Ok. Maybe protoss will end up too weak at first after those warp prism changes. But its nothing we cant fix in the end of year patch or another patch.
I think nerfing offensive warpins is very, very, very good for the game in the long term.
If we want ZvP to be more like ZvT, the best matchup in sc2, defender advantage needs to be better in the matchup.
As ppl get fired left and right in Blizzard and budget cuts happen, we need to understand we are not going to get balance patches for much longer.
If we want the game to be in a state like broodwar where it can be good for decades, can we really afford to stay on the current PvZ meta of 2 base all-ins being so strong every game? Games ending in one attack?
No. We need to get ZvP closer to what ZvT feels like, where both players have good defender advantage and come back potential. Where games are decided by many many moves instead of just one fight into gg.
Sure, maybe protoss will end up weak for a bit after the warp-prism nerf, but then from there we can adjust with the final patch of the year ( and maybe of SC2 life time).
We need to focus on hitting a good final game state for sc2, like ii said, we wont keep getting patches forever.
Can we all work as a whole instead of fighting each other, and find solutions to make protoss matchups better? Currently everyone hates playing against protoss, including protoss.
If every player could veto a race they dont want to play against, how long do you think protoss queues would be right now?
never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
As opposed to Terran whine which consists of ‘you literally can’t spare a single unit to defend prisms’ as if it’s that tight
did you bother reading post #207? I demonstrated that T needs much more than a single cyclone or viking to defend prisms while also securing a third base. instead, you chose to attack a position that I don't actually hold. nice
There’s plenty of optimisations Terrans can make, keeping initial cyclones if they survive in your main instead of occupying Xel’Naga towers or being bunched with your army etc
first, nobody uses their cyclone to occupy a Xel'Naga tower during in the early-mid phase, when serious prism harass and mass warp-ins become relevant. second, initial cyclones with an "s" aren't a thing. T can afford to make a singular cyclone. after this, the factory is occupied by tank production, then either widow mines (vs. twilight / gateway) or continued tanks (vs. robo). the only exception to the 1-cyclone rule is when P opens stargate. try holding a blink into the main with 2 cyclones instead of a tank and you'll see what I mean - or just watch some pro games, up to you.
I can only assume that you don't understand what the warp prism "threat phase" of the game actually looks like. T either goes for a 2-base all-in off of 5 raxx, heavy 2-base pressure off of 3-raxx with a late third behind, or a 3rd cc before powering up to 5 raxx.
when T is 2-basing, the prism becomes a game-ending threat when T is on the other side of the map, trying to contest the greedy third. it can play out a number of different ways: an initial 3 zealot drop with no immediate mass warp-in, at that critical moment when T needs to pay full attention to his army. once the pendulum swings even slightly in P's favour on the front line, the warp prism can zip into your main and warp 20 supply of zealots. the world's your oyster at this point: camp outside T's late third with your main army, while zealots go to town on T's workers. rinse, repeat, wait for T to split his army incorrectly, then pounce on that weakness.
third point on the cyclone: T 100% needs the cyclone in his main army when 2-base pushing across the map vs. blink stalkers. without the cyclone to ward off blink stalkers, T loses too many marines on the journey and then gets cleaned up by zealots. this interaction is best explained by TY and Special in their private lesson series:
when T is 3-basing, you can keep the cyclone at home to defend against prisms. however, as I demonstrated in post #207, a single viking or a single cyclone cannot provide adequate defense. what you really need is 2-3 turrets (350 minerals incl. the lost mining time) and a cyclone or viking. as I also demonstrated in post #207, this happens during the early-mid phase when T is resource-hungry and cannot comfortably afford a core army and so much dedicated prism defense. T is struggling to survive the precarious 3rd base defense in which warp prisms can zippity-doo-dah into your main, while a large gateway army waits to pounce at the front - that's the real issue here. taking a 3rd vP is such a bad idea that nobody does it. why do you think Terrans are 2-base all-inning every game?
you make it sound like defending the current prism is so easy for Terran. you argue against an avilo terran whiner scarecrow even though most of the Terrans in this thread are offering fair arguments. why? most of the community (players, casters, P players, T players) all agree that prism needs a nerf.
I don't know anything about PvZ, but what I can offer on that front is an equivalence in proxy-era TvP. tornado blaster cyclones were cancer, but they kept TvP in balance. does this mean that the far superior lock-on mechanic should be abandoned in favour of the old proxy meta? NO. that's not how you improve the game. Blizz should keep what's good, keep what's fun, and find other ways to compensate for the removal of lop-sided crutch units like the warp prism.
can you think of any ways in which P could be reimbursed for the warp prism vZ, without upsetting the balance vT? there's your ticket to some serious discussion.
But oh I suppose they’re good changes because Terran whiners are placated.
never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
As opposed to Terran whine which consists of ‘you literally can’t spare a single unit to defend prisms’ as if it’s that tight
did you bother reading post #207? I demonstrated that T needs much more than a single cyclone or viking to defend prisms while also securing a third base. instead, you chose to attack a position that I don't actually hold. nice
There’s plenty of optimisations Terrans can make, keeping initial cyclones if they survive in your main instead of occupying Xel’Naga towers or being bunched with your army etc
first, nobody uses their cyclone to occupy a Xel'Naga tower during in the early-mid phase, when serious prism harass and mass warp-ins become relevant. second, initial cyclones with an "s" aren't a thing. T can afford to make a singular cyclone. after this, the factory is occupied by tank production, then either widow mines (vs. twilight / gateway) or continued tanks (vs. robo). the only exception to the 1-cyclone rule is when P opens stargate. try holding a blink into the main with 2 cyclones instead of a tank and you'll see what I mean - or just watch some pro games, up to you.
I can only assume that you don't understand what the warp prism "threat phase" of the game actually looks like. T either goes for a 2-base all-in off of 5 raxx, heavy 2-base pressure off of 3-raxx with a late third behind, or a 3rd cc before powering up to 5 raxx.
when T is 2-basing, the prism becomes a game-ending threat when T is on the other side of the map, trying to contest the greedy third. it can play out a number of different ways: an initial 3 zealot drop with no immediate mass warp-in, at that critical moment when T needs to pay full attention to his army. once the pendulum swings even slightly in P's favour on the front line, the warp prism can zip into your main and warp 20 supply of zealots. the world's your oyster at this point: camp outside T's late third with your main army, while zealots go to town on T's workers. rinse, repeat, wait for T to split his army incorrectly, then pounce on that weakness.
third point on the cyclone: T 100% needs the cyclone in his main army when 2-base pushing across the map vs. blink stalkers. without the cyclone to ward off blink stalkers, T loses too many marines on the journey and then gets cleaned up by zealots. this interaction is best explained by TY and Special in their private lesson series:
when T is 3-basing, you can keep the cyclone at home to defend against prisms. however, as I demonstrated in post #207, a single viking or a single cyclone cannot provide adequate defense. what you really need is 2-3 turrets (350 minerals incl. the lost mining time) and a cyclone or viking. as I also demonstrated in post #207, this happens during the early-mid phase when T is resource-hungry and cannot comfortably afford a core army and so much dedicated prism defense. T is struggling to survive the precarious 3rd base defense in which warp prisms can zippity-doo-dah into your main, while a large gateway army waits to pounce at the front - that's the real issue here. taking a 3rd vP is such a bad idea that nobody does it. why do you think Terrans are 2-base all-inning every game?
you make it sound like defending the current prism is so easy for Terran. you argue against an avilo terran whiner scarecrow even though most of the Terrans in this thread are offering fair arguments. why? most of the community (players, casters, P players, T players) all agree that prism needs a nerf.
I don't know anything about PvZ, but what I can offer on that front is an equivalence in proxy-era TvP. tornado blaster cyclones were cancer, but they kept TvP in balance. does this mean that the far superior lock-on mechanic should be abandoned in favour of the old proxy meta? NO. that's not how you improve the game. Blizz should keep what's good, keep what's fun, and find other ways to compensate for the removal of lop-sided crutch units like the warp prism.
can you think of any ways in which P could be reimbursed for the warp prism vZ, without upsetting the balance vT? there's your ticket to some serious discussion.
But oh I suppose they’re good changes because Terran whiners are placated.
blah, blah, blah
In Depth, the episode they do Maru vs Neeb they focus hard on that he had a surviving early game cyclone + turrets, but pulled it with his army and away from defending with his turret ring.
A game he ultimately won anyway, but he pulled his cyclone needlessly away to his main army and his planned defence.
1 cyclone, plus turrets can absolutely deal with a prism
Terrans just want to complain endlessly instead of figuring things out.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
It’s amazing how tight Terran macro is that they can’t spare a few hundred minerals to defend anything even at obvious times, such as being backstabbed at their standard push timings.
It’s a miracle how the people who think they belong to the master race even win games when their timings are so tight that they can’t spare a couple of hundred minerals to defend themselves against backstabs
Zergs build extra queens and spores against aggression, Protoss build batteries and split units, why should Terran literally not build any defences wharsoever because their timings are so tight that they can’t spare 2 marines worth of resources or whatever?
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
It’s amazing how tight Terran macro is that they can’t spare a few hundred minerals to defend anything even at obvious times, such as being backstabbed at their standard push timings.
It’s a miracle how the people who think they belong to the master race even win games when their timings are so tight that they can’t spare a couple of hundred minerals to defend themselves against backstabs
Zergs build extra queens and spores against aggression, Protoss build batteries and split units, why should Terran literally not build any defences wharsoever because their timings are so tight that they can’t spare 2 marines worth of resources or whatever?
to be fair, its a whole lot more than 2 marines worth. closer to 20.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
It’s amazing how tight Terran macro is that they can’t spare a few hundred minerals to defend anything even at obvious times, such as being backstabbed at their standard push timings.
It’s a miracle how the people who think they belong to the master race even win games when their timings are so tight that they can’t spare a couple of hundred minerals to defend themselves against backstabs
Zergs build extra queens and spores against aggression, Protoss build batteries and split units, why should Terran literally not build any defences wharsoever because their timings are so tight that they can’t spare 2 marines worth of resources or whatever?
Shodan is literally answering your every question, you evade his every question and argue with senseless mush.
Seriously, are you still in the wol whine state of: "X race has to do Y, then all races also have to do Y otherwise it is unfair and badly balanced". No, just because protoss gets shield batteries that doesn't mean terran have to get bunkers in order for the game to be balanced and fun
I'm not at all knowledgable about the current game state but I do know that units doesn't appear out of thin air. If terran is doing a timing push it isn't just a question of "a couple of hundred minerals", it is the question of where those minerals are taken from AND the build time of the factory if you want a defensive cyclone that badly. Take away one tank from an early tank push timing and its success rate will plummet to the depth of the sea.
As Shodan wrote, its about the threat of the wp, protoss pay 200 minerals and build time on the robotics and if terran makes a dedicated attack protoss backstabs, which means terran cant make a dedicated attack which means protoss can greed and we all know what happens when protoss get ahead economically vs any race.
Zerg has an easier time vs wp because they can make a lot of units quicker than T and their units are generally faster, queens are useful throughout the whole game, cyclones and vikings are not.
The difference between protoss spliting units and terran spliting units is that protoss has to do it against actual army supply, terran would have to split an army that can handle 8 zealots just because protoss has the threat to warp in 8 zealots. If terran does split protoss just fight headon and win that fight. Wp is a vulnerability tool, either you split and weaken your main army so P wins the headon fight or T don't split and then P warpin the main. Thats not how any other race works, terran has split army supply to drop and zerg neef 14 sec build time nydus which is comparable and fair to 11 secs warpin time, not 4 secs like you have now.
I and others have explained this multiple times but either you dont comprehend it or you don't argree but dont have any decent argument because you seem unable to reply to this.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the main problem with the WP is the backstabbing potential when Terran is moving out right? And I mean a normal move out, not an All-In cause then it is over with WP or without.
A normal push is designed to scare Protoss and mabye do some damage. At this stage in the game IMO a few minerals to defend your base isn't too much to ask is it? If you open with a cyclone vs stalkers harass, leave it in your base. Cyclone + 1 Turret deters a WP pretty much. And even if not, it will be a drop and not a warp in (cause Cyclone obviously)
Now all who are saying Protoss has to do the same, it's only kinda true. Because Toss don't like to leave Stalkers at home, but they can ezpz Warp in 4 Stalkers to defend, which is something Terran can't. They do however need to make batteries in every base.
The patrolling Viking is more useful to get a early warning (when you are got enough to see it) but doesn't really stop a WP in my experience.
On July 04 2019 18:01 Freeborn wrote: The terran WP argument is total BS. Terran might maybe have a slight disadvantage but the WP is not the cause.
Medivac drops can do way more damage and quickly switch between bases without comitting.
A warp in is almost always 100% comitted and most of the time means you lose it all.
Lets compare a standard WP attack with a standard drop.
WP = Flys in with 4 zealots and unloads them. If they spot too much defense they get picked up again and most of the time savely escape unless you got 2 Vikings on spot. And if you don't got enough defense at your base you face a big warp in that sets you whole base on fire and destroys eco and production.
MV = Most of the time you scan ahead before you drop your boys to be safe. But even if you do the possibilty of a observer on your way to the base is always given. So already 1 mule less. So if you scan and its save your boost in and drop your most of the time 2 medivacs. So you stim and spread chaos while the toss warps units or recalls his units from anywhere.
What would you say if both players react as fast a possible will more damage be done?
On July 04 2019 18:01 Freeborn wrote: The terran WP argument is total BS. Terran might maybe have a slight disadvantage but the WP is not the cause.
Medivac drops can do way more damage and quickly switch between bases without comitting.
A warp in is almost always 100% comitted and most of the time means you lose it all.
Lets compare a standard WP attack with a standard drop.
WP = Flys in with 4 zealots and unloads them. If they spot too much defense they get picked up again and most of the time savely escape unless you got 2 Vikings on spot. And if you don't got enough defense at your base you face a big warp in that sets you whole base on fire and destroys eco and production.
MV = Most of the time you scan ahead before you drop your boys to be safe. But even if you do the possibilty of a observer on your way to the base is always given. So already 1 mule less. So if you scan and its save your boost in and drop your most of the time 2 medivacs. So you stim and spread chaos while the toss warps units or recalls his units from anywhere.
What would you say if both players react as fast a possible will more damage be done?
You forgot that toss can recall the wp when it's in a tight spot while medivac needs to pray hail mary 10x so it may not die
I like the direction they go, maybe only something like 8 instead of 11 seconds warp in but instead nerf WP-pickup range by 1?
What i dont get is: why buff carriers and nerf infestors at the same time? What they should do is make SOME carriers more viable in lategame but what they actually will do is encourage turtle play into MASS carriers with some HT Mothership.
Maybe just start with the carrier buff or the infestor nerf and see how it turns out? Problem will probably always be mass carriers being either insanely good or pretty bad.
On July 04 2019 19:05 Decendos wrote: I like the direction they go, maybe only something like 8 instead of 11 seconds warp in but instead nerf WP-pickup range by 1?
What i dont get is: why buff carriers and nerf infestors at the same time? What they should do is make SOME carriers more viable in lategame but what they actually will do is encourage turtle play into MASS carriers with some HT Mothership.
Maybe just start with the carrier buff or the infestor nerf and see how it turns out? Problem will probably always be mass carriers being either insanely good or pretty bad.
They should've increased the supply of all air units ages ago, so it's way worse to turtle and mass them.
On July 04 2019 18:01 Freeborn wrote: The terran WP argument is total BS. Terran might maybe have a slight disadvantage but the WP is not the cause.
Medivac drops can do way more damage and quickly switch between bases without comitting.
A warp in is almost always 100% comitted and most of the time means you lose it all.
Lets compare a standard WP attack with a standard drop.
WP = Flys in with 4 zealots and unloads them. If they spot too much defense they get picked up again and most of the time savely escape unless you got 2 Vikings on spot. And if you don't got enough defense at your base you face a big warp in that sets you whole base on fire and destroys eco and production.
MV = Most of the time you scan ahead before you drop your boys to be safe. But even if you do the possibilty of a observer on your way to the base is always given. So already 1 mule less. So if you scan and its save your boost in and drop your most of the time 2 medivacs. So you stim and spread chaos while the toss warps units or recalls his units from anywhere.
What would you say if both players react as fast a possible will more damage be done?
You don't realize that gateway units are trash except for zealots. The only way for P to defend drops is to leave stalkers and if you dont micro them they will just die vs anything that is dropped. Any warp in at home to defend vs mmm will always trade unfavorably. Plus you have any number of 1 to 3 or more medivacs, which can hit many places at once. A smart player will split and keep the boost to run away. There is zero chance of catching a drop without blink.
The prism is a single one at most two, if you take down the prism, you have removed 100% of the threat. If you leave 4 stalkers in one base you can take out 1 medivac before it drops at one base, now you have to cover the other abses too or have blink and leave a bigger army at home.
Plus bio terran has medivacs anyway thus can reposition quickly to respond in any base and even hunt down the prism with medivacs. Protoss is fucked on any map that allows switching drops between bases separated by cliffs. Only option is blink and keep units at home.
Because of course the next point is this: any uncaught medivac drop will with high probability kill a nexus, because of the DPS. But a toss warp in can never kill a CC unless the terran is shit. Usually terran loses scvs and some depots then cleans up all the zealots.
Protoss warp ins are only good if paired with attacks in other places, otherwise they do little. Terran drops do almost game ending damage within 6 sec of not being attacked.
Not to mention retarded early game widow mine drops where 2 secs inattention means GG due to 12 workers lost.
TERRANS WHINING ABOUT WARPPRISM IS THE MOST HYPOCRITICAL STUPID THING EVER. Thats how we can identify the true whiners. everything the warpprism does, medivac drops do faster, cheaper in mutiple places and while being used for healing at the same time.
I think that if there is a problem with pvt then it's due to the fact that protoss can put on more pressure directly after the game starts and that scales into mid and late game. For this the stim change is probably a reasonable approach.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
EPT
