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Community Update - July 2, 2019 - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
343 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 16 17 18 Next All
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States583 Posts
July 02 2019 00:26 GMT
#41
waiting this to long hear about how terran whiners influence the balance patches.

great times.
Psychonian
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2322 Posts
July 02 2019 00:28 GMT
#42
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote:
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o

I 100% agree. I saw a couple times a 100 supply Protoss hold off a maxed out roach ravager Zerg at HSC, and while I realize that Protoss is supposed to be supply efficient and RR is the most supply inefficient comp in the game, 40 army supply beating 120 should be something that happens once or twice a year, not once or twice a tournament.
Trans Rights
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-02 00:35:47
July 02 2019 00:29 GMT
#43
On July 02 2019 09:21 seemsgood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 09:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.

That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.

If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.


The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.

Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 09:10 Nakajin wrote:
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.

That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.

If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.


Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there.
It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.



blizz never mentioned about low league players tho.
they said it was because the game ending factor of the window mine but you guys must know that there is no different between a visible WM and the invisible one after blowing up your whole mineral line.
there is literally no different and you cant do anything but quit da game
i think they misunderstood what does "game ending factor" mean.
you dont kill the visible pesky WM after losing 10-12 wokers and continue playing,you just quit


Oh I don't remember the patch in question, I was just assuming they talked about it, but as far as a single WM killing half your mineral line at some point that's on the player, it's not like a hellion drops would be less damaging, if you don't see it you don't see it.

It was a problem before because a lot of the time Protoss had no detection to beat the firsts WM so it got to shot multiple time. I think it was more that as far as game ending factor goes, you had to react to WM a bunch of time, remember the timing on the recharge ect...
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
MrFreeman
Profile Joined January 2015
207 Posts
July 02 2019 00:42 GMT
#44
Darn, I really dislike the AA nerf to infestors, especially since lategame mech is already pain to deal with, and even ghost buff on top of it, darn .
RealityTheGreat
Profile Joined January 2018
China564 Posts
July 02 2019 00:47 GMT
#45
Warp prism nerf YES!
Betrayed, forgotten, abandoned.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
July 02 2019 00:52 GMT
#46
On July 02 2019 09:21 seemsgood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 09:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.

That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.

If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.


The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.

Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 09:10 Nakajin wrote:
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.

That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.

If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.


Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there.
It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.



blizz never mentioned about low league players tho.
they said it was because the game ending factor of the window mine but you guys must know that there is no different between a visible WM and the invisible one after blowing up your whole mineral line.
there is literally no different and you cant do anything but quit da game
i think they misunderstood what does "game ending factor" mean.
you dont kill the visible pesky WM after losing 10-12 wokers and continue playing,you just quit


The difference is that before even when you didn't take too much damage from the initial widow mine shots you could still lose because you only have one revelation on your oracle and there's mines still invisible in both your mineral lines. Or because you had two revelations, but immediately afterwards terran dropped another batch of mines. Or because you made the mistake of opening twilight.
Moonerz
Profile Joined March 2014
United States444 Posts
July 02 2019 00:53 GMT
#47
Stim research is a huge change. It will hopefully allow T some more aggro openers without letting the Toss or Zerg get free eco because they know stim is miles away. Interested to see how 2-1-1 goes vs Z now with earlier stim tho...
Snakestyle11
Profile Joined December 2018
191 Posts
July 02 2019 01:03 GMT
#48
On July 02 2019 09:53 Moonerz wrote:
Stim research is a huge change. It will hopefully allow T some more aggro openers without letting the Toss or Zerg get free eco because they know stim is miles away. Interested to see how 2-1-1 goes vs Z now with earlier stim tho...


Doesnt 2-1-1 hit as soon as the medivacs complete anyways? All it will change is they will get combat shield sooner, but i dont think the timing will be earlier at all.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
July 02 2019 01:03 GMT
#49
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote:
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o


People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.

P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States583 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-02 01:31:46
July 02 2019 01:29 GMT
#50
On July 02 2019 10:03 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote:
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o


People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.

P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.


carriers are still gonna suck, the only "buff" they are getting is a 2 seconds change. When carriers were viable they were building interceptors every 6 seconds.

And the infestor nerf isn't enough of a nerf either to make the balloon viable, infestors need to be 3 supply or something (the problem is neuro).

a couple vipers, infestors and broodlords will still beat everything toss has.
Vutalisk
Profile Joined August 2016
United States680 Posts
July 02 2019 01:41 GMT
#51
Random stimpack research time buff. Random carrier buff after we finally have a little break of mass carriers.
Seriously, does Blizzard even employ balance team anymore or one person just does the whole balance work?

The recent Blizzard shakeup really did some serious blow to SC2 team over there.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16070 Posts
July 02 2019 01:43 GMT
#52
On July 02 2019 10:03 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote:
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o


People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.

P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.


Yea and besides Wax is overreacting to how common and easy Immortal/Prism micro is. It might be overhyped in broadcasts for how common it is, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it's as easy as landing a Fungal Growth in the Infestor/Broodlord era.

For the longest time the only barrier of entry into playing Protoss properly from a micro perspective was Blink and Adepts. The Warp Prism gives Protoss a higher skill floor just on its own. That's good for the game. Whether or not there are fair counters to it, is a whole other story.

But just straight up gutting it, doesn't seem like a smart idea. As far as the Warp Ins are concerned, the Prism still functions the way it should, it just nerfs the timings of specific builds as well as increase the level of commitment a Protoss move out in the midgame requires (combined with the Recall nerf). Those changes are more targetted and specific rather than just nerfing the ability to micro units.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
July 02 2019 01:48 GMT
#53
On July 02 2019 10:41 Vutalisk wrote:
Random stimpack research time buff. Random carrier buff after we finally have a little break of mass carriers.
Seriously, does Blizzard even employ balance team anymore or one person just does the whole balance work?

The recent Blizzard shakeup really did some serious blow to SC2 team over there.


The stim buff is not random. did you even read the post? Its supposed to allow terrans to punish early thirds easier and hold back allins and timing attacks easier as well. It might even open the door to bio openings in tvp.

the carrior buff is very small and prob wont effect anything
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16070 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-02 02:13:57
July 02 2019 01:52 GMT
#54
On July 02 2019 10:48 Wrathsc2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 10:41 Vutalisk wrote:
Random stimpack research time buff. Random carrier buff after we finally have a little break of mass carriers.
Seriously, does Blizzard even employ balance team anymore or one person just does the whole balance work?

The recent Blizzard shakeup really did some serious blow to SC2 team over there.


The stim buff is not random. did you even read the post? Its supposed to allow terrans to punish early thirds easier and hold back allins and timing attacks easier as well. It might even open the door to bio openings in tvp.

the carrior buff is very small and prob wont effect anything


By itself it doesn't do anything but combined with the Infested Terran nerf it's meant to make late game PvZ more even, where now it seems very Zerg favored.

Considering that Protoss is getting hit with pretty significant midgame nerfs with these changes, making sure that their late game is viable vs Zerg becomes very important.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
July 02 2019 02:29 GMT
#55
How does recall nerf change the tempest vs BC dynamic? Looks like TJ is 71s cooldown, mothership recall is 100s, and nexus recall is 85s -> 130, so should barely still be able to dodge BC jumps with a mothership right? Might be a bit tighter than before
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
Cluster__
Profile Joined September 2013
United States328 Posts
July 02 2019 02:30 GMT
#56
stim change seems bad
Liquid`Snute, AcerScarlett, ROOTCatZ, MC, Maru, Soulkey, Losira
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8231 Posts
July 02 2019 02:35 GMT
#57
ABOUT TIME
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33371 Posts
July 02 2019 02:37 GMT
#58
On July 02 2019 10:43 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 10:03 Cyro wrote:
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote:
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o


People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.

P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.


Yea and besides Wax is overreacting to how common and easy Immortal/Prism micro is. It might be overhyped in broadcasts for how common it is, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it's as easy as landing a Fungal Growth in the Infestor/Broodlord era.


Guys, did you know there's a middle ground between removing an interaction from the game and leaving it 100% intact?
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-02 02:44:44
July 02 2019 02:43 GMT
#59
Warp prism needed a nerf, not sure about recall but but maybe they seem too radical to me.
Buffing carriers and nerfing Infested Terran are steps in the right direction, let's see how effective they will be.

Ghosts' new upgrade could be good but I am worried for TvZ, Stim change seems instead not necessary and I fear this could create super op timings.

Protoss didn't win Code S last season, now we seriously risk to see Terran steamrolling everyone and everything.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16070 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-02 03:02:33
July 02 2019 03:01 GMT
#60
On July 02 2019 11:37 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2019 10:43 Vindicare605 wrote:
On July 02 2019 10:03 Cyro wrote:
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote:
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o


People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.

P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.


Yea and besides Wax is overreacting to how common and easy Immortal/Prism micro is. It might be overhyped in broadcasts for how common it is, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it's as easy as landing a Fungal Growth in the Infestor/Broodlord era.


Guys, did you know there's a middle ground between removing an interaction from the game and leaving it 100% intact?


They arent leaving it intact though, they are just nerfing the interaction indirectly by focusing on the other aspect of the unit.

If Protoss has a slower warp in time, they'll need to be much more selective about when to use the juggling aspect of the Prism and when to deploy it to warp in reinforcements. Those extra seconds that the warp ins require mean the Prism is more vulnerable, meaning Protoss will want to deploy it farther back, meaning it cant juggle frontline units.

It's a more elegant solution IMO. It encourages Protoss to bring more than one Warp Prism, it nerfs the timings on the builds we all pretty much agre are a problem, and they do all of that without touching the pick up range that makes the Immortal Micro so good.


aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
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