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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 09 2019 08:19 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 08 2019 16:28 NExt wrote:
Is this going to mess up GSL Ro16? Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. It doesn't prove anything, but it certainly suggests it. I don't think anyone truly puts herO, PartinG, or Hurricane over TY or INno in terms of skill.
I don’t know why you wouldn’t, herO and Parting have won way more than TY in SC2
It’s really not the fault of Protoss players that Inno and TY have massively underperformed this year, although TY seems to be on an upward curve
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
It’s almost like herO has won 300k dollars, multiple tournaments and a Korean Starleague and might be good at the game or something.
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Great patch, wish we had this kind of transparency and communication when David Kim was in charge.
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Safe patch. I like it.
This thread is fillled with tears crying out Protoss imba. "Top 8 = defacto balance" give me a fucking break.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 08 2019 16:28 NExt wrote:
Is this going to mess up GSL Ro16? Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play.
Yeah, but if you keep rolling for 6 months you won't get heavy domination of smoe numbers like we've seen with Protoss, do you? 
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2019 Premier Tournaments
2019 WCS Winter Europe Winner: Reynor (Zerg) Runner-up: Serral (Zerg)
2019 WCS Winter Americas Winner: Neeb (Protoss) Runner-up: Scarlett (Zerg)
2019 Global SC2 League Season 1 Winner: Maru (Terran) Runner-up: Classic (Protoss)
IEM Season XIII - Katowice Winner: soO (Zerg) Runner-up: Stats (Protoss)
WESG Winner: Innovation (Terran) Runner-up: Serral (Zerg)
2019 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 Winner: Classic (Protoss) Runner-up: Gumiho (Terran)
2019 Global SC2 League Season 2 Winner: Dark (Zerg) Runner-up: Trap (Protoss)
2019 WCS Spring Winner: Serral (Zerg) Runner-up: Special (Terran)
Gold Professional Championship 2019 Season 1 Winner: Innovation (Terran) Runner-up: Scarlett (Zerg)
2019 WCS Summer Winner: Reynor (Zerg) Runner-up: Serral (Zerg)
Assembly Summer 2019 Winner: Stats (Protoss) Runner-up: Solar (Zerg)
Winners
Zerg: 5
Protoss: 3
Terran: 3
Runner-ups
Zerg: 6
Protoss: 3
Terran: 2
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On August 09 2019 16:06 deacon.frost wrote:Yeah, but if you keep rolling for 6 months you won't get heavy domination of smoe numbers like we've seen with Protoss, do you?
Besides the part that sort of protoss domination only exists in your imagination. Yeah, maybe they overperformed a bit in ONE (the last) GSL season and one or two Super tournaments. So what? That would be 3 out of 15+ tournaments in that timeframe.
As you can see very nicely in the posting of NinjaNight for all bigger tournaments in 2019.
And this is 2019, so you also can't say the strength of Zerg is only because of Serral, who for sure was completely dominating in 2018. Of course he is still strong, but not longer completely dominating.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On August 09 2019 17:13 JoFar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 16:06 deacon.frost wrote:Yeah, but if you keep rolling for 6 months you won't get heavy domination of smoe numbers like we've seen with Protoss, do you? Besides the part that sort of protoss domination only exists in your imagination. Yeah, maybe they overperformed a bit in ONE (the last) GSL season and one or two Super tournaments. So what? That would be 3 out of 15+ tournaments in that timeframe. As you can see very nicely in the posting of NinjaNight for all bigger tournaments in 2019. And this is 2019, so you also can't say the strength of Zerg is only because of Serral, who for sure was completely dominating in 2018. Of course he is still strong, but not longer completely dominating.
That's the issue when you split regions, we got the domination IN THE KOREA. Similarly Zergs are screwed only IN THE KOREA. Similarly Terran success is only IN THE KOREA. Then we need to talk if we want to balance around the top(Korea) or what to do, because if we take only the Korea, then you have heavy P favorism. At the same time if you take away from the overall results Korea than you have heavy T issues at WCS...
That's what many are saying, you can't look nowadays at the World as a whole because the two regions have different balance issues.
Edit let's have some fun, shall we?
(P/T/Z)
6/1/5 IEM
6/6/4 S1
8/4/4 S2
9/2/5 ST(7/1/0 for the first time in the history of Starcraft, not just SC2, this overcame even the BL infestor era)
6/6/4 S3
But hey, this is fine, nothing wrong, we obviously don't have more than 4 good Zergs because that's how many of them can get into RO16(RO12 of IEM + Serral). For years Zergs are the least represented race in Korean tournaments but it's all fine and dandy because Serral dominates players who are a league bellow his skill and thus overall numbers are fine.
(and that's just 2k19 numbers in Korean tourneys)
Edit2>
2018
6/5/5 S3 (uh, one more Zerg! oh the joy)
7/5/4 S2
7/5/4 S1
5/2/5 IEM Katowice(such high Terran representation)
5/5/6 ST2(into 4/2/2)
6/5/5 ST1(which resulted in quite balanced RO8, I'm shocked)
So we had a half year of 2k19 of Protoss dominance in Korea(while Dark won the Code S but overall we had Protoss dominance) but because it's not happening at WCS it's fine? Seriously? And in the long term Zergs in Korea are under represented but nobody cares, because Serral is winning, them Koreans bad. (similar case can be said against Terran and Maru)
Edit3> based on this numbers we can say - if you're a Terran, don't go to Katowice, it's not very friendly to Terrans, go WESG instead(didn't add it as the qualis are more saying than the tourney itself). If you want to be a good player in Korea, don't play Zerg, there are only 4 spots in Code S Ro16 
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But is it really a balance issue?
I mean, if there are just more very good protoss players in the KR region then zerg (and also Terran i think) players ... or more very good zerg players in EU then protoss or terran ... isn't it "normal" and balanced then, when you also have more of them in RO8?
Looking at KR for example ... Zerg ... you have Dark, soo, Rogue ... maybe Solar ... who are are good enough to can make it to Ro4 or even winning.
Terran ... Maru, Inno, TY, Gumiho ... maybe Fantasy, Cure ... a bit more at least
And Protoss ... Stats, Zest, Classic, Trap, Dear, hero, sOs ... maybe Patience and Parting ... there are just more good players of them.
But Top Players of each race can make it very far or of course win ... like Dark in Season 2 GSL. So i don't see Zerg screwed in Korea ...
Same in WCS ... can you say Zerg is overpowered, just because there are just more good players of them?
Plus the point players have their good times and their bad times. Look at Rogue ... not long ago he was clearly No. 1 within KR zergs ... but not much of him has been seen in the last months. But other Zerg Players like Dark and soo had huge successes ... so you for sure can't say "Rogue is bad because Zerg is bad now"
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On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play.
Wrong. If you role a 6 sided die 200 times and it hits 1 or 2 on 167 occasions, you have a broken die.
Blizzcon standings are over the tournament from the entire year. Your suggestion that if there is over performance of Protoss in one tournament is true. But since the Blizzcon standings are for the performance for the entire year, there is something wrong with the balance.
Want me to simplify this for you? Protoss has been over performing the entire year for Korea professional players and the Blizzcon standings support this assertion.
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On August 09 2019 19:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. Wrong. If you role a 6 sided die 200 times and it hits 1 or 2 on 167 occasions, you have a broken die. Blizzcon standings are over the tournament from the entire year. Your suggestion that if there is over performance of Protoss in one tournament is true. But since the Blizzcon standings are for the performance for the entire year, there is something wrong with the balance. Want me to simplify this for you? Protoss has been over performing the entire year for Korea professional players and the Blizzcon standings support this assertion.
Protoss have been overperforming for two months and the current WCS standings support this assertion.
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On August 09 2019 20:22 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 19:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. Wrong. If you role a 6 sided die 200 times and it hits 1 or 2 on 167 occasions, you have a broken die. Blizzcon standings are over the tournament from the entire year. Your suggestion that if there is over performance of Protoss in one tournament is true. But since the Blizzcon standings are for the performance for the entire year, there is something wrong with the balance. Want me to simplify this for you? Protoss has been over performing the entire year for Korea professional players and the Blizzcon standings support this assertion. Protoss have been overperforming for two months and the current WCS standings support this assertion.
2 months is a big exaggeration. It was ridiculous for 2 months to the point that even Toss players agreed. It has remained present for the entire year. Looking at it from the perspective of "who won" only you could say Protoss hasnt overperformed at all. But as we know "who won" is only 1 factor amongst many to consider..but we will always have players of X race holding onto whatever supports their arguement etc.
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On August 09 2019 21:33 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 20:22 Xain0n wrote:On August 09 2019 19:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. Wrong. If you role a 6 sided die 200 times and it hits 1 or 2 on 167 occasions, you have a broken die. Blizzcon standings are over the tournament from the entire year. Your suggestion that if there is over performance of Protoss in one tournament is true. But since the Blizzcon standings are for the performance for the entire year, there is something wrong with the balance. Want me to simplify this for you? Protoss has been over performing the entire year for Korea professional players and the Blizzcon standings support this assertion. Protoss have been overperforming for two months and the current WCS standings support this assertion. 2 months is a big exaggeration. It was ridiculous for 2 months to the point that even Toss players agreed. It has remained present for the entire year. Looking at it from the perspective of "who won" only you could say Protoss hasnt overperformed at all. But as we know "who won" is only 1 factor amongst many to consider..but we will always have players of X race holding onto whatever supports their arguement etc.
Protoss didn't overperform in WCS(the whole season), at IEM Katowice(Terran underperformed) and at WESG(no korean Protoss was there); they didn't overperform at HSC XIX and ASUS Rog.
In GSL, Protoss didn't overperform in Code S S1 and are not overperforming in the current season; they did, however, overperform at Super Tournament I(which they won like they have always been doing in the last edition, but their overrepresentation was notable) and in Code S S2 before the finals(since a Zerg won it).
From mid April to mid June, I count two months.
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Sad they dropped the charge nerf. Most pressing issue with protoss right now IMO.
Stim timing which will make mech in TvT utterly terrible and will probably induce very abusive timings in the other matchups.
I also really don't see why overlord speed needed a buff. Overlord speed has been constantly buffed since WOL.
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On August 09 2019 08:26 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 08 2019 16:28 NExt wrote:
Is this going to mess up GSL Ro16? Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. While it doesn't prove anything your metaphor is flat out wrong.
you missed the point. the dice is balanced and should result in 1-2 33% of the time meaning we should get 8/3 rolls that are 1-2. If the game is perfectly balanced we should get Protoss representation 33% of the time. Therefore if the game is balanced we should have 8/3 Protoss players. However, if you roll the dice in reality you'll have plenty of times when its 1-2 5 out of 8 times.
Therefore, the single fact presented by the person whose post i replied... doesn't prove the game is IMBA at the top level.
Now, if you add new facts that changes things. The only fact presented by the poster proves nothing. A deeper analysis is required.
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On August 09 2019 21:41 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 21:33 DomeGetta wrote:On August 09 2019 20:22 Xain0n wrote:On August 09 2019 19:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. Wrong. If you role a 6 sided die 200 times and it hits 1 or 2 on 167 occasions, you have a broken die. Blizzcon standings are over the tournament from the entire year. Your suggestion that if there is over performance of Protoss in one tournament is true. But since the Blizzcon standings are for the performance for the entire year, there is something wrong with the balance. Want me to simplify this for you? Protoss has been over performing the entire year for Korea professional players and the Blizzcon standings support this assertion. Protoss have been overperforming for two months and the current WCS standings support this assertion. 2 months is a big exaggeration. It was ridiculous for 2 months to the point that even Toss players agreed. It has remained present for the entire year. Looking at it from the perspective of "who won" only you could say Protoss hasnt overperformed at all. But as we know "who won" is only 1 factor amongst many to consider..but we will always have players of X race holding onto whatever supports their arguement etc. Protoss didn't overperform in WCS(the whole season), at IEM Katowice(Terran underperformed) and at WESG(no korean Protoss was there); they didn't overperform at HSC XIX and ASUS Rog. In GSL, Protoss didn't overperform in Code S S1 and are not overperforming in the current season; they did, however, overperform at Super Tournament I(which they won like they have always been doing in the last edition, but their overrepresentation was notable) and in Code S S2 before the finals(since a Zerg won it). From mid April to mid June, I count two months.
Yo my friend!
So protoss did not overperform code S season 2 since a zerg won it and they didn't overperform in Asus rog which they won because... you don't think they did?
Just to be clear, you understand the fact that protoss is OP in korea but not in WCS right? So lets take a look at how our protoss guests from korea did at Asus rog compared to other races, specifically to the korean zergs and terrans.
Stats, herO, Zest and Dear goes on a rampage, the only series losses in PvT or PvZ are innovation taking herO in second groupstage (herO gets revenge in the rubber match) and Zest losing 0-2 to Serral in group 2 and later on 0-3 to Solar. Besides Inno going 2-2 with herO and Zest being weak in PvZ the korean protoss seemed unstoppable. You know what happened? Stats vs herO and Zest vs Dear in RO8. Therefore PvP knocked out the korean protosses, Stats won the tournament Zest is Zest (in PvZ) and both herO and Dear got knocked out by their fellow korean protoss.
Imagine the RO8 would have been Dear vs Time, Stats vs Serral, Zest vs Gumiho and herO vs Solar. We could have had 4 protoss in RO4, because of the draw that didn't happen. Does that mean since the draw made the protoss champions knock each other out protoss isn't OP? Because luck is not on their side? lol
Every single korean protoss reach RO8 until they met eachother, how about the other races? Bomber, out in first groupstage didn't win a map (against showtime and Bly). Armani, out in first groupstage against Ptitdrogo and Snute. Taeja, Out in first groupstage defeated by Heromarine twice. soO out in second groupstage against Solar and herO. Innovation out in second groupstage against Solar and herO. Ragnarok, out in second groupstage defeated by Showtime and Time.
What did Asus rog show us, that the only korean protoss out of 4 to get knocked out by a foreigner or a zerg or terran was Zest vs Solar. Sure the best of the best from korean in other races wasn't there but we did have Gumiho, Innovation, soO and Solar (that did really well).
Asus rog show the same indications, korean protoss op.
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On August 09 2019 22:56 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 21:41 Xain0n wrote:On August 09 2019 21:33 DomeGetta wrote:On August 09 2019 20:22 Xain0n wrote:On August 09 2019 19:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. Wrong. If you role a 6 sided die 200 times and it hits 1 or 2 on 167 occasions, you have a broken die. Blizzcon standings are over the tournament from the entire year. Your suggestion that if there is over performance of Protoss in one tournament is true. But since the Blizzcon standings are for the performance for the entire year, there is something wrong with the balance. Want me to simplify this for you? Protoss has been over performing the entire year for Korea professional players and the Blizzcon standings support this assertion. Protoss have been overperforming for two months and the current WCS standings support this assertion. 2 months is a big exaggeration. It was ridiculous for 2 months to the point that even Toss players agreed. It has remained present for the entire year. Looking at it from the perspective of "who won" only you could say Protoss hasnt overperformed at all. But as we know "who won" is only 1 factor amongst many to consider..but we will always have players of X race holding onto whatever supports their arguement etc. Protoss didn't overperform in WCS(the whole season), at IEM Katowice(Terran underperformed) and at WESG(no korean Protoss was there); they didn't overperform at HSC XIX and ASUS Rog. In GSL, Protoss didn't overperform in Code S S1 and are not overperforming in the current season; they did, however, overperform at Super Tournament I(which they won like they have always been doing in the last edition, but their overrepresentation was notable) and in Code S S2 before the finals(since a Zerg won it). From mid April to mid June, I count two months. Yo my friend! So protoss did not overperform code S season 2 since a zerg won it and they didn't overperform in Asus rog which they won because... you don't think they did? Just to be clear, you understand the fact that protoss is OP in korea but not in WCS right? So lets take a look at how our protoss guests from korea did at Asus rog compared to other races, specifically to the korean zergs and terrans. Stats, herO, Zest and Dear goes on a rampage, the only series losses in PvT or PvZ are innovation taking herO in second groupstage (herO gets revenge in the rubber match) and Zest losing 0-2 to Serral in group 2 and later on 0-3 to Solar. Besides Inno going 2-2 with herO and Zest being weak in PvZ the korean protoss seemed unstoppable. You know what happened? Stats vs herO and Zest vs Dear in RO8. Therefore PvP knocked out the korean protosses, Stats won the tournament Zest is Zest (in PvZ) and both herO and Dear got knocked out by their fellow korean protoss. Imagine the RO8 would have been Dear vs Time, Stats vs Serral, Zest vs Gumiho and herO vs Solar. We could have had 4 protoss in RO4, because of the draw that didn't happen. Does that mean since the draw made the protoss champions knock each other out protoss isn't OP? Because luck is not on their side? lol Every single korean protoss reach RO8 until they met eachother, how about the other races? Bomber, out in first groupstage didn't win a map (against showtime and Bly). Armani, out in first groupstage against Ptitdrogo and Snute. Taeja, Out in first groupstage defeated by Heromarine twice. soO out in second groupstage against Solar and herO. Innovation out in second groupstage against Solar and herO. Ragnarok, out in second groupstage defeated by Showtime and Time. What did Asus rog show us, that the only korean protoss out of 4 to get knocked out by a foreigner or a zerg or terran was Zest vs Solar. Sure the best of the best from korean in other races wasn't there but we did have Gumiho, Innovation, soO and Solar (that did really well). Asus rog show the same indications, korean protoss op.
Read better, I wrote that Protoss overperformed in Code S S2. And it's not like Protoss are op in GSL, there are simply more top Protoss player left than other races; when Patience and Hurricane look like Championship contender then get back to their usual performance(like they did earlier this year), we can agree that Protoss were doing better than usual; since the regression happened without any balance patch being released, it's likely they were just ahead of the meta and not effectively overpowered.
As for ASUS Rog, look at the lineup and tell me that Protoss weren't expected to do well; they were fewer in number but higher in average quality; we were also one game from having a ZvZ final.
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On August 09 2019 11:43 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 08:19 Fango wrote:On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 08 2019 16:28 NExt wrote:
Is this going to mess up GSL Ro16? Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. It doesn't prove anything, but it certainly suggests it. I don't think anyone truly puts herO, PartinG, or Hurricane over TY or INno in terms of skill. I don’t know why you wouldn’t, herO and Parting have won way more than TY in SC2 It’s really not the fault of Protoss players that Inno and TY have massively underperformed this year, although TY seems to be on an upward curve
As of the last year or two? They certainly haven't looked better than TY. Not in the slightest except if you include herOs peak at the end of 2017.
Its not the fault of protoss players or course, just funny how a bunch of then miraculously got better after a series of patches while every terran got worse.
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France13018 Posts
On August 09 2019 21:44 JackONeill wrote:
Sad they dropped the charge nerf. Most pressing issue with protoss right now IMO.
Stim timing which will make mech in TvT utterly terrible and will probably induce very abusive timings in the other matchups.
I also really don't see why overlord speed needed a buff. Overlord speed has been constantly buffed since WOL.
Yeah with the new stim timing I bet we'll see a lot more 2-3 rax reapers openers into timing pushes / fakeouts in TvZ.
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People really need to stop using tournament wins by race to justify their views on balance. Not only is it a terribly small dataset, you would also have to factor in individuals.
Like if you looked at GSL wins per race since 2017 it would look like:
Terran: 6
Zerg: 1
Protoss: 1
But if you looked at GSL winners by race in the last 2 years it would look like:
Terran: 3
Zerg: 1
Protoss: 1
It's still not even, but with only a pool of 5 players, it's hardly definitive evidence for balance.
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EPT
