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On July 02 2019 08:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
yeah they need to really consider changing the current map pool if stim buff goes through
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On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote:
Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT.
They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes.
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On July 02 2019 08:27 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote:
Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup. But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT. They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes.
I'd rather see all-ins than carriers-heavy late game tbh
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I agree that protoss is strong with the immortal all in BUT as a protoss player i dont always want or need to build a robobay in games and i think that the warp prism warp in speed should be seperate and on the cybercore
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On July 02 2019 08:29 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:27 Snakestyle11 wrote:On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote:
Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup. But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT. They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes. I'd rather see all-ins than carriers-heavy late game tbh
you wont anyway.those changes dont make carrier a massable unit like last year,protoss still need tempests
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On July 02 2019 08:37 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:29 Need wrote:On July 02 2019 08:27 Snakestyle11 wrote:On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote:
Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup. But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT. They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes. I'd rather see all-ins than carriers-heavy late game tbh you wont anyway.those changes dont make carrier a massable unit like last year,protoss still need tempests
Yeah I just hope they don't insist on this direction to fix late game via carrier buffs. Anything that encourages death ball stalemates in late game is bad
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On July 02 2019 08:27 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
yeah they need to really consider changing the current map pool if stim buff goes through
Blizz has been leaving the map pool mostly up to the community, and since tank pushes on thirds or naturals from the low ground has been a staple of their play since forever it would make sense that map makers would be familiar with how best to counter them.
However as with all map related changes, a single map feature rarely interacts with just one strategy. By making it harder for Terrans to attack naturals with Siege Tanks, you're also going to be changing other interactions as well.
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On July 02 2019 07:53 Charoisaur wrote:
Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay.
They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players
There's nothing fun or active about fast prism warp-ins and that's what they're nerfing. Prism juggling stays exactly the same.
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On July 02 2019 08:43 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:27 seemsgood wrote:On July 02 2019 08:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
yeah they need to really consider changing the current map pool if stim buff goes through Blizz has been leaving the map pool mostly up to the community, and since tank pushes on thirds or naturals from the low ground has been a staple of their play since forever it would make sense that map makers would be familiar with how best to counter them. However as with all map related changes, a single map feature rarely interacts with just one strategy. By making it harder for Terrans to attack naturals with Siege Tanks, you're also going to be changing other interactions as well.
Blizz picks the maps that go onto ladder. And given the wide variety of maps produced by the community, Blizzard can essentially make map pools whatever they want.
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Canada8989 Posts
Very nice idea being thrown out there, stim recherch and EMP is a neat way to go.
I'm afraid the protoss nerf are a bit much tho, maybe a blink recherch buff (as in reducing the time of the upgrade) would be an option? It's gonna be hard for them to have unit out in the map as toss with the faster stim + the worst WP, a faster blink could give them another offensive option and switch up the builds a bit too.
Still great update, if it does go forward, it will take a while for the meta to settle since it would be a pretty big patch (aka Protoss are probably gonna get stomp at the start) but I don't think there is anything too crazy.
I think the WP idea is a good way to go.
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overall nice patch, i am excited to see how this will influence the meta!
one thing i worry about though, is zerg PvT meta (not balance!).
zerg seem to favor early-mid game push that involves massing ling/bling/roach (though the new warp prism might change that). i would like to see some power transfered from those strategies into mid-late game, possibly through roach nerf (cost?) and infestors buff.
i don't mind the infestors nerf, aimed at making carriers valid, but i would like a buff to go along with it, for example allowing infested terrans to hatch with full hp from a damaged egg or radius buff to fungel.
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Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
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Awesome. So stim/tank pushes / allins are going to be even harder to defend. Archon drops will be null and void due to slow warpin. I love how they admit protoss has been up and down but yet we get the bulk of the nerfs if they end up sticking. EMP is really strong too, and now you're going to increase the radius on it even more! Not sure how the stim buff will affect TVZ but it could be game breaking to that matchup as well.
Man the power of Terran Tears. Really gets Blizzard to act huh.
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On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.
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WP change is insane. Remember when Protoss could literally fast warp in from a random pylon on the map? Now Protoss won't have any fast non-defensive warp in until a robo bay lol, this change is bigger than anything that came from last year's "end of year" patch. Will see how it plays out, but on paper it seems absurd. I knew they'd do something to the prism but this a genuine reset of every Protoss build invented in LotV, particularly in PvZ.
In contrast, the other changes are surprisingly good. Stim takes way too long to build which has always been the issue when transiting back into bio after a tech opening in TvP, but you almost always want to be going for a tech opening in TvP because they are just way better than any 2/3 rax opening. Added to the fact that it's easily sniped, this is a good change cos no-one likes to see a game just end because a Protoss player blinked into the base and sniped a tech lab (although I'm sure it'll suck a lot). Maybe it'll make 3 rax better too but I think the main thing is it'll tide over that transition better. TvP is always a case of being bullied by Protoss in the early game because of how useless the units are until stim is finished. I'm sure someone will find a way to abuse the quick stim for a timing but for now, this is a good change conceptually. I don't forsee issues in TvZ either since 2/1/1 still has to wait for the medivacs anyway so the quicker stim won't be a huge deal.
EMP change is just nice, just seems like a good change.
The PvZ late game changes are nice too. I like how they are impactful but not overly crazy. PvZ has been such a crazy mess this year that we still don't have that much good data when it comes to late game. Maybe we'll see more of it with these changes so there can be a bigger pool of games to work with. Ofc, it tends to feel really hard for Protoss to bet Zerg in late game, but everything before that feels pretty strong for Protoss so I don't think they should rush out any crazy "fixes" to the late game.
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I'm excited to see some changes to the game and see what happens to the meta. ZvP and PvP were far too stale for a healthy game and I'm glad it's finally being addressed.
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Canada8989 Posts
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there.
It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.
Also Blizzard forum comment section has a bunch of people asking for cannon rush nerf, it's really like it's still 2012 for these people.
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On July 02 2019 08:23 KarlSiegt wrote:
Protoss Players should boicott this horrible game.
Please close the door when you exit.
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On July 02 2019 09:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades. The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.
On July 02 2019 09:10 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades. Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there. It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.
blizz never mentioned about low league players tho.
they said it was because the game ending factor of the window mine but you guys must know that there is no different between a visible WM and the invisible one after blowing up your whole mineral line.
there is literally no different and you cant do anything but quit da game
i think they misunderstood what does "game ending factor" mean.
you dont kill the visible pesky WM after losing 10-12 wokers and continue playing,you just quit
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RIP Protoss 
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EPT
