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On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is.
Haven't seen IT used vs BC in any bigger tournament lately only vs Carriers. But i've seen a lot BCs getting neuroed and rekt by Corruptors afterwars. And Ghosts might have been buffed but considering how hard it is to land a good EMP in lategame I don't see that as a big problem.
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The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016.
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I love seeing all the Terrans whining again despite the fact that there has been only one Protoss title in the last two years. You should really be focusing on Zerg Late Game. It’s too strong for Protoss for sure and probably Terran - there’s hardly any answers there.
To quote Rotti, “Terran has become a spoiled child when they don’t get their way.”
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016.
A full Korean line up tournament is nowadays less than a foreigner tournament where many top Koreans are missing? Am I missing a hidden joke?
Watch. Who. Won. The. Damn. GSL. Super. Tournaments.
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On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac.
I found the flaw in your reasoning.
Aligulac treats every match as though they are an equal match as the next match.
Korean winrates are lower because the level of competition is higher. Put any top tier foreign pro into a series of Korean tournaments and watch their winrates and aligulac scores plummet.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 07 2019 18:11 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac. I found the flaw in your reasoning. Aligulac treats every match as though they are an equal match as the next match. Korean winrates are lower because the level of competition is higher. Put any top tier foreign pro into a series of Korean tournaments and watch their winrates and aligulac scores plummet.
Also because the scenes are split and the skillset is different we see different issues in Korea and in WCS. e.g. Terrans seem fine-ish in the Code S while they struggle everywhere else. If you scratch Code S suddenly you have a huge Terran crisis. But how does Code S helps WCS Terrans? (except mjr Special) A big Zerg dominance in WCS, we wouldn't say that even in our wildest dreams about Korea, would we? etc.
So Aligulac watching over both leagues isn't much helpful.
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France12912 Posts
On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is.
Thankfully a 4 GSL back to back to back to back winner can beat a 16-17yo foreigner zerg, that doesn’t indicate that his comp was broken, especially since zergs do very fine vs that against same skill competition.
See the Reynor Special game in last WCS, if anything it indicates Terran need help against broodlord infestor.
Edit: @poster_above:
How is 1/8 Terran at BlizzCon fine-ish from a code S perspective?
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On August 07 2019 18:40 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Thankfully a 4 GSL back to back to back to back winner can beat a 16-17yo foreigner zerg, that doesn’t indicate that his comp was broken, especially since zergs do very fine vs that against same skill competition. See the Reynor Special game in last WCS, if anything it indicates Terran need help against broodlord infestor. Edit: @poster_above: How is 1/8 Terran at BlizzCon fine-ish from a code S perspective?
Inno slumping, GuMi slumping, TY slumping for the first half of the year. Military Terrans not up to the task (yet?)
Meanwhile Protoss players playing really well (Trap, Dear)
Dunno. I don't think it is that much drama as some make it seem
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On August 07 2019 18:40 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Thankfully a 4 GSL back to back to back to back winner can beat a 16-17yo foreigner zerg, that doesn’t indicate that his comp was broken, especially since zergs do very fine vs that against same skill competition. See the Reynor Special game in last WCS, if anything it indicates Terran need help against broodlord infestor. Edit: @poster_above: How is 1/8 Terran at BlizzCon fine-ish from a code S perspective?
One Terran and two Zerg...it's just that in Korea, Protoss had a couple of months in which they seemed super strong and they amassed the results that granted the points they currently have in GSL standings; no balance patch was released, their strategies were figured out and now Protoss do not ever appear overpowered anymore to anyone but whiners. Terran are performing fine in Code S in Season 3.
Terran, unlike Protoss, already had all the weapons to deal with infestors; since infested terrans are getting nerfed, I see no reasons to buff ghosts(while buffing carriers is more than needed).
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France12912 Posts
On August 07 2019 17:39 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I love seeing all the Terrans whining again despite the fact that there has been only one Protoss title in the last two years. You should really be focusing on Zerg Late Game. It’s too strong for Protoss for sure and probably Terran - there’s hardly any answers there.
To quote Rotti, “Terran has become a spoiled child when they don’t get their way.”
Last year Maru won so much tournaments yet Protoss won more money than terran. So it’s the other way around actually.
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I don't understand, so many people post about whining terrans. Yet I see almost no whining terran in the thread?
Are you guys just joining the thread, not even reading the posts and taking for granted terrans are whining? o_o
I like the patch, especially for TvP, agree that IT needed a nerf but I do think that BCs are also a bit OP and should be if not nerfed closely watched.
That is the only thing I'm worried about with this patch that BCs will be too strong in TvZ but either way IT should be nerfed, if zerg needs that crutch to survive BCs the crutch should be taken away and either nerf BCs or buff something else in the zerg arsenal that can help vs BCs.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 07 2019 18:40 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Thankfully a 4 GSL back to back to back to back winner can beat a 16-17yo foreigner zerg, that doesn’t indicate that his comp was broken, especially since zergs do very fine vs that against same skill competition. See the Reynor Special game in last WCS, if anything it indicates Terran need help against broodlord infestor. Edit: @poster_above: How is 1/8 Terran at BlizzCon fine-ish from a code S perspective?
uhm, they're there and compete and can get quite high in the competition? They can't do that as good in any other tournament besides WESG. As you just pointed out Blizzcon is NOT GSL Code S tournament. So surprise, bad Terran representation. This just proves my point, once you remove the Code S from the statistics the "Terran is fine" is no longer valid.
Edit> The major issue I have with this is the fact that Blzizard took so long for any action that Blizzcon is already hard to reach many players because Protoss was "slightly stronger" for more than 6 months...
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On August 07 2019 19:10 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't understand, so many people post about whining terrans. Yet I see almost no whining terran in the thread?
Are you guys just joining the thread, not even reading the posts and taking for granted terrans are whining? o_o
I like the patch, especially for TvP, agree that IT needed a nerf but I do think that BCs are also a bit OP and should be if not nerfed closely watched.
That is the only thing I'm worried about with this patch that BCs will be too strong in TvZ but either way IT should be nerfed, if zerg needs that crutch to survive BCs the crutch should be taken away and either nerf BCs or buff something else in the zerg arsenal that can help vs BCs.
First page was full of Terran salt and tears when I first read it. Maybe some were edited or maybe you are the one that didn't read all. Either way, there WAS a lot of whining. As usual
I agree that IT will probably doing nothing vs BC's anymore,but Neural, Fungal and Corrupters were mostly the weapons of choice before the patch and nothing changed in that regard. IT's were more of a anti Protoss weapon. At least that's what I saw. Weren't that many super late games in ZvT though maybe I'm wrong here.
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On August 07 2019 17:39 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I love seeing all the Terrans whining again despite the fact that there has been only one Protoss title in the last two years. You should really be focusing on Zerg Late Game. It’s too strong for Protoss for sure and probably Terran - there’s hardly any answers there.
To quote Rotti, “Terran has become a spoiled child when they don’t get their way.”
Nerfing infestor is a focus on zerg late game.
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On August 07 2019 13:04 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Pros get to comment on proposed balance changes and they don’t share your concerns. Also, Maru is just better than Reynor at late game. Serral wiped the floor with Special’s BC battlemech and swept him 4-0 just like Maru swept Reynor. Serral was asked about those WCG games and his response was Reynor sucks at late game. If we saw Maru beat Serral 4-0 with BCs, then maybe we should be concerned about their power.
LMAO. How can you contradict your own logic in 1 post? Marus games vs Reynor dont matter bc Maru is better at late game but Serrals games vs Special do? The gap between Serral (top zerg) and Special (maybe top 10 Terran?) is far larger than the gap between Maru (top Terran) and Reynor (easily top 5 Zerg). When we see the best Terrans losing to the best zergs with this style your point will be valid but we have not. And now we are taking half the damage away from the literal way you saw Serral and Reynor try to deal with this style. So even if your hypothesis is that its balanced now bc the "better player" will win how does a 50 percent nerf make any sense whatsoever?
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On August 07 2019 20:38 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 19:10 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't understand, so many people post about whining terrans. Yet I see almost no whining terran in the thread?
Are you guys just joining the thread, not even reading the posts and taking for granted terrans are whining? o_o
I like the patch, especially for TvP, agree that IT needed a nerf but I do think that BCs are also a bit OP and should be if not nerfed closely watched.
That is the only thing I'm worried about with this patch that BCs will be too strong in TvZ but either way IT should be nerfed, if zerg needs that crutch to survive BCs the crutch should be taken away and either nerf BCs or buff something else in the zerg arsenal that can help vs BCs. First page was full of Terran salt and tears when I first read it. Maybe some were edited or maybe you are the one that didn't read all. Either way, there WAS a lot of whining. As usual I agree that IT will probably doing nothing vs BC's anymore,but Neural, Fungal and Corrupters were mostly the weapons of choice before the patch and nothing changed in that regard. IT's were more of a anti Protoss weapon. At least that's what I saw. Weren't that many super late games in ZvT though maybe I'm wrong here.
Lol, you are right, first page is filled with terran whine xD
Maybe its me that is so used to it I don't even reflect on it anymore. Maybe a lot of terran players just dont like TvP and their dislike for the matchup is turning into whine about balance when the actual complaint isn't really about balance but about fun.
I haven't played in a while but I do think PvT doesn't really look very fun to play at the moment which can make people yearn for changes that will effect the meta in a bigger way than this will even if it makes the game pretty balanced.
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On August 07 2019 22:08 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 13:04 Zzoram wrote:On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Pros get to comment on proposed balance changes and they don’t share your concerns. Also, Maru is just better than Reynor at late game. Serral wiped the floor with Special’s BC battlemech and swept him 4-0 just like Maru swept Reynor. Serral was asked about those WCG games and his response was Reynor sucks at late game. If we saw Maru beat Serral 4-0 with BCs, then maybe we should be concerned about their power. LMAO. How can you contradict your own logic in 1 post? Marus games vs Reynor dont matter bc Maru is better at late game but Serrals games vs Special do? The gap between Serral (top zerg) and Special (maybe top 10 Terran?) is far larger than the gap between Maru (top Terran) and Reynor (easily top 5 Zerg). When we see the best Terrans losing to the best zergs with this style your point will be valid but we have not. And now we are taking half the damage away from the literal way you saw Serral and Reynor try to deal with this style. So even if your hypothesis is that its balanced now bc the "better player" will win how does a 50 percent nerf make any sense whatsoever?
I think you should read that post you quoted again. You missunderstood at least half of it I think 
He said BOTH those series don't matter because of the large skill gap.
We will see how Zergs deal with it.
Maybe the answer is Fungal/ neural
Maybe it is countless counterattacks and try to evade the main fight.
Maybe it is Corrupter + Viper (yank)
Maybe it is a mix of all the above
Edit:
@Shuffleblade
I guess the large meta changing patch will come between Blizzcon and WCS 2020, if they plan on doing one
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France12912 Posts
On August 07 2019 22:08 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 13:04 Zzoram wrote:On August 07 2019 12:03 DomeGetta wrote:
This is quite bad. TvZ late game looks relatively balanced if not slightly imbalanced for T with BC mech (Maru @WCG). Reducing the counter unit (ITs) damage by 50 percent while also buffing the unit that counters it (ghost) is a horrendous idea. The BC needs a nerf to it if these are going through or its going to broken for sure. I dont understand how super obvious things like this ever make it into patches (stalker buff etc) you only need a very limited experience playing or watching to know how stupid this is. Pros get to comment on proposed balance changes and they don’t share your concerns. Also, Maru is just better than Reynor at late game. Serral wiped the floor with Special’s BC battlemech and swept him 4-0 just like Maru swept Reynor. Serral was asked about those WCG games and his response was Reynor sucks at late game. If we saw Maru beat Serral 4-0 with BCs, then maybe we should be concerned about their power. LMAO. How can you contradict your own logic in 1 post? Marus games vs Reynor dont matter bc Maru is better at late game but Serrals games vs Special do? The gap between Serral (top zerg) and Special (maybe top 10 Terran?) is far larger than the gap between Maru (top Terran) and Reynor (easily top 5 Zerg). When we see the best Terrans losing to the best zergs with this style your point will be valid but we have not. And now we are taking half the damage away from the literal way you saw Serral and Reynor try to deal with this style. So even if your hypothesis is that its balanced now bc the "better player" will win how does a 50 percent nerf make any sense whatsoever?
You overestimate Reynor by a large margin, but it's to be expected because zerg was crazy strong in 2018 and still pretty strong in 2019, and you underestimate special. The thing to consider during the special vs serral series was the beach map (I don't remember the name), where Reynor was on 3-4 bases with like no creep and special had way more bases but Reynor was able to turtle with his deathball and comeback for a win à la WoL broodlord/infestor. And it's not like special played really badly or anything, he just could not win a fight decisively.
TvZ is currently difficult in lategame versus zerg so this nerf is probably a good thing, infestors will still be super strong units with fungals and neural parasites. Have you personally played against infestors? If so you'll realise that this nerf is probably necessary to even things out.
All in all this seems like a good patch with nothing too crazy. Maybe they should have adressed nydus because it looks kinda stupid from a design point of view but it's maybe balanced. The TvP problems will probably be solved with the stimpack reduction / ghost buff.
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Northern Ireland26785 Posts
On August 07 2019 22:19 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 20:38 Harris1st wrote:On August 07 2019 19:10 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't understand, so many people post about whining terrans. Yet I see almost no whining terran in the thread?
Are you guys just joining the thread, not even reading the posts and taking for granted terrans are whining? o_o
I like the patch, especially for TvP, agree that IT needed a nerf but I do think that BCs are also a bit OP and should be if not nerfed closely watched.
That is the only thing I'm worried about with this patch that BCs will be too strong in TvZ but either way IT should be nerfed, if zerg needs that crutch to survive BCs the crutch should be taken away and either nerf BCs or buff something else in the zerg arsenal that can help vs BCs. First page was full of Terran salt and tears when I first read it. Maybe some were edited or maybe you are the one that didn't read all. Either way, there WAS a lot of whining. As usual I agree that IT will probably doing nothing vs BC's anymore,but Neural, Fungal and Corrupters were mostly the weapons of choice before the patch and nothing changed in that regard. IT's were more of a anti Protoss weapon. At least that's what I saw. Weren't that many super late games in ZvT though maybe I'm wrong here. Lol, you are right, first page is filled with terran whine xD Maybe its me that is so used to it I don't even reflect on it anymore. Maybe a lot of terran players just dont like TvP and their dislike for the matchup is turning into whine about balance when the actual complaint isn't really about balance but about fun. I haven't played in a while but I do think PvT doesn't really look very fun to play at the moment which can make people yearn for changes that will effect the meta in a bigger way than this will even if it makes the game pretty balanced.
Maybe? :p
I don’t really understand the Terran psyche at this point, I must confess. They seem to want the ego points for playing the hard race, but get pissy that it’s hard, most confusing. The whine is way worse on every other platform other than TL though, people are generally reasonable in their posting here.
I’d quite like to see more satisfying matchups, but I do feel the balance is pretty decent at present across the board.
I suppose I have a different perspective to some as I took a pretty big gap from almost all SC-related activity from the early LoTV era until this season. The game now is much better than that era, but to get to that point a whole slew of changes had to be made.
We could improve it yet further but I think that requires too many big changes that could backfire to introduce before Blizzcon
I’m down for changes, but I don’t think they’d be balance changes, one could call them ‘fun fiddling’ or what have you.
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On August 07 2019 17:56 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2019 17:34 EESCLuna wrote:
The funny thing is, according to aligulac, we were on the most balanced situation since 2015 on TVP, but instead of wait for the meta to stablish we get protoss nerfs and terran buffs. Meanwhile zerg still on the lead on early, mid and specially late game.
Remember the WOL-end balance ? Winfestor - Imbarruptor - GGlord ? We´re back there and nobody cares. Even zerg gets a scout buff lol
Thanks Stats for winning something since 2016. A full Korean line up tournament is nowadays less than a foreigner tournament where many top Koreans are missing? Am I missing a hidden joke? Watch. Who. Won. The. Damn. GSL. Super. Tournaments.
Oh my God, Protoss won the Super Tournaments, they win so much. Out of the 27 tournaments in the past two years, Protoss has won... five. Three ST's, ASUS ROG, and the WCS America that's the equivalent of the NA qualifiers of a normal WCS event.
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