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ThunderJunk
United States648 Posts
The huge radius increase in EMP is not to be underestimated here. Will definitely make lategame TvP more doable. All in all, I'm a fan of the way this panned out. I'd still rather not be locked in to going carriers as my only lategame option against zerg, but maybe someone will figure out an awesome ground game that I'm not seeing... It's just when Z gets broodlords, you really need tempests and I don't see any drawback to just getting carriers after that. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Stimpack upgrade research duration decreased from 121 seconds to 100 seconds New upgrade: Enhanced Shockwaves: Increases the radius of the Ghost’s EMP Round from 1.5 to 2. Cost: 150/150. Research time: 79 seconds. Nexus Strategic Recall cooldown increased from 85 to 130 seconds. Overlord/Overseer Pneumatized Carapace upgrade research cost decreased from 100/100 to 75/75 Warp Prism pick up range decreased from 6 to 5. I'm behind these changes. The rest are a little superfluous. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 08 2019 13:11 ThunderJunk wrote: These changes seem good to me. The huge radius increase in EMP is not to be underestimated here. Will definitely make lategame TvP more doable. All in all, I'm a fan of the way this panned out. I'd still rather not be locked in to going carriers as my only lategame option against zerg, but maybe someone will figure out an awesome ground game that I'm not seeing... It's just when Z gets broodlords, you really need tempests and I don't see any drawback to just getting carriers after that. i mean, you can just get the tempests and then do a timing attack with ground + tempest? what units do you want to counter lategame zerg with? storm/archons are already necessary to deal with mass corruptors, and immortals don't shoot up. do you want an upgrade that makes stalkers have 10 range? mass void ray was a thing in HOTS and it was way more boring and stupid than carrier play | ||
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
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xelnaga_empire
620 Posts
On August 08 2019 16:28 NExt wrote: Is this going to mess up GSL Ro16? Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote: Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. Stop putting needless weight on the current korean blizzcon standing. Yes it proves protoss has out performed all other races in GSL, yes it is a worrisome statistic in regards to balance in GSL tournament format but that is all. It doesn't mean blizzcon is "messed up", what do you even mean with that statement. In regars to having as many zergs or terrans as possible? A perfect race distribution from korea and wcs is not really important, the important thing is that the best players are there and its good if it has an overall even race distribution. Since protoss has had PvT advantage and has the edge over zerg in GSL style prep tournaments this result is not weird and it is unlikely to translate into a protoss dominated blizzcon. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On August 08 2019 07:15 Shuffleblade wrote: Did you read the post? Yes, for the last 8 months terran hasn't actually been the most micro intensive race (still the most macro intensive race btw). That doesn't change that for remaining 90% of SC2 lifespan terran has been clearly the most micro intensive and there have never been any zergs around saying "Its too easy to micro muta/ling/bling vs terran whom have it so hard, please balance team make it fair and harder for us to micro" yet when a period dawns when zerg in one late game scenario experience the same discrepencies in micro intensity that terran has had for 90% of the games history in most phases of the game then its a problem. Its hilarious. Yeah I read the post - And I agree with the fact that Terran has been the hardest race to micro since sc2 inception - up until the post 2018 blizzcon patch. Being the most difficult race to micro has an implied trade-off with being the race with the highest skill cap - and I'm fine with this existing in sc2. The part of the post that I think is ridiculous is that he states right in the post that we are at quite a balanced lategame meta and yet thinks there is no problem with nerfing one sides counter unit dps by 50% lmao - What I'm saying is that now that Terran is more like Protoss and Zerg we can't use the same trade-off logic we previously did - if it took maru level bio mechanics to execute the BC or Battle-Mech styles we see today then it's probably OK to nerf the other side of a "quite balanced" late game meta - but in the current state it's absolutely not - it's completely illogical. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
On August 09 2019 01:25 DomeGetta wrote: And I agree with the fact that Terran has been the hardest race to micro since sc2 inception - up until the post 2018 blizzcon patch. Being the most difficult race to micro has an implied trade-off with being the race with the highest skill cap - and I'm fine with this existing in sc2. The part of the post that I think is ridiculous is that he states right in the post that we are at quite a balanced lategame meta and yet thinks there is no problem with nerfing one sides counter unit dps by 50% lmao - What I'm saying is that now that Terran is more like Protoss and Zerg we can't use the same trade-off logic we previously did - if it took maru level bio mechanics to execute the BC or Battle-Mech styles we see today then it's probably OK to nerf the other side of a "quite balanced" late game meta - but in the current state it's absolutely not - it's completely illogical. I've just accepted the fact that my league ranking as a Terran player will be a little bit lower than it should be. its not that big of a deal... its not like the game is my full time job. The top level of the game must be very well balanced. At my level of play ( Tier 1 Diamond ) the game only needs to be somewhat balanced. IMO, really cool and interesting diversity amongst all 3 races is much more important than perfect balance amongst players who are below GM level. The overwhelming vast majority of 3+ race, diverse race RTS games are no where near as well balanced as SC2. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On August 08 2019 17:19 Shuffleblade wrote: Stop putting needless weight on the current korean blizzcon standing. Yes it proves protoss has out performed all other races in GSL, yes it is a worrisome statistic in regards to balance in GSL tournament format but that is all. It doesn't mean blizzcon is "messed up", what do you even mean with that statement. In regars to having as many zergs or terrans as possible? A perfect race distribution from korea and wcs is not really important, the important thing is that the best players are there and its good if it has an overall even race distribution. Since protoss has had PvT advantage and has the edge over zerg in GSL style prep tournaments this result is not weird and it is unlikely to translate into a protoss dominated blizzcon. I think you sort of agreed with him here while trying to disagree. Yes - the important thing is that the best players are there - Typically we don't see 62 percent of the best players from the same race - it's a leading indicator that there may be or have been a balance problem. Kr is the top performing region in the world for this game - so the top performing players racial distribution is actually a really good place to gather intell from on this subject. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 09 2019 01:25 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah I read the post - And I agree with the fact that Terran has been the hardest race to micro since sc2 inception - up until the post 2018 blizzcon patch. Being the most difficult race to micro has an implied trade-off with being the race with the highest skill cap - and I'm fine with this existing in sc2. The part of the post that I think is ridiculous is that he states right in the post that we are at quite a balanced lategame meta and yet thinks there is no problem with nerfing one sides counter unit dps by 50% lmao - What I'm saying is that now that Terran is more like Protoss and Zerg we can't use the same trade-off logic we previously did - if it took maru level bio mechanics to execute the BC or Battle-Mech styles we see today then it's probably OK to nerf the other side of a "quite balanced" late game meta - but in the current state it's absolutely not - it's completely illogical. I get your point but its not only about "balanced meta" or not, there is also the question of fun playing the game, healthiness for the game and overall power of a strategy. A matchup can be balanced but when one side is relying heavily on one strat that is too poweful, not fun to play against/with or not good for the game a nerf might be needed anyway. If mass infestors is the only way for zerg to stay relevant and keep 50ish winrate vs late game terran then you are right but we don't know if that is true, I don't believe that to be true. Infestors is the current strategy and because it is very powerful no one is using other strategies, it is too powerful. Personally I prefer when one race is favored late game because that usually means more intense and hectic early/mid game fights and less lategame snoozefests that aren't fun to watch. Even if terrans lategame becomes slightly favored after this that doesn't mean the matchup isn't balanced, the "don't let them get there" is an old classic it has just never been said before about terran. Edit. I consider current infestors as bad for the game has hots SH, it slows the game down and makes it boring and the units are very poweful. Nerf them, its better for everyone, players and spectators. | ||
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Justinian
United Kingdom158 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote: Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. It doesn't prove anything, but it certainly suggests it. I don't think anyone truly puts herO, PartinG, or Hurricane over TY or INno in terms of skill. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 09 2019 05:46 Shuffleblade wrote: If mass infestors is the only way for zerg to stay relevant and keep 50ish winrate vs late game terran then you are right but we don't know if that is true, I don't believe that to be true. Thing is its not even like mass infestor is keeping them at a 50% winrate. I'd love to have stats of race win rates specifically in lategame, but I would wager on z being up much more than that. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: When you roll a 6-sided dice 8 times... sometimes it hits on 1 or 2 on 5 occasions. 5 out of 8 players being Protoss doesn't prove the game favours Protoss at the top level of play. While it doesn't prove anything your metaphor is flat out wrong. First thing it insinuates sc2 result is 100% based on luck, you roll a die and you see how it goes. Using the exact same argument I could say that there is a chance a player rolls the same number 10 times in a row, Serral winning multiple championships doesn't prove its because he is good. Flukes happen and sometimes multiple times, you can use this argument in any context. Like the science says, sure you've done the experiment a million times but are you sure that if you tried once more you wouldn't get a different result? No science is never sure, its almost always only very very likely. Lastly your metaphor is based on the assumption the wcs standings are based on one result, one roll of a die. It is not, it is based on 2 currently and in the end 3 different tournaments. A "fluke" is not enough to get into top 8, you need multiple flukes in a row, interesting that all players from the same race happen to make these incredibly unlikely flukes in a row. Maybe their dice are different than the other players huh | ||
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Muliphein
49 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23758 Posts
On August 09 2019 05:05 DomeGetta wrote: I think you sort of agreed with him here while trying to disagree. Yes - the important thing is that the best players are there - Typically we don't see 62 percent of the best players from the same race - it's a leading indicator that there may be or have been a balance problem. Kr is the top performing region in the world for this game - so the top performing players racial distribution is actually a really good place to gather intell from on this subject. It’s certainly a good starting point for sure. With other factors of play. Between military service, a small player pool, the destruction of the team house system and a lack of new players coming through, it’s super benefitted Protoss. Protoss haven’t lost a real solid player since Rain to military service, almost all of the historically best players of Protoss are still active. Terrans have lost what ByuN, Taeja, Flash, Dream and others in the last few years. Zerg lost a certain unnamed fellow amongst other. All these losses are manageable if there’s a pipeline of new talent to come and replace them, but post Kespa breakup this just hasn’t happened. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 09 2019 08:19 Fango wrote: It doesn't prove anything, but it certainly suggests it. I don't think anyone truly puts herO, PartinG, or Hurricane over TY or INno in terms of skill. You don't get WCS points because you are more skilled; also, why do you underrate herO so much? Why are we still speaking of that? Protoss in GSL effieciently capitalized in the two months when they were ahead of the meta. And I will keep repeating that we have had four Protoss qualifying to BlizzCon from GSL in 2016 and 2018 already. | ||
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
On August 08 2019 17:00 xelnaga_empire wrote: Blizzcon is already messed up. 5 out of 8 players for Korea at Blizzcon are Protoss so far. This could be one of the worst Blizzcons ever, in terms of race representation for Korea. My bad. I should've been more clear. I meant game quality not race balance. Pro-gamers will be amidst a new meta half way through a tournament. | ||
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