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On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote:Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2012_Battle.net_World_Championship
Three protoss in top three is an evident example for undefeatability of infestor balls.
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On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote:Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8.  2012 Battle.net World ChampionshipOk, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help... I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering!
Not to mention the most worst balance there has ever been in Sc2 was in favor of Terran during the GomTvT era, but the master race was dominating and the players benefitting were legendary and popular so that I don't see many despise that era, despite it was way more lopsided than BL Infestor madness.
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On July 05 2019 19:55 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote:Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. 2012 Battle.net World ChampionshipOk, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help... I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering! Not to mention the most worst balance there has ever been in Sc2 was in favor of Terran during the GomTvT era, but the master race was dominating and the players benefitting were legendary and popular so that I don't see many despise that era, despite it was way more lopsided than BL Infestor madness.
The fact is that GomTvT didn't diminish the game's popularity, quite the contrary, while bl/infestor was such a snoozefest for so long that it killed the game, the balance team from that time should be sued, they cost a lot of people a lot of money.
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On July 05 2019 19:13 Haukinger wrote:Three protoss in top three is an evident example for undefeatability of infestor balls. The difference is, back then Protoss could hard-counter infestors with feedback. That's not the case anymore due to the feedback nerf. Because of this, it is now much less risky for Zerg to try and poke out their infestors and cast a fungal or neural since they know at worst, they might lose some infestor energy but few if any, actual units, and if they land a good fungal they are likely to at the very least kill multiple expensive Protoss air units. Combine that with using spores, broodlords, and queens to zone, and it's suddenly much more difficult for Protoss to ever attack a Zerg who has managed to get the infestor/broodlord/corruptor/viper ball with mass static defence up. At best now, Protoss can slowly chip away at this composition with tempests, and that's about it.
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On July 05 2019 19:55 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote:Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. 2012 Battle.net World ChampionshipOk, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help... I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering! Not to mention the most worst balance there has ever been in Sc2 was in favor of Terran during the GomTvT era, but the master race was dominating and the players benefitting were legendary and popular so that I don't see many despise that era, despite it was way more lopsided than BL Infestor madness.
The thing is the GomTvT era came really early in the game when nobody knew anything really, the it was also not due to a single factor, the TvT era saw a big ammount of changes and patches before it went away.
There was no single thing to put the blame on, nothing could point out the problem.
Blink stalker era and BL/Infestor era had clear culprits on the other hand, with makes the perseption of imbalance much more clear.
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On July 02 2019 08:23 KarlSiegt wrote:
Protoss Players should boicott this horrible game.
these changes are all experimental... i think the changes are worthy of exploration on an experimental basis.
as far as SC2 being horrible ...i dunno man.. i'm just happy Blizzard has found a way to monetize a game in the RTS genre so that it can get 9+ years of ongoing support. All my other favourite RTS games have been put out to pasture long ago. Co-op mode is a really cool addition to the game. They took Red Alert 3s co-op mode and made it way better. They experimented with a single player campaign pack that added a new story. That was cool.
i've been playing this game off and on since March of 2010 and its been fun. $140 well spent.
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On July 06 2019 04:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i've been playing this game off and on since March of 2010 and its been fun. $140 well spent.
Same here. Playing on and off since the beta, but I've always felt the game peaked somewhere in WoL (in terms of enjoyability). That said I still think blizzard has been doing a good job keeping it fresh since then and we're lucky to keep getting these community updates. Have a look at some other RTS released since 2010:
- Supreme Commander 2
- Command & Conquer 4
- Settlers 7
- Company of Heroes 2
- Grey Goo
Surely not exhaustive, but do any of these games keep getting updates or any semblance of community interaction?
Aside for Age of Empires 2 i can only really think of Blizzard being the ones putting out flagcarrying rts games. People whine "guess all protoss can quit the game" "guess the same about terran next patch" etc. kind of lame when I wish that Total Annihilation was still alive and that I could enjoy an existing community for Supreme Commander and still have 'community updates' coming out, with plenty of pro games to watch.
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On July 05 2019 19:13 Haukinger wrote:Three protoss in top three is an evident example for undefeatability of infestor balls.
For TvZ it was true, if the skill levels were remotely comparable. The 3 Protos got top 3 by using super perfected 2-base immortal/sentry all-ins vs Zerg, not beating finished infestor balls with or without feedback.
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I think that the stim change is good. Right now the entire TvP meta is shaped around the blink stalker opening and gateway allins. In a lot of ways Terran is restricted like toss used to be by widow mines. Widow mines were so strong toss has to get detection and therefore evrey toss build had to have detection at the widowmine drop timing. Similarly for Terran Protoss gateway attacks are so strong that Terran must have 2 siege tanks to fend them off. This requirement to have 2 siege tanks basically forces Terran to go for the 2 base timing push evrey game. If terran’s had a less expensive way to defend these attacks we might see more three base macro with harassment out of them like we used to and less 2 base tank allins. Right now the only way a high level tvp gets to late game is if the Terran Allin does an intermediate but not game ending amount of damage. It makes the meta extremely one dimensional. Occasionally we see mech plays but mech openers are curtailed by the same problems bio openers have and they the tend to outright die to a comited 2 base blink timing.
I Think that giving Terran 20 more seconds to have stim up is a huge deal for the mu since it lets terran’s deffend vs blink stalkers with 3 rax openings. Often the problem is that the blink stalkers reach your base and blink into your main before you have stim, bio without stim is awful against properly controled blink stalkers.
Like Pvt in PvZ nerfing the warprism will make games less one dimensional which is good I’m sick of the immortal Allin meta and it’s an obviously overpowered build that distorts the entire meta around its existence. The problem is that toss has no other clear game plan vs Zerg and Zerg is very strong vs Protoss both early and late, with the Allin nerf I’m not sure what Protoss does any more. I’m worried it will be like mine nerf back in hots where terran’s whole game plan revolves around one overpowered thing, so when that thing was taken away the race had no clear path to victory any more.
Protoss is in a weird spot to ballance In Terms of late game because their late game is so bad vs Zerg yet so strong vs Terran. I think that to fix this problem long term bliz would need to make some major adjustments to Protoss as a whole or Terran so that tweeks to toss don’t seem reasonable in one matchup will making or break the race in the other. My farthest out idea is that I would like to see some anti Protoss specific buffs to mech vs Protoss ones that won’t impact tvz mech. If mech was the predominant way to play vs toss and it was viable through the game than protoss could be adjusted to have a better gameplay experience vs Zerg. It hard to adjust Zerg late game without making them underpowered vs Terran, which is the worst since than Terran will opt to turtle from the very outset of the game, like we saw with ravens.
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To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
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On July 07 2019 19:49 WaesumNinja wrote:Surely not exhaustive, but do any of these games keep getting updates or any semblance of community interaction?
CoH2 has managed to keep going with a small but very very dedicated community. Relic has done a really nice job on a shoestring budget.
https://www.coh2.org/
C&C4 died a quick, ugly death. Red Alert 3 kept on going for a few years after C&C4 was released , however, SC2 really put a giant dent in its active player population.
Red Alert 3 still has an independently run "Ladder Wars" event each month with a prize of $20.
https://www.gamereplays.org/redalert3/portals.php?show=page&name=red-alert-three-june-2019-ladder-wars-qualifiers
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On July 08 2019 03:34 MarianoSC2 wrote:
To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
That depends if the allins are broken or not. How can you know. For standard builds in tvz this won’t be that big of a deal. Am I going to push you with my 2-1-1 before medivac are out? Am I going to push before I have 2 tanks with my poke? It will be a buff to Terran in more chaotic/ Allin games especially when they have sucsesfully defended an Allin. But I don’t think it would affect things to much. Maybe there will be a new 3 rax or 5 rax Allin to prepare for but I’m sure zerg has the tools to hold it. And would it be a bad thing if Terran had a barracks centric open agian in the match up.ever since 2-1-1 was nerfed the standard has been hellion+starports tech evrey game.
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On July 08 2019 05:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2019 19:49 WaesumNinja wrote:Surely not exhaustive, but do any of these games keep getting updates or any semblance of community interaction? CoH2 has managed to keep going with a small but very very dedicated community. Relic has done a really nice job on a shoestring budget. https://www.coh2.org/C&C4 died a quick, ugly death. Red Alert 3 kept on going for a few years after C&C4 was released , however, SC2 really put a giant dent in its active player population.
The death of gamespy was the biggest hit RA3 took. I miss RA3.
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Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
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On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
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On July 08 2019 03:34 MarianoSC2 wrote:
To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
what early tvz allins would those even be? hellbat stim? i really don't see hellbat stim becoming broken but feel free to elaborate
personally i think the ghost buff will do way more than people think, ghosts have always been a critical unit in tvp but a lot of players reject them for being "too hard" to use, they were never a weak unit. it's going to become pretty hard to avoid blanket EMPs for people who aren't pros. you can argue that's only fair with storm splitting for terran, but we'll have to see the effect
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On July 08 2019 08:51 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 03:34 MarianoSC2 wrote:
To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards. what early tvz allins would those even be? hellbat stim? i really don't see hellbat stim becoming broken but feel free to elaborate
Back at the start of lotv when reaper grenade was good I used to do a reactored reaper into 5 rax with stim + 1 and combat sheilds I could see this kind of build getting a light buff but even than I’m prity sure zerg hold this kind of stuff just fine zerg sometimes struggle vs terran’s abuse of mobility or air units but it’s been a very long time where Terran just smash your face in and it’s a strong build the closest thing we have right now are hell at allins and these are strong and in the meta but they can be and are countered.
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Northern Ireland11552 Posts
On July 08 2019 08:47 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty. How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed. If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway. Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
We’ll have to see.
My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
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On July 08 2019 09:16 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 08:47 washikie wrote:On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty. How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed. If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway. Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work. We’ll have to see. My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
Can you specify which benchmarks? Instinct is no basis to make an argument against this patch.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
Changing things and opening up new trends sounds like a great rationale for liking the pre-patch combo.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
It is possible to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor.
If Stim change is too strong, stim timings will dumpster Protoss. If Ghost change is too strong, lategame Terran will dumpster Protoss.
I agree that WP will affect PvZ negatively, perhaps too severely since Zergs need the threat of strong offensive timings from opponents to keep them from going full greed. And this will be easy to see as Zergs don't respect Protoss early game and dominate them with dumpster Protoss with un-earned econ leads.
The effect of carrier buff will also be possible to ascertain. Increased rate of interceptor production = increased rate of trading Protoss minerals vs opponent gas units (especially with focus fire).
Instead, I propose a nerf to widowmine friendlyfire. It is too random; can hit amazing shots, or dud shots, or terrible friendlyfire. It is punishing enough if mines do not land good hits since they are now visible after shots.
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On July 08 2019 15:53 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 09:16 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 08 2019 08:47 washikie wrote:On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty. How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed. If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway. Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work. We’ll have to see. My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks. Can you specify which benchmarks? Instinct is no basis to make an argument against this patch. Show nested quote +
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
Changing things and opening up new trends sounds like a great rationale for liking the pre-patch combo. Show nested quote +
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
It is possible to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor. If Stim change is too strong, stim timings will dumpster Protoss. If Ghost change is too strong, lategame Terran will dumpster Protoss. I agree that WP will affect PvZ negatively, perhaps too severely since Zergs need the threat of strong offensive timings from opponents to keep them from going full greed. And this will be easy to see as Zergs don't respect Protoss early game and dominate them with dumpster Protoss with un-earned econ leads. The effect of carrier buff will also be possible to ascertain. Increased rate of interceptor production = increased rate of trading Protoss minerals vs opponent gas units (especially with focus fire). Instead, I propose a nerf to widowmine friendlyfire. It is too random; can hit amazing shots, or dud shots, or terrible friendlyfire. It is punishing enough if mines do not land good hits since they are now visible after shots.
No widow mines shouldn't be buffed. They are already one of the most cost effective units in the game and one of the few units in the game that have such a disparity between the skill required to use it and the skill required to defend against it.
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WCS
