• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:26
CEST 22:26
KST 05:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202545RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 732 users

Community Update - July 2, 2019

Forum Index > SC2 General
343 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 16 17 18 Next All
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
July 01 2019 22:22 GMT
#1
[image loading]

source


Hey everyone,

Over the past few months, we’ve been tracking tournament results and following discussions around the TvP and ZvP matchups and the strength of Protoss in general. What we’ve seen from tournaments tells a somewhat mixed story—overall global tournament winrates have remained close, with Protoss even arguably underperforming in the WCS circuit. At the same time, however, the most recent offline Korean leagues have seen unusually high Protoss representation.

While the results might paint a picture of Protoss strength, we don’t believe they tell the whole story. Rather, what we find more concerning and what we are focusing on for our next update is how players view and talk about the Protoss matchups. In both TvP and ZvP, discussions seem to boil down to how binary either matchup feels. In TvP, while Tank timing-pushes feel strong, Terrans say they feel disadvantaged as the game progresses. In ZvP, while Zerg players struggle with scouting and responding to Protoss’ various openings, professional-level Protoss players often give feedback that they’re the ones who are disadvantaged in the late game.

As a general rule, we believe that it’s perfectly healthy and even desirable that certain races have advantages over others at different stages of the game. (In a designer’s ideal world, all races would have different types of advantages at all stages; e.g., direct army strength vs. harass potential.) The concern in the current metagame comes when players feel like there is a clearly identifiable point early in the game when the advantage swaps from one race to the other, and the race that perceives themselves at the disadvantage feels they have insufficient options to disrupt this outcome.

With these principles in mind, we’d like to test some changes on the testing tab to gather feedback for an upcoming balance update. This time, we’ll be trying something new as we plan to release two sets of changes for testing. We believe both sets could result in positive improvements, but as they alter different aspects of the game, we’re interested in your feedback before we determine what the best options are. The first (and more experimental) set of test changes will be available today, and the second set of changes will be available for testing on the week of July 15th.

TERRAN

  • Stimpack upgrade research duration decreased from 121 to 100 seconds.


In early Wings of Liberty, we increased the research duration of the Stimpack upgrade in order to temper the strength of 3-rax openers in TvP, which at the time was difficult for Protoss players to defend against, especially at lower levels. Fast forward to today, where the addition of Adepts and Shield Batteries, along with changes to Stalkers and starting economy, have drastically altered the build’s dynamics. That said, a common complaint in TvP is Terran’s difficulty in punishing a fast Protoss third, and we believe a revert to this change could help to address it by:

  • Creating new openers that Protoss will have to account for.
  • Allowing Terran to more seamlessly transition from tech-based openings to a Bio-based mid-game.
  • And perhaps most importantly: reducing the window in which the upgrade can be sniped.


Our concerns surrounding this change revolve around overly increasing the power of 2-base Tank all-ins in TvP as a side-effect, and overly impacting TvZ, partly by effectively speeding up the timing at which Combat Shields comes online.

  • New upgrade: Enhanced Shockwaves: Increases the radius of the Ghost’s EMP Round from 1.5 to 2. Cost: 150/150. Research time: 79 seconds.


We receive a lot of feedback on why TvP is perceived to favor Protoss in the late game, and a constant throughout is the raw direct strength of the late-game Protoss army. We believe the proposed change will not only help Terran in direct engagements, but also shift the age-old zoning relationship between Ghosts and Templar a bit more in the Ghost’s favor.

Our decision to try this change out as an upgrade instead of a baked-in improvement stems from not wanting to impact the strength of 3-base Terran all-ins in TvP or Templar-based mid games. Even as an upgrade, we’ll be monitoring the effects of this change closely, as it would also impact TvZ, a matchup where Ghosts are already perceived to be a very powerful late-game unit.

ZERG


  • Infested Terran Infested Rockets damage decreased from 14 to 12.


The feedback we’ve received surrounding Zerg’s perceived late-game advantage in ZvP centers a lot around Infested Terrans and their ability to fight Interceptors. As part of patch 4.0, we gave Infested Terrans a more powerful anti-air weapon precisely for this purpose, but after the Carrier changes last year, we’d like to adjust the power of the Infested Terran accordingly. After this change, it’ll take an additional shot for Infested Terrans to kill Interceptors at most upgrade levels.

PROTOSS


  • Carrier Interceptor build time decreased from 11 seconds to 9 seconds.


For similar reasons as above, we’d like to scale back the increase to the Interceptor’s build time from last year’s post-BlizzCon patch. Combined with the Infested Terran change, we’ll keep an eye how much the needle will move in terms of Protoss’s ability to fight Zerg in the late game.

  • Nexus Strategic Recall cooldown increased from 85 to 130 seconds.


While it’s cool that Protoss can utilize Strategic Recall to reposition their armies between their bases, we believe they can currently do so too frequently. This change is intended to more punish Protoss players who are consistently out of position against multi-pronged harass.

  • Warp Prisms no longer start with the Warp Conduit passive ability and warp-ins will take 11 seconds when not near a Warp Gate or Nexus, up from 4.
  • The Gravitic Drive upgrade now has the additional functionality of granting Warp Prisms the Warp Conduit passive ability, reducing warp-in time from 11 to 4.


Currently, the discourse surrounding ZvP seems to center primarily around the number of powerful early-game Protoss openings. Not only does Protoss have a high number of tech options, they also have many of variations of Immortal all-ins that require different responses. Though we believe all these attacks to be theoretically defendable, the margin of error for the defender might be too low.

There are a few ways to address this, such as improving Zerg early-game scouting or weakening some of Protoss’ early-game options. For the first iteration of the testing tab, however, we’d like to try a more experimental change intended to reinforce the concept of defender’s advantage in all Protoss matchups.

Defender’s advantage is a tricky thing to balance in an RTS, as shifting it too much in favor of the attacker creates overly aggressive games. Meanwhile, shifting it too much in favor of the defender results in more turtle situations. Currently, we believe PvZ is in a state where defender’s advantage is not sufficient for the Zerg player in the early game, when scouting can often be limited to a Zergling running into the Protoss army exiting their base. Because of the short response time and Protoss’ fast warp-in mechanic, the sum of Zerg’s defender’s advantages at that point may not be enough.

Another example of low defender’s advantage is the PvP matchup where both sides to have access to similar reinforcement time with Gateway units. While the defender has better access to Stargate and Robotics unit reinforcements, Gateway units have become more powerful over time and thus better equipped to deal with low numbers of high-tech units. We feel this can inhibit players from feeling safe enough to invest in establishing more bases over more units. With these changes, we believe games are more likely to pass the 3-base mark and Robotics Bay-based play could become more common.

For all these perceived benefits, we acknowledge that this is one of the riskiest mid-year changes we’ve ever proposed. First and foremost, we’re concerned that this change might be too heavy-handed and would overly neuter Protoss all-ins. And while this change more directly and obviously hurts Protoss all-ins, it also weakens macro play both by reducing the threat of potential attacks and reducing the strength of warp-in harass. In PvT in particular, we also have concerns that this change could further push Protoss towards the already very popular Robotics Bay openers.

All these concerns notwithstanding, even if this change does not make the final cut, we think there is value in spurring discussion within the community. We look forwarding in hearing what you have to say not only about this change, but about the entire package proposed today.

–StarCraft II Team
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-06 01:07:00
July 01 2019 22:29 GMT
#2
Poll: nerfed prisms?

Hurray! (461)
 
76%

Finally! (142)
 
24%

603 total votes

Your vote: nerfed prisms?

(Vote): Hurray!
(Vote): Finally!



Nah but seriously, I really like this change. It needs testing because it's extreme but I think it's for the best
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
nomicrowin1
Profile Joined August 2018
5 Posts
July 01 2019 22:31 GMT
#3
Thanks Obama
Snakestyle11
Profile Joined December 2018
191 Posts
July 01 2019 22:33 GMT
#4
Thank god they finally realize defender advantage is non existent in ZvP. It took years, but finally...

I agree with all the changes, but i hope they are careful with reverting too many nerfs to the carriers and its counter play. I hope they dont forget they just greatly increased carriers HP, making them tankier vs corruptors. If they revert interceptor build time too much and nerf infested terran too much, carriers might become stronger than ever in the first place.

They now have more HP than last year, and i think they build faster? Id much rather see tweak to the tempests. Its a easy to balance unit compared to carriers, and tempests are currently terrible.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-01 22:39:24
July 01 2019 22:36 GMT
#5
Woah big changes. We'll see if the stim change actually helps terran overall, or just makes tank timings even stronger.
DreamlnCode
Profile Joined December 2018
United Kingdom77 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-01 22:37:59
July 01 2019 22:37 GMT
#6
Is this real life?

I think we are going to need popcorn after this post.
ilikeredheads
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1995 Posts
July 01 2019 22:38 GMT
#7
I wish they would reduce warp prism's pick up range though
Terra1
Profile Joined June 2018
Philippines312 Posts
July 01 2019 22:39 GMT
#8
Wow, as a Protoss player, I agree with the changes even if it's quite a big hit for P, given many tournament results being Protoss. Recall nerf, Stim buff (100 seconds) and the warp prism. I agree too with the state of ZvP being P favoured a lot.

Just a question guys, how bout Immortals? With the prism being nerfed, are Immortals still gonna be another reason to complain the state of ZvP or nah?
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33369 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-01 22:44:50
July 01 2019 22:41 GMT
#9
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
SoupedUpHellion
Profile Joined January 2019
20 Posts
July 01 2019 22:44 GMT
#10
omg YAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I LOVE YOU GUYS
Miralem Ibrahim
Profile Joined April 2019
40 Posts
July 01 2019 22:47 GMT
#11
God exists.
Xamo
Profile Joined April 2012
Spain877 Posts
July 01 2019 22:51 GMT
#12
RIP protoss.
My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15937 Posts
July 01 2019 22:53 GMT
#13
Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay.
They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Brutaxilos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2624 Posts
July 01 2019 23:00 GMT
#14
Link is dead for me now. Is it dead for anyone else?
Jangbi favorite player. Forever~ CJ herO the King of IEM. BOMBERRRRRRRR. Sexy Boy Rogue. soO #1! Oliveira China Represent!
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16063 Posts
July 01 2019 23:01 GMT
#15
I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.

Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.

Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.

Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Need
Profile Joined March 2019
566 Posts
July 01 2019 23:02 GMT
#16
Good, recall was way too silly and fast warp-ins were invalidating defender's advantage. Pick-up range remains silly, but Protoss is just fundamentally silly by design anyway
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
July 01 2019 23:16 GMT
#17
On July 02 2019 07:39 Terra1 wrote:
Wow, as a Protoss player, I agree with the changes even if it's quite a big hit for P, given many tournament results being Protoss. Recall nerf, Stim buff (100 seconds) and the warp prism. I agree too with the state of ZvP being P favoured a lot.

Just a question guys, how bout Immortals? With the prism being nerfed, are Immortals still gonna be another reason to complain the state of ZvP or nah?

the immortal and pick up range are needed to defense roach roach all in from zerg players
ZvP was slightly zerg favored in 2018 because of that build if i recall correctly
besides that i agree with the balance team s late game approach.the recent result shows dat late game isnt that hugely favored toward one race until ultra late late game but that is rare
for ZvP,i think infes and carrier changes aint gonna do anything to help potato carrier and P s late game but those changes encourage moar people to play late game which is good for collecting moar late game data
for TvP ? i dont know ghost buff seems all right but stim buff should help early game but also could have terran players invent moar all in build
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-01 23:22:58
July 01 2019 23:17 GMT
#18
Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
July 01 2019 23:18 GMT
#19
On July 02 2019 08:00 Brutaxilos wrote:
Link is dead for me now. Is it dead for anyone else?

Worked for me just now
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
KarlSiegt
Profile Joined December 2011
Italy35 Posts
July 01 2019 23:23 GMT
#20
Protoss Players should boicott this horrible game.

Italia
1 2 3 4 5 16 17 18 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 13h 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .299
Nathanias 161
BRAT_OK 58
ForJumy 21
StarCraft: Brood War
TT1 19
Sexy 9
Bale 6
Dota 2
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Fnx 775
Stewie2K654
flusha273
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe55
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu527
Other Games
tarik_tv4638
Grubby3618
FrodaN1800
C9.Mang0179
Sick34
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta89
• StrangeGG 49
• HeavenSC 26
• poizon28 25
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 28
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22645
League of Legends
• Nemesis5122
• TFBlade1152
Other Games
• imaqtpie1201
• Shiphtur384
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
13h 34m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 14h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.