-move army? If we are actually talking about a turtle terran their A-move shouldn't be an issue because they are turtling? Yes if zerg doesn't harass, takes bases aggressively and let a turtle terran reach max supply in BCs without getting damage done or a bigger bank that zerg has a problem but its not due to balance. Turtle terran is rarely a problem and not due to balance, if you need the current infestors to stay at 50% vs terran you need to work on something on your side. Also really interesting to have a zerg complain about unfairness in micro intensity, TvZ is the opposite is basically every other scenario and has been the opposite for all of SC2. (with the exception of the WM, when I think about it every time a zerg has to micro more than terran its unfair but its always been fair how terran needs to split their asses off) In my opinion its not as straight up amove as you make it sounds, with neural terran needs to be exceptionally careful with amoving a BC army. If terran does a mistake its GG, if zerg does its panic button time and regroup. I think the nerf is needed.
As a terran, I can get a decent number of Tanks and Libs to reliably defend my 3/4 base setup while I'm building the brawn of my army, usually BC at first to harass and hopefully even make them build Corruptors and then thors, cos they don't need to be microed and trade super well against everything Zerg has. It works well, is easy to do and only thing I'm worried about are the infestors. When they all have to unburrow in order to cast fungal, it is really easy for me to snipe them with tanks, as I already have them on their own control group.
As for micro intensity, it is a lot about unit fragility. As a zerg, I need to always be on my toes, Hydras, Infestor, Roaches, Lings and Banes can die extremely quickly when I look away, corruptors are better, but it is so easy to overmake them and BL transformation takes soo long, plus BL aren't great against Thors w/o micro and can be outmanoeuvred (would really love if they had the ability to transform between corruptor and BL like Vikings and hellbats can  ).
Meanwhile, as a terran, I can easily leave my army in the middle of the map without that much worry, I just siege my tanks with the control group and can be pretty sure, that my stuff will not die before I can get back to it. I can siege libs quite fast with rapid fire and stuff like thors, hellbats or Vikings fights pretty well even when I'm not microing them.
I really miss the days when terrans were going bio, those were wild, violent games. This turtle into big units isn't much fun.
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On August 07 2019 03:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
Interesting, happy about the terran changes, hope the protoss nerfs aren't too much and feels kinda iffy cheapening zergs already poweful scouting tool. Worried overlord speed and perfects scouts will take over the meta.
there's no such thing as a perfect scout, scouting happens all game long. in LOTV zerg identifying the tech building is really never game over for terran or protoss unless it's a crazy aggressive proxy. builds like DT drop and battlecruiser rush are completely playable even when "perfect scouted." i dunno what the concern is
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Blizzard got scared and toned down the Protoss nerfs. Such a shame. TvP is still in trouble. Early game ZvP is still going to be allins.
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On August 07 2019 07:09 Z3nith wrote:
A decent set of changes. Now maybe late game will be a genuinely viable option in PvZ and hopefully mass infestor dies a death while also making infestors a desirable caster to have a few of in the late game.
i don't like mass infestors either, but now we're going toward no infestors.
honestly the design of infested terran is flawed:
they are fragile to begin with and usually don't even hatch with full hp, meaning they can't do much unless massed.
now that their damage is being nerfed quite hard they would have even less of an impact in low numbers.
as for the rest of the infestor abilities:
fungel damage is negligible on most units and usually available too late to help deal with BS tactical jump harass or immortal warp prism juggle, limiting it's usefulness.
neural parasite can be useful but it's hard to be cost efficient with it since the infestors quite often die rather fast while channeling it.
under this conditions, what role the infestor fulfill that the viper can't do better?
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Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
I don't know exactly what will the stim buff bring to the game(was it really needed?), but I am extremely worried about the state of lategame TvZ when to the legit infestor nerf we add that ghost upgrade(it's super cool but it might break the matchup).
P and Z changes seem on point, reverting those huge nerfs to Protoss was a good idea considering the race is not overperforming at the moment; I'd have personally toned down a little the recall nerf, the cooldown was increased of more than 50% of its current value.
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On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank
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Northern Ireland26119 Posts
I’m largely fine with these, nothing too radical as of yet but I feel radical changes should really be left until Blizzcon has passed.
PvZ is way better than a few months ago at least at the top level of play, and that was solely based on players adjusting things in that matchup. Still not quite there, but holding off from making major changes to the matchup seems to have been the right call in retrospect.
Chargelot change is such a huge change to PvT that, maybe it’s a good one, maybe it’s not. I tend to the latter, but either way that’s a huge thing to throw out before the culmination of your WCS series.
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On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank
How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once?
I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course.
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EPT
