EPTCommunity Update - July 2, 2019 - Page 17
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MrFreeman
207 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2625 Posts
On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote: Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me. Not only are tanks nowhere near as strong as you think, they aren't the reason HotS style doomdrops fall out of meta. Doom drops dissapeared because players learned to maintain good map vision and the immportance of air superiority made vikings more common making it easier to catch drops. Drops and harass are still and important part of the MU as well as knowing how to split your attention between drops and main tank line battles. Your idea would not only make terran super weak in non MUs and make mech totally disspaear in all MUs but it would make TvT devolve into mindless mass marines like SHODAN said. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On July 13 2019 03:08 MrFreeman wrote: So when will the less radical version of these changes be published? The stronger ghost and weaker infestor are just ridiculous. The balance team said a second set of changes will be released next week. But that's a new set entirely, not a modification on these changes. They're trying to test two parallel patches. Also the ghost and infestor are the smallest and least controversial changes lmao. Same level as the interceptor change. Prism is the big fish. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote: Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me. again, I sympathize with you. I've been playing since WoL and my brain is so accustomed to stimming 1 marine forward, baiting the first tank shot, juking and jiving between the tank volleys to break a contain. now I refuse to play marine / tank because it's so infuriating. personally, I would prefer very strong but very dumb BW-style tanks: remove smartfire, reinstate overkill, reduce attack speed, reduce the siege / unsiege time (perhaps tied to transformation servos), further buff tank damage and make them 2 supply. this way, you can use weak units to bait shots, manipulate them to inflict friendly fire on your opponent, while also rewarding the tank player who babysits his army and manages each tank individually. units with lop-sided stats, e.g. massive range or extremely high / low cooldowns, should be tempered with pronounced weaknesses in the name of fairness and fun. sc2 smartifre tanks tread a precarious middle-road where they are sometimes too strong, and sometimes completely useless (e.g. vs zealots). the problem with bringing BW tanks to sc2 is that units clump much more easily in sc2. you'd have to completely redesign the balance of multi-player to accomodate BW tanks. maybe there is a compromise between the BW tank and sc2 tank that would work, but I can't really imagine what it would look like | ||
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MrFreeman
207 Posts
On July 13 2019 06:47 pvsnp wrote: The balance team said a second set of changes will be released next week. But that's a new set entirely, not a modification on these changes. They're trying to test two parallel patches. Also the ghost and infestor are the smallest and least controversial changes lmao. Same level as the interceptor change. Prism is the big fish. My toss strategies are so coin flippy, that the longer warp-in doesn't bother me that much and most of my marines go into bunkers, so I usually don't make stim :D . On July 13 2019 11:02 SHODAN wrote: again, I sympathize with you. I've been playing since WoL and my brain is so accustomed to stimming 1 marine forward, baiting the first tank shot, juking and jiving between the tank volleys to break a contain. now I refuse to play marine / tank because it's so infuriating. personally, I would prefer very strong but very dumb BW-style tanks: remove smartfire, reinstate overkill, reduce attack speed, reduce the siege / unsiege time (perhaps tied to transformation servos), further buff tank damage and make them 2 supply. this way, you can use weak units to bait shots, manipulate them to inflict friendly fire on your opponent, while also rewarding the tank player who babysits his army and manages each tank individually. units with lop-sided stats, e.g. massive range or extremely high / low cooldowns, should be tempered with pronounced weaknesses in the name of fairness and fun. sc2 smartifre tanks tread a precarious middle-road where they are sometimes too strong, and sometimes completely useless (e.g. vs zealots). the problem with bringing BW tanks to sc2 is that units clump much more easily in sc2. you'd have to completely redesign the balance of multi-player to accomodate BW tanks. maybe there is a compromise between the BW tank and sc2 tank that would work, but I can't really imagine what it would look like I don't think SC2 needs to get even more micro intensive. If ppl want overwhelmingly challenging game, the BW is there for them, SC2 is its own thing. | ||
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Pentarp
216 Posts
On July 08 2019 22:18 Wombat_NI wrote: I just don’t know is the answer, I’m not going to make authoritative statements as to the impact of potential changes because multiple things are all happening. On July 10 2019 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote: Terrans do tend to enjoy their whining but there were periods their aggressive options were so strong that Blizzard gave Protoss the mothership core because they couldn’t figure out another way to balance the matchup. Thankfully they figured out that shield batteries were a much better solution in a strategy game than a ‘click to defend your base’ I hope you can also refrain from statements with weasel words such as how Terran players "tend to" enjoy their whining because it detracts from discussion and adds a false sense of authority to your opinions. On July 10 2019 15:48 K5 wrote: Actually, when Terran aggressive options were too strong, the builds got nerfed pretty soon (bunker build time, rax requires supply depot, supply depot build time, etc.). The mothership core was originally introduced in HotS to encourage Protoss to actually expand in PvP, where almost every game in late WoL ended up being 1 base 4 gate vs 4 gate. The MSC rightfully got removed, as a hero unit does not belong in a strategy game like StarCraft and because its defensive potential was too strong for the state of the game. Its replacements however, did produce some unintended results. Ghost Snipes were nerfed in patch 1.4.3 after one tournament demonstrated their power to the balance team. I have advocated for a nerf to EMP Rounds back when it was 2.0 radius and drained ALL energy without the need for an upgrade. Why? Because I could see Protoss players, despite earning substantial leads, would get dominated with just EMP spam. Now, the game design and balance has reversed to the point where Protoss can do the same by spamming Psionic Storms vs Terrans. ps. Slightly off-topic but listen to the shouts and cries from the crowd in the game I linked above. Rightnow, the problem isn't just balance. It's also the fact that gameplay doesn't impress the crowd. People were so impressed by Mvp's ghosts because it was not common to see ghosts being used at that level. "BEAUTIFUL STORMS" doesn't mean a thing when a diamond or even platinum Protoss can pull it off. Ghost EMP upgrade + Show Spoiler + remember, it's an upgrade, so it will not be used as early game cheese Finally, I'd like to again reiterate that the patch changes affect the games at different stages of play. The effects will be clearly discernable due to the primary impact occurring at specific stages. Yes, advantages do have a snowballing effect, but we can observe when the snowballing begins. If it starts at stim-timings, then yes, stim change is too strong. But there have been many posts stating that stim-timing relies on medivac timing as well, which remains unaffected. Please look past your ladder MMR and think of the viewers. | ||
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Spirit_HUN
24 Posts
The infestor change is ok, but you should not buff ghosts at the same time. I dont see any reason in TvP for stronger emp as well. Carrier change is ok. The warp prism needs to be nerfed but this change is too much. They should nerf the pickup range as well. Also BCs are op, and photon cannons need a longer build time. Nydus worm (not the network) is also too cheap, but i think they should not change it yet coz zerg has a very limited counterplay options. Spire play needs some kind of buff too. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On July 14 2019 07:06 Spirit_HUN wrote: I hope the stimpack change will never go through. It will break the game. Also it solves nothing just makes terran timing attacks / allins more stronger. Terran has to research only 2 unit specific upgrades in the game. Combat shields and stimpack. Other upgrades are just options basically. So we should not make terran even more upgrade free. The infestor change is ok, but you should not buff ghosts at the same time. I dont see any reason in TvP for stronger emp as well. Carrier change is ok. The warp prism needs to be nerfed but this change is too much. They should nerf the pickup range as well. Also BCs are op, and photon cannons need a longer build time. Nydus worm (not the network) is also too cheap, but i think they should not change it yet coz zerg has a very limited counterplay options. Spire play needs some kind of buff too. Upgrade free? Terran is the race with the most available upgrades in the game. | ||
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Eladmiara
25 Posts
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran. But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event. | ||
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Eladmiara
25 Posts
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran. But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event. Protoss can play with xbox controller and reach master 1, i did it. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran. But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event. Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments. Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time". Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_- Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed? Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out. Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24702 Posts
On July 15 2019 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote: Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments. Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time". Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_- Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed? Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out. Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed. Protoss hasn’t been doing atypically well for ages though, Super Tournament yes but that’s been more the exception than the trend. WCS has generally not been that bad in terms of racial distribution for quite a while This code S there are more Terrans through thus far to the Ro16 than other races. Trend wise it seems Zergs have got better at finding counter measures to Robo centric immortal pushes than a few months ago as well. Protoss don’t need buffs or anything, arguably they’re going to be over-nerfed because they’re the most complained about race, out of proportion with how ‘dominant’ people have perceived Protoss being for a while. Changes perhaps sure especially with the prism, as things suggested stand Protoss has nothing useful to offset the proposed prism nerfs in a PvZ matchup that is already swinging against current builds. Carrier buffs are still insufficient to overcome previous nerfs, especially the feedback nerf to counter vipers and investors, and Robo centric stuff is just outright weaker. Changes may improve TvP slightly, although I think that matchup is actually pretty ok at the top level, but they risk making PvZ pretty terrible (even more terrible than it is now if that was possible) | ||
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DrunkenSCV
76 Posts
Just fix all these broken units. Not just warp prism. SC2 could be so much more fun this way. | ||
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WayTeh
Belarus18 Posts
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
On July 15 2019 21:08 WayTeh wrote: Today is new set of changes? Anyone know what time? first, with blizz being on the west coast and all they usually don't release announcements before 20:00 cest. second, they said that "the second set of changes will be available for testing on the week of July 15th", so it's not necessarily going to be today. | ||
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pzlama333
United States276 Posts
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skdsk
138 Posts
On July 15 2019 20:33 DrunkenSCV wrote: I think it's just very bad for the game when some races have such powerful tools like nydus, warp prism, infestors, swarm hosts and some others. A unit with 200 mineral cost shouldn't be as much of a threat as it is rn, it's ridiculous. A unit that costs 50/50 shouldn't be able to teleport a whole army anywhere you want. They did not want terran to spam Ravens - good point. What about infestors now? Just fix all these broken units. Not just warp prism. SC2 could be so much more fun this way. agree, nydus is just ridiculous late game, imagine if terran could do medivac doom drop with no risk whatsoever, thats exactly what zergs can do with 50/50 unit and no supply cost ... | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On July 15 2019 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote: Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments. Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time". Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_- Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed? Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out. Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed. I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On July 16 2019 02:26 FFW_Rude wrote: I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor. I weren't aware one player could qualify multiple times and fill a bracket by themselves. | ||
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