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Northern Ireland26790 Posts
On August 07 2019 22:08 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 13:04 Zzoram wrote:On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Pros get to comment on proposed balance changes and they don’t share your concerns. Also, Maru is just better than Reynor at late game. Serral wiped the floor with Special’s BC battlemech and swept him 4-0 just like Maru swept Reynor. Serral was asked about those WCG games and his response was Reynor sucks at late game. If we saw Maru beat Serral 4-0 with BCs, then maybe we should be concerned about their power. LMAO. How can you contradict your own logic in 1 post? Marus games vs Reynor dont matter bc Maru is better at late game but Serrals games vs Special do? The gap between Serral (top zerg) and Special (maybe top 10 Terran?) is far larger than the gap between Maru (top Terran) and Reynor (easily top 5 Zerg). When we see the best Terrans losing to the best zergs with this style your point will be valid but we have not. And now we are taking half the damage away from the literal way you saw Serral and Reynor try to deal with this style. So even if your hypothesis is that its balanced now bc the "better player" will win how does a 50 percent nerf make any sense whatsoever?
Mass BCs are completely broken taken in isolation, they’re kept in check by Infestor counter measures, or being exceptionally difficult to mass and not die in vP
I’m not sure if nerfing ITs/fixing the ignore armour bug will see a big swing in the matchup, hopefully not. In most games I’ve seen Zergs have pounced on BCs before they hit critical mass, Serral has used fungal/bile combos rather than IT spam etc to good effect.
We’ll have to see. I personally hate the unit because it’s bloody ridiculous outside of novelty, so really don’t want to be seeing mass BCs every other lategame.
I don’t like that you can’t dodge Yamato no matter how far you get away once it starts, at least by distance. Sure it’s not a super common occurrence but in those games where players split off small BC hitsquads to hit outlying bases you can’t engage them without taking guaranteed losses.
If you could dance in and force them to waste Yamato shots you could more reliably defend small numbers of BCs with relatively small numbers of units, and whittle them down gradually.
Come to think of it can you dodge a Yamato shot with burrowing/going into a Nydus/being picked up by a prism or medivac or via a recall?
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On August 07 2019 04:15 xelnaga_empire wrote:Thank you Blizzard. As of now, there is only one Korean Terran (Maru) out of 8 Korean players in contention to qualify for the Blizzcon finals. And there are only 2 Zerg in Korea in the top 8: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/standings/And yet there are 5 Protoss players that are in contention to qualify for Blizzcon. 5 Protoss players out of 8 total in Korea for Blizzcon, This is the state of the game in 2019.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe right now most of the best players in Korea play toss? I mean the two best players in Europe are Zerg. You can argue that there isnt a toss in the top 5 players in Europe right now but you aren't complaining about that. Get out of here with that mess.
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On August 07 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once? I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course.
I would be sad but laugh nonetheless. That would be hilarious indeed.
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On August 07 2019 23:42 ImSquanchnHere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 04:15 xelnaga_empire wrote:Thank you Blizzard. As of now, there is only one Korean Terran (Maru) out of 8 Korean players in contention to qualify for the Blizzcon finals. And there are only 2 Zerg in Korea in the top 8: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/standings/And yet there are 5 Protoss players that are in contention to qualify for Blizzcon. 5 Protoss players out of 8 total in Korea for Blizzcon, This is the state of the game in 2019. Did it ever occur to you that maybe right now most of the best players in Korea play toss? I mean the two best players in Europe are Zerg. You can argue that there isnt a toss in the top 5 players in Europe right now but you aren't complaining about that. Get out of here with that mess.
Have it occured to you that if a multitude of players of the same race suddenly becomes better than "all" other players that that could possibly be related to game balance?
I'm not saying its one way or the other but you come across as very close minded in your post.
As the situation is at the moment one of the differences between korea and the rest of the world is the structure of the tournaments. GSL is a prep based tournament, terrans have an edge in that style because of how their race and their builds work, zerg has a disadvantage due to their race and protoss is pretty middle of the road. Therefore if PvT gets unbalanced its not weird that it would effect GSL greatly because the structure of the tournament favores terrans who gets knocked out by protoss and zergs are in general slightly unfavored.
Weekender style tournaments favor zerg when the prep time is limited and therefore zerg dominating there is not weird plus that there are so many great zerg players in europe.
Therefore if you look deeper it makes sense that it is like that, that zerg dominate the weekender scene and protoss the GSL scene if TvP is protoss favored.
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On August 07 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once? I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course.
Dark and Maru have played eachother on stream a lot over the last couple weeks, and Dark has smacked him every single time (with Maru going for BCs in most games). He's made infestors look just as busted as in ZvP
As far as BCs being broken, people need to realise Reynor's ZvT is just not good enough to beat the best in the world.
If Maru 4-0'd him with regular mech or bio there would be no complaints. It's stupid how people complain about balance based on what games look like instead of which race is actually winning.
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Northern Ireland26790 Posts
On August 08 2019 00:13 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 23:42 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On August 07 2019 04:15 xelnaga_empire wrote:Thank you Blizzard. As of now, there is only one Korean Terran (Maru) out of 8 Korean players in contention to qualify for the Blizzcon finals. And there are only 2 Zerg in Korea in the top 8: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/standings/And yet there are 5 Protoss players that are in contention to qualify for Blizzcon. 5 Protoss players out of 8 total in Korea for Blizzcon, This is the state of the game in 2019. Did it ever occur to you that maybe right now most of the best players in Korea play toss? I mean the two best players in Europe are Zerg. You can argue that there isnt a toss in the top 5 players in Europe right now but you aren't complaining about that. Get out of here with that mess. Have it occured to you that if a multitude of players of the same race suddenly becomes better than "all" other players that that could possibly be related to game balance?I'm not saying its one way or the other but you come across as very close minded in your post. As the situation is at the moment one of the differences between korea and the rest of the world is the structure of the tournaments. GSL is a prep based tournament, terrans have an edge in that style because of how their race and their builds work, zerg has a disadvantage due to their race and protoss is pretty middle of the road. Therefore if PvT gets unbalanced its not weird that it would effect GSL greatly because the structure of the tournament favores terrans who gets knocked out by protoss and zergs are in general slightly unfavored. Weekender style tournaments favor zerg when the prep time is limited and therefore zerg dominating there is not weird plus that there are so many great zerg players in europe. Therefore if you look deeper it makes sense that it is like that, that zerg dominate the weekender scene and protoss the GSL scene if TvP is protoss favored.
When did this happen though? Judging from before and now a fair distance after, Super Tournament was the anomaly rather than indicative of that particular trend.
Terrans aren’t exclusively being knocked out by Protoss anyway, but there seems to be this perception that that is the case. Perhaps a player like Patience prepared better last season because Ro16 is close to his ceiling, others were complacent, people had an off day or whatever.
Either way last season Innovation by virtue of having better TvT eliminated the obvious best TvPer in the world.
Even with that happening, Inno still knocked Stats out in the Ro16, and his series with Trap who is amongst the best PvTers in the world went to the deciding rubber.
Special’s recent good GSL runs have been on the back of beating Protoss players. He complains most about Protoss but it definitely seems to be his strongest matchup.
Protoss last season lost Zest and sOs in Ro32, and Stats and Dear in Ro16, and as a race were largely fine. Terran lost TY and Maru Ro32, GuMiho in Ro16.
I’m just counting champions and people with pedigree here, other players are still very good players obviously. If Terrans lose even one or two of those players it’s a disaster for the race, Protoss have champions to burn.
Every single best Protoss of all time (in my opinion and also going by Najakin’s competition) is still playing in GSL today with the exception of Rain and MC.
Classic going to military sucks for all sorts of reasons, but Protoss as a whole has that much depth that the race is still fine in GSL. Take away Maru or Inno from Terran at this point and it’s a really big blow.
Realistically I don’t see how Protoss won’t be the best performing race in GSL without players falling off a lot, or other players or new talent stepping up.
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Northern Ireland26790 Posts
On August 08 2019 00:26 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once? I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course. Dark and Maru have played eachother on stream a lot over the last couple weeks, and Dark has smacked him every single time (with Maru going for BCs in most games). He's made infestors look just as busted as in ZvP As far as BCs being broken, people need to realise Reynor's ZvT is just not good enough to beat the best in the world. If Maru 4-0'd him with regular mech or bio there would be no complaints. It's stupid how people complain about balance based on what games look like instead of which race is actually winning.
Does Dark ever stream or is this from Maru’s stream? (That I always miss and there’s no VoDs for  )
Dark is a god with multiple spellcaster lategame armies, that don’t look flashy but are hard as fuck to control (well, I find it harder than just microing bio or whatever)
I don’t think BCs are currently broken, I’m wary about nerfing their countermeasures too much so that their brokenness is brought out and exposed.
They can offensively teleport, are incredibly hard to kill especially with full armour upgrades, have Yamato and can be repaired back to full effectiveness pretty quickly.
Which in isolation is insane but with countermeasures being strong enough, or the ‘don’t let them get there’ actually being reasonable they’re fine.
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On August 08 2019 00:49 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 00:13 Shuffleblade wrote:On August 07 2019 23:42 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On August 07 2019 04:15 xelnaga_empire wrote:Thank you Blizzard. As of now, there is only one Korean Terran (Maru) out of 8 Korean players in contention to qualify for the Blizzcon finals. And there are only 2 Zerg in Korea in the top 8: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/standings/And yet there are 5 Protoss players that are in contention to qualify for Blizzcon. 5 Protoss players out of 8 total in Korea for Blizzcon, This is the state of the game in 2019. Did it ever occur to you that maybe right now most of the best players in Korea play toss? I mean the two best players in Europe are Zerg. You can argue that there isnt a toss in the top 5 players in Europe right now but you aren't complaining about that. Get out of here with that mess. Have it occured to you that if a multitude of players of the same race suddenly becomes better than "all" other players that that could possibly be related to game balance?I'm not saying its one way or the other but you come across as very close minded in your post. As the situation is at the moment one of the differences between korea and the rest of the world is the structure of the tournaments. GSL is a prep based tournament, terrans have an edge in that style because of how their race and their builds work, zerg has a disadvantage due to their race and protoss is pretty middle of the road. Therefore if PvT gets unbalanced its not weird that it would effect GSL greatly because the structure of the tournament favores terrans who gets knocked out by protoss and zergs are in general slightly unfavored. Weekender style tournaments favor zerg when the prep time is limited and therefore zerg dominating there is not weird plus that there are so many great zerg players in europe. Therefore if you look deeper it makes sense that it is like that, that zerg dominate the weekender scene and protoss the GSL scene if TvP is protoss favored. When did this happen though? Judging from before and now a fair distance after, Super Tournament was the anomaly rather than indicative of that particular trend. Terrans aren’t exclusively being knocked out by Protoss anyway, but there seems to be this perception that that is the case. Perhaps a player like Patience prepared better last season because Ro16 is close to his ceiling, others were complacent, people had an off day or whatever. Either way last season Innovation by virtue of having better TvT eliminated the obvious best TvPer in the world. Even with that happening, Inno still knocked Stats out in the Ro16, and his series with Trap who is amongst the best PvTers in the world went to the deciding rubber. Special’s recent good GSL runs have been on the back of beating Protoss players. He complains most about Protoss but it definitely seems to be his strongest matchup. Protoss last season lost Zest and sOs in Ro32, and Stats and Dear in Ro16, and as a race were largely fine. Terran lost TY and Maru Ro32, GuMiho in Ro16. I’m just counting champions and people with pedigree here, other players are still very good players obviously. If Terrans lose even one or two of those players it’s a disaster for the race, Protoss have champions to burn. Every single best Protoss of all time (in my opinion and also going by Najakin’s competition) is still playing in GSL today with the exception of Rain and MC. Classic going to military sucks for all sorts of reasons, but Protoss as a whole has that much depth that the race is still fine in GSL. Take away Maru or Inno from Terran at this point and it’s a really big blow. Realistically I don’t see how Protoss won’t be the best performing race in GSL without players falling off a lot, or other players or new talent stepping up.
The Twilight Council will be soon greatly affected by korean army enlistments(I presume) since, after Classic, the next in line are Stats, herO and Zest (as well as soO, Gumiho and some others), all born in 1992.
Also, Infestors proclaimed to be the bane of Terran because Dark beats Maru in ladder games? Let's see what happens if they play against at GSL vs The World...
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On August 08 2019 01:00 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 00:26 Fango wrote:On August 07 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once? I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course. Dark and Maru have played eachother on stream a lot over the last couple weeks, and Dark has smacked him every single time (with Maru going for BCs in most games). He's made infestors look just as busted as in ZvP As far as BCs being broken, people need to realise Reynor's ZvT is just not good enough to beat the best in the world. If Maru 4-0'd him with regular mech or bio there would be no complaints. It's stupid how people complain about balance based on what games look like instead of which race is actually winning. Does Dark ever stream or is this from Maru’s stream? (That I always miss and there’s no VoDs for ) Dark is a god with multiple spellcaster lategame armies, that don’t look flashy but are hard as fuck to control (well, I find it harder than just microing bio or whatever) I don’t think BCs are currently broken, I’m wary about nerfing their countermeasures too much so that their brokenness is brought out and exposed. They can offensively teleport, are incredibly hard to kill especially with full armour upgrades, have Yamato and can be repaired back to full effectiveness pretty quickly. Which in isolation is insane but with countermeasures being strong enough, or the ‘don’t let them get there’ actually being reasonable they’re fine.
Yeah the point here is not that BCs are broken in the current state - the point is that every Zerg we have seen beat this style (which is not a huge sample since Maru really first unveiled this specific style at WCG) heavily relies on infestors and infested terrans. The way special used them vs Serral is not close to what Maru did vs. Reynor mass expanding behind the early aggression and comboing them with 20 ranged liberators. The point is that if you take half the damage away from the IT's in what is arguably a relatively balanced dynamic you are nuts to think it's not going to become imbalanced. Just that nerf alone is enough - and on top of giving the literal unit that is made to counter infestors another buff with emp radius. Both of the changes are targeted for other matchups as it's clearly been stated in the multiple updates - IT strength vs carriers and emp buff vs Protoss. It's very clear that they didn't consider how heavily this will throw TvZ late game off - which I'm not saying right now is a problem - but am certain will become one if they don't add compensatory BC nerf.
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Honestly like these changes. Balancing 3 asymmetric races is incredibly hard and I think they are doing a really good job. I like that they are tweaking less and less in major patches. At least to me, it seemed like they used to nerf things into the ground a bit too hard.
Also, was wondering if making infestors 3 supply instead of 2 or lowering total energy were reasonable nerfs instead of the weapon speed reduction (but including the armor bug). I feel like infestors in small numbers are a very reasonable unit, and its when they are massed that they become a problem. Because it seems to me like nerfing their strength directly might make them too weak to BCs, and if you pay close enough attention to this game you'd know thats the only answer Zerg have against BCs.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 07 2019 23:24 burnturn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 17:56 deacon.frost wrote:On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016. A full Korean line up tournament is nowadays less than a foreigner tournament where many top Koreans are missing? Am I missing a hidden joke? Watch. Who. Won. The. Damn. GSL. Super. Tournaments. Oh my God, Protoss won the Super Tournaments, they win so much. Out of the 27 tournaments in the past two years, Protoss has won... five. Three ST's, ASUS ROG, and the WCS America that's the equivalent of the NA qualifiers of a normal WCS event.
I didn't say that, I replied to the thing that Stats won something since 2016. Stats himself won 2018 ST1  It's plainly not true, you can't based the discussion on the premise protoss didn't win anything from 2016 when they won. We can discuss different views, but then we're at the fact that out of 4 Code S finals Maru won, he won 3 against Protoss players. Stats was 2nd at Blizzcon and at GSL vs TW. Like, don't get me wrong, I would love to see some Protoss champs, but they were getting many 2nd places which wasn't that bad. In the mean time Zerg wasn't getting 2nd places at all... (edit> obviously in Korea, that's why I often mention the issue of splitting regions)
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On August 07 2019 13:04 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Pros get to comment on proposed balance changes and they don’t share your concerns. Also, Maru is just better than Reynor at late game. Serral wiped the floor with Special’s BC battlemech and swept him 4-0 just like Maru swept Reynor. Serral was asked about those WCG games and his response was Reynor sucks at late game. If we saw Maru beat Serral 4-0 with BCs, then maybe we should be concerned about their power.
Pros aren't the only ones playing the game. Pros can manage to control Infestors and Vipers, all the while sniping air with corruptor ball jabs w/o moving them into pack of marines/Thors, all the while launching SH wave, flanking and having small counter attack.
Us average players can handle one caster tops and maybe a flank that hits at somewhat reasonable time.
And even at pro level, Nukes are still crazy strong, so I think the very late game at pro level might be slightly T favoured now (it was slightly Z favoured b4 imo).
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Finally Blizzard understands that Toss aint as good as all those whining terrans say. Nonetheless the T buff is needed and the Z nerf aswell. Think this, together with the P changes, can work fine.
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On August 08 2019 02:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 23:24 burnturn wrote:On August 07 2019 17:56 deacon.frost wrote:On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016. A full Korean line up tournament is nowadays less than a foreigner tournament where many top Koreans are missing? Am I missing a hidden joke? Watch. Who. Won. The. Damn. GSL. Super. Tournaments. Oh my God, Protoss won the Super Tournaments, they win so much. Out of the 27 tournaments in the past two years, Protoss has won... five. Three ST's, ASUS ROG, and the WCS America that's the equivalent of the NA qualifiers of a normal WCS event. I didn't say that, I replied to the thing that Stats won something since 2016. Stats himself won 2018 ST1 It's plainly not true, you can't based the discussion on the premise protoss didn't win anything from 2016 when they won. We can discuss different views, but then we're at the fact that out of 4 Code S finals Maru won, he won 3 against Protoss players. Stats was 2nd at Blizzcon and at GSL vs TW. Like, don't get me wrong, I would love to see some Protoss champs, but they were getting many 2nd places which wasn't that bad. In the mean time Zerg wasn't getting 2nd places at all... (edit> obviously in Korea, that's why I often mention the issue of splitting regions)
yeah, Z doesnt have 2nd places cuz currently the alway get FIRST :D
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 08 2019 02:35 rasi86 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 02:11 deacon.frost wrote:On August 07 2019 23:24 burnturn wrote:On August 07 2019 17:56 deacon.frost wrote:On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016. A full Korean line up tournament is nowadays less than a foreigner tournament where many top Koreans are missing? Am I missing a hidden joke? Watch. Who. Won. The. Damn. GSL. Super. Tournaments. Oh my God, Protoss won the Super Tournaments, they win so much. Out of the 27 tournaments in the past two years, Protoss has won... five. Three ST's, ASUS ROG, and the WCS America that's the equivalent of the NA qualifiers of a normal WCS event. I didn't say that, I replied to the thing that Stats won something since 2016. Stats himself won 2018 ST1 It's plainly not true, you can't based the discussion on the premise protoss didn't win anything from 2016 when they won. We can discuss different views, but then we're at the fact that out of 4 Code S finals Maru won, he won 3 against Protoss players. Stats was 2nd at Blizzcon and at GSL vs TW. Like, don't get me wrong, I would love to see some Protoss champs, but they were getting many 2nd places which wasn't that bad. In the mean time Zerg wasn't getting 2nd places at all... (edit> obviously in Korea, that's why I often mention the issue of splitting regions) yeah, Z doesnt have 2nd places cuz currently the alway get FIRST :D
In Korea? Interesting view on things considering how long it was without a (Korean) Zerg winning a Korean tournaments
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On August 08 2019 02:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 02:35 rasi86 wrote:On August 08 2019 02:11 deacon.frost wrote:On August 07 2019 23:24 burnturn wrote:On August 07 2019 17:56 deacon.frost wrote:On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016. A full Korean line up tournament is nowadays less than a foreigner tournament where many top Koreans are missing? Am I missing a hidden joke? Watch. Who. Won. The. Damn. GSL. Super. Tournaments. Oh my God, Protoss won the Super Tournaments, they win so much. Out of the 27 tournaments in the past two years, Protoss has won... five. Three ST's, ASUS ROG, and the WCS America that's the equivalent of the NA qualifiers of a normal WCS event. I didn't say that, I replied to the thing that Stats won something since 2016. Stats himself won 2018 ST1 It's plainly not true, you can't based the discussion on the premise protoss didn't win anything from 2016 when they won. We can discuss different views, but then we're at the fact that out of 4 Code S finals Maru won, he won 3 against Protoss players. Stats was 2nd at Blizzcon and at GSL vs TW. Like, don't get me wrong, I would love to see some Protoss champs, but they were getting many 2nd places which wasn't that bad. In the mean time Zerg wasn't getting 2nd places at all... (edit> obviously in Korea, that's why I often mention the issue of splitting regions) yeah, Z doesnt have 2nd places cuz currently the alway get FIRST :D In Korea? Interesting view on things considering how long it was without a (Korean) Zerg winning a Korean tournaments
Ah, might have missed the last sentence, my fault
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On August 07 2019 04:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Real men stim pack without a medivac. Its going to be fun inventing new stim pack timing pushes with these changes. I'm glad they kept the Zealot strong. The way Blizzard discusses this I think Zealot drops combined with a round of Zealot warp-ins is considered extremely powerful. I'm glad they nerfed this by modifying the Warp Prism rather than weakening the Zealot. I hope the Zealot remains as strong as possible. Disclaimer: I play 60% as Random and 40% as Terran.
I agree I'm interested to see what the stim buff will bring. I'm also a bit worried though.
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On August 08 2019 01:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Because it seems to me like nerfing their strength directly might make them too weak to BCs, and if you pay close enough attention to this game you'd know thats the only answer Zerg have against BCs.
agreed. BCs are currently what carriers used to be: completely broken against both of the other two races if you ever get the time and money to mass them. Yamato needs to cost energy again
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On August 08 2019 01:00 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 00:26 Fango wrote:On August 07 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once? I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course. Dark and Maru have played eachother on stream a lot over the last couple weeks, and Dark has smacked him every single time (with Maru going for BCs in most games). He's made infestors look just as busted as in ZvP As far as BCs being broken, people need to realise Reynor's ZvT is just not good enough to beat the best in the world. If Maru 4-0'd him with regular mech or bio there would be no complaints. It's stupid how people complain about balance based on what games look like instead of which race is actually winning. Does Dark ever stream or is this from Maru’s stream? (That I always miss and there’s no VoDs for ) Dark is a god with multiple spellcaster lategame armies, that don’t look flashy but are hard as fuck to control (well, I find it harder than just microing bio or whatever)
Dark usually streams once a week or so (although vods are behind a subwall). Maru less often but he did a lot in the run up to GSL vs the world. Both were at 7 - 7.1K in the games I saw.
Either way Dark was smashing Maru's BC builds pretty damn hard. Either by going fast corruptor/roach aggression and overwhelming him, or by taking it to a split map scenario and making infestors look busted. Obviously ladder games don't always carry over to tournaments, but after seeing that I'd bet on Dark to take Maru in a series right now. Which also means smashing every terran by default.
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On August 08 2019 01:13 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2019 01:00 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 08 2019 00:26 Fango wrote:On August 07 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:On August 07 2019 09:14 brickrd wrote:On August 07 2019 09:12 Xain0n wrote:
Terran players complaining while they only got buffs, I'm not surprised.
terran players won't be happy until they automatically win the game for building 1 tank How hilarious would it be if TvZ becomes broken and Dark can't get out of the group he built so accurately for once? I hope I'm just overestimating the changes, of course. Dark and Maru have played eachother on stream a lot over the last couple weeks, and Dark has smacked him every single time (with Maru going for BCs in most games). He's made infestors look just as busted as in ZvP As far as BCs being broken, people need to realise Reynor's ZvT is just not good enough to beat the best in the world. If Maru 4-0'd him with regular mech or bio there would be no complaints. It's stupid how people complain about balance based on what games look like instead of which race is actually winning. Does Dark ever stream or is this from Maru’s stream? (That I always miss and there’s no VoDs for ) Dark is a god with multiple spellcaster lategame armies, that don’t look flashy but are hard as fuck to control (well, I find it harder than just microing bio or whatever) I don’t think BCs are currently broken, I’m wary about nerfing their countermeasures too much so that their brokenness is brought out and exposed. They can offensively teleport, are incredibly hard to kill especially with full armour upgrades, have Yamato and can be repaired back to full effectiveness pretty quickly. Which in isolation is insane but with countermeasures being strong enough, or the ‘don’t let them get there’ actually being reasonable they’re fine. Yeah the point here is not that BCs are broken in the current state - the point is that every Zerg we have seen beat this style (which is not a huge sample since Maru really first unveiled this specific style at WCG) heavily relies on infestors and infested terrans. The way special used them vs Serral is not close to what Maru did vs. Reynor mass expanding behind the early aggression and comboing them with 20 ranged liberators. The point is that if you take half the damage away from the IT's in what is arguably a relatively balanced dynamic you are nuts to think it's not going to become imbalanced. Just that nerf alone is enough - and on top of giving the literal unit that is made to counter infestors another buff with emp radius. Both of the changes are targeted for other matchups as it's clearly been stated in the multiple updates - IT strength vs carriers and emp buff vs Protoss. It's very clear that they didn't consider how heavily this will throw TvZ late game off - which I'm not saying right now is a problem - but am certain will become one if they don't add compensatory BC nerf.
I agree that a compensatory BC nerf might be needed but the dynamic of infestors are not balanced or healthy for the game. At the moment you can compare infestors to the SH of hots, its a unit that can periodically throw out free units with high dps. Don't forget IT can be used in conjunction with fungle (its kind of insane both those spells are on the same unit) and with abduct. Meaning there are pretty solid ways of getting a use out of the slow free units with great dps. IT were never designed to be used as a main army that is just as bad design as hots SH.
IT were designed to be used as an harass tool, a way to zone during engagements or as a "oh shit my infestors lack mana for the other spells and there is a battle right now button". That IT are being used as a main army means it needs to be nerfed period and the damage is the right way to go because that is why its being used that way. Infested terrans are still good to zone, cover retreat or harass a mineral line even if the damage is nerfed (if you have 3-5 infestors as intended).
Multiple posters comment on the ghost buff and how ghosts are a counter to infestors and this nerf and buff to the counter can be too much, it is not. Ghosts are not a counter to infestors because of EMP, I would even say ghosts aren't a counter but that is only half true. If Z doesn't have BLs then yes ghosts steady targeting counter infestors but not because of EMP, EMP barely matters against infestors since Z can just back off and regen the mana. The only way the emp effect that particular matchup is in the viper vs ghost dance if that is needed, that its easier for a terran to preempt that a viper will try to abduct and emp if the area is slightly bigger.
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EPT
