Community Update - July 2, 2019 - Page 17

MrFreeman

207 Posts

July 12 2019 18:08 GMT

#321

So when will the less radical version of these changes be published? The stronger ghost and weaker infestor are just ridiculous.

Lexender

Mexico2623 Posts

July 12 2019 18:16 GMT

#322

On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 12 2019 19:27 SHODAN wrote:

On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terranm, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.

so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.

admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.

you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?

I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.

so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?

cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.

the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.

anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design

Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.

Not only are tanks nowhere near as strong as you think, they aren't the reason HotS style doomdrops fall out of meta. Doom drops dissapeared because players learned to maintain good map vision and the immportance of air superiority made vikings more common making it easier to catch drops.

Drops and harass are still and important part of the MU as well as knowing how to split your attention between drops and main tank line battles.

Your idea would not only make terran super weak in non MUs and make mech totally disspaear in all MUs but it would make TvT devolve into mindless mass marines like SHODAN said.

pvsnp

7676 Posts

July 12 2019 21:47 GMT

#323

On July 13 2019 03:08 MrFreeman wrote:
So when will the less radical version of these changes be published? The stronger ghost and weaker infestor are just ridiculous.

The balance team said a second set of changes will be released next week. But that's a new set entirely, not a modification on these changes. They're trying to test two parallel patches.

Also the ghost and infestor are the smallest and least controversial changes lmao. Same level as the interceptor change. Prism is the big fish.

SHODAN

United Kingdom1060 Posts

July 13 2019 02:02 GMT

#324

On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 12 2019 19:27 SHODAN wrote:

On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.

again, I sympathize with you. I've been playing since WoL and my brain is so accustomed to stimming 1 marine forward, baiting the first tank shot, juking and jiving between the tank volleys to break a contain. now I refuse to play marine / tank because it's so infuriating.

personally, I would prefer very strong but very dumb BW-style tanks: remove smartfire, reinstate overkill, reduce attack speed, reduce the siege / unsiege time (perhaps tied to transformation servos), further buff tank damage and make them 2 supply. this way, you can use weak units to bait shots, manipulate them to inflict friendly fire on your opponent, while also rewarding the tank player who babysits his army and manages each tank individually. units with lop-sided stats, e.g. massive range or extremely high / low cooldowns, should be tempered with pronounced weaknesses in the name of fairness and fun. sc2 smartifre tanks tread a precarious middle-road where they are sometimes too strong, and sometimes completely useless (e.g. vs zealots).

the problem with bringing BW tanks to sc2 is that units clump much more easily in sc2. you'd have to completely redesign the balance of multi-player to accomodate BW tanks. maybe there is a compromise between the BW tank and sc2 tank that would work, but I can't really imagine what it would look like

MrFreeman

207 Posts

July 13 2019 10:07 GMT

#325

On July 13 2019 06:47 pvsnp wrote:

Show nested quote +

My toss strategies are so coin flippy, that the longer warp-in doesn't bother me that much and most of my marines go into bunkers, so I usually don't make stim :D .

On July 13 2019 11:02 SHODAN wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 12 2019 23:54 K5 wrote:

On July 12 2019 19:27 SHODAN wrote:

On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote:
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.

I don't think SC2 needs to get even more micro intensive. If ppl want overwhelmingly challenging game, the BW is there for them, SC2 is its own thing.

Pentarp

206 Posts

July 13 2019 18:42 GMT

#326

On July 08 2019 22:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
I just don’t know is the answer, I’m not going to make authoritative statements as to the impact of potential changes because multiple things are all happening.

On July 10 2019 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans do tend to enjoy their whining but there were periods their aggressive options were so strong that Blizzard gave Protoss the mothership core because they couldn’t figure out another way to balance the matchup. Thankfully they figured out that shield batteries were a much better solution in a strategy game than a ‘click to defend your base’

I hope you can also refrain from statements with weasel words such as how Terran players "tend to" enjoy their whining because it detracts from discussion and adds a false sense of authority to your opinions.

On July 10 2019 15:48 K5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually, when Terran aggressive options were too strong, the builds got nerfed pretty soon (bunker build time, rax requires supply depot, supply depot build time, etc.). The mothership core was originally introduced in HotS to encourage Protoss to actually expand in PvP, where almost every game in late WoL ended up being 1 base 4 gate vs 4 gate. The MSC rightfully got removed, as a hero unit does not belong in a strategy game like StarCraft and because its defensive potential was too strong for the state of the game. Its replacements however, did produce some unintended results.

Ghost Snipes were nerfed in patch 1.4.3 after one tournament demonstrated their power to the balance team.

I have advocated for a nerf to EMP Rounds back when it was 2.0 radius and drained ALL energy without the need for an upgrade. Why? Because I could see Protoss players, despite earning substantial leads, would get dominated with just EMP spam. Now, the game design and balance has reversed to the point where Protoss can do the same by spamming Psionic Storms vs Terrans.

ps. Slightly off-topic but listen to the shouts and cries from the crowd in the game I linked above. Rightnow, the problem isn't just balance. It's also the fact that gameplay doesn't impress the crowd. People were so impressed by Mvp's ghosts because it was not common to see ghosts being used at that level. "BEAUTIFUL STORMS" doesn't mean a thing when a diamond or even platinum Protoss can pull it off.

Ghost EMP upgrade + Show Spoiler +

remember, it's an upgrade, so it will not be used as early game cheese

will hopefully force Protoss to spread their units in late-game; adding to the difficulty of their game. Protoss with the skill ceiling to add that extra bit of micro will do better than those who don't. Ghosts will still remove only 100 energy (as opposed to ALL energy). If split well, there will be storms left over so that Terrans cannot just a-move afterwards. Sorry to the ladder warriors who clump up their armies, but its better for the overall health of the scene.

Finally, I'd like to again reiterate that the patch changes affect the games at different stages of play. The effects will be clearly discernable due to the primary impact occurring at specific stages. Yes, advantages do have a snowballing effect, but we can observe when the snowballing begins. If it starts at stim-timings, then yes, stim change is too strong. But there have been many posts stating that stim-timing relies on medivac timing as well, which remains unaffected.

Please look past your ladder MMR and think of the viewers.

Spirit_HUN

24 Posts

July 13 2019 22:06 GMT

#327

I hope the stimpack change will never go through. It will break the game. Also it solves nothing just makes terran timing attacks / allins more stronger. Terran has to research only 2 unit specific upgrades in the game. Combat shields and stimpack. Other upgrades are just options basically. So we should not make terran even more upgrade free.
The infestor change is ok, but you should not buff ghosts at the same time. I dont see any reason in TvP for stronger emp as well.
Carrier change is ok.
The warp prism needs to be nerfed but this change is too much. They should nerf the pickup range as well.
Also BCs are op, and photon cannons need a longer build time. Nydus worm (not the network) is also too cheap, but i think they should not change it yet coz zerg has a very limited counterplay options. Spire play needs some kind of buff too.

washikie

United States752 Posts

July 14 2019 00:02 GMT

#328

On July 14 2019 07:06 Spirit_HUN wrote:
I hope the stimpack change will never go through. It will break the game. Also it solves nothing just makes terran timing attacks / allins more stronger. Terran has to research only 2 unit specific upgrades in the game. Combat shields and stimpack. Other upgrades are just options basically. So we should not make terran even more upgrade free.
The infestor change is ok, but you should not buff ghosts at the same time. I dont see any reason in TvP for stronger emp as well.
Carrier change is ok.
The warp prism needs to be nerfed but this change is too much. They should nerf the pickup range as well.
Also BCs are op, and photon cannons need a longer build time. Nydus worm (not the network) is also too cheap, but i think they should not change it yet coz zerg has a very limited counterplay options. Spire play needs some kind of buff too.

Upgrade free? Terran is the race with the most available upgrades in the game.

Eladmiara

25 Posts

July 15 2019 02:20 GMT

#329

Where the second set?

Boggyb

2855 Posts

July 15 2019 02:51 GMT

#330

Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went:
12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg.
4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.

But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.

Eladmiara

25 Posts

July 15 2019 05:58 GMT

#331

On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote:
Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went:
12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg.
4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.

But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.

Protoss can play with xbox controller and reach master 1, i did it.

User was banned for this post.

Shuffleblade

Sweden1903 Posts

July 15 2019 09:01 GMT

#332

Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.

Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".

Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-

Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?

Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.

Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.

WombaT

Northern Ireland23344 Posts

July 15 2019 09:21 GMT

#333

On July 15 2019 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote:

Show nested quote +

Protoss hasn’t been doing atypically well for ages though, Super Tournament yes but that’s been more the exception than the trend. WCS has generally not been that bad in terms of racial distribution for quite a while

This code S there are more Terrans through thus far to the Ro16 than other races.

Trend wise it seems Zergs have got better at finding counter measures to Robo centric immortal pushes than a few months ago as well.

Protoss don’t need buffs or anything, arguably they’re going to be over-nerfed because they’re the most complained about race, out of proportion with how ‘dominant’ people have perceived Protoss being for a while.

Changes perhaps sure especially with the prism, as things suggested stand Protoss has nothing useful to offset the proposed prism nerfs in a PvZ matchup that is already swinging against current builds.

Carrier buffs are still insufficient to overcome previous nerfs, especially the feedback nerf to counter vipers and investors, and Robo centric stuff is just outright weaker.

Changes may improve TvP slightly, although I think that matchup is actually pretty ok at the top level, but they risk making PvZ pretty terrible (even more terrible than it is now if that was possible)

DrunkenSCV

76 Posts

July 15 2019 11:33 GMT

#334

I think it's just very bad for the game when some races have such powerful tools like nydus, warp prism, infestors, swarm hosts and some others. A unit with 200 mineral cost shouldn't be as much of a threat as it is rn, it's ridiculous. A unit that costs 50/50 shouldn't be able to teleport a whole army anywhere you want. They did not want terran to spam Ravens - good point. What about infestors now?
Just fix all these broken units. Not just warp prism. SC2 could be so much more fun this way.

WayTeh

Belarus18 Posts

July 15 2019 12:08 GMT

#335

Today is new set of changes? Anyone know what time?

batatm

Israel116 Posts

July 15 2019 14:06 GMT

#336

On July 15 2019 21:08 WayTeh wrote:
Today is new set of changes? Anyone know what time?

first, with blizz being on the west coast and all they usually don't release announcements before 20:00 cest.
second, they said that "the second set of changes will be available for testing on the week of July 15th", so it's not necessarily going to be today.

pzlama333

United States275 Posts

July 15 2019 15:50 GMT

#337

Just realize that there is a major bug: infested terran's anti-air weapon ignore armor at all.

skdsk

138 Posts

July 15 2019 17:11 GMT

#338

On July 15 2019 20:33 DrunkenSCV wrote:
I think it's just very bad for the game when some races have such powerful tools like nydus, warp prism, infestors, swarm hosts and some others. A unit with 200 mineral cost shouldn't be as much of a threat as it is rn, it's ridiculous. A unit that costs 50/50 shouldn't be able to teleport a whole army anywhere you want. They did not want terran to spam Ravens - good point. What about infestors now?
Just fix all these broken units. Not just warp prism. SC2 could be so much more fun this way.

agree, nydus is just ridiculous late game, imagine if terran could do medivac doom drop with no risk whatsoever, thats exactly what zergs can do with 50/50 unit and no supply cost ...

FFW_Rude

France10201 Posts

July 15 2019 17:26 GMT

#339

On July 15 2019 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote:

Show nested quote +

I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor.