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Northern Ireland10782 Posts
On July 10 2019 23:08 GrandSmurf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it ofc you think its very fun to play. its disgustingly easy to use and strong. if you're on the receiving end it will induce rage beyond belief since there is no real counter play.
It perhaps is a bit easy, I’d be in favour of the range being nerfed. Will raise the floor a bit to fancy prism micro.
On the other hand it’s not the only interaction without real counter play. What is the Protoss counterplay to certain bio micro? Specifically good kiting.
I feel a greater balance should have been struck between Terran having incredibly micro potential but being hard, and Protoss lacking it but being easier.
They’ve kind of kept that largely intact and given Protoss more and more gimmicks to stay competitive.
Why not experiment with Zealots getting a passive speed increase rather than charge for example?
Just one idea, but it would open up flanking potential that isn’t there. They would also move faster than the rest of the death ball and would have to be repositioned or your army splits up, so a higher skill floor too. Zealots that are faster all the time also make splitting them and sending them to harass would be more effective, so you’re not as reliant on prisms and pylons.
As a Protoss player I hate charge, you can’t control it very well and it makes engaging into mines or tank lines a lottery, it makes your zealots charge away from mineral lines (ok you can disable auto cast so that’s my bad)
It guarantees an auto-hit as well which I don’t like from a more general position, no matter how good your opponent kites or splits you get a lot of unearned hits.
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On July 11 2019 02:43 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 23:08 GrandSmurf wrote:On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it ofc you think its very fun to play. its disgustingly easy to use and strong. if you're on the receiving end it will induce rage beyond belief since there is no real counter play. It perhaps is a bit easy, I’d be in favour of the range being nerfed. Will raise the floor a bit to fancy prism micro. On the other hand it’s not the only interaction without real counter play. What is the Protoss counterplay to certain bio micro? Specifically good kiting. I feel a greater balance should have been struck between Terran having incredibly micro potential but being hard, and Protoss lacking it but being easier. They’ve kind of kept that largely intact and given Protoss more and more gimmicks to stay competitive. Why not experiment with Zealots getting a passive speed increase rather than charge for example? Just one idea, but it would open up flanking potential that isn’t there. They would also move faster than the rest of the death ball and would have to be repositioned or your army splits up, so a higher skill floor too. Zealots that are faster all the time also make splitting them and sending them to harass would be more effective, so you’re not as reliant on prisms and pylons. As a Protoss player I hate charge, you can’t control it very well and it makes engaging into mines or tank lines a lottery, it makes your zealots charge away from mineral lines (ok you can disable auto cast so that’s my bad) It guarantees an auto-hit as well which I don’t like from a more general position, no matter how good your opponent kites or splits you get a lot of unearned hits.
Charge already gives you a passive speed increase though.
increases the movement speed of Zealots to 4.13.
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Northern Ireland10782 Posts
They’re not fast though. Not really dangerously so anyway.
Speedlings as a unit have no gimmicky abilities or anything but there’s a hell of a lot you can do with them in micro terms because they’re extremely fast. Still Life’s lings > everyone else’s because he got so much done with them.
Nobody ever says ‘insert Protoss pro’s chargelots’ because they’re really quite limited by how they operate.
It’s just spitballing ideas really. As a Protoss player I’m frustrated by how limited certain units are to use, when I play T it’s by how easy certain comps are to use.
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On July 10 2019 22:20 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it It lowers the floor of pick up micro though and makes those moments less impressive. Even though most pros nowadays can split marines vs Banelings well, it is still great to see it well done because it is hard to do. Warp Prism pick up micro misses those high points - especially when it is most often paired with Immortals, a unit already designed to be a straight up beast on the ground. Gimmicks can be good when they aren't so prevalent and they feel good to see and play against (despite the inherent unfairness a gimmick brings). A permanently cloaked unit that one shots workers (and can blink!) has gimmick written all over it, but it promotes action on both sides, has very clear responses and preventative measures, is risky and most importantly isn't the core strategy of the race. Drops don't feel gimmicky to me because every race can do them and every race can stop them. Doesn't mean it is easy, but at least it feels fair. For the record, I hate Medivac boost too.
(Sorry im on phone so i cant quote all)
Things is while i understand its hardly countered by z, it is not designed to be able to do insane damage like dt, or nothing if it fail. Depends if you are prelared or not you can more or less mitigate damage. Thats not the case for dt, that i hate with passion. Also i remember playing drop in hots and it was hard to do damage and make the apm worthy, especially against T, unless you were in late game where spamming zealots at the other side was quite easy and strong.
I fail to see how drop would continue to be a thing if they nerf significantly the range,especially in PvZ with queen range. Also impressive micro come mostly from all in prism micro, finding the tight spot for pick up is cool and all, but im worried it will mostly result in less drops because it will end up not worthy.
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On July 10 2019 17:39 JazzVortical wrote:
Overall, I'm so sick of all the gimmicks Protoss is built around. They kill the watchability of the race so much...
I find the gimmicks make Protoss not fun to play either, especially now that a lot of the gimmicks have been mostly figured out. All that's left is coin-flipping with the gimmicky units like oracles, doing all-ins, or playing super defensive. There's no in-between. There are very few spread out, dynamic, back-and-forth protoss games because of this. Most games are done in 1-2 big fights where either protoss doesn't lose their tech units and wins, or protoss loses their tech units and loses.
It's the reason why them walking back the stalker buff quickly was frustrating rather than looking at alternative changes. That initial change was what brought me back to the game because it sounded like they were finally doing some changes that would make protoss more interesting to use. The problem I have with protoss is that it has all these fancy higher tech units that are situationally incredibly good. However, the meat and potatoes protoss units, the 4 early gateway units (zealot, stalker, sentry, adept) are all terrible outside of all-ins. All of them basically operate on a timer and don't scale well enough to be used past a certain point in the game.
Zealots before charge are more or less glorified meat shields or units you cheese with. That's about it. They have no real utility. A good terran playing bio will seldom take damage from them and all of the early zerg units are fast enough to just avoid them in the first place. Zealots with charge are great for all-ins, as meat shields that happen to guarantee one hit, and on occasion, as a unit that can be used for harass if the opponent isn't prepared for them. There's nothing interesting you can do with them outside of putting them at the front of your army, or on rare occasion, trying to flank with them. You can't really split them the way you can bio or zerg units because charge just undoes the split the second a unit is in range.
Stalkers are absolute garbage outside of all-ins. They cost a ton and their damage does not remotely scale enough to make them useful as an actual damage dealing unit. The stalker damage buff made it so they could do enough single-shot damage to be able to defend tricky all-ins with good micro (for example, they 3-shotted marines, which was great for proxies, and they handled early game zerg cheeses much better) or be useful for poking. But they nerfed the stalker damage buff because blink all-ins were too good, and then blink all-ins remained too good anyway so in the end the nerf didn't accomplish much. In PvZ stalkers basically don't exist outside of all-ins or as an "Oh shit" response to broodlords. In PvT they are required for early game harass/cheese defence but then they are only built if liberators or vikings are in use.
Sentries are useful until around 10 minutes or when higher tech comes out, and they basically never get built again. Adepts are similarly only useful for a short amount of time in the early-mid game, and only if there is any surprise. Of course, like stalkers, sentries, and zealots, adepts are good in context to all-ins, but outside of that context they are basically unused in the non-mirror matchups.
I would be all for nerfing some of the higher tier units, tech, and abilities in exchange for either lategame upgrades to make the gateway units usable, or buffs to the units themselves to make them better throughout the game. It'd be amazing to be able to do speed zealot flanks or have adepts that could move around the map and do some harass without being completely shutdown by a PF, a couple spines, or a small amount of marine/marauder. It'd be super cool to be able to take a small amount of stalkers and harass bases or snipe tech.
Everyone whines about the immortal being too strong and how they never die. The immortal is how it is because it has to compensate for how poor the above 4 units are. It's very similar to where zerg is at with the queen. Both immortals and queens function as bandaid fixes for deeper issues. Without the immortal in the current state, protoss would just die to bio timings every game. Likewise, protoss would never get a third in PvZ because you cannot reasonably hold a mass roach attacks with gateway units alone (or even gateway units mixed with stargate units. Don't get me started on the void ray). The immortal is the only ground unit protoss has that is good against marauders and roaches.
I would be all for them nerfing the bejesus out of a bunch of protoss all-ins if in exchange they give us units that are actually fun to use and are useful for more than the first 5-10 minutes of the game. But that's not gonna happen. Instead one of the few strong things protoss has left is getting nerfed with nothing to compensate outside of an extreme lategame unit buff. My concern is that PvZ is going to turn into a turtlefest and we're going to end up back at 2013/2014-levels of bad SC2, but this time with infestor/broodlord/mass static defence instead of mass swarmhosts (see sOs vs. Ragnarok game 3 set 1 from the recent GSL group series. Once enough infestors were out, sOs could never engage Ragnarok in a cost-effective way, and went from being up supply and bank to dead). The changes also do nothing to address the issue of PvT being mostly tank pushes, and if anything, these changes, if they go through in this form, could make the matchup even more volatile and bad.
I quit the game again a month ago and it's going to take drastic changes for me to come back. I tried playing it again a few times but I just don't enjoy it anymore and it's more frustrating to play than anything. The game was in a pretty fun place last year, proxy meta and all, but ever since the last big December patch, I've been having less and less fun. The matchups are becoming less dynamic, and it seems several of the matchups have turned into being mostly all-ins.
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I think the gap that David Kim has left in the balance team is being felt pretty profoundly. This is literally a regressive list of changes.
Ghosts are already super strong units when you get them. And because lategame spellcasters and air armies are so sick, the game slows down SUPER hard at 20 minutes.
Spellcasters in general shouldn't completely dominate the game. They should augment it.
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On July 11 2019 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
They’re not fast though. Not really dangerously so anyway.
Speedlings as a unit have no gimmicky abilities or anything but there’s a hell of a lot you can do with them in micro terms because they’re extremely fast. Still Life’s lings > everyone else’s because he got so much done with them.
Nobody ever says ‘insert Protoss pro’s chargelots’ because they’re really quite limited by how they operate.
It’s just spitballing ideas really. As a Protoss player I’m frustrated by how limited certain units are to use, when I play T it’s by how easy certain comps are to use.
I think it would be an interesting idea, BW zealot legs open up a lot of micro and multitasking pontential that chargelots being 1A'd into the enemy don't have.
I even remember Day9 in his dailies were he would say chargelots were units that "microed themselves" in a joking manner.
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On July 05 2019 01:54 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2019 22:29 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 16:50 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 11:59 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense. greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not. if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't. the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult. the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win. tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude. This is just wrong Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game. You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion. Lib harass Hellion The list goes on Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass. hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops). I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone" You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic. Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret) Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line. I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall. But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Also, I feel nydus timing should be pushed back a bit.
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On July 11 2019 15:39 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 01:54 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 22:29 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 16:50 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 11:59 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense. greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not. if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't. the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult. the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win. tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude. This is just wrong Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game. You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion. Lib harass Hellion The list goes on Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass. hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops). I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone" You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic. Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret) Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line. I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall. But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything. I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely. In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Thankfully, the balance team disagrees.
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On July 11 2019 15:42 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 15:39 Parcelleus wrote:On July 05 2019 01:54 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 22:29 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 16:50 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 11:59 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense. greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not. if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't. the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult. the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win. tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude. This is just wrong Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game. You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion. Lib harass Hellion The list goes on Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass. hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops). I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone" You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic. Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret) Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line. I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall. But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything. I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely. In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous. Thankfully, the balance team disagrees.
Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback.
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On July 11 2019 15:51 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 15:42 pvsnp wrote:On July 11 2019 15:39 Parcelleus wrote:On July 05 2019 01:54 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 22:29 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 16:50 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 11:59 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense. greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not. if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't. the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult. the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win. tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude. This is just wrong Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game. You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion. Lib harass Hellion The list goes on Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass. hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops). I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone" You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic. Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret) Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line. I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall. But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything. I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely. In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous. Thankfully, the balance team disagrees. Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback.
And yours has been duly noted, no doubt. I deeply admire the dedication of the balance team, reading through every comment on the 16th page of a discussion 10 days after the fact.
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On July 11 2019 16:10 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 15:51 Parcelleus wrote:On July 11 2019 15:42 pvsnp wrote:On July 11 2019 15:39 Parcelleus wrote:On July 05 2019 01:54 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 22:29 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 16:50 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 11:59 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense. greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not. if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't. the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult. the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win. tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude. This is just wrong Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game. You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion. Lib harass Hellion The list goes on Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass. hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops). I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone" You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic. Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret) Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line. I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall. But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything. I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely. In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous. Thankfully, the balance team disagrees. Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback. And yours has been duly noted, no doubt. I deeply admire the dedication of the balance team, reading through every comment on the 16th page of a discussion 10 days after the fact.
Excellent rebuttal of the post I quoted.
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On July 11 2019 16:40 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 16:10 pvsnp wrote:On July 11 2019 15:51 Parcelleus wrote:On July 11 2019 15:42 pvsnp wrote:On July 11 2019 15:39 Parcelleus wrote:On July 05 2019 01:54 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 22:29 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 16:50 BerserkSword wrote:On July 04 2019 11:59 SHODAN wrote:On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense. greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not. if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't. the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult. the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win. tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude. This is just wrong Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game. You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion. Lib harass Hellion The list goes on Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass. hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops). I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone" You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic. Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret) Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line. I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall. But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything. I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely. In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous. Thankfully, the balance team disagrees. Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback. And yours has been duly noted, no doubt. I deeply admire the dedication of the balance team, reading through every comment on the 16th page of a discussion 10 days after the fact. Excellent rebuttal of the post I quoted.
Where was I trying to rebut anything you quoted? Where was I even making any kind of argument? I said that the balance team disagrees with your ludicrous assessment, which it obviously does, else this thread wouldn't exist.
Your unicorn needs a bath, by the way, since we're just making things up now.
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21 seconds decreased research is not big enough of a change. I did dwell on this idea 15 months ago.
Bio doesn't just get better through Stim. There is a trade off, it costs health (*surprised_pikachu*). Stim is an investment and when T stims 10 Marines those need to do 100 more damage than they would have without Stim, just to be even. 21 seconds decreased research time opens about no new opportunities for this investment. Early in the game, this investment must carry T until Medivacs. Stimming a mostly Marine, no Combat Shield army a second time is about the last conscience thought before F10+n.
21 seconds happens to be the just in the middle between the build time of a Roach and the build time of a Stalker. I came to the conclusion that the speedup must be around 30-34 seconds (2 chroned Stalkers-ish), to actually become useable and then even more (2 unchroned Stalkers, i.e 46 seconds) to capitalize on it. Below 30 seconds this just increases T survivability in some random situations and T will probably still be far behind in most of those cases.
Yes, asking for 60 was a bit excessive, but of course I was expecting people to argue my proposed number would be too high, no matter what I said. Glad that after 15 months I get to blurp out the rest of what I had to say. Let's wait another 15 months.
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What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
The other thing I would like to see Blizzard address is to equalize the common aspects of the races. Protoss got cheaper upgrades in WoL because they were on the back foot, but times have changed and nowadays Protoss are usually ahead in upgrades. The other such thing is the build time of supply depots, that was also nerfed early in WoL to sandbag proxy 2 rax builds. These are really minor changes, but they contribute to the fair feel of the game. Also, shorter supply depot build time might positively impact Terran macro across the board, as building a supply depot 3 seconds later opens up more mining time and a window where you might be able to add the production a bit earlier. But that's just theorycrafting.
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On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
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On July 12 2019 19:27 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races. so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder. admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals. you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame? I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy. so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options? cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game. the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones. anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
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On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 19:27 SHODAN wrote:On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races. so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder. admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals. you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame? I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy. so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options? cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game. the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones. anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
Wait, you think that less doom drops is more coin flippy  ))?
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On July 13 2019 01:45 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote:On July 12 2019 19:27 SHODAN wrote:On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races. so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder. admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals. you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame? I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy. so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options? cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game. the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones. anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me. Wait, you think that less doom drops is more coin flippy ))?
If you want to phrase it like that, yes. If the tanks get nerfed the doom drops will be weaker as well and won't be as prevalent as you think. Also, if you could read my whole post before commenting it would be really nice.
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WCS
