Over the past few months, we’ve been tracking tournament results and following discussions around the TvP and ZvP matchups and the strength of Protoss in general. What we’ve seen from tournaments tells a somewhat mixed story—overall global tournament winrates have remained close, with Protoss even arguably underperforming in the WCS circuit. At the same time, however, the most recent offline Korean leagues have seen unusually high Protoss representation.
While the results might paint a picture of Protoss strength, we don’t believe they tell the whole story. Rather, what we find more concerning and what we are focusing on for our next update is how players view and talk about the Protoss matchups. In both TvP and ZvP, discussions seem to boil down to how binary either matchup feels. In TvP, while Tank timing-pushes feel strong, Terrans say they feel disadvantaged as the game progresses. In ZvP, while Zerg players struggle with scouting and responding to Protoss’ various openings, professional-level Protoss players often give feedback that they’re the ones who are disadvantaged in the late game.
As a general rule, we believe that it’s perfectly healthy and even desirable that certain races have advantages over others at different stages of the game. (In a designer’s ideal world, all races would have different types of advantages at all stages; e.g., direct army strength vs. harass potential.) The concern in the current metagame comes when players feel like there is a clearly identifiable point early in the game when the advantage swaps from one race to the other, and the race that perceives themselves at the disadvantage feels they have insufficient options to disrupt this outcome.
With these principles in mind, we’d like to test some changes on the testing tab to gather feedback for an upcoming balance update. This time, we’ll be trying something new as we plan to release two sets of changes for testing. We believe both sets could result in positive improvements, but as they alter different aspects of the game, we’re interested in your feedback before we determine what the best options are. The first (and more experimental) set of test changes will be available today, and the second set of changes will be available for testing on the week of July 15th.
TERRAN
Stimpack upgrade research duration decreased from 121 to 100 seconds.
In early Wings of Liberty, we increased the research duration of the Stimpack upgrade in order to temper the strength of 3-rax openers in TvP, which at the time was difficult for Protoss players to defend against, especially at lower levels. Fast forward to today, where the addition of Adepts and Shield Batteries, along with changes to Stalkers and starting economy, have drastically altered the build’s dynamics. That said, a common complaint in TvP is Terran’s difficulty in punishing a fast Protoss third, and we believe a revert to this change could help to address it by:
Creating new openers that Protoss will have to account for.
Allowing Terran to more seamlessly transition from tech-based openings to a Bio-based mid-game.
And perhaps most importantly: reducing the window in which the upgrade can be sniped.
Our concerns surrounding this change revolve around overly increasing the power of 2-base Tank all-ins in TvP as a side-effect, and overly impacting TvZ, partly by effectively speeding up the timing at which Combat Shields comes online.
New upgrade: Enhanced Shockwaves: Increases the radius of the Ghost’s EMP Round from 1.5 to 2. Cost: 150/150. Research time: 79 seconds.
We receive a lot of feedback on why TvP is perceived to favor Protoss in the late game, and a constant throughout is the raw direct strength of the late-game Protoss army. We believe the proposed change will not only help Terran in direct engagements, but also shift the age-old zoning relationship between Ghosts and Templar a bit more in the Ghost’s favor.
Our decision to try this change out as an upgrade instead of a baked-in improvement stems from not wanting to impact the strength of 3-base Terran all-ins in TvP or Templar-based mid games. Even as an upgrade, we’ll be monitoring the effects of this change closely, as it would also impact TvZ, a matchup where Ghosts are already perceived to be a very powerful late-game unit.
ZERG
Infested Terran Infested Rockets damage decreased from 14 to 12.
The feedback we’ve received surrounding Zerg’s perceived late-game advantage in ZvP centers a lot around Infested Terrans and their ability to fight Interceptors. As part of patch 4.0, we gave Infested Terrans a more powerful anti-air weapon precisely for this purpose, but after the Carrier changes last year, we’d like to adjust the power of the Infested Terran accordingly. After this change, it’ll take an additional shot for Infested Terrans to kill Interceptors at most upgrade levels.
PROTOSS
Carrier Interceptor build time decreased from 11 seconds to 9 seconds.
For similar reasons as above, we’d like to scale back the increase to the Interceptor’s build time from last year’s post-BlizzCon patch. Combined with the Infested Terran change, we’ll keep an eye how much the needle will move in terms of Protoss’s ability to fight Zerg in the late game.
Nexus Strategic Recall cooldown increased from 85 to 130 seconds.
While it’s cool that Protoss can utilize Strategic Recall to reposition their armies between their bases, we believe they can currently do so too frequently. This change is intended to more punish Protoss players who are consistently out of position against multi-pronged harass.
Warp Prisms no longer start with the Warp Conduit passive ability and warp-ins will take 11 seconds when not near a Warp Gate or Nexus, up from 4.
The Gravitic Drive upgrade now has the additional functionality of granting Warp Prisms the Warp Conduit passive ability, reducing warp-in time from 11 to 4.
Currently, the discourse surrounding ZvP seems to center primarily around the number of powerful early-game Protoss openings. Not only does Protoss have a high number of tech options, they also have many of variations of Immortal all-ins that require different responses. Though we believe all these attacks to be theoretically defendable, the margin of error for the defender might be too low.
There are a few ways to address this, such as improving Zerg early-game scouting or weakening some of Protoss’ early-game options. For the first iteration of the testing tab, however, we’d like to try a more experimental change intended to reinforce the concept of defender’s advantage in all Protoss matchups.
Defender’s advantage is a tricky thing to balance in an RTS, as shifting it too much in favor of the attacker creates overly aggressive games. Meanwhile, shifting it too much in favor of the defender results in more turtle situations. Currently, we believe PvZ is in a state where defender’s advantage is not sufficient for the Zerg player in the early game, when scouting can often be limited to a Zergling running into the Protoss army exiting their base. Because of the short response time and Protoss’ fast warp-in mechanic, the sum of Zerg’s defender’s advantages at that point may not be enough.
Another example of low defender’s advantage is the PvP matchup where both sides to have access to similar reinforcement time with Gateway units. While the defender has better access to Stargate and Robotics unit reinforcements, Gateway units have become more powerful over time and thus better equipped to deal with low numbers of high-tech units. We feel this can inhibit players from feeling safe enough to invest in establishing more bases over more units. With these changes, we believe games are more likely to pass the 3-base mark and Robotics Bay-based play could become more common.
For all these perceived benefits, we acknowledge that this is one of the riskiest mid-year changes we’ve ever proposed. First and foremost, we’re concerned that this change might be too heavy-handed and would overly neuter Protoss all-ins. And while this change more directly and obviously hurts Protoss all-ins, it also weakens macro play both by reducing the threat of potential attacks and reducing the strength of warp-in harass. In PvT in particular, we also have concerns that this change could further push Protoss towards the already very popular Robotics Bay openers.
All these concerns notwithstanding, even if this change does not make the final cut, we think there is value in spurring discussion within the community. We look forwarding in hearing what you have to say not only about this change, but about the entire package proposed today.
Thank god they finally realize defender advantage is non existent in ZvP. It took years, but finally...
I agree with all the changes, but i hope they are careful with reverting too many nerfs to the carriers and its counter play. I hope they dont forget they just greatly increased carriers HP, making them tankier vs corruptors. If they revert interceptor build time too much and nerf infested terran too much, carriers might become stronger than ever in the first place.
They now have more HP than last year, and i think they build faster? Id much rather see tweak to the tempests. Its a easy to balance unit compared to carriers, and tempests are currently terrible.
Wow, as a Protoss player, I agree with the changes even if it's quite a big hit for P, given many tournament results being Protoss. Recall nerf, Stim buff (100 seconds) and the warp prism. I agree too with the state of ZvP being P favoured a lot.
Just a question guys, how bout Immortals? With the prism being nerfed, are Immortals still gonna be another reason to complain the state of ZvP or nah?
Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay. They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players
I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
Good, recall was way too silly and fast warp-ins were invalidating defender's advantage. Pick-up range remains silly, but Protoss is just fundamentally silly by design anyway
On July 02 2019 07:39 Terra1 wrote: Wow, as a Protoss player, I agree with the changes even if it's quite a big hit for P, given many tournament results being Protoss. Recall nerf, Stim buff (100 seconds) and the warp prism. I agree too with the state of ZvP being P favoured a lot.
Just a question guys, how bout Immortals? With the prism being nerfed, are Immortals still gonna be another reason to complain the state of ZvP or nah?
the immortal and pick up range are needed to defense roach roach all in from zerg players ZvP was slightly zerg favored in 2018 because of that build if i recall correctly besides that i agree with the balance team s late game approach.the recent result shows dat late game isnt that hugely favored toward one race until ultra late late game but that is rare for ZvP,i think infes and carrier changes aint gonna do anything to help potato carrier and P s late game but those changes encourage moar people to play late game which is good for collecting moar late game data for TvP ? i dont know ghost buff seems all right but stim buff should help early game but also could have terran players invent moar all in build
Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
On July 02 2019 08:01 Vindicare605 wrote: I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
yeah they need to really consider changing the current map pool if stim buff goes through
On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote: Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT.
They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes.
On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote: Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT.
They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes.
I'd rather see all-ins than carriers-heavy late game tbh
I agree that protoss is strong with the immortal all in BUT as a protoss player i dont always want or need to build a robobay in games and i think that the warp prism warp in speed should be seperate and on the cybercore
On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote: Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT.
They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes.
I'd rather see all-ins than carriers-heavy late game tbh
you wont anyway.those changes dont make carrier a massable unit like last year,protoss still need tempests
On July 02 2019 08:17 Boggyb wrote: Zerg whining needs a huge, huge nerf. There is a distinct lack of evidence that ZvP is Protoss favored (TvP can point to GSL Super Tournament. ZvP can point to, uh, what?) and they are considering Protoss Nerfs directed at the matchup.
But there is no lack of evidence pointing to the matchup producing terrible games compared to ZvT.
They are nerfing all ins and buffing late game. Totally fair and deserved changes.
I'd rather see all-ins than carriers-heavy late game tbh
you wont anyway.those changes dont make carrier a massable unit like last year,protoss still need tempests
Yeah I just hope they don't insist on this direction to fix late game via carrier buffs. Anything that encourages death ball stalemates in late game is bad
On July 02 2019 08:01 Vindicare605 wrote: I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
yeah they need to really consider changing the current map pool if stim buff goes through
Blizz has been leaving the map pool mostly up to the community, and since tank pushes on thirds or naturals from the low ground has been a staple of their play since forever it would make sense that map makers would be familiar with how best to counter them.
However as with all map related changes, a single map feature rarely interacts with just one strategy. By making it harder for Terrans to attack naturals with Siege Tanks, you're also going to be changing other interactions as well.
On July 02 2019 07:53 Charoisaur wrote: Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay. They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players
There's nothing fun or active about fast prism warp-ins and that's what they're nerfing. Prism juggling stays exactly the same.
On July 02 2019 08:01 Vindicare605 wrote: I knew they weren't going to touch Prism range, and honestly i'm happy they went this route.
Stim buffed too is something I saw coming if they were going to REALLY address some of the main Terran complaints, however it is still a really big change and could be too strong when combined with the already powerful Tank pushes in the meta.
Ghost EMP upgrade should help extreme late game scenarios vs both races, which is nice because Snipe kind of felt like the much better spell in most situations. This should help with that.
Infested Terran nerfs and Carrier interceptors reverted seem like no brainers.
yeah they need to really consider changing the current map pool if stim buff goes through
Blizz has been leaving the map pool mostly up to the community, and since tank pushes on thirds or naturals from the low ground has been a staple of their play since forever it would make sense that map makers would be familiar with how best to counter them.
However as with all map related changes, a single map feature rarely interacts with just one strategy. By making it harder for Terrans to attack naturals with Siege Tanks, you're also going to be changing other interactions as well.
Blizz picks the maps that go onto ladder. And given the wide variety of maps produced by the community, Blizzard can essentially make map pools whatever they want.
Very nice idea being thrown out there, stim recherch and EMP is a neat way to go. I'm afraid the protoss nerf are a bit much tho, maybe a blink recherch buff (as in reducing the time of the upgrade) would be an option? It's gonna be hard for them to have unit out in the map as toss with the faster stim + the worst WP, a faster blink could give them another offensive option and switch up the builds a bit too.
Still great update, if it does go forward, it will take a while for the meta to settle since it would be a pretty big patch (aka Protoss are probably gonna get stomp at the start) but I don't think there is anything too crazy.
overall nice patch, i am excited to see how this will influence the meta! one thing i worry about though, is zerg PvT meta (not balance!). zerg seem to favor early-mid game push that involves massing ling/bling/roach (though the new warp prism might change that). i would like to see some power transfered from those strategies into mid-late game, possibly through roach nerf (cost?) and infestors buff. i don't mind the infestors nerf, aimed at making carriers valid, but i would like a buff to go along with it, for example allowing infested terrans to hatch with full hp from a damaged egg or radius buff to fungel.
Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
Awesome. So stim/tank pushes / allins are going to be even harder to defend. Archon drops will be null and void due to slow warpin. I love how they admit protoss has been up and down but yet we get the bulk of the nerfs if they end up sticking. EMP is really strong too, and now you're going to increase the radius on it even more! Not sure how the stim buff will affect TVZ but it could be game breaking to that matchup as well.
Man the power of Terran Tears. Really gets Blizzard to act huh.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.
WP change is insane. Remember when Protoss could literally fast warp in from a random pylon on the map? Now Protoss won't have any fast non-defensive warp in until a robo bay lol, this change is bigger than anything that came from last year's "end of year" patch. Will see how it plays out, but on paper it seems absurd. I knew they'd do something to the prism but this a genuine reset of every Protoss build invented in LotV, particularly in PvZ.
In contrast, the other changes are surprisingly good. Stim takes way too long to build which has always been the issue when transiting back into bio after a tech opening in TvP, but you almost always want to be going for a tech opening in TvP because they are just way better than any 2/3 rax opening. Added to the fact that it's easily sniped, this is a good change cos no-one likes to see a game just end because a Protoss player blinked into the base and sniped a tech lab (although I'm sure it'll suck a lot). Maybe it'll make 3 rax better too but I think the main thing is it'll tide over that transition better. TvP is always a case of being bullied by Protoss in the early game because of how useless the units are until stim is finished. I'm sure someone will find a way to abuse the quick stim for a timing but for now, this is a good change conceptually. I don't forsee issues in TvZ either since 2/1/1 still has to wait for the medivacs anyway so the quicker stim won't be a huge deal.
EMP change is just nice, just seems like a good change.
The PvZ late game changes are nice too. I like how they are impactful but not overly crazy. PvZ has been such a crazy mess this year that we still don't have that much good data when it comes to late game. Maybe we'll see more of it with these changes so there can be a bigger pool of games to work with. Ofc, it tends to feel really hard for Protoss to bet Zerg in late game, but everything before that feels pretty strong for Protoss so I don't think they should rush out any crazy "fixes" to the late game.
I'm excited to see some changes to the game and see what happens to the meta. ZvP and PvP were far too stale for a healthy game and I'm glad it's finally being addressed.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there. It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.
Also Blizzard forum comment section has a bunch of people asking for cannon rush nerf, it's really like it's still 2012 for these people.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there. It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.
blizz never mentioned about low league players tho. they said it was because the game ending factor of the window mine but you guys must know that there is no different between a visible WM and the invisible one after blowing up your whole mineral line. there is literally no different and you cant do anything but quit da game i think they misunderstood what does "game ending factor" mean. you dont kill the visible pesky WM after losing 10-12 wokers and continue playing,you just quit
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
I 100% agree. I saw a couple times a 100 supply Protoss hold off a maxed out roach ravager Zerg at HSC, and while I realize that Protoss is supposed to be supply efficient and RR is the most supply inefficient comp in the game, 40 army supply beating 120 should be something that happens once or twice a year, not once or twice a tournament.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there. It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.
blizz never mentioned about low league players tho. they said it was because the game ending factor of the window mine but you guys must know that there is no different between a visible WM and the invisible one after blowing up your whole mineral line. there is literally no different and you cant do anything but quit da game i think they misunderstood what does "game ending factor" mean. you dont kill the visible pesky WM after losing 10-12 wokers and continue playing,you just quit
Oh I don't remember the patch in question, I was just assuming they talked about it, but as far as a single WM killing half your mineral line at some point that's on the player, it's not like a hellion drops would be less damaging, if you don't see it you don't see it.
It was a problem before because a lot of the time Protoss had no detection to beat the firsts WM so it got to shot multiple time. I think it was more that as far as game ending factor goes, you had to react to WM a bunch of time, remember the timing on the recharge ect...
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
The main reason widow mines were nerfed was because PvTs reasonably often had non-games where players (even pros) just randomly died to the first oracles/widow mines. On top of that the oracle has been nerfed since then, so it can't be the widow mines counterpart as boogeyman in the matchup anymore.
On July 02 2019 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea the more I brainstorm it, the more I begin to doubt that the Stim change is going to last. It's a precarious change to combine in with the other Protoss nerfs to begin with, but it also has a very big impact in TvZ also which isn't the match up that needs balance adjustments right now.
That TvZ argument is the main reason I don't see this sticking around. Faster Stim, increases all of Terran Bio's ramp up speed and that's a VERY delicate thing to balance vs Zerg.
If we want to increase Terran early and midgame vs Protoss, just revert the Widow Mine change and let them be default cloaked again after firing. It was a dumb change that was focused at low level play to begin with. It's a much easier thing to implement rather than tweaking the research time of Terran's most powerful upgrades.
Invisible Widow Mine really was a problem in lower league honestly, as someone who went Bronze to Plat as T in HOTS you would be surprise the number of people who either didn't realize you needed detection for widow mine or never realize they were there. It's one thing to lose to stupid thing, as lower league player do all the time, but's it's another to not even know what is killing you.
blizz never mentioned about low league players tho. they said it was because the game ending factor of the window mine but you guys must know that there is no different between a visible WM and the invisible one after blowing up your whole mineral line. there is literally no different and you cant do anything but quit da game i think they misunderstood what does "game ending factor" mean. you dont kill the visible pesky WM after losing 10-12 wokers and continue playing,you just quit
The difference is that before even when you didn't take too much damage from the initial widow mine shots you could still lose because you only have one revelation on your oracle and there's mines still invisible in both your mineral lines. Or because you had two revelations, but immediately afterwards terran dropped another batch of mines. Or because you made the mistake of opening twilight.
Stim research is a huge change. It will hopefully allow T some more aggro openers without letting the Toss or Zerg get free eco because they know stim is miles away. Interested to see how 2-1-1 goes vs Z now with earlier stim tho...
On July 02 2019 09:53 Moonerz wrote: Stim research is a huge change. It will hopefully allow T some more aggro openers without letting the Toss or Zerg get free eco because they know stim is miles away. Interested to see how 2-1-1 goes vs Z now with earlier stim tho...
Doesnt 2-1-1 hit as soon as the medivacs complete anyways? All it will change is they will get combat shield sooner, but i dont think the timing will be earlier at all.
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.
P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.
P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.
carriers are still gonna suck, the only "buff" they are getting is a 2 seconds change. When carriers were viable they were building interceptors every 6 seconds.
And the infestor nerf isn't enough of a nerf either to make the balloon viable, infestors need to be 3 supply or something (the problem is neuro).
a couple vipers, infestors and broodlords will still beat everything toss has.
Random stimpack research time buff. Random carrier buff after we finally have a little break of mass carriers. Seriously, does Blizzard even employ balance team anymore or one person just does the whole balance work?
The recent Blizzard shakeup really did some serious blow to SC2 team over there.
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.
P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.
Yea and besides Wax is overreacting to how common and easy Immortal/Prism micro is. It might be overhyped in broadcasts for how common it is, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it's as easy as landing a Fungal Growth in the Infestor/Broodlord era.
For the longest time the only barrier of entry into playing Protoss properly from a micro perspective was Blink and Adepts. The Warp Prism gives Protoss a higher skill floor just on its own. That's good for the game. Whether or not there are fair counters to it, is a whole other story.
But just straight up gutting it, doesn't seem like a smart idea. As far as the Warp Ins are concerned, the Prism still functions the way it should, it just nerfs the timings of specific builds as well as increase the level of commitment a Protoss move out in the midgame requires (combined with the Recall nerf). Those changes are more targetted and specific rather than just nerfing the ability to micro units.
On July 02 2019 10:41 Vutalisk wrote: Random stimpack research time buff. Random carrier buff after we finally have a little break of mass carriers. Seriously, does Blizzard even employ balance team anymore or one person just does the whole balance work?
The recent Blizzard shakeup really did some serious blow to SC2 team over there.
The stim buff is not random. did you even read the post? Its supposed to allow terrans to punish early thirds easier and hold back allins and timing attacks easier as well. It might even open the door to bio openings in tvp.
the carrior buff is very small and prob wont effect anything
On July 02 2019 10:41 Vutalisk wrote: Random stimpack research time buff. Random carrier buff after we finally have a little break of mass carriers. Seriously, does Blizzard even employ balance team anymore or one person just does the whole balance work?
The recent Blizzard shakeup really did some serious blow to SC2 team over there.
The stim buff is not random. did you even read the post? Its supposed to allow terrans to punish early thirds easier and hold back allins and timing attacks easier as well. It might even open the door to bio openings in tvp.
the carrior buff is very small and prob wont effect anything
By itself it doesn't do anything but combined with the Infested Terran nerf it's meant to make late game PvZ more even, where now it seems very Zerg favored.
Considering that Protoss is getting hit with pretty significant midgame nerfs with these changes, making sure that their late game is viable vs Zerg becomes very important.
How does recall nerf change the tempest vs BC dynamic? Looks like TJ is 71s cooldown, mothership recall is 100s, and nexus recall is 85s -> 130, so should barely still be able to dodge BC jumps with a mothership right? Might be a bit tighter than before
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.
P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.
Yea and besides Wax is overreacting to how common and easy Immortal/Prism micro is. It might be overhyped in broadcasts for how common it is, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it's as easy as landing a Fungal Growth in the Infestor/Broodlord era.
Guys, did you know there's a middle ground between removing an interaction from the game and leaving it 100% intact?
Warp prism needed a nerf, not sure about recall but but maybe they seem too radical to me. Buffing carriers and nerfing Infested Terran are steps in the right direction, let's see how effective they will be.
Ghosts' new upgrade could be good but I am worried for TvZ, Stim change seems instead not necessary and I fear this could create super op timings.
Protoss didn't win Code S last season, now we seriously risk to see Terran steamrolling everyone and everything.
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
People complain when this kind of micro is very powerful, but it's way better for the game than not being able to micro and just having way stronger amove performance to compensate IMO.
P winrates will undoubtably take a dive with these changes, i think to the extent that compensation would be required but we'll see. I'm happy to see carriers as less trash unit because playing off meta to utilize them has been depressingly difficult as of late.
Yea and besides Wax is overreacting to how common and easy Immortal/Prism micro is. It might be overhyped in broadcasts for how common it is, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it's as easy as landing a Fungal Growth in the Infestor/Broodlord era.
Guys, did you know there's a middle ground between removing an interaction from the game and leaving it 100% intact?
They arent leaving it intact though, they are just nerfing the interaction indirectly by focusing on the other aspect of the unit.
If Protoss has a slower warp in time, they'll need to be much more selective about when to use the juggling aspect of the Prism and when to deploy it to warp in reinforcements. Those extra seconds that the warp ins require mean the Prism is more vulnerable, meaning Protoss will want to deploy it farther back, meaning it cant juggle frontline units.
It's a more elegant solution IMO. It encourages Protoss to bring more than one Warp Prism, it nerfs the timings on the builds we all pretty much agre are a problem, and they do all of that without touching the pick up range that makes the Immortal Micro so good.
while prism change is huge, i bet it will open protts eyes/ Prism speed is insanely good buff even withpout this change. And with it i think we will hear zt whine on prism speed in a month or even faster
Prism change is huge and fixes the age-old problem of Protoss momentum negating defender's advantage. Instant reinforcements snowball so hard; even if Zerg or Terran has an equivalent army, theirs is all spread out and just gets killed piecemeal. Removing that removes a lot of the PROTOSSED factor.
At least until prism speed is researched, that is.
Nice. Now the only standard "harassment" option left for protoss is an oracle that will at most kill 2 drones or hopefully not blow up if you control it like a korean pro and instantly dodge widow mines.
I'm looking forward to doing nothing but turtling into perhaps the oh-so-fast option of doing a 4-base storm drop OR zealot warp-in 10+ minutes into the game against terran. And probably just turtling into dying a brutal death in the late game against zerg. Yeah, right. I guess I'll just keep offracing instead...
I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
On July 02 2019 12:41 WenHe wrote: I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
I really hate to do this because I can tell English is not your first language but I truly have no idea what VB, BY, or VC are and thus pretty much have no idea what your post means.
On July 02 2019 12:41 WenHe wrote: I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
I really hate to do this because I can tell English is not your first language but I truly have no idea what VB, BY, or VC are and thus pretty much have no idea what your post means.
I was able to deduce that VB is the Robotics Support Bay. Other than that I don't know either.
PvT - protoss players will get all-inned every game, and will probably die to them vast majority of the time. random ghost buff
PvZ - going back to the good old days where zerg just steamrolls protoss all the time, except this time the carrier is a flying garbage can. lol'd hard at the carrier "buff"
supposedly the balance team talked to pro gamers and significant SC2 personalities....is this what they asked for? 9 second interceptors and WoL emp radius?
This game truly is Terrancraft. Terran's early, and potentially game ending aggression options on low economy just got stronger (in TvZ and TvP)
On July 02 2019 12:41 WenHe wrote: I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
I really hate to do this because I can tell English is not your first language but I truly have no idea what VB, BY, or VC are and thus pretty much have no idea what your post means.
Sorry, that is the custom in China. VB is the hot key of robot bay. VC is Twilight council. BY is Cyber core
On July 02 2019 12:41 WenHe wrote: I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
I really hate to do this because I can tell English is not your first language but I truly have no idea what VB, BY, or VC are and thus pretty much have no idea what your post means.
Sorry, that is the custom in China. VB is the hot key of robot bay. VC is Twilight council. BY is Cyber core
wow u really can see who is playing protoss in low leagues right now. the comments are showing some protoss-biased in here. or are they really not seeing that the changes are either black nor white?
most people tend to agree with the changes or are farsighted to see that you have to wait how it plays out.
im really happy that the balance team seems to have a clear view about the state of the game. very justifed ideas are pictured. the possible disadvantages are also reasonable and comprehensible painted.
I really love the change regarding the warp prism. I love that they are FINALLY acknowledging that this unit broke the fundamental RTS rule of defender's advantage, a mechanic that has plagued ALL 3 protoss match ups including PvP. Now we won't see terran lose 15 scvs instantly to a chargelot warpin in their main, we won't see zerg retreating their whole army to deal with warp prism harass, and we might see third bases again in PvP.
I also like that they didn't touch the pick up range. As much as it can seem unfair, it's currently needed in PvZ for harass because of the queen's 9 air attack range, and it's also needed to defend zergs roach and hydra timings.
The other changes seems good on paper. Infested terran nerf was needed, Carrier buff was needed. This will help lategame PvZ a LOT, maybe even too much, we'll see.
Recall has always been a garbage band aid spell that promoted reckless positioning from protoss players and any nerf to it is good.
The only change I really don't like is the stim one. This feels like another band aid buff that won't fix the intended issues and will create more problems than it solves. This does nothing to address the strength of 1/1/1 pushes in TvP. Most of those all-ins don't use stim anyway, as terran spend their gas on tanks and banshees instead. By "Allowing Terran to more seamlessly transition from tech-based openings to a Bio-based mid-game" you actually make those all-ins more desirable to choose. If Blizzard wants the upgrade to be harder to snipe, there's an obvious fix, just buff the HP of the tech lab. Most of the tech buildings allowing upgrades in the game are in the 750-1000 HP range. Then you have the only exception being the tech lab at 400 HP. Double its health and terran will have enough time to send scvs to repair it.
Oh and please keep the protoss tears flowing, especially from BerserkSword, I'm enjoying every second of it. Yeah terran players can whine a lot. But reading protoss players comments on here is like seeing a 5 year old throwing a tantrum because daddy Blizzard has confiscated their shiny new toy, absolutely hilarious.
On July 02 2019 12:35 vhapter wrote: Nice. Now the only standard "harassment" option left for protoss is an oracle that will at most kill 2 drones or hopefully not blow up if you control it like a korean pro and instantly dodge widow mines.
I'm looking forward to doing nothing but turtling into perhaps the oh-so-fast option of doing a 4-base storm drop OR zealot warp-in 10+ minutes into the game against terran. And probably just turtling into dying a brutal death in the late game against zerg. Yeah, right. I guess I'll just keep offracing instead...
Yeah because blink stalker harass disappeared, DT harass disappeared, Phoenix harass disappeared, Archon drop disappeared, adept harass disappeared... Wait, none of it did? Wow I guess it's actually not the end of the world then!
Oh and please keep the protoss tears flowing, especially from BerserkSword, I'm enjoying every second of it. Yeah terran players can whine a lot. But reading protoss players comments on here is like seeing a 5 year old throwing a tantrum because daddy Blizzard has confiscated their shiny new toy, absolutely hilarious.
On July 02 2019 12:41 WenHe wrote: I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
I really hate to do this because I can tell English is not your first language but I truly have no idea what VB, BY, or VC are and thus pretty much have no idea what your post means.
Sorry, that is the custom in China. VB is the hot key of robot bay. VC is Twilight council. BY is Cyber core
Oh that actually makes a lot of sense. However I just don't think it would make sense to put a robo unit's upgrade on the Twilight, and adding research to reduce the warpin time of proxy pylons would realistically change nothing if the warp prism already has this upgrade.
On July 02 2019 13:32 DarkGamer wrote: wow u really can see who is playing protoss in low leagues right now. the comments are showing some protoss-biased in here. or are they really not seeing that the changes are either black nor white?
most people tend to agree with the changes or are farsighted to see that you have to wait how it plays out.
im really happy that the balance team seems to have a clear view about the state of the game. very justifed ideas are pictured. the possible disadvantages are also reasonable and comprehensible painted.
It's pretty normal whenever Blizzard makes balance posts though. You can see it most pronounced on the General Forums of the Starcraft official forums where trolls have hijacked the thread to talk about Cannon Rushing and Void Rays lol (although they do have a point about how useless Void Rays are.)
For a lot of people that don't pay super close attention to the pro scene they see these balance suggestions through the lense of their own play only and can't see the bigger picture in why they are being proposed. A lot of pro players are guilty of this too.
On July 02 2019 13:32 DarkGamer wrote: wow u really can see who is playing protoss in low leagues right now. the comments are showing some protoss-biased in here. or are they really not seeing that the changes are either black nor white?
most people tend to agree with the changes or are farsighted to see that you have to wait how it plays out.
im really happy that the balance team seems to have a clear view about the state of the game. very justifed ideas are pictured. the possible disadvantages are also reasonable and comprehensible painted.
It's pretty normal whenever Blizzard makes balance posts though. You can see it most pronounced on the General Forums of the Starcraft official forums where trolls have hijacked the thread to talk about Cannon Rushing and Void Rays lol (although they do have a point about how useless Void Rays are.)
For a lot of people that don't pay super close attention to the pro scene they see these balance suggestions through the lense of their own play only and can't see the bigger picture in why they are being proposed. A lot of pro players are guilty of this too.
I mean, you're absolutely right that pro players are guilty of this, but to be fair to them, balance favoring their race pretty directly translates into more money for them, so they're definitely gonna be biased.
Last patch -> "hey we lower recal radius and make shorter cooldown, so protoss can use this ability more, because protoss army slow and can easyly be caught offguard" New patch -> "AHAHA Jokeeeeee" (and radius still small)
It's not like i'm too concerned with these changes, but, seriously, blizzard. It's like i'm reading through another balance whine thread. For real? Stim pack research decrease? Is that the only thing you could think of? I mean, it's just another pointless change that will have zero impact on tvp in general aside from few other imbecil 1.5 base terran timings. About the wp change... Well, you are just removing the entire playstyle from the game (again it's not like a big fan of 2 base allins, but still). And that's without any signes of it being op or something. Zerg will just blindly spam drones 24/7. It will even affect archon (and other sort of) harass. Why, ffs? PvZ is already zerg favoured, what the f is this? Move it to cybernetics core at least. With an increased research time. Because a robo bay requirement is clearly an overcommitment. You won't be able to drop terran until 10 minute. What the f?
On July 02 2019 12:41 WenHe wrote: I don't think this is good, why the research of warp is in VB(this structure is too expensive)? maybe add an additional structure(need BY or VC?), which can reduce warp-in time. besides, I really hope to add research in VC to reduce the warp-in time of pylon, which not near to Gateway or Nexus.
I really hate to do this because I can tell English is not your first language but I truly have no idea what VB, BY, or VC are and thus pretty much have no idea what your post means.
Sorry, that is the custom in China. VB is the hot key of robot bay. VC is Twilight council. BY is Cyber core
And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
All changes is reasonable. Especially Toss powerful early game must be nuff. I thnk that Warf-Prism's boarding arrange need to narrow, but Increasing summon time is a good selection.
On July 02 2019 07:53 Charoisaur wrote: Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay. They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players
I'm not sure that calling Zerg players whiners is a constructive way to contribute to the discussion.
On point I think these changes are all pretty good and should give a bit of vitality to a somewhat stagnating meta.
It's close to the best they can do for now, only a blizzcon patch could redesign protoss to make it a fair race, also crazy that they introduced acropolis in a "rough" time for terran as i don't think i've ever seen a macro map that imbalanced for zerg and protoss against terran
On July 02 2019 14:56 insitelol wrote: And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
How about producing the units in your base and walking them across the map, you know, like what the other 2 races had to do for the last 9 years? Jesus Christ the entitlement. It's not enough that most protoss units can be instantly produced, they should also appears wherever I need!
These changes are extreme. As a Zerg player I can't speak to PvT, but I expect PvZ to swing heavily in favour of Zerg with these changes. The changes to carriers and infested Terran seem nowhere near significant enough to make late-game balanced, and I feel like the warp-prism nerfs will result in easy early games leading to overwhelming mid-game Zerg timings. I'd prefer a modest reduction to warp prism HP so that Protoss can't juggle/warp in with so much impunity, and maybe something like a max energy nerf for infestors to weaken Zerg late-game turtling.
On the bright side, I always enjoyed watching phoenix vs phoenix PvP, and there'll surely be more of that!
On July 02 2019 14:56 insitelol wrote: And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
How about producing the units in your base and walking them across the map, you know, like what the other 2 races had to do for the last 9 years? Jesus Christ the entitlement. It's not enough that most protoss units can be instantly produced, they should also appears wherever I need!
The problem is the game hasn't really been balanced around that. That's not how Protoss harassment works, that's why gateway units were pitiful, and still aren't that strong compared to the other races.
On July 02 2019 14:56 insitelol wrote: And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
How about producing the units in your base and walking them across the map, you know, like what the other 2 races had to do for the last 9 years? Jesus Christ the entitlement. It's not enough that most protoss units can be instantly produced, they should also appears wherever I need!
The problem is the game hasn't really been balanced around that. That's not how Protoss harassment works, that's why gateway units were pitiful, and still aren't that strong compared to the other races.
I disagree. taking together LOTV buffs, zealots are really really strong, tanky AND powerful damage dealers if they reach melee, stalkers are a tactical op unit that shines in low numbers battles and adepts are really powerful exploiting opponents multitasking.
On July 02 2019 16:29 Mlord wrote: It's close to the best they can do for now, only a blizzcon patch could redesign protoss to make it a fair race, also crazy that they introduced acropolis in a "rough" time for terran as i don't think i've ever seen a macro map that imbalanced for zerg and protoss against terran
Well, in the last map pool there were 2 imbalanced maps, one of which stayed(Cyber Forest), so, uh, it's probably their choice to have such 2 maps in the game(which is stupid, but what can we do)
On July 02 2019 14:56 insitelol wrote: And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
How about producing the units in your base and walking them across the map, you know, like what the other 2 races had to do for the last 9 years? Jesus Christ the entitlement. It's not enough that most protoss units can be instantly produced, they should also appears wherever I need!
The problem is the game hasn't really been balanced around that. That's not how Protoss harassment works, that's why gateway units were pitiful, and still aren't that strong compared to the other races.
Adept especially was added as a powerful tanky unit which can survive long enough and do some damage. Longer warp in in earlier stages where you need the defender advantage the most is a good choice. More all ins will move to proxy pylon&gateway combo which is easier to defend.
"Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun"
On July 02 2019 14:56 insitelol wrote: And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
How about producing the units in your base and walking them across the map, you know, like what the other 2 races had to do for the last 9 years? Jesus Christ the entitlement. It's not enough that most protoss units can be instantly produced, they should also appears wherever I need!
By the other 2 races you mean the one who can lift and boost their whole army into opponent's base and the one who can literally teleport infinite supply of forces anywhere on the visible map?
I mean i also am worried about some of these changes (or how they could impact the game), but this is for goddamn TESTING purposes. Everybody acts like this is the final patch and protoss is gonna get removed by this. I am all for more experimental and maybe bigger changes for a testing that can be dialed back to reasonable numbers, so i'd advocate to take a chill pill.
On July 02 2019 17:06 Nars_ wrote: "Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun"
My thoughts exactly. "Some whiners say protoss is OP, but there is no evidence to that - winratios are negative for toss, they haven't won a single tournament in 2 years, hm... it's a controvercy! We have no clue what's going on, but if we remain silent, everyone will think we are not doing our job, we will get fired, sooo.... lets nerf the fuck out of protoss". "L" stands for logics.
On July 02 2019 14:56 insitelol wrote: And how am I supposed to reinforce the poke pushes btw? In early-mid game? in PvP and PvT? PvP will become a SG fest again. I'm just pinned to the base until 10 minute now. Well thought, blizzard.
How about producing the units in your base and walking them across the map, you know, like what the other 2 races had to do for the last 9 years? Jesus Christ the entitlement. It's not enough that most protoss units can be instantly produced, they should also appears wherever I need!
By the other 2 races you mean the one who can lift and boost their whole army into opponent's base and the one who can literally teleport infinite supply of forces anywhere on the visible map?
Ye, i like how they justify recall nerf by "punishing" protoss players who are "constatly out of position" and completely ignore free nydus spamming for zergs. Those positioning issues, you know.
On July 02 2019 17:06 Nars_ wrote: "Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun"
My thoughts exactly. "Some whiners say protoss is OP, but there is no evidence to that - winratios are negative for toss, they haven't won a single tournament in 2 years, hm... it's a controvercy! We have no clue what's going on, but if we remain silent, everyone will think we are not doing our job, we will get fired, sooo.... lets nerf the fuck out of protoss". "L" stands for logics.
8 Protoss players in RO16 (Code S S2) 7 Protoss players in RO8 (GSL ST1) Several 2nd places of Protosses(Code S: 2018 S1, 2018 S2, 2019 S1, 2019 S2; 2018 GSL ST2; IEM: Katowice 2019, PyeongChang 2018, Katowice 2018; Blizzcon 2018) NO PROTOSS CHAMPION IN 2 YEARS!$!$!$ Classic just won GSL ST1? Stats won the 2018 GSL ST1? Classic won the 2018 GSL ST2?
How about WCS? Showtime, MaNa, Has, Neeb? (Neeb won WCS America IIRC)
On July 02 2019 17:06 Nars_ wrote: "Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun"
My thoughts exactly. "Some whiners say protoss is OP, but there is no evidence to that - winratios are negative for toss, they haven't won a single tournament in 2 years, hm... it's a controvercy! We have no clue what's going on, but if we remain silent, everyone will think we are not doing our job, we will get fired, sooo.... lets nerf the fuck out of protoss". "L" stands for logics.
8 Protoss players in RO16 (Code S S2) 7 Protoss players in RO8 (GSL ST1) Several 2nd places of Protosses(Code S: 2018 S1, 2018 S2, 2019 S1, 2019 S2; 2018 GSL ST2; IEM: Katowice 2019, PyeongChang 2018, Katowice 2018; Blizzcon 2018) NO PROTOSS CHAMPION IN 2 YEARS!$!$!$ Classic just won GSL ST1? Stats won the 2018 GSL ST1? Classic won the 2018 GSL ST2?
How about WCS? Showtime, MaNa, Has, Neeb? (Neeb won WCS America IIRC)
Do you watch SC2 or just complain?
Hey, chill. 2 years was a clear over exaggeration. The point is: you need undeniable evidence to justify the nerfs. Last 5 GSLs: 4 terran/1 zerg. Last 4 WCS: 4 zergs. Blizzcon: zerg. Who in the sane state of his mind would call protoss OP in that scenario? Only retards.
Numbers, wins, championships means nothing in this sence who is op or not... like protoss might not be strong (it is bug okay...) it's about how flustrating it is to play against...
Terran's flat out hates it to guts Zergs dont mind if they survive into late game
its not fun to watch 10 units being warped in your base in 4 seconds killing ur entire base and half of your army while even stronger army pushes towards the other base
On July 02 2019 17:06 Nars_ wrote: "Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun"
My thoughts exactly. "Some whiners say protoss is OP, but there is no evidence to that - winratios are negative for toss, they haven't won a single tournament in 2 years, hm... it's a controvercy! We have no clue what's going on, but if we remain silent, everyone will think we are not doing our job, we will get fired, sooo.... lets nerf the fuck out of protoss". "L" stands for logics.
8 Protoss players in RO16 (Code S S2) 7 Protoss players in RO8 (GSL ST1) Several 2nd places of Protosses(Code S: 2018 S1, 2018 S2, 2019 S1, 2019 S2; 2018 GSL ST2; IEM: Katowice 2019, PyeongChang 2018, Katowice 2018; Blizzcon 2018) NO PROTOSS CHAMPION IN 2 YEARS!$!$!$ Classic just won GSL ST1? Stats won the 2018 GSL ST1? Classic won the 2018 GSL ST2?
How about WCS? Showtime, MaNa, Has, Neeb? (Neeb won WCS America IIRC)
Do you watch SC2 or just complain?
Hey, chill. 2 years was a clear over exaggeration. The point is: you need undeniable evidence to justify the nerfs. Last 5 GSLs: 4 terran/1 zerg. Last 4 WCS: 4 zergs. Blizzcon: zerg. Who in the sane state of his mind would call protoss OP in that scenario? Only retards.
Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss".
And again, 8 P in RO16, 7 P in RO8 in 2 different tournaments... No problems at all, Protoss players are just better
Edit> yes, by your definition I am a retard. It's nice to be appreciated (BTW I am a Protoss player)
On July 02 2019 17:36 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Numbers, wins, championships means nothing in this sence who is op or not... like protoss might not be strong (it is bug okay...) it's about how flustrating it is to play against...
Terran's flat out hates it to guts Zergs dont mind if they survive into late game
its not fun to watch 10 units being warped in your base in 4 seconds killing ur entire base and half of your army while even stronger army pushes towards the other base
"Numbers mean shit, i don't care, it's just not fun to watch and frustrating to play". Reasonable argumentation strikes again.
On July 02 2019 17:36 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Numbers, wins, championships means nothing in this sence who is op or not... like protoss might not be strong (it is bug okay...) it's about how flustrating it is to play against...
Terran's flat out hates it to guts Zergs dont mind if they survive into late game
its not fun to watch 10 units being warped in your base in 4 seconds killing ur entire base and half of your army while even stronger army pushes towards the other base
"Numbers mean shit, i don't care, it's just not fun to watch and frustrating to play". Reasonable argumentation strikes again.
Many people play the game for fun, not for numbers. So balancing the game around fun first and numbers later may actually keep playesr playing the game longer.
But some play this game to get numbers. And ignore some numbers they don't like. Example - you.
On July 02 2019 17:38 deacon.frost wrote: Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss".
No, it does not. You clearly missed the point. I'll repeat. Undeniable proof. Give it to me. Protoss missed all meaningful titles last year. Took some irrelevant weekend tournaments, some 2nd places. How on earth do you interpret that as Protoss OP? It looks like you are just obsessed with buffing and nerfing something, chill. This whole situation you described clearly illustrates that nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed (exept for nydus ofc :3).
On July 02 2019 17:38 deacon.frost wrote: Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss".
No, it does not. You clearly missed the point. I'll repeat. Undeniable proof. Give it to me. Protoss missed all meaningful titles last year. Took some irrelevant weekend tournaments, some 2nd places. How on earth do you interpret that as Protoss OP? It looks like you are just obsessed with buffing and nerfing something, chill. This whole situation you described clearly illustrates that nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed (exept for nydus ofc :3).
Are you just trolling or not reading at all?
What's with the obsession of tournament victories.
You wrote there were no champions - there were, you lied. You write undeniable proof - protoss managed to completely take over 2 different competitions, they are taking 2nd places everywhere, yet this is not enough because "they didn't win the tournaments I selected as important". Doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Zerg were not(Code S), doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Terrans were not(WCS, Blizzcon, IEM).
And on the top of that you claim that everybody who supports the change is a retard and then you try to "chill" me?
Go troll somewhere else, please.
Edit> Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
Robo bay and the upgrade will be mandatory now for any attack.
I agree with the terran changes, terran will be stronger early and late game vs p and z. The slight buffs to carriers and also terran late aie by nerfing infested terrans is great too.
But from my recent games to me it seems that zerg actually has way more aggressive options early game, the protoss options being only variations of an immo push or adepts, which are both mostly all-ins. The zerg however can punish and insta kill a protoss early game if he doesn't wall perfectly at all times and doesn't scout perfectly to identify ling floods, ling+bane, roach ravager, roach ling or nydus variations. Early game protoss units just lose vs zerg and mid game only works with force fields and immo. Late game you are dead if you don't have enough AoE.
With this protoss will be fucked in zvp. Protoss needs some early game buff then. Gateway units are just too shitty if you don't even have the offensive warp in advantage.
The Balance team is getting better and better overall though.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Many people play the game for fun, not for numbers. So balancing the game around fun first and numbers later may actually keep playesr playing the game longer.
No, people play to win. And when they lose they try to justify their lack of skill (intead of getting better). If there is no statistics to back this up, they appeal to "not having fun". Because there HAS to be a reason for them to lose (besides not being good enough). Ofc, loosing is not fun, i can agree with that.
On July 02 2019 17:38 deacon.frost wrote: Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss".
No, it does not. You clearly missed the point. I'll repeat. Undeniable proof. Give it to me. Protoss missed all meaningful titles last year. Took some irrelevant weekend tournaments, some 2nd places. How on earth do you interpret that as Protoss OP? It looks like you are just obsessed with buffing and nerfing something, chill. This whole situation you described clearly illustrates that nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed (exept for nydus ofc :3).
Are you just trolling or not reading at all?
What's with the obsession of tournament victories.
You wrote there were no champions - there were, you lied. You write undeniable proof - protoss managed to completely take over 2 different competitions, they are taking 2nd places everywhere, yet this is not enough because "they didn't win the tournaments I selected as important". Doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Zerg were not(Code S), doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Terrans were not(WCS, Blizzcon, IEM).
And on the top of that you claim that everybody who supports the change is a retard and then you try to "chill" me?
Go troll somewhere else, please.
What can i reply to calling 5 consecutive GSL/WCS and Blizzcon titles unimportant? Yes, i selected them, because there is nothing else to select from.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
Well, if you put it that way. That's just another level of argumentation. Now it's "balance patch, but not really about balance". I guess i need some time to think of a decent argument to counter.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
Well, if you put it that way. That's just another level of argumentation. Now it's "balance patch, but not really about balance". I guess i need some time to think of a decent argument to counter.
I'd say this patch is less balance and more design from the way they are saying. They want more macro late games and are taking the steps to implement that.
So they didnt address terran late game problems at all, except "use ghost to counter there op late game casters", Basically terran is still stuck on using inferior T2 army + ghost versus T3...
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
What is true is that PvZ especially has been a challenge for Zerg to survive long enough to a strong midgame aggression resulting to a very likely autowin later in the game, that's not good and Blizzard correctly attempted to fix that(while I'm not sure the numbers they modified will be enough to do that).
The claims that Protoss was broken in 2018 were just laughable, reaching many finals and losing almost every one of them shows that the race is competitive, no more; it's just crybabies(and some progamer, as well) who think the fundamental mechanics of Protoss are unfair and hate accordingly.
Terran buffs kind of surprise me, last year they underperformed(except for Maru) but this year they performed decently if we take out Katowice; Terran tears are indeed overflowing and the perceived win ratio in TvP appears to be close to 20%, so that may have forced Blizzard's hand. Even so, stim seems too generic of a buff to affect midgame TvP only and Terran lategame didn't really need help considering they are even or slightly favored against the "super broken" Zerg late with Infestor being already nerfed. Maybe Blizzard has to see Terran realiably win Code S to keep the tournament founded, I hope that's why.
Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
Is it just me or does anyone else get all hot and bothered by people typing "patch".. "great patch" "awful patch" .. this is the game developers getting YOU exited about the test "tab"..
.. this is in no way shape or form what they will do in their next patching..
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical.
soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018)
Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time.
Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019.
Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell.
Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history.
The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM
Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves
The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament.
but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
Blizzard can do that but I as a platin Protoss won't play that nonsense. Warp prism with this change will be a t3-unit and Protoss has the slowest army. These announcements are a joke.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical.
soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018)
Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time.
Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019.
Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell.
Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history.
The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM
Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves
The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament.
but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta(edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be.
Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously?
Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad?
On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
I dont know who that person is that posted those statistics, but the very first PvT winrate I looked at proved to be false. That person lists GSL Season 2 PvT at 60.78% when in reality it is 53.3% (Source: Liquipedia) For some reason WCS Spring is not included as well... probably because the PvT winrate there is sitting at 43.5% and that doesn't fit the narrative. Here is a quick list of what the PvT winrates actually are for those tournaments: GSL Season 1: 43.3% IEM Katowice: 63% WESG: 63.2% Super Tournament 1: 47.1% GSL Season 2: 53.3% HSC: 58.2% and if we include the WCS events of the year: WCS Europe: 46.9% WCS America: 50.8% WCS Spring: 43.5%
I find it absolutely telling that whoever made that post, deliberately posted false information for the tournaments in which PvT was Terran favored, while leaving the other ones unchanged. Using the correct win rates does paint a different picture, doesn't it?
I am getting seriously tired of having to double check almost every statistic posted here, because almost all of them are false - and intentionally so, in many cases -, or carefully selected to fit a certain narrative.
7/8 Protoss in a Super Tournament quarterfinals is certainly an unusual incident... but not completely unthinkable. We have had GSL tournaments with 6/8 Terrans in the quarterfinals and 4/4 Terrans in the semifinals.
I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical.
soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018)
Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time.
Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019.
Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell.
Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history.
The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM
Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves
The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament.
but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta(edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be.
Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously?
Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad?
Ah, yeah... the infamous "all Protoss players aren't good and the only reason why they make it far in tournaments is because of their race" rhetoric. Seriously, this is one of the most toxic narratives that shitposters like you have tried to build for years and it's honestly exhausting to be bombarded with this nonsense.
On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
The problem is that non-korean Protoss players that are not Neeb don't have the mechanics nor play the right style to abuse Protoss. If you don't take that in consideration, you will be left with noisy data that doesn't make sense, and the problem will manifest in international tournaments and KR only.
On July 02 2019 07:22 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: In early Wings of Liberty, we increased the research duration of the Stimpack upgrade in order to temper the strength of 3-rax openers in TvP, which at the time was difficult for Protoss players to defend against, especially at lower levels. Fast forward to today,....
its really cool that Blizzard continues to pay attention to all levels of play.
On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
I dont know who that person is that posted those statistics, but the very first PvT winrate I looked at proved to be false. That person lists GSL Season 2 PvT at 60.78% when in reality it is 53.3% (Source: Liquipedia) For some reason WCS Spring is not included as well... probably because the PvT winrate there is sitting at 43.5% and that doesn't fit the narrative. Here is a quick list of what the PvT winrates actually are for those tournaments: GSL Season 1: 43.3% IEM Katowice: 63% WESG: 63.2% Super Tournament 1: 47.1% GSL Season 2: 53.3% HSC: 58.2% and if we include the WCS events of the year: WCS Europe: 46.9% WCS America: 50.8% WCS Spring: 43.5%
I find it absolutely telling that whoever made that post, deliberately posted false information for the tournaments in which PvT was Terran favored, while leaving the other ones unchanged. Using the correct win rates does paint a different picture, doesn't it?
I am getting seriously tired of having to double check almost every statistic posted here, because almost all of them are false - and intentionally so, in many cases -, or carefully selected to fit a certain narrative.
7/8 Protoss in a Super Tournament quarterfinals is certainly an unusual incident... but not completely unthinkable. We have had GSL tournaments with 6/8 Terrans in the quarterfinals and 4/4 Terrans in the semifinals.
I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical.
soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018)
Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time.
Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019.
Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell.
Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history.
The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM
Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves
The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament.
but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta(edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be.
Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously?
Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad?
Ah, yeah... the infamous "all Protoss players aren't good and the only reason why they make it far in tournaments is because of their race" rhetoric. Seriously, this is one of the most toxic narratives that shitposters like you have tried to build for years and it's honestly exhausting to be bombarded with this nonsense.
Don't twist my words into something I haven't written. You're the shitposter here doing this shenanigans, not me, you're the toxic one here - I'm just using your own words, so don't feel offended for not understanding my post while trying to offend me.
What I said is that herO, sOs, Zest are no longer the giants of SC2 and are worse players now(doesn't apply to sOs per se as he always was random). We're talking about time when we just had 2 tournaments heavily dominated by Protoss players and these didn't deliver any reasonable success(except the RO4 of sOs at ST). Which would suggest they're bad ATM and other Protoss are better(e.g. Trap in Code S). That's not a bad thing to say. People change, players have their bad times. Zest may rise again, maybe even herO. But using these players NOW of all times, is not exactly right choice of players.
... (edit> and again, I am comparing them to their old selfs which sets the bar way too high, but RO16 COde S, RO16 ST, RO8 Code S isn't exactly where the old herO would have ended, and while RO4 IEM is nice, let's face it, he would have been in the finals, it's not fair to herO but he used to be a monster)
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
GSL Code S 2019 Season 2 race ratio - (P/T/Z) 12/9/11 shifter into 8/4/4. Again I have to ask if you're trolling or just don't watch the SC2 because RO32 looked very fine until it was played.
So if you say that now it's fine - well we can't say, can we? Based on the last season we should end with 8 P 5 T 3 Z ratio (75 % success rate for Protoss, roughly 50 % for T/Z). But since I cannot predict the future and when(if) the patch hits the game I cannot tell how this will end up. Obviously you're the one here operating with this ratio so tell me how fine it is and how fine it was during the Season 2 where we had almost perfect race ratio which ended in something not very pleasant.
There's a reason why many people say the true Code S starts with RO16. Maybe T will rise again, maybe not, this change isn't in and there are still some trong Protoss players and strong anti-terran maps...
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
I think I will give him the Xainon treatment and start to ignore him.
Hm, couldn’t the prism upgrade also upgrade pylon warp ins too? May as well
I guess it’s just at the testing stage, I like the prism changes in theory, I think Protoss has too much flexibility in transitioning from a poke to an all-in that’s very difficult to read and respond to sometimes.
It’s quite a big change by itself though, never mind throwing in other changes at the same time.
Maybe the community wouldn’t respond well I don’t know, I’d rather they test and tweak things in isolation, or a few at a time and see how that shakes up
It’s a huge change given how Protoss is currently played, every single timing will be less sharp, seems too much to figure out other things if you’re throwing up in other Terran buffs at the same time.
My instinct right now is that TvP is in pretty decent shape at the highest level, and ZvP it seems players are getting to grips with all those Robo-centric builds, and Protoss will end up over-nerfed by balance patches after players have already found good solutions.
I do have my issues with the prism and do want to see some tweaks with it, but it’s almost as integral to harass and reinforcement to Protoss as Queens are to Zergs, so a delicate touch is required IMO
On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
The problem is that non-korean Protoss players that are not Neeb don't have the mechanics nor play the right style to abuse Protoss. If you don't take that in consideration, you will be left with noisy data that doesn't make sense, and the problem will manifest in international tournaments and KR only.
That is an interesting way to spin it. When Byun and then later Gumiho, Maru and other Terrans founds success while a lot of foreign Terrans struggled, a common notion in this forum was that looking at the best Terrans in the world is not an indicator of the race being too strong and that those players are only winning because they are literal gods and that Terrans need a buff. Now you tell me that because only the best koreans Protosses and Neeb know how to properly play Protoss, we should ignore the other data?
I guess we need a "just play like Classic" meme...
On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
I dont know who that person is that posted those statistics, but the very first PvT winrate I looked at proved to be false. That person lists GSL Season 2 PvT at 60.78% when in reality it is 53.3% (Source: Liquipedia) For some reason WCS Spring is not included as well... probably because the PvT winrate there is sitting at 43.5% and that doesn't fit the narrative. Here is a quick list of what the PvT winrates actually are for those tournaments: GSL Season 1: 43.3% IEM Katowice: 63% WESG: 63.2% Super Tournament 1: 47.1% GSL Season 2: 53.3% HSC: 58.2% and if we include the WCS events of the year: WCS Europe: 46.9% WCS America: 50.8% WCS Spring: 43.5%
I find it absolutely telling that whoever made that post, deliberately posted false information for the tournaments in which PvT was Terran favored, while leaving the other ones unchanged. Using the correct win rates does paint a different picture, doesn't it?
I am getting seriously tired of having to double check almost every statistic posted here, because almost all of them are false - and intentionally so, in many cases -, or carefully selected to fit a certain narrative.
7/8 Protoss in a Super Tournament quarterfinals is certainly an unusual incident... but not completely unthinkable. We have had GSL tournaments with 6/8 Terrans in the quarterfinals and 4/4 Terrans in the semifinals.
I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
On July 02 2019 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:
On July 02 2019 20:18 BerserkSword wrote:
On July 02 2019 19:05 Xain0n wrote:
On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical.
soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018)
Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time.
Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019.
Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell.
Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history.
The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM
Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves
The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament.
but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta(edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be.
Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously?
Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad?
Ah, yeah... the infamous "all Protoss players aren't good and the only reason why they make it far in tournaments is because of their race" rhetoric. Seriously, this is one of the most toxic narratives that shitposters like you have tried to build for years and it's honestly exhausting to be bombarded with this nonsense.
Don't twist my words into something I haven't written. You're the shitposter here doing this shenanigans, not me, you're the toxic one here - I'm just using your own words, so don't feel offended for not understanding my post while trying to offend me.
What I said is that herO, sOs, Zest are no longer the giants of SC2 and are worse players now(doesn't apply to sOs per se as he always was random). We're talking about time when we just had 2 tournaments heavily dominated by Protoss players and these didn't deliver any reasonable success(except the RO4 of sOs at ST). Which would suggest they're bad ATM and other Protoss are better(e.g. Trap in Code S). That's not a bad thing to say. People change, players have their bad times. Zest may rise again, maybe even herO. But using these players NOW of all times, is not exactly right choice of players.
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
GSL Code S 2019 Season 2 race ratio - (P/T/Z) 12/9/11 shifter into 8/4/4. Again I have to ask if you're trolling or just don't watch the SC2 because RO32 looked very fine until it was played.
So if you say that now it's fine - well we can't say, can we? Based on the last season we should end with 8 P 5 T 3 Z ratio (75 % success rate for Protoss, roughly 50 % for T/Z). But since I cannot predict the future and when(if) the patch hits the game I cannot tell how this will end up. Obviously you're the one here operating with this ratio so tell me how fine it is and how fine it was during the Season 2 where we had almost perfect race ratio which ended in something not very pleasant.
There's a reason why many people say the true Code S starts with RO16. Maybe T will rise again, maybe not, this change isn't in and there are still some trong Protoss players and strong anti-terran maps...
On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote: Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
I think I will give him the Xainon treatment and start to ignore him.
It's a pity you don't ignore yourself instead, your senselessness wouldn't constantly haunt us.
If you want to see Protoss being overpowered look at the first half of 2014, in 2019 korean Protoss were ahead of the meta for a couple of months; while it was happening, it could have been that they were effectively op, but looking back it just took a while for Zerg to figure them out(Blizzard itself doesn't say they were clearly too strong of a race).
On July 02 2019 07:53 Charoisaur wrote: Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay. They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players
There's nothing fun or active about fast prism warp-ins and that's what they're nerfing. Prism juggling stays exactly the same.
Yes there is. A warpprism warping in 10 Zealots in the opponents main promotes active action-packed play and now this is nerfed.
On July 02 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote: Hm, couldn’t the prism upgrade also upgrade pylon warp ins too? May as well
I guess it’s just at the testing stage, I like the prism changes in theory, I think Protoss has too much flexibility in transitioning from a poke to an all-in that’s very difficult to read and respond to sometimes.
It’s quite a big change by itself though, never mind throwing in other changes at the same time.
Maybe the community wouldn’t respond well I don’t know, I’d rather they test and tweak things in isolation, or a few at a time and see how that shakes up
It’s a huge change given how Protoss is currently played, every single timing will be less sharp, seems too much to figure out other things if you’re throwing up in other Terran buffs at the same time.
My instinct right now is that TvP is in pretty decent shape at the highest level, and ZvP it seems players are getting to grips with all those Robo-centric builds, and Protoss will end up over-nerfed by balance patches after players have already found good solutions.
I do have my issues with the prism and do want to see some tweaks with it, but it’s almost as integral to harass and reinforcement to Protoss as Queens are to Zergs, so a delicate touch is required IMO
And Queens were nerfed in last patch as I recall, weren't they?
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
Love the changes, WP nerf was needed and the choosen way is great. Sure wp harass was active part of the game but it was and still is too risk free, fly in a wp, start a huge warpin and see what happens, if it looks bad you can even just cancel the warpin. Thats not how it works for terran that risks a big part of their army to harass with that many units.
If you are thinking right now :"what about zerg, they have nydus and thats low risk harass", well the nydus you are whining about takes 14 seconds to pop. You are complaining about your warpins taking 11 seconds instead of 4, well guess what that is reasonable. Imagine if we tried to make the nydus have 4 second build time, that doesn't sound very reasonable does it.
I'm worried about the overall balance especially maybe protoss and zerg needs buffs in different areas to balance up the terran changes.
BUT shortening stim is a really great change, stim is one of the big limiters of terran play right now. Terran is helpless before stim and when they have stim they still mostly rely on factory units in the current meta. This is a way to open up different paths for terran play which would be fun and interesting for all races (if its balanced of course). If its OP I would prefer to buff either P/Z or both and keep the stim buff because I really think it will help to vary the game up.
The ghost buff sounds great too, personally as a diamond player ghosts were just impossible to use against P. Maybe I was just bad but either carrier/tempest/colossus/disruptor would always zone my ghosts. Sure ghost always had a slight increased range compared to HTs feedback but you shouldn't look at the units in a vacum. When you take into consideration the usual compositions I at least felt the protoss mostly had the advantages late game.
I also think its pretty telling protoss always(pretty much) go HT late game but terran don't get ghosts, why would all protoss players go HT if they were countered by ghosts? Why would terran pros not build ghosts vs HTs if they have the edge in the micro battle, the answer is that they don't. HTs decide too much in lategame PvT. Terran bio dies to storm, terran vikings (vs skytoss) dies to storm, ghosts gets zoned by the forementioned protoss units. What should terran do? Go mech, BCs or simply try to basetrade or go all in nukes and hope for a lucky strike?
Edit: if some of these changes go live this might actually entice me to play sc2 again!
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment.
Good changes. The stim research upgrade buff is very needed to give Terrans more options vs. protoss and may make stim timings viable again like they were back in WOL (though I doubt it cause of adepts/battery). The warp prism warp in nerf is very good for terrans, while not completely neutering it, especially in PvZ with the Immortal play.
This may end up hurting protoss too much, but time will tell. Terran definitely needed some help vs. P
On July 03 2019 01:05 samchan1331 wrote: Put all the PvT talks aside, the warp prism change will affect PvP and PvZ heavily.
I hope the balance team is not doing the prism change solely looking in PvT.
it creates a huge defenders advantage in pvp..
4 sec warp ins vs 11 sec
That's not a bad thing to be honest, I think MSC pvp was the best time for the matchup, mid-late game pvp can be pretty interesting, the problem has always been passing the 10 minute mark.
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
Are you joking bro?
To drop an entire army for Terrans they have to commit them by transporting them.
For Protoss to Warp In with a Warp Prism they just risk the prism which is 200 minerals, any units killed as they warp in are cancelled not killed so money is returned.
If Protoss overcommits they can recall.
But the biggest part about the difference is that the Warp Prism can warp in reinforcements to an already existing army, nearly instantly whereas Terran Medivacs need to be made, transported and unloaded requiring travel time.
The Warp Prism is a MUCH smaller commitment that a Protoss can cancel anytime they feel like. Doom Drops with medivacs are extremely high risk high reward moves that leaves a Terran completely vulnerable on the rest of the map.
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
The noobs stim push will now be 21 seconds faster, even if their timing is later, it will still now be faster.
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment.
If the timings are delayed, they don't benefit from reduced upgrade time
20 seconds is seriously so much time in Starcraft. Count it out loud. Protoss won't be able to get colossi in time with the old builds because of the early game pushes. No third base either.
On July 03 2019 01:34 youngjiddle wrote: 20 seconds is seriously so much time in Starcraft. Count it out loud. Protoss won't be able to get colossi in time with the old builds because of the early game pushes. No third base either.
I mean, the medivac timing stays the same and stimmed bio without medivacs is quite lackluster so I don't think stim pushes will be much scarier now. This is more a defense buff imo
On July 03 2019 01:34 youngjiddle wrote: 20 seconds is seriously so much time in Starcraft. Count it out loud. Protoss won't be able to get colossi in time with the old builds because of the early game pushes. No third base either.
Well while you are right I'm not sure which situation you are talking about here but usually terran gets stim when they are pretty low on units. If they speed stim up 20 seconds that also means the terran will have less units when it finishes. Take terran 2-1-1 timing against against zerg, sure they stim 20 seconds earlier but their medivacs still come out the same time. If terran pushes out before the medivacs are done you would need to walk 5 marines to the enemy base to time the attack with stim. Is really 5 marines with stim at zergs third a big problem?
Its the same with early marine attacks, sure stim hits earlier but it would also hit with at least 4 less marines (if 3 rax+1 reactor). I'm sure there are ways to make good aggresive builds if this patch goes through but its not like the same allin would just hit 20 seconds earlier, it would still be a smaller army.
On July 03 2019 01:34 youngjiddle wrote: 20 seconds is seriously so much time in Starcraft. Count it out loud. Protoss won't be able to get colossi in time with the old builds because of the early game pushes. No third base either.
Well while you are right I'm not sure which situation you are talking about here but usually terran gets stim when they are pretty low on units. If they speed stim up 20 seconds that also means the terran will have less units when it finishes. Take terran 2-1-1 timing against against zerg, sure they stim 20 seconds earlier but their medivacs still come out the same time. If terran pushes out before the medivacs are done you would need to walk 5 marines to the enemy base to time the attack with stim. Is really 5 marines with stim at zergs third a big problem?
Its the same with early marine attacks, sure stim hits earlier but it would also hit with at least 4 less marines (if 3 rax+1 reactor). I'm sure there are ways to make good aggresive builds if this patch goes through but its not like the same allin would just hit 20 seconds earlier, it would still be a smaller army.
so the attack hits when terran has 4 less marines and the protoss has one less warp in round and no colossi?
On July 02 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote: Hm, couldn’t the prism upgrade also upgrade pylon warp ins too? May as well
I guess it’s just at the testing stage, I like the prism changes in theory, I think Protoss has too much flexibility in transitioning from a poke to an all-in that’s very difficult to read and respond to sometimes.
It’s quite a big change by itself though, never mind throwing in other changes at the same time.
Maybe the community wouldn’t respond well I don’t know, I’d rather they test and tweak things in isolation, or a few at a time and see how that shakes up
It’s a huge change given how Protoss is currently played, every single timing will be less sharp, seems too much to figure out other things if you’re throwing up in other Terran buffs at the same time.
My instinct right now is that TvP is in pretty decent shape at the highest level, and ZvP it seems players are getting to grips with all those Robo-centric builds, and Protoss will end up over-nerfed by balance patches after players have already found good solutions.
I do have my issues with the prism and do want to see some tweaks with it, but it’s almost as integral to harass and reinforcement to Protoss as Queens are to Zergs, so a delicate touch is required IMO
And Queens were nerfed in last patch as I recall, weren't they?
Indeed, but nerfing such integral units, or buffing them is something that has to be done carefully because there are so many knock on effects. Some of the worst eras in SC2 have been on the back of Queens being too strong
I’m actually in favour of nerfing the prism in some shape or form, but it’s so important to so many things Protoss do, harassment, reinforcement of pushes
It needs tested in isolation IMO. I think the way they’ve done it they’re throwing in too many other buffs/nerfs so figuring out what is affecting what will be a nightmare.
On July 03 2019 01:34 youngjiddle wrote: 20 seconds is seriously so much time in Starcraft. Count it out loud. Protoss won't be able to get colossi in time with the old builds because of the early game pushes. No third base either.
Well while you are right I'm not sure which situation you are talking about here but usually terran gets stim when they are pretty low on units. If they speed stim up 20 seconds that also means the terran will have less units when it finishes. Take terran 2-1-1 timing against against zerg, sure they stim 20 seconds earlier but their medivacs still come out the same time. If terran pushes out before the medivacs are done you would need to walk 5 marines to the enemy base to time the attack with stim. Is really 5 marines with stim at zergs third a big problem?
Its the same with early marine attacks, sure stim hits earlier but it would also hit with at least 4 less marines (if 3 rax+1 reactor). I'm sure there are ways to make good aggresive builds if this patch goes through but its not like the same allin would just hit 20 seconds earlier, it would still be a smaller army.
so the attack hits when terran has 4 less marines and the protoss has one less warp in round and no colossi?
we'll see lol
no, the attack hits when terran has 4 less marines and no medivacs and the protoss has one less warp in round and no colossi. stimmed bio without medivacs is pretty much garbage.
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment.
If the timings are delayed, they don't benefit from reduced upgrade time
How do they not benefit from it? Maybe their build starts stim 20 seconds later, in which case they will still benefit from it being done 21 seconds FASTER. It's faster regardless, they still benefit. They may not benefit as much, but their opponents are also likely doing everything slower since they are likely also playing other noobs, in which case they benefit again.
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment.
If the timings are delayed, they don't benefit from reduced upgrade time
How do they not benefit from it? Maybe their build starts stim 20 seconds later, in which case they will still benefit from it being done 21 seconds FASTER. It's faster regardless, they still benefit. They may not benefit as much, but their opponents are also likely doing everything slower since they are likely also playing other noobs, in which case they benefit again.
The point of a timing is that it exploits a weakness in your opponent.
If no one's playing tight, there's no timing to exploit. It's just an attack. If it's just a random attack, it doesn't matter when the upgrade is done, because it's not exploiting any timing.
I agree with the prism nerf but that stim buff seems like it is overkill. With rush distances being as short as they are with this map pool, WOL-style stim pushes will hit before any meaningful tech counter Protoss can make. Protoss will be literally back at opening robo immortal/sentry so they don't die to a 3rax stim push like in the old days. Plus this buffs the already incredibly strong tank pushes while nothing has been done to ravens to make it so one raven can't disable all of Protoss' colossi or immortals during the tank push. Add to that the new ghost upgrade making mass ghost/viking/liberator even stronger in the lategame, and I can see PvT being even worse than it is now.
The carrier buff and Infestor nerf might help a bit but that won't solve that PvZ is turning back into infestor/broodlord/corruptor/viper with mass static defence. That composition is still borderline too strong for Protoss to beat when done properly. The feedback nerf was the cause of this style coming back, nothing else. The feedback nerf made it so running a group of infestors forward to try and land a fungal or neurals was much less risky since at worst a few infestors might lose energy, rather than being at risk of dying to a feedback. Because of this, engaging the Zerg army as Protoss is now significantly more difficult to do without taking a massive risk and potentially losing an entire air army to chain fungals and neurals along with viper grabs and corruptors.
These changes seem misguided and like they are missing the point, but I think that's been the case since the big December patch. That patch caused several issues, and they've been trying to fix it all ever since. I think the game was much more fun in last year's iteration than how it has been this year, proxies and all.
My 2 cents: PvT - Ghost change is good - more value out of them outside sniping / emping templar. WP change is nice - but not really that big outside of making some of the all ins worse Late game they will have speed prism - so the game ending moments where Protoss flys 2 prisms in and keeps 1 alive and warps in zealots that can't be cleaned up by 8 rax production remains.
Stim change honestly not sure - 3 rax no medevac stim/shields/shells/+1 push will come back for sure - and probably be pretty strong. None of the other timings really change? I feel like defensively tanks / tech units are more important than stim being done earlier - stim without medevacs can actually be worse.
Overall I don't think this change will be enough to fix the matchup though - the early timing (really just one build) will be very strong - and late game I'm not sure larger radius on upgraded ghosts is enough - mass gateway reinforce + mass tempest / robo tech will still dominate T's late game army (which will have worse upgrade timings throughout)
PvZ - WP change is nice for Z with the all ins regarding the chain reinforcing mid fight - but if anything I feel like it will just force the P to push slower because he won't be able to keep the prism juggling the immo's right in the middle of the fight. It still really doesn't address the power of the timings since Z has no way to deal with the prism at those timings outside of queens / bile (which only works while warping - which won't be warping now that 11 seconds etc) - queens don't live long enough to deny the prism. Counter suggestion to the proposed: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Late Game: Mass spore infestor is super strong - infested terran nerf AA nerf with Interceptor buff may help that some but not sure - with fungal / IT combo the interceptors melt pretty fast.
Tvz: Really unsure of ghost implication - will it be possible to hit more than 1 infestor / viper now? If so that's pretty big - but I don't think T is in a very strong spot in late game at the moment so might not be bad. Stim timing: Pretty sure the old Polt 3 rax Marine/Tank timing will make a comeback - but I think Z can hold if they scout well and build ravagers (which weren't around back then) Overall I think TvZ is the least impacted by this patch - which is probably the intent based on the matchup being by far in the best place of all 3 non mirrors.
Overall in the right direction - but honestly believe that TvP needs a full reboot - I don't think the matchup can be salvaged with small changes.
On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote: probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing.
This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment.
If the timings are delayed, they don't benefit from reduced upgrade time
How do they not benefit from it? Maybe their build starts stim 20 seconds later, in which case they will still benefit from it being done 21 seconds FASTER. It's faster regardless, they still benefit. They may not benefit as much, but their opponents are also likely doing everything slower since they are likely also playing other noobs, in which case they benefit again.
The point of a timing is that it exploits a weakness in your opponent.
If no one's playing tight, there's no timing to exploit. It's just an attack. If it's just a random attack, it doesn't matter when the upgrade is done, because it's not exploiting any timing.
No the point of a timing is building everything in a set order to create as lethal of an attack as possible. Its not about the timing it is about the army, if you could get the same army and attack with it 10 seconds earlier you would, because you are not aiming at a specific time you are aiming for a specific army.
The question isn't what time should I attack, the question is at what point can I get the strongest army compared to his army.
If you were right timing attacks would only be used when very specific builds from the opponent are scouted, because that is the only time you would know of an actual "window" of weakness and then you would go at that time with whatever you have. Normally you aim for a timing attack no matter if protoss went twilight or robo, thats just what you're going to do this game, a timing attack.
So yeah, for summary lower levels gain equal value from shorter upgrade times. Its like saying that buffing x units damage is only a buff for GM+ level players because they are the only ones that can micro well enough to really get the most out of that damage buff. Newbie players get the same value from buffs like that since they are playing equally bad opponents.
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
Depends who the person is and their mindset really. The whole way up from bronze to pro gaming you’ll have people who always think their race is the worst, and you’ll have people who are less prone to balance whining.
Pro gamers are an invaluable source of feedback on the viability of certain things, or what x change might mean for sure, as long as their views are mediated a bit by other knowledgeable folk too,
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
Depends who the person is and their mindset really. The whole way up from bronze to pro gaming you’ll have people who always think their race is the worst, and you’ll have people who are less prone to balance whining.
Pro gamers are an invaluable source of feedback on the viability of certain things, or what x change might mean for sure, as long as their views are mediated a bit by other knowledgeable folk too,
they are invaluable data for the current meta tweak because pub players and even most foreigners just dont have the clean execution like them to truly show off wut is strong or not most balance patches are "nerf" for current meta and slightly "buff" to others areas to make them switch thing up but to force most of them to play differently ? a post blizzcon design patch is needed
Wow. They really need to think twice about that stim timing. If they go through with it every zerg on the ladder is going to end up with win rates like 30% ZvT, 50% ZvZ and 70% ZvP (since ladder win rates need to average to 50%). Then we will hear Protoss whine about Zerg being op when the actual problem is the downstream effects of stim timings.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Those two scenarios aren't really comparable. 1) There would almost never be a good idea to fly around a medivac with two tanks to harass or attack with alone. The reason is that a "normal" drop would do more damage faster and since medivacs have 0 pickup range they are much easier to kill or zone while killing the tanks. 2) In an actual fight situation it is almost always better to have the tanks sieged and you cant do it with sieged tanks therefore this trick is almost never usable. The only time you want to unsiege if the fight isn't over is if you need to pick up and gtfo. 3) If due to some rare weird situation there would be a medivac and two tanks on the field vs enemy units it would only be possible to pull off if the opponent have 0 anti air. Because unlike wp medivacs dont have pickup range, this means that while wp can get out of AA range the immortals can fight the opponent while also being safe because of wp pickup range. This in itself makes for natural kiting since wp can drop move away, immortal shots, wp pickup and drops again, immortals shot and so on.
As I've explained doing it with tanks and a medivac is many times harder and in pretty much all fights entirely unviable. Wp and immortals however is not hard and super common. The first couple of times protoss players did this everyone did go nuts just like they do when terran players do it with tanks. Nowadays its commonplace, weird if you dont do it and also not regarded as especially difficult to do.
Overall I don't think this change will be enough to fix the matchup though - the early timing (really just one build) will be very strong - and late game I'm not sure larger radius on upgraded ghosts is enough - mass gateway reinforce + mass tempest / robo tech will still dominate T's late game army (which will have worse upgrade timings throughout)
I think that a slight tweak to Steady Targetting would help against mass gateway reinforce.
late-game scenario: T and P have a huge engagement which wipes out most of the core army (gateway units + MMM). a handful of cloaked ghosts survive because the observer was sniped, but now they are low on energy.
back in WoL, ghosts could stand their ground after the army reset, long enough for reinforcing marines / marauders to join them. you could insta-snipe the mass zealot reinforce, continue to snipe observers and pick off stray units. this was scrappy and fun! I remember stimming marauders all the way across the map to reinforce my ghosts and keep the momentum up. in LotV, you need a chunk of MMM to body-block the zealot reinforce, otherwise steady shot will be cancelled. now the zealots can charge in, get a quick surround on the ghosts, and cancel ~60% of the shots. this has hurt terran's ability to parade-push and play scrappy in the late-game.
insta-snipe is probably gone for good... what I would suggest is a compromise between snipe and steady shot:
After carefully aiming for 1.43 seconds while not taking damage, the Ghost fires a sniper round dealing 170 damage. If damage is taken during the 1.43 second aiming animation, the damage is reduced to 85 (no mana refund).
with this tweak, P still gets a partial reward for disrupting the spell, T gets a partial punishment for casting the spell at an inopportune time, but not punished so hard that he loses all the ghosts to chargelots.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Those two scenarios aren't really comparable. 1) There would almost never be a good idea to fly around a medivac with two tanks to harass or attack with alone. The reason is that a "normal" drop would do more damage faster and since medivacs have 0 pickup range they are much easier to kill or zone while killing the tanks. 2) In an actual fight situation it is almost always better to have the tanks sieged and you cant do it with sieged tanks therefore this trick is almost never usable. The only time you want to unsiege if the fight isn't over is if you need to pick up and gtfo. 3) If due to some rare weird situation there would be a medivac and two tanks on the field vs enemy units it would only be possible to pull off if the opponent have 0 anti air. Because unlike wp medivacs dont have pickup range, this means that while wp can get out of AA range the immortals can fight the opponent while also being safe because of wp pickup range. This in itself makes for natural kiting since wp can drop move away, immortal shots, wp pickup and drops again, immortals shot and so on.
As I've explained doing it with tanks and a medivac is many times harder and in pretty much all fights entirely unviable. Wp and immortals however is not hard and super common. The first couple of times protoss players did this everyone did go nuts just like they do when terran players do it with tanks. Nowadays its commonplace, weird if you dont do it and also not regarded as especially difficult to do.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Pretty sure everyone thought tankivacs were stupid and complained about them, funnily enough especially in TvZ early game where, you guessed it, Zerg had no reasonable counter.
edit: If you mean just tanks unsieged in a medivac, then yes the two are entirely uncomparable. Warp prisms and Immortals both regenerate health and warp prism have a much easier time staying safe due to the pick up range. Terran with tanks in a medivac can in no way do what immortals in a warp prism do.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Pretty sure everyone thought tankivacs were stupid and complained about them, funnily enough especially in TvZ early game where, you guessed it, Zerg had no reasonable counter.
edit: If you mean just tanks unsieged in a medivac, then yes the two are entirely uncomparable. Warp prisms and Immortals both regenerate health and warp prism have a much easier time staying safe due to the pick up range. Terran with tanks in a medivac can in no way do what immortals in a warp prism do.
Just admit that you jizz your pants when ByuN juggled those tanks to abuse the roaches but scream "PROTOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!" when a Protoss player does it. I won't judge you.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
Saying you can't get legit balance feedback from them is a bad way to phrase it, but balance feedback from progamers should absolutely be taken with a truck full of salt considering that they do have a very direct benefit from their race being strong.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Not from a range where units in the ground cant target the medevac tho. Theres a timer on it.. thats very different
nah man dont try to act like tankivacs werent also an absolutely gigantic load of bullshit lol
Tankivacs didn't survive 2016. The clip I linked was ByuN juggling unsieged tanks to dodge roach shots. Something that causes Twitch chat Terrans to cream their pants but scream PROTOSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if it is a Warp Prism and Immortals.
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
You're whining that Protoss has too keep some units in their base to defend vs drop/nydus? Am I understanding this correct? LOL.
Try not to keep defending units in your base vs Warprism as Zerg for example.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: My 2 cents: PvT - Ghost change is good - more value out of them outside sniping / emping templar. WP change is nice - but not really that big outside of making some of the all ins worse Late game they will have speed prism - so the game ending moments where Protoss flys 2 prisms in and keeps 1 alive and warps in zealots that can't be cleaned up by 8 rax production remains.
Stim change honestly not sure - 3 rax no medevac stim/shields/shells/+1 push will come back for sure - and probably be pretty strong. None of the other timings really change? I feel like defensively tanks / tech units are more important than stim being done earlier - stim without medevacs can actually be worse.
Overall I don't think this change will be enough to fix the matchup though - the early timing (really just one build) will be very strong - and late game I'm not sure larger radius on upgraded ghosts is enough - mass gateway reinforce + mass tempest / robo tech will still dominate T's late game army (which will have worse upgrade timings throughout)
PvZ - WP change is nice for Z with the all ins regarding the chain reinforcing mid fight - but if anything I feel like it will just force the P to push slower because he won't be able to keep the prism juggling the immo's right in the middle of the fight. It still really doesn't address the power of the timings since Z has no way to deal with the prism at those timings outside of queens / bile (which only works while warping - which won't be warping now that 11 seconds etc) - queens don't live long enough to deny the prism. Counter suggestion to the proposed: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Late Game: Mass spore infestor is super strong - infested terran nerf AA nerf with Interceptor buff may help that some but not sure - with fungal / IT combo the interceptors melt pretty fast.
Tvz: Really unsure of ghost implication - will it be possible to hit more than 1 infestor / viper now? If so that's pretty big - but I don't think T is in a very strong spot in late game at the moment so might not be bad. Stim timing: Pretty sure the old Polt 3 rax Marine/Tank timing will make a comeback - but I think Z can hold if they scout well and build ravagers (which weren't around back then) Overall I think TvZ is the least impacted by this patch - which is probably the intent based on the matchup being by far in the best place of all 3 non mirrors.
Overall in the right direction - but honestly believe that TvP needs a full reboot - I don't think the matchup can be salvaged with small changes.
You dont underestimate the power of 2 radius emp. It was nerfed back then for a reason.
I just wish the Protoss lategame wouldn't be centered around a transition to mass carriers as the most potent option.
But, I do like the warp prism nerf.
I think the ghost change is kind of .. really huge. Lategame hits and all the sudden all the protoss units lose half their hp basically immediately, and there's not really a way to stop it.
The raw power of protoss lategame versus terran has mostly to do with the deathball that results from HT, Collosus, and meat. Wouldn't it be prudent to add collision to the colossus instead? That would do the trick. I like that better than making everything in the lategame dependent on spellcasters. That's a person preference though.
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
Warp Prism changes are not addressing their core issue, which is the pick up range and the Immortal/Archon juggling capabilities that are cooked in from the start.
Remove that garbage gimmick and balance accordingly.
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Not from a range where units in the ground cant target the medevac tho. Theres a timer on it.. thats very different
nah man dont try to act like tankivacs werent also an absolutely gigantic load of bullshit lol
Tankivacs didn't survive 2016. The clip I linked was ByuN juggling unsieged tanks to dodge roach shots. Something that causes Twitch chat Terrans to cream their pants but scream PROTOSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if it is a Warp Prism and Immortals.
That's a terrible comparison, it's far harder and riskier to micro when you don't have 6 pickup range. Not to mention the payoff is way lower because Terran units have less health and no regenerating shields.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Not from a range where units in the ground cant target the medevac tho. Theres a timer on it.. thats very different
nah man dont try to act like tankivacs werent also an absolutely gigantic load of bullshit lol
Lolol im not talking about tankivacs.. im talking about this so called "imba" medevac juggling that no pro seems to use bc the medevac actually has to fly up to the units its juggling...or let me put it this way.. any Toss actually whining about terran medevac juggling should be cool with nerfing WP Prism range to medevac range lmao
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it.
How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument.
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it.
How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument.
Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer?
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base. I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion.
His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone
Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad.
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
It's actually quite common for Toss to keep some Templars back. To generate energy and to stop drops. Also multiple casters stated that 1 single cyclone is enough in most cases to deter any WP...
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it.
How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument.
Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer?
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base. I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion.
His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone
Wow didn't think i'd spark such conversation. My point was i feel terran complain about the WP and the warpin's but if they did have that viking patroling, or units back then they would be able to stop a WP quite easily. Protoss players have used to have HT's back to feedback medivacs. Now we do have things like DT's, Immortals etc back to defend with shield batteries and they even wall off from run-bys etc.
I was theory crafting that an EMP on a warp prism or even the zealots that spawn, would make them significantly weaker.
I just find it quite hypocritical when protoss do have to have stalkers back to watch out for widow mines.. and if one of those mines gets in early game then it is essentially a game ending move. Nezger explained this very well
I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. Defensive bunkers? (equivalent of a shield battery).. never used. Walling in units so zealots cant hit them? never happens. My "shit post" was mocking the nerf when other races (terran) consistently do game ending damage with drops to protoss. Boost in, drop widow mines.. kill 17 workers.. boost out
How is a 4 second warp in the issue ? I just think that protoss gets shafted every patch whilst other races don't even use the tools they have.
The nerfs to protoss basically stop them pushing and make it even harder for them to put any pressure on a terrans back line. We have legit forms of harrass (maybe 3). WP, Oracles and Phoenixs. The cyclone shuts down the latter 2 so now they are nerfing the other other form of harass?
the whole point of an RTS is to exploit weakness where it can be found. If you know they can warp in 20 units of tier 1 supply then plan for it.
On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad.
You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad.
You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
And people weren't complaining about Protoss being OP?
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it.
How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument.
Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer?
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base. I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion.
His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone
Wow didn't think i'd spark such conversation. My point was i feel terran complain about the WP and the warpin's but if they did have that viking patroling, or units back then they would be able to stop a WP quite easily. Protoss players have used to have HT's back to feedback medivacs. Now we do have things like DT's, Immortals etc back to defend with shield batteries and they even wall off from run-bys etc.
I was theory crafting that an EMP on a warp prism or even the zealots that spawn, would make them significantly weaker.
I just find it quite hypocritical when protoss do have to have stalkers back to watch out for widow mines.. and if one of those mines gets in early game then it is essentially a game ending move. Nezger explained this very well
I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. Defensive bunkers? (equivalent of a shield battery).. never used. Walling in units so zealots cant hit them? never happens. My "shit post" was mocking the nerf when other races (terran) consistently do game ending damage with drops to protoss. Boost in, drop widow mines.. kill 17 workers.. boost out
How is a 4 second warp in the issue ? I just think that protoss gets shafted every patch whilst other races don't even use the tools they have.
The nerfs to protoss basically stop them pushing and make it even harder for them to put any pressure on a terrans back line. We have legit forms of harrass (maybe 3). WP, Oracles and Phoenixs. The cyclone shuts down the latter 2 so now they are nerfing the other other form of harass?
the whole point of an RTS is to exploit weakness where it can be found. If you know they can warp in 20 units of tier 1 supply then plan for it.
Wow, that is very reasonable, sorry for my offensive tone =P
Regarding your argument that terran players should "plan" for it by viking/holding units back/cyclone, you make it sound so easy but if there is no way for any player of any race to prepare for everything the opponent can do. If you build cyclones defensively you open yourself up to other vulnarabilities because of the things you don't have because you got cyclones. You also lose ability to attack the opponent, maybe you can harass back but if your opponent defends that and outgreeds you it was simply a bad strategic decision to "get ready for wp harass".
Your argument reminds me a lot of the old saying "how do you stop protoss deathball/skytoss - by not letting them get there".
"Just prepare for it", "just kill them before", "just do x". Its not that simple and thats why we love starcraft.
WP is too strong because it too small of a risk for the protoss, the reason its worth of protoss to keep units back to defend is because if they kill the terran drop they also kill a big part of the army. Not only do you defend a possible vulnerability but you can also get and edge, if terran keeps units back to kill a wp they gain almost nothing. Some production time on the robotics, its not worth to keep units back for that. In my opinion its too strong, (imagine protoss has 2 wp) if terran keeps units back protoss can just warpin with their army in 4 secs, get army advantage on the frontline and win headon. If terran don't keep units back protoss warpin 11 zealots in the main/natural and stall/runaway form the main fight. Protoss keeps the threat of heavy warpin at almost no cost and at basically 0 risk, medivacs take units away from the army and are high risk.
I agree that a viking is an easy counter but to always just have viking "just in case" is quite a bit of a wasted asset early on. Its a little like worker scouting, it is easy to do, it helps and costs little but because its so early on in the game a small cost is a big cost.
One very important factor about starcraft is to cut corners, if you try to play safe in every way you opponent will likely gain a huge economic edge because staying safe is both expensive, slow and means not focusing on the offense so you cant punish.
I do agree with a lot you say, there are tools terran can use but there are mostly reasons for why they do not, the viking I really agree with you about though. It is a cheap and good way to prevent that the wp harass never ends.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base.
I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus
I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main.
Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games.
"when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds.
It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it.
How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument.
Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer?
On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base. I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion.
His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone
i feel terran complain about the WP and the warpin's but if they did have that viking patroling, or units back then they would be able to stop a WP quite easily. Protoss players have used to have HT's back to feedback medivacs. Now we do have things like DT's, Immortals etc back to defend with shield batteries and they even wall off from run-bys etc.
1 viking on patrol or units back home? this does not stop a warp prism
1 viking on patrol and 3 turrets andunits back home? this deflects the prism, but does not necessarily kill the prism. a smart protoss player will simply retreat, realizing that the prism has already paid for itself. 300 minerals (turrets) + 50 minerals (lost mining time) + 150 minerals, 75 gas (1 viking)
if the prism follows the northernmost horizontal arrow, the viking gets 1 shot off, P sees the turret and turns around.
if the prism follows the middle arrow (slightly north of T's third), same story.
if the prism follows the westernmost vertical arrow, it comfortably survives the turret and drops 4 adepts or 4 zealots in the natural. if T is lucky with the barracks production cycle, he will have 3 freshly spawned marauders and 4 marines to deal with the drop. if T is unlucky, there will be a huge warp-in.
meanwhile, P is saturating an uncontested third base and threatening T's third with a large gateway army. T certainly can't go on the offensive after spending 500 minerals on static defense and a viking.
this scenario takes place during the fragile early-mid phase, when T is still trying to power up and saturate his third. HT's were used to feedback medivacs in the late-mid phase of HotS. losing 1 worker at the 14-minute mark is far, far better than losing 1 worker at the 3-minute mark. likewise, spending 500 minerals on dedicated defense in the late-mid is a much lesser investment than spending 500 minerals in the early-mid phase.
if T wants to contest P's third, T needs to sacrifice the viking, at least 1 of those turrets, and rally his barracks across the map to reinforce the push. this gives the warp prism complete freedom to zip into T's main. once T's push is held, P can afford to warp 20 supply of zealots and keep T pinned back while taking a fourth.
your theory-crafting fails to consider the delicate timings, resource limitations and macro mechanics of TvP. it's blindingly obvious that warp prisms are too much, too early of a threat. securing a third base should be a skill in-and-of itself. among pro terrans, Maru is the best at it, yet he still takes heavy loses while struggling to secure a third.
I was theory crafting that an EMP on a warp prism or even the zealots that spawn, would make them significantly weaker.
I just find it quite hypocritical when protoss do have to have stalkers back to watch out for widow mines.. and if one of those mines gets in early game then it is essentially a game ending move.
your example of keeping stalkers at home to defend early mine drops is not even comparable to what T is facing right now. mine drops rarely end the game. the whole point of 2019 mine drops is to interrupt mining (not necessarily kill probes), to force some defensive units (stalkers, which you were gonna build anyway), and to scout your infrastructure. non-stop mine drops are no longer viable because twilight counter-attacks are so strong. glaives follow-up? mass blink follow-up? terran with few or no tanks? good night terran. just watch Maru's GSL game vs. Patience. no... there is no such thing as non-stop mine drops. the scariest thing P has to face is a single medivac with 3 widow mines. OK... it's better for terran to drop the mines ASAP (remember the rule? losing 1 worker at the 14-minute mark is far, far better than losing 1 worker at the 3-minute mark). so what happens if you open twilight and terran simply camps the dead space with his medivac? you have to keep 1 stalker in each mineral line and pull the probes away when the mine burrows. the mines are on a timer (T can only burrow / unburrow once, sometimes no reburrowing at all). is that really so scary? compared to all the shit P can throw in the early game? comeonnow.jpg
I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. Defensive bunkers? (equivalent of a shield battery).. never used.
comparing a zero-supply, 6-range "shield medic" to a structure which needs army supply, load / unload micro, mineral repairs and maybe even damaging your own units while they stim inside the bunker. yeah right...
Walling in units so zealots cant hit them? never happens.
there's a good reason it never happens. T can't safely wall-off the natural with supply depots in the early phase. T needs to keep his tank back a bit (behind the bunker, hugging the CC, out of range of the stalkers firing at the depots). you risk losing the tank or risk losing the depots. remember what I said about losing stuff so early in the game? not worth it. third base, tight wall-ins? bad idea, unless your playing on Thunderbird or King's Cove. do you mean walling in units on the fly? running units into a corner and building engi bays around them? I mean, OK... might be tough with zealots blocking the construction tiles.
Boost in, drop widow mines.. kill 17 workers.. boost out
I miss HotS
The nerfs to protoss basically stop them pushing and make it even harder for them to put any pressure on a terrans back line. We have legit forms of harrass (maybe 3). WP, Oracles and Phoenixs. The cyclone shuts down the latter 2 so now they are nerfing the other other form of harass?
1 cyclone shuts down an oracle and 4 phoenix? you know T can't make more than 1 or 2 cyclones in TvP, right? cyclones fall off pretty darn fast and we need that factory to build other things. remember the blink follow-up? adept follow-up? T needs tanks to defend that. having enough widow mines to deal with the chargelots when we pressure the uncontested third that you have already taken behind your oracle / phoenix harass?
the whole point of an RTS is to exploit weakness where it can be found. If you know they can warp in 20 units of tier 1 supply then plan for it.
funny how P is able to find and exploit the same weakness over and over again. it's not feasible for Terran to keep a chunk of T1 units at home, at all times, to deal with the mere possibility of a chargelot warp-in - nor is it feasible to build a ghost academy and 1 ghost for the sole purpose of EMPing your warp prism in the resource-hungry early-mid phase. the best T can do is build 2 turrets, hope that the barracks reinforcements spawn just in the nick of time, or hope that P fucks up somehow.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad.
You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
And people weren't complaining about Protoss being OP?
Back then people were complaining about Terran being overpowered, because they were. Terran got a Blue flame hellion nerf right around the time they fixed archon toilet and buffed zealots by a lot.
This is going to be a rather heavy handed post, because I'm sick of balance whining. If players of SCBW were as big of babies as the community (and even certain pro-gamers) are in today's world they would have been fined or banned from KeSPA immediately for poor conduct and in NO WAY would brood war have been such the legend of a game it is today.
It would be nice to see some leashes put on influencers like heromarine. It hasn't been since IdrA that someone has given me such a headache when I have to ask why he still even plays the fucking game at this point for how much he complains. There's nothing wrong with having your opinions, but when you are paid to play a video game at a high level don't be such a cunt about it and expect to still get paid. Keep it on the ladder when you're not sponsored and have such a toxic effect on the community.
I'm not saying Balance cannot be talked about, IMO warp prism has always been a sketchy concept, and some revisions could make the margin of error far better in terms of gameplay, but when you have actual pros saying shit like "remove protoss from the game" it's obviously going to trickle down through the community.
There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL. BW was always T > Z > P > T, pros accept that because they love the game and the mechanics make it an INHERENT concept for the game to be the way it is, you cannot play bio (in brood war) VS protoss or you die, it was an inherent limitation of the matchup. Terran gets bodied by splash damage, obviously, when approaching the PvT match-up you have to take that into consideration. If protoss got a recall off into your main in BW and you weren't ready with a proper sim city or mines, better econ, then you deserve to lose in regards to that matchup. Sometimes the entire matchup revolves around certain concepts, and that's fine.
How about Zerg complaints? Let's take a look at Protoss vs Zerg in Brood War, shall we? Zerg has variety of options/All-ins to butt fudge protoss at every stage of the game? Check Hard to scout what zerg is doing, extremely critical to know EXACTLY what's coming at you? Check
Oh my, it almost seems like a game with zero balance patches in over a decade has the exact same "problems" Zergs are whining about in starcraft 2, look how much the metagame has shifted over a decade of zero interaction from devs. The historical win rate for P in that matchup is (relative to sc2's pretty good track record) absolute garbage. Yet there have still been periods of absolute Protoss domination within regards to the metagame, which we are likely experiencing now in SC2.
Yet there are still Zerg's absolutely slaying them, those zergs are pushing the meta forward. Guess what, it's the zergs who love the game and play with what they're given, while the whiners are left to whine.
Starcraft is too fucking beautiful to let whiners bring it down to that level, how many retarded balance changes have been implemented because of percieved whining instead of actual design decisions for legitimate reasons to make the game better? We will never know, but i guarentee that if SC2 set out to be a good game first, and an esport second it would be a much better game than it is.
Even just look at all the fuss about Thunderbird and Turbo Cruise before they were put on the ladder, all the whiners in the world came out and pro gamers said they would never touch the map, some of the most interesting games we've had in years were played on those maps! I love those features! Whiners and pro gamers have a bigger effect than they realize, if you give them power they ruin the game.
Just make the most beautiful RTS in the world blizzard, fuck the haters.
On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote: There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL.
Any hope you had of anyone at all taking you remotely seriously was lost here. I really hate to just go off but this is in all honesty the single most ridiculous post in this entire thread.
Also, comparing Heromarine to Idra is completely ridiculous. The worst I've seen Heromarine do in terms of BM is leaving games without a GG and manner muling. He doesn't throw slurs at people, and is almost always polite to his competitors and community members. Compare this to Idra, who constantly said that the game was bad, flipped people off at events, regularly refused to shake hands, and called the entire community a bunch of idiots who he gets paid to treat like shit. It isn't even close.
On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote: There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL.
Any hope you had of anyone at all taking you remotely seriously was lost here. I really hate to just go off but this is in all honesty the single most ridiculous post in this entire thread.
Also, comparing Heromarine to Idra is completely ridiculous. The worst I've seen Heromarine do in terms of BM is leaving games without a GG and manner muling. He doesn't throw slurs at people, and is almost always polite to his competitors and community members. Compare this to Idra, who constantly said that the game was bad, flipped people off at events, regularly refused to shake hands, and called the entire community a bunch of idiots who he gets paid to treat like shit. It isn't even close.
IdrA was extremely BM, Heromarine is not. When it comes to balance whine, Heromarine surely is notable, and he is not even the only EU Terran who is vocal about perceived balance to a level you wouldn't expect from a progamer.
On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote: There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL.
Any hope you had of anyone at all taking you remotely seriously was lost here. I really hate to just go off but this is in all honesty the single most ridiculous post in this entire thread.
Also, comparing Heromarine to Idra is completely ridiculous. The worst I've seen Heromarine do in terms of BM is leaving games without a GG and manner muling. He doesn't throw slurs at people, and is almost always polite to his competitors and community members. Compare this to Idra, who constantly said that the game was bad, flipped people off at events, regularly refused to shake hands, and called the entire community a bunch of idiots who he gets paid to treat like shit. It isn't even close.
IdrA was extremely BM, Heromarine is not. When it comes to balance whine, Heromarine surely is notable, and he is not even the only EU Terran who is vocal about perceived balance to a level you wouldn't expect from a progamer.
Absolutely agree. The idea that something "needs to be done" about Heromarine is laughable.
On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote: Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad.
You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
Then again when they removed the MSC and they ended up giving them stronger zealots and stalkers.
never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
As opposed to Terran whine which consists of ‘you literally can’t spare a single unit to defend prisms’ as if it’s that tight
There’s plenty of optimisations Terrans can make, keeping initial cyclones if they survive in your main instead of occupying Xel’Naga towers or being bunched with your army etc
Current Robo tech PvZ which people are complaining about, and Zerg seem to be figuring out anyway came from Protoss being outright nerfed in the late game
Protoss had a smooth transition from opening Stargate into gate/Templar/Immortal into Carriers so they could play straight macro PvZ. Templars got nerfed so they can’t snipe infestors and vipers.
People moaned so Carriers got nerfed, that transition sucked and so they figured out a bunch of Robo-centric timings
Now, provided this patch goes through literally anything Robo-centric is outright worse in every way. Every timing or harass hits slightly slower
Protoss bullshit timings are now outright worse, but they have nothing to compensate for that in PvZ.
Your timings are all worse, all of them and you don’t have a legit macro style to play in the matchup beyond a certain level. Your harassment is all worse even the non-commital kind.
But oh I suppose they’re good changes because Terran whiners are placated.
Ok. Maybe protoss will end up too weak at first after those warp prism changes. But its nothing we cant fix in the end of year patch or another patch.
I think nerfing offensive warpins is very, very, very good for the game in the long term.
If we want ZvP to be more like ZvT, the best matchup in sc2, defender advantage needs to be better in the matchup.
As ppl get fired left and right in Blizzard and budget cuts happen, we need to understand we are not going to get balance patches for much longer.
If we want the game to be in a state like broodwar where it can be good for decades, can we really afford to stay on the current PvZ meta of 2 base all-ins being so strong every game? Games ending in one attack?
No. We need to get ZvP closer to what ZvT feels like, where both players have good defender advantage and come back potential. Where games are decided by many many moves instead of just one fight into gg.
Sure, maybe protoss will end up weak for a bit after the warp-prism nerf, but then from there we can adjust with the final patch of the year ( and maybe of SC2 life time).
We need to focus on hitting a good final game state for sc2, like ii said, we wont keep getting patches forever.
Can we all work as a whole instead of fighting each other, and find solutions to make protoss matchups better? Currently everyone hates playing against protoss, including protoss.
If every player could veto a race they dont want to play against, how long do you think protoss queues would be right now?
never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
As opposed to Terran whine which consists of ‘you literally can’t spare a single unit to defend prisms’ as if it’s that tight
did you bother reading post #207? I demonstrated that T needs much more than a single cyclone or viking to defend prisms while also securing a third base. instead, you chose to attack a position that I don't actually hold. nice
There’s plenty of optimisations Terrans can make, keeping initial cyclones if they survive in your main instead of occupying Xel’Naga towers or being bunched with your army etc
first, nobody uses their cyclone to occupy a Xel'Naga tower during in the early-mid phase, when serious prism harass and mass warp-ins become relevant. second, initial cyclones with an "s" aren't a thing. T can afford to make a singular cyclone. after this, the factory is occupied by tank production, then either widow mines (vs. twilight / gateway) or continued tanks (vs. robo). the only exception to the 1-cyclone rule is when P opens stargate. try holding a blink into the main with 2 cyclones instead of a tank and you'll see what I mean - or just watch some pro games, up to you.
I can only assume that you don't understand what the warp prism "threat phase" of the game actually looks like. T either goes for a 2-base all-in off of 5 raxx, heavy 2-base pressure off of 3-raxx with a late third behind, or a 3rd cc before powering up to 5 raxx.
when T is 2-basing, the prism becomes a game-ending threat when T is on the other side of the map, trying to contest the greedy third. it can play out a number of different ways: an initial 3 zealot drop with no immediate mass warp-in, at that critical moment when T needs to pay full attention to his army. once the pendulum swings even slightly in P's favour on the front line, the warp prism can zip into your main and warp 20 supply of zealots. the world's your oyster at this point: camp outside T's late third with your main army, while zealots go to town on T's workers. rinse, repeat, wait for T to split his army incorrectly, then pounce on that weakness.
third point on the cyclone: T 100% needs the cyclone in his main army when 2-base pushing across the map vs. blink stalkers. without the cyclone to ward off blink stalkers, T loses too many marines on the journey and then gets cleaned up by zealots. this interaction is best explained by TY and Special in their private lesson series:
when T is 3-basing, you can keep the cyclone at home to defend against prisms. however, as I demonstrated in post #207, a single viking or a single cyclone cannot provide adequate defense. what you really need is 2-3 turrets (350 minerals incl. the lost mining time) and a cyclone or viking. as I also demonstrated in post #207, this happens during the early-mid phase when T is resource-hungry and cannot comfortably afford a core army and so much dedicated prism defense. T is struggling to survive the precarious 3rd base defense in which warp prisms can zippity-doo-dah into your main, while a large gateway army waits to pounce at the front - that's the real issue here. taking a 3rd vP is such a bad idea that nobody does it. why do you think Terrans are 2-base all-inning every game?
you make it sound like defending the current prism is so easy for Terran. you argue against an avilo terran whiner scarecrow even though most of the Terrans in this thread are offering fair arguments. why? most of the community (players, casters, P players, T players) all agree that prism needs a nerf.
I don't know anything about PvZ, but what I can offer on that front is an equivalence in proxy-era TvP. tornado blaster cyclones were cancer, but they kept TvP in balance. does this mean that the far superior lock-on mechanic should be abandoned in favour of the old proxy meta? NO. that's not how you improve the game. Blizz should keep what's good, keep what's fun, and find other ways to compensate for the removal of lop-sided crutch units like the warp prism.
can you think of any ways in which P could be reimbursed for the warp prism vZ, without upsetting the balance vT? there's your ticket to some serious discussion.
But oh I suppose they’re good changes because Terran whiners are placated.
never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
As opposed to Terran whine which consists of ‘you literally can’t spare a single unit to defend prisms’ as if it’s that tight
did you bother reading post #207? I demonstrated that T needs much more than a single cyclone or viking to defend prisms while also securing a third base. instead, you chose to attack a position that I don't actually hold. nice
There’s plenty of optimisations Terrans can make, keeping initial cyclones if they survive in your main instead of occupying Xel’Naga towers or being bunched with your army etc
first, nobody uses their cyclone to occupy a Xel'Naga tower during in the early-mid phase, when serious prism harass and mass warp-ins become relevant. second, initial cyclones with an "s" aren't a thing. T can afford to make a singular cyclone. after this, the factory is occupied by tank production, then either widow mines (vs. twilight / gateway) or continued tanks (vs. robo). the only exception to the 1-cyclone rule is when P opens stargate. try holding a blink into the main with 2 cyclones instead of a tank and you'll see what I mean - or just watch some pro games, up to you.
I can only assume that you don't understand what the warp prism "threat phase" of the game actually looks like. T either goes for a 2-base all-in off of 5 raxx, heavy 2-base pressure off of 3-raxx with a late third behind, or a 3rd cc before powering up to 5 raxx.
when T is 2-basing, the prism becomes a game-ending threat when T is on the other side of the map, trying to contest the greedy third. it can play out a number of different ways: an initial 3 zealot drop with no immediate mass warp-in, at that critical moment when T needs to pay full attention to his army. once the pendulum swings even slightly in P's favour on the front line, the warp prism can zip into your main and warp 20 supply of zealots. the world's your oyster at this point: camp outside T's late third with your main army, while zealots go to town on T's workers. rinse, repeat, wait for T to split his army incorrectly, then pounce on that weakness.
third point on the cyclone: T 100% needs the cyclone in his main army when 2-base pushing across the map vs. blink stalkers. without the cyclone to ward off blink stalkers, T loses too many marines on the journey and then gets cleaned up by zealots. this interaction is best explained by TY and Special in their private lesson series:
when T is 3-basing, you can keep the cyclone at home to defend against prisms. however, as I demonstrated in post #207, a single viking or a single cyclone cannot provide adequate defense. what you really need is 2-3 turrets (350 minerals incl. the lost mining time) and a cyclone or viking. as I also demonstrated in post #207, this happens during the early-mid phase when T is resource-hungry and cannot comfortably afford a core army and so much dedicated prism defense. T is struggling to survive the precarious 3rd base defense in which warp prisms can zippity-doo-dah into your main, while a large gateway army waits to pounce at the front - that's the real issue here. taking a 3rd vP is such a bad idea that nobody does it. why do you think Terrans are 2-base all-inning every game?
you make it sound like defending the current prism is so easy for Terran. you argue against an avilo terran whiner scarecrow even though most of the Terrans in this thread are offering fair arguments. why? most of the community (players, casters, P players, T players) all agree that prism needs a nerf.
I don't know anything about PvZ, but what I can offer on that front is an equivalence in proxy-era TvP. tornado blaster cyclones were cancer, but they kept TvP in balance. does this mean that the far superior lock-on mechanic should be abandoned in favour of the old proxy meta? NO. that's not how you improve the game. Blizz should keep what's good, keep what's fun, and find other ways to compensate for the removal of lop-sided crutch units like the warp prism.
can you think of any ways in which P could be reimbursed for the warp prism vZ, without upsetting the balance vT? there's your ticket to some serious discussion.
But oh I suppose they’re good changes because Terran whiners are placated.
blah, blah, blah
In Depth, the episode they do Maru vs Neeb they focus hard on that he had a surviving early game cyclone + turrets, but pulled it with his army and away from defending with his turret ring.
A game he ultimately won anyway, but he pulled his cyclone needlessly away to his main army and his planned defence.
1 cyclone, plus turrets can absolutely deal with a prism
Terrans just want to complain endlessly instead of figuring things out.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
It’s amazing how tight Terran macro is that they can’t spare a few hundred minerals to defend anything even at obvious times, such as being backstabbed at their standard push timings.
It’s a miracle how the people who think they belong to the master race even win games when their timings are so tight that they can’t spare a couple of hundred minerals to defend themselves against backstabs
Zergs build extra queens and spores against aggression, Protoss build batteries and split units, why should Terran literally not build any defences wharsoever because their timings are so tight that they can’t spare 2 marines worth of resources or whatever?
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
It’s amazing how tight Terran macro is that they can’t spare a few hundred minerals to defend anything even at obvious times, such as being backstabbed at their standard push timings.
It’s a miracle how the people who think they belong to the master race even win games when their timings are so tight that they can’t spare a couple of hundred minerals to defend themselves against backstabs
Zergs build extra queens and spores against aggression, Protoss build batteries and split units, why should Terran literally not build any defences wharsoever because their timings are so tight that they can’t spare 2 marines worth of resources or whatever?
to be fair, its a whole lot more than 2 marines worth. closer to 20.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
It’s amazing how tight Terran macro is that they can’t spare a few hundred minerals to defend anything even at obvious times, such as being backstabbed at their standard push timings.
It’s a miracle how the people who think they belong to the master race even win games when their timings are so tight that they can’t spare a couple of hundred minerals to defend themselves against backstabs
Zergs build extra queens and spores against aggression, Protoss build batteries and split units, why should Terran literally not build any defences wharsoever because their timings are so tight that they can’t spare 2 marines worth of resources or whatever?
Shodan is literally answering your every question, you evade his every question and argue with senseless mush.
Seriously, are you still in the wol whine state of: "X race has to do Y, then all races also have to do Y otherwise it is unfair and badly balanced". No, just because protoss gets shield batteries that doesn't mean terran have to get bunkers in order for the game to be balanced and fun
I'm not at all knowledgable about the current game state but I do know that units doesn't appear out of thin air. If terran is doing a timing push it isn't just a question of "a couple of hundred minerals", it is the question of where those minerals are taken from AND the build time of the factory if you want a defensive cyclone that badly. Take away one tank from an early tank push timing and its success rate will plummet to the depth of the sea.
As Shodan wrote, its about the threat of the wp, protoss pay 200 minerals and build time on the robotics and if terran makes a dedicated attack protoss backstabs, which means terran cant make a dedicated attack which means protoss can greed and we all know what happens when protoss get ahead economically vs any race.
Zerg has an easier time vs wp because they can make a lot of units quicker than T and their units are generally faster, queens are useful throughout the whole game, cyclones and vikings are not.
The difference between protoss spliting units and terran spliting units is that protoss has to do it against actual army supply, terran would have to split an army that can handle 8 zealots just because protoss has the threat to warp in 8 zealots. If terran does split protoss just fight headon and win that fight. Wp is a vulnerability tool, either you split and weaken your main army so P wins the headon fight or T don't split and then P warpin the main. Thats not how any other race works, terran has split army supply to drop and zerg neef 14 sec build time nydus which is comparable and fair to 11 secs warpin time, not 4 secs like you have now.
I and others have explained this multiple times but either you dont comprehend it or you don't argree but dont have any decent argument because you seem unable to reply to this.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the main problem with the WP is the backstabbing potential when Terran is moving out right? And I mean a normal move out, not an All-In cause then it is over with WP or without.
A normal push is designed to scare Protoss and mabye do some damage. At this stage in the game IMO a few minerals to defend your base isn't too much to ask is it? If you open with a cyclone vs stalkers harass, leave it in your base. Cyclone + 1 Turret deters a WP pretty much. And even if not, it will be a drop and not a warp in (cause Cyclone obviously)
Now all who are saying Protoss has to do the same, it's only kinda true. Because Toss don't like to leave Stalkers at home, but they can ezpz Warp in 4 Stalkers to defend, which is something Terran can't. They do however need to make batteries in every base.
The patrolling Viking is more useful to get a early warning (when you are got enough to see it) but doesn't really stop a WP in my experience.
On July 04 2019 18:01 Freeborn wrote: The terran WP argument is total BS. Terran might maybe have a slight disadvantage but the WP is not the cause.
Medivac drops can do way more damage and quickly switch between bases without comitting.
A warp in is almost always 100% comitted and most of the time means you lose it all.
Lets compare a standard WP attack with a standard drop.
WP = Flys in with 4 zealots and unloads them. If they spot too much defense they get picked up again and most of the time savely escape unless you got 2 Vikings on spot. And if you don't got enough defense at your base you face a big warp in that sets you whole base on fire and destroys eco and production.
MV = Most of the time you scan ahead before you drop your boys to be safe. But even if you do the possibilty of a observer on your way to the base is always given. So already 1 mule less. So if you scan and its save your boost in and drop your most of the time 2 medivacs. So you stim and spread chaos while the toss warps units or recalls his units from anywhere.
What would you say if both players react as fast a possible will more damage be done?
On July 04 2019 18:01 Freeborn wrote: The terran WP argument is total BS. Terran might maybe have a slight disadvantage but the WP is not the cause.
Medivac drops can do way more damage and quickly switch between bases without comitting.
A warp in is almost always 100% comitted and most of the time means you lose it all.
Lets compare a standard WP attack with a standard drop.
WP = Flys in with 4 zealots and unloads them. If they spot too much defense they get picked up again and most of the time savely escape unless you got 2 Vikings on spot. And if you don't got enough defense at your base you face a big warp in that sets you whole base on fire and destroys eco and production.
MV = Most of the time you scan ahead before you drop your boys to be safe. But even if you do the possibilty of a observer on your way to the base is always given. So already 1 mule less. So if you scan and its save your boost in and drop your most of the time 2 medivacs. So you stim and spread chaos while the toss warps units or recalls his units from anywhere.
What would you say if both players react as fast a possible will more damage be done?
You forgot that toss can recall the wp when it's in a tight spot while medivac needs to pray hail mary 10x so it may not die
I like the direction they go, maybe only something like 8 instead of 11 seconds warp in but instead nerf WP-pickup range by 1?
What i dont get is: why buff carriers and nerf infestors at the same time? What they should do is make SOME carriers more viable in lategame but what they actually will do is encourage turtle play into MASS carriers with some HT Mothership.
Maybe just start with the carrier buff or the infestor nerf and see how it turns out? Problem will probably always be mass carriers being either insanely good or pretty bad.
On July 04 2019 19:05 Decendos wrote: I like the direction they go, maybe only something like 8 instead of 11 seconds warp in but instead nerf WP-pickup range by 1?
What i dont get is: why buff carriers and nerf infestors at the same time? What they should do is make SOME carriers more viable in lategame but what they actually will do is encourage turtle play into MASS carriers with some HT Mothership.
Maybe just start with the carrier buff or the infestor nerf and see how it turns out? Problem will probably always be mass carriers being either insanely good or pretty bad.
They should've increased the supply of all air units ages ago, so it's way worse to turtle and mass them.
On July 04 2019 18:01 Freeborn wrote: The terran WP argument is total BS. Terran might maybe have a slight disadvantage but the WP is not the cause.
Medivac drops can do way more damage and quickly switch between bases without comitting.
A warp in is almost always 100% comitted and most of the time means you lose it all.
Lets compare a standard WP attack with a standard drop.
WP = Flys in with 4 zealots and unloads them. If they spot too much defense they get picked up again and most of the time savely escape unless you got 2 Vikings on spot. And if you don't got enough defense at your base you face a big warp in that sets you whole base on fire and destroys eco and production.
MV = Most of the time you scan ahead before you drop your boys to be safe. But even if you do the possibilty of a observer on your way to the base is always given. So already 1 mule less. So if you scan and its save your boost in and drop your most of the time 2 medivacs. So you stim and spread chaos while the toss warps units or recalls his units from anywhere.
What would you say if both players react as fast a possible will more damage be done?
You don't realize that gateway units are trash except for zealots. The only way for P to defend drops is to leave stalkers and if you dont micro them they will just die vs anything that is dropped. Any warp in at home to defend vs mmm will always trade unfavorably. Plus you have any number of 1 to 3 or more medivacs, which can hit many places at once. A smart player will split and keep the boost to run away. There is zero chance of catching a drop without blink.
The prism is a single one at most two, if you take down the prism, you have removed 100% of the threat. If you leave 4 stalkers in one base you can take out 1 medivac before it drops at one base, now you have to cover the other abses too or have blink and leave a bigger army at home.
Plus bio terran has medivacs anyway thus can reposition quickly to respond in any base and even hunt down the prism with medivacs. Protoss is fucked on any map that allows switching drops between bases separated by cliffs. Only option is blink and keep units at home.
Because of course the next point is this: any uncaught medivac drop will with high probability kill a nexus, because of the DPS. But a toss warp in can never kill a CC unless the terran is shit. Usually terran loses scvs and some depots then cleans up all the zealots.
Protoss warp ins are only good if paired with attacks in other places, otherwise they do little. Terran drops do almost game ending damage within 6 sec of not being attacked.
Not to mention retarded early game widow mine drops where 2 secs inattention means GG due to 12 workers lost.
TERRANS WHINING ABOUT WARPPRISM IS THE MOST HYPOCRITICAL STUPID THING EVER. Thats how we can identify the true whiners. everything the warpprism does, medivac drops do faster, cheaper in mutiple places and while being used for healing at the same time.
I think that if there is a problem with pvt then it's due to the fact that protoss can put on more pressure directly after the game starts and that scales into mid and late game. For this the stim change is probably a reasonable approach.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
On July 04 2019 20:38 Freeborn wrote: You don't realize that gateway units are trash except for zealots.
I stopped reading right here. imagine actually believing that stalkers, sentries, HTs and DTs are trash vs. terran... just wow
He said that with context (medivac drop) in mind. But I guess you're too smart to actually read posts.
I understand the context because I read the post he was replying. it's an outrageous claim in the context of defending medivac drops
HT trade very favorably. feedback the dropship, storm the bio, soak damage with your archon merge while you warp in 20 zealots
DT trade very favorably when T is low on orbital energy. they are the best drop-defense in base-trade scenarios, when all of T's orbitals are floating in the air
blink stalkers are an excellent deterrent and great for catching retreating medivacs as they boost out. they can fight straight-up when they have zealots buffering for them. "if you dont micro them (stalkers) they will just die vs anything that is dropped" does this guy not research blink?
so really, P has 4 gateway units that are great vs. drops
Lol, I didn't know better I would think Serral lurks TL forums and were poking fun at certain "x race were in y finals therefore x race is OP" posters xD
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
They are also far more likely to give bad biased inputs. Making all the information gathered unreliable and more confusing than helpful. If I was making what the Top Pro's are making in SC2 I'd find it hard not to be biased towards my own race.
SC2 is not rocket science, it is pure math combined with the human factor of capability.
Pro's give us all the feedback we need when they play games in the most prestigious tournaments (high cash prizes) or when monitoring high MMR ladder games ( which I hope Blizzard are actively doing).
The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game. This means making changes to the game that are based on game design and not balance. (at certain points balance and fun gameplay can walk hand in hand but these are things Blizzard should be able to handle by themselves)
Meaning good game design comes before balance, create a good game design then balance accordingly. From what I see Blizzard is balancing really horrible game design and it will never be good until they realize the game has some serious game design flaws and change the game drastically.
What I don't understand is why they don't make a Private server where they test out drastic changes to game design and see how it plays, so many people would play it and they could test things without having to interfere with the current balance. Just have the server running 24/7 it would be a huge resource for them.
Stim buff seems very overwhelming, and will allow openers that may simply remove some strategies from the early game (mech in TvT, or some zerg builds especially). Carrier buff seems odd too since the unit is already very strong. Nerfing the prism warp instead of the pickup range is incomprehensible too. The rest seems fine.
Carrier buff seems odd too since the unit is already very strong.
I don't get this statement at all. Why do you think that? Consensus is generally that they were overnerfed out of viability a while back and they'll still be a lot weaker than they used to be after the buff.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
They are also far more likely to give bad biased inputs. Making all the information gathered unreliable and more confusing than helpful. If I was making what the Top Pro's are making in SC2 I'd find it hard not to be biased towards my own race.
SC2 is not rocket science, it is pure math combined with the human factor of capability.
Pro's give us all the feedback we need when they play games in the most prestigious tournaments (high cash prizes) or when monitoring high MMR ladder games ( which I hope Blizzard are actively doing).
The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game. This means making changes to the game that are based on game design and not balance. (at certain points balance and fun gameplay can walk hand in hand but these are things Blizzard should be able to handle by themselves)
Meaning good game design comes before balance, create a good game design then balance accordingly. From what I see Blizzard is balancing really horrible game design and it will never be good until they realize the game has some serious game design flaws and change the game drastically.
What I don't understand is why they don't make a Private server where they test out drastic changes to game design and see how it plays, so many people would play it and they could test things without having to interfere with the current balance. Just have the server running 24/7 it would be a huge resource for them.
Hahaha I don't know if you did it on purpose but that was hilarious.
You got it the other way around dude, rocket science isn't starcraft. Rocket science is just math(physics math), it is much simplier than starcraft. To figure out how a given balance change will effect the the different matches, the different phases of a game and the actual meta is much more complex than rocket science which is just math =P
How to shoot a rocket into orbit isn't as hard as figuring out starcraft patches and how it will influence meta.
Letting pros decide balance is obviously a bad idea but asking them for feedback is a really good idea, for any small team of balance designers it is really hard to just come up with the perfect solutions themselves. Taking inspiration and asking for feedback from the community and pros is actually the best way to go, one person has to be a true genius to be able to figure out starcraft balance on their own. Pro feedback and suggestions is a great way to start discussions in a a balance team. Of course they cant just say "if X played thinks we should do Y ofc we should", they have to analyze the reasoning behind what the pro says and think independently about how the suggestion would work in practise.
For me it sounds baffling to think the balance team should decide on balance in a vacum and not listen to community and pros. However listening to does not equal "do as they say".
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
They are also far more likely to give bad biased inputs. Making all the information gathered unreliable and more confusing than helpful. If I was making what the Top Pro's are making in SC2 I'd find it hard not to be biased towards my own race.
SC2 is not rocket science, it is pure math combined with the human factor of capability.
Pro's give us all the feedback we need when they play games in the most prestigious tournaments (high cash prizes) or when monitoring high MMR ladder games ( which I hope Blizzard are actively doing).
The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game. This means making changes to the game that are based on game design and not balance. (at certain points balance and fun gameplay can walk hand in hand but these are things Blizzard should be able to handle by themselves)
Meaning good game design comes before balance, create a good game design then balance accordingly. From what I see Blizzard is balancing really horrible game design and it will never be good until they realize the game has some serious game design flaws and change the game drastically.
What I don't understand is why they don't make a Private server where they test out drastic changes to game design and see how it plays, so many people would play it and they could test things without having to interfere with the current balance. Just have the server running 24/7 it would be a huge resource for them.
Hahaha I don't know if you did it on purpose but that was hilarious.
You got it the other way around dude, rocket science isn't starcraft. Rocket science is just math(physics math), it is much simplier than starcraft. To figure out how a given balance change will effect the the different matches, the different phases of a game and the actual meta is much more complex than rocket science which is just math =P
How to shoot a rocket into orbit isn't as hard as figuring out starcraft patches and how it will influence meta.
Letting pros decide balance is obviously a bad idea but asking them for feedback is a really good idea, for any small team of balance designers it is really hard to just come up with the perfect solutions themselves. Taking inspiration and asking for feedback from the community and pros is actually the best way to go, one person has to be a true genius to be able to figure out starcraft balance on their own. Pro feedback and suggestions is a great way to start discussions in a a balance team. Of course they cant just say "if X played thinks we should do Y ofc we should", they have to analyze the reasoning behind what the pro says and think independently about how the suggestion would work in practise.
For me it sounds baffling to think the balance team should decide on balance in a vacum and not listen to community and pros. However listening to does not equal "do as they say".
It's a figure of speech, in case the point I was trying to make was too hard on you.
And if you're gonna just skim through what I write and reply then why reply at all really?
Obviously in deep need of "winning a discussion".
It's not hard for a balance team to make good decisions if they watch all the high-end SC2 content and play at a very high level themselves.
Many of the things you point out a balance team should do I said they should do to some extent so you clearly are not reading what I write you just want an argument.
This isn't a competition, it's about sharing different points of views without having to start conversing like a child in need of approval.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
They are also far more likely to give bad biased inputs. Making all the information gathered unreliable and more confusing than helpful. If I was making what the Top Pro's are making in SC2 I'd find it hard not to be biased towards my own race.
SC2 is not rocket science, it is pure math combined with the human factor of capability.
Pro's give us all the feedback we need when they play games in the most prestigious tournaments (high cash prizes) or when monitoring high MMR ladder games ( which I hope Blizzard are actively doing).
The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game. This means making changes to the game that are based on game design and not balance. (at certain points balance and fun gameplay can walk hand in hand but these are things Blizzard should be able to handle by themselves)
Meaning good game design comes before balance, create a good game design then balance accordingly. From what I see Blizzard is balancing really horrible game design and it will never be good until they realize the game has some serious game design flaws and change the game drastically.
What I don't understand is why they don't make a Private server where they test out drastic changes to game design and see how it plays, so many people would play it and they could test things without having to interfere with the current balance. Just have the server running 24/7 it would be a huge resource for them.
Hahaha I don't know if you did it on purpose but that was hilarious.
You got it the other way around dude, rocket science isn't starcraft. Rocket science is just math(physics math), it is much simplier than starcraft. To figure out how a given balance change will effect the the different matches, the different phases of a game and the actual meta is much more complex than rocket science which is just math =P
How to shoot a rocket into orbit isn't as hard as figuring out starcraft patches and how it will influence meta.
Letting pros decide balance is obviously a bad idea but asking them for feedback is a really good idea, for any small team of balance designers it is really hard to just come up with the perfect solutions themselves. Taking inspiration and asking for feedback from the community and pros is actually the best way to go, one person has to be a true genius to be able to figure out starcraft balance on their own. Pro feedback and suggestions is a great way to start discussions in a a balance team. Of course they cant just say "if X played thinks we should do Y ofc we should", they have to analyze the reasoning behind what the pro says and think independently about how the suggestion would work in practise.
For me it sounds baffling to think the balance team should decide on balance in a vacum and not listen to community and pros. However listening to does not equal "do as they say".
It's a figure of speech, in case the point I was trying to make was too hard on you.
And if you're gonna just skim through what I write and reply then why reply at all really?
Obviously in deep need of "winning a discussion".
It's not hard for a balance team to make good decisions if they watch all the high-end SC2 content and play at a very high level themselves.
Many of the things you point out a balance team should do I said they should do to some extent so you clearly are not reading what I write you just want an argument.
This isn't a competition, it's about sharing different points of views without having to start conversing like a child in need of approval.
Why are you so hung up on who is wrong and who is right? Get over it.
No you wrote the opposite of what I wrote, I was saying that the balance team should take info from pros and community and you wrote: "The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game"
The opposite of my opinion, how you believe that we think the same thing is beyond me.
On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote: As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
They are also far more likely to give bad biased inputs. Making all the information gathered unreliable and more confusing than helpful. If I was making what the Top Pro's are making in SC2 I'd find it hard not to be biased towards my own race.
SC2 is not rocket science, it is pure math combined with the human factor of capability.
Pro's give us all the feedback we need when they play games in the most prestigious tournaments (high cash prizes) or when monitoring high MMR ladder games ( which I hope Blizzard are actively doing).
The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game. This means making changes to the game that are based on game design and not balance. (at certain points balance and fun gameplay can walk hand in hand but these are things Blizzard should be able to handle by themselves)
Meaning good game design comes before balance, create a good game design then balance accordingly. From what I see Blizzard is balancing really horrible game design and it will never be good until they realize the game has some serious game design flaws and change the game drastically.
What I don't understand is why they don't make a Private server where they test out drastic changes to game design and see how it plays, so many people would play it and they could test things without having to interfere with the current balance. Just have the server running 24/7 it would be a huge resource for them.
Hahaha I don't know if you did it on purpose but that was hilarious.
You got it the other way around dude, rocket science isn't starcraft. Rocket science is just math(physics math), it is much simplier than starcraft. To figure out how a given balance change will effect the the different matches, the different phases of a game and the actual meta is much more complex than rocket science which is just math =P
How to shoot a rocket into orbit isn't as hard as figuring out starcraft patches and how it will influence meta.
Letting pros decide balance is obviously a bad idea but asking them for feedback is a really good idea, for any small team of balance designers it is really hard to just come up with the perfect solutions themselves. Taking inspiration and asking for feedback from the community and pros is actually the best way to go, one person has to be a true genius to be able to figure out starcraft balance on their own. Pro feedback and suggestions is a great way to start discussions in a a balance team. Of course they cant just say "if X played thinks we should do Y ofc we should", they have to analyze the reasoning behind what the pro says and think independently about how the suggestion would work in practise.
For me it sounds baffling to think the balance team should decide on balance in a vacum and not listen to community and pros. However listening to does not equal "do as they say".
It's a figure of speech, in case the point I was trying to make was too hard on you.
And if you're gonna just skim through what I write and reply then why reply at all really?
Obviously in deep need of "winning a discussion".
It's not hard for a balance team to make good decisions if they watch all the high-end SC2 content and play at a very high level themselves.
Many of the things you point out a balance team should do I said they should do to some extent so you clearly are not reading what I write you just want an argument.
This isn't a competition, it's about sharing different points of views without having to start conversing like a child in need of approval.
Why are you so hung up on who is wrong and who is right? Get over it.
No you wrote the opposite of what I wrote, I was saying that the balance team should take info from pros and community and you wrote: "The only input Blizzard should take from community and pros is how much fun they have playing or watching the game and try to decide what is the healthiest for the game"
The opposite of my opinion, how you believe that we think the same thing is beyond me.
I'm telling you I feel they should ask community and pro's questions about how they enjoy each matchup etc, the only thing we disagree on is if it's of any real help to ask pro's very balance specific questions.
Carrier buff seems odd too since the unit is already very strong.
I don't get this statement at all. Why do you think that? Consensus is generally that they were overnerfed out of viability a while back and they'll still be a lot weaker than they used to be after the buff.
I don't know i didnt' follow the scene closely these last few months be last i did i thought they were extraordinarily tanky and that they're really fast to build. Truthfully they change units so often now it's hard to keep up but it's like 8 dmg per interceptor, 100 more HP and faster to build isn't it?
Carrier buff seems odd too since the unit is already very strong.
I don't get this statement at all. Why do you think that? Consensus is generally that they were overnerfed out of viability a while back and they'll still be a lot weaker than they used to be after the buff.
I don't know i didnt' follow the scene closely these last few months be last i did i thought they were extraordinarily tanky and that they're really fast to build. Truthfully they change units so often now it's hard to keep up but it's like 8 dmg per interceptor, 100 more HP and faster to build isn't it?
they need 3/3 upgrade and the absence of BCs to dominate both bio and mech but they are still shit in PvZ
Carrier buff seems odd too since the unit is already very strong.
I don't get this statement at all. Why do you think that? Consensus is generally that they were overnerfed out of viability a while back and they'll still be a lot weaker than they used to be after the buff.
I don't know i didnt' follow the scene closely these last few months be last i did i thought they were extraordinarily tanky and that they're really fast to build. Truthfully they change units so often now it's hard to keep up but it's like 8 dmg per interceptor, 100 more HP and faster to build isn't it?
Carriers were never extraordinarily tanky. that description applies to the BC, not the carrier
Carriers lost the graviton catapult upgrade and interceptor build time increased.. Thors got buffed against massive units. Mines got drilling claws. Feedback got nerfed (relevant in PvZ where infestors arent heavily threatened by high templars now)
Carrier got nerfed hard compared to the version you remember
Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. 2012 Battle.net World Championship
Ok, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help...
I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering!
On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote: Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2012_Battle.net_World_Championship
Three protoss in top three is an evident example for undefeatability of infestor balls.
On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote: Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. 2012 Battle.net World Championship
Ok, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help...
I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering!
Not to mention the most worst balance there has ever been in Sc2 was in favor of Terran during the GomTvT era, but the master race was dominating and the players benefitting were legendary and popular so that I don't see many despise that era, despite it was way more lopsided than BL Infestor madness.
On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote: Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. 2012 Battle.net World Championship
Ok, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help...
I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering!
Not to mention the most worst balance there has ever been in Sc2 was in favor of Terran during the GomTvT era, but the master race was dominating and the players benefitting were legendary and popular so that I don't see many despise that era, despite it was way more lopsided than BL Infestor madness.
The fact is that GomTvT didn't diminish the game's popularity, quite the contrary, while bl/infestor was such a snoozefest for so long that it killed the game, the balance team from that time should be sued, they cost a lot of people a lot of money.
On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote: Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2012_Battle.net_World_Championship
Three protoss in top three is an evident example for undefeatability of infestor balls.
The difference is, back then Protoss could hard-counter infestors with feedback. That's not the case anymore due to the feedback nerf. Because of this, it is now much less risky for Zerg to try and poke out their infestors and cast a fungal or neural since they know at worst, they might lose some infestor energy but few if any, actual units, and if they land a good fungal they are likely to at the very least kill multiple expensive Protoss air units. Combine that with using spores, broodlords, and queens to zone, and it's suddenly much more difficult for Protoss to ever attack a Zerg who has managed to get the infestor/broodlord/corruptor/viper ball with mass static defence up. At best now, Protoss can slowly chip away at this composition with tempests, and that's about it.
On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote: Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. 2012 Battle.net World Championship
Ok, it is not a given that SC2 would have beaten out the MOBAs anyway, but wasting the viewer's time in crucial months as well as killing the KESPA entry hype because of awful balance and game design certainly did not help...
I hope the infested terran nerf helps end my suffering!
Not to mention the most worst balance there has ever been in Sc2 was in favor of Terran during the GomTvT era, but the master race was dominating and the players benefitting were legendary and popular so that I don't see many despise that era, despite it was way more lopsided than BL Infestor madness.
The thing is the GomTvT era came really early in the game when nobody knew anything really, the it was also not due to a single factor, the TvT era saw a big ammount of changes and patches before it went away.
There was no single thing to put the blame on, nothing could point out the problem.
Blink stalker era and BL/Infestor era had clear culprits on the other hand, with makes the perseption of imbalance much more clear.
On July 02 2019 08:23 KarlSiegt wrote: Protoss Players should boicott this horrible game.
these changes are all experimental... i think the changes are worthy of exploration on an experimental basis.
as far as SC2 being horrible ...i dunno man.. i'm just happy Blizzard has found a way to monetize a game in the RTS genre so that it can get 9+ years of ongoing support. All my other favourite RTS games have been put out to pasture long ago. Co-op mode is a really cool addition to the game. They took Red Alert 3s co-op mode and made it way better. They experimented with a single player campaign pack that added a new story. That was cool.
i've been playing this game off and on since March of 2010 and its been fun. $140 well spent.
On July 06 2019 04:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i've been playing this game off and on since March of 2010 and its been fun. $140 well spent.
Same here. Playing on and off since the beta, but I've always felt the game peaked somewhere in WoL (in terms of enjoyability). That said I still think blizzard has been doing a good job keeping it fresh since then and we're lucky to keep getting these community updates. Have a look at some other RTS released since 2010:
Supreme Commander 2
Command & Conquer 4
Settlers 7
Company of Heroes 2
Grey Goo
Surely not exhaustive, but do any of these games keep getting updates or any semblance of community interaction?
Aside for Age of Empires 2 i can only really think of Blizzard being the ones putting out flagcarrying rts games. People whine "guess all protoss can quit the game" "guess the same about terran next patch" etc. kind of lame when I wish that Total Annihilation was still alive and that I could enjoy an existing community for Supreme Commander and still have 'community updates' coming out, with plenty of pro games to watch.
On July 05 2019 18:35 Slydie wrote: Those near undefeatable infestor balls bring back very bad memories from WoL, when SC2 had the potential to be much bigger than it ended up being. In the most important tournament of the year (1st WCS) only 4 of 32 in the finals were terrans and none of them made the top 8. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2012_Battle.net_World_Championship
Three protoss in top three is an evident example for undefeatability of infestor balls.
For TvZ it was true, if the skill levels were remotely comparable. The 3 Protos got top 3 by using super perfected 2-base immortal/sentry all-ins vs Zerg, not beating finished infestor balls with or without feedback.
I think that the stim change is good. Right now the entire TvP meta is shaped around the blink stalker opening and gateway allins. In a lot of ways Terran is restricted like toss used to be by widow mines. Widow mines were so strong toss has to get detection and therefore evrey toss build had to have detection at the widowmine drop timing. Similarly for Terran Protoss gateway attacks are so strong that Terran must have 2 siege tanks to fend them off. This requirement to have 2 siege tanks basically forces Terran to go for the 2 base timing push evrey game. If terran’s had a less expensive way to defend these attacks we might see more three base macro with harassment out of them like we used to and less 2 base tank allins. Right now the only way a high level tvp gets to late game is if the Terran Allin does an intermediate but not game ending amount of damage. It makes the meta extremely one dimensional. Occasionally we see mech plays but mech openers are curtailed by the same problems bio openers have and they the tend to outright die to a comited 2 base blink timing.
I Think that giving Terran 20 more seconds to have stim up is a huge deal for the mu since it lets terran’s deffend vs blink stalkers with 3 rax openings. Often the problem is that the blink stalkers reach your base and blink into your main before you have stim, bio without stim is awful against properly controled blink stalkers.
Like Pvt in PvZ nerfing the warprism will make games less one dimensional which is good I’m sick of the immortal Allin meta and it’s an obviously overpowered build that distorts the entire meta around its existence. The problem is that toss has no other clear game plan vs Zerg and Zerg is very strong vs Protoss both early and late, with the Allin nerf I’m not sure what Protoss does any more. I’m worried it will be like mine nerf back in hots where terran’s whole game plan revolves around one overpowered thing, so when that thing was taken away the race had no clear path to victory any more.
Protoss is in a weird spot to ballance In Terms of late game because their late game is so bad vs Zerg yet so strong vs Terran. I think that to fix this problem long term bliz would need to make some major adjustments to Protoss as a whole or Terran so that tweeks to toss don’t seem reasonable in one matchup will making or break the race in the other. My farthest out idea is that I would like to see some anti Protoss specific buffs to mech vs Protoss ones that won’t impact tvz mech. If mech was the predominant way to play vs toss and it was viable through the game than protoss could be adjusted to have a better gameplay experience vs Zerg. It hard to adjust Zerg late game without making them underpowered vs Terran, which is the worst since than Terran will opt to turtle from the very outset of the game, like we saw with ravens.
To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
Surely not exhaustive, but do any of these games keep getting updates or any semblance of community interaction?
CoH2 has managed to keep going with a small but very very dedicated community. Relic has done a really nice job on a shoestring budget. https://www.coh2.org/
C&C4 died a quick, ugly death. Red Alert 3 kept on going for a few years after C&C4 was released , however, SC2 really put a giant dent in its active player population.
On July 08 2019 03:34 MarianoSC2 wrote: To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
That depends if the allins are broken or not. How can you know. For standard builds in tvz this won’t be that big of a deal. Am I going to push you with my 2-1-1 before medivac are out? Am I going to push before I have 2 tanks with my poke? It will be a buff to Terran in more chaotic/ Allin games especially when they have sucsesfully defended an Allin. But I don’t think it would affect things to much. Maybe there will be a new 3 rax or 5 rax Allin to prepare for but I’m sure zerg has the tools to hold it. And would it be a bad thing if Terran had a barracks centric open agian in the match up.ever since 2-1-1 was nerfed the standard has been hellion+starports tech evrey game.
Surely not exhaustive, but do any of these games keep getting updates or any semblance of community interaction?
CoH2 has managed to keep going with a small but very very dedicated community. Relic has done a really nice job on a shoestring budget. https://www.coh2.org/
C&C4 died a quick, ugly death. Red Alert 3 kept on going for a few years after C&C4 was released , however, SC2 really put a giant dent in its active player population.
The death of gamespy was the biggest hit RA3 took. I miss RA3.
On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote: Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
On July 08 2019 03:34 MarianoSC2 wrote: To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
what early tvz allins would those even be? hellbat stim? i really don't see hellbat stim becoming broken but feel free to elaborate
personally i think the ghost buff will do way more than people think, ghosts have always been a critical unit in tvp but a lot of players reject them for being "too hard" to use, they were never a weak unit. it's going to become pretty hard to avoid blanket EMPs for people who aren't pros. you can argue that's only fair with storm splitting for terran, but we'll have to see the effect
On July 08 2019 03:34 MarianoSC2 wrote: To be honest I dont really like these changes. Stim buff will help TvP, but wont it break TvZ in the Terrans favor? Early TvZ allins could be very strong.
Also I am not sure the prism nerf is viable for balancing PvZ. The biggest problem is the pickup range, and the strength of immortal sentry...
Thumbs up at least for the recall nerf, that was much needed and is a big step forwards.
what early tvz allins would those even be? hellbat stim? i really don't see hellbat stim becoming broken but feel free to elaborate
Back at the start of lotv when reaper grenade was good I used to do a reactored reaper into 5 rax with stim + 1 and combat sheilds I could see this kind of build getting a light buff but even than I’m prity sure zerg hold this kind of stuff just fine zerg sometimes struggle vs terran’s abuse of mobility or air units but it’s been a very long time where Terran just smash your face in and it’s a strong build the closest thing we have right now are hell at allins and these are strong and in the meta but they can be and are countered.
On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote: Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
We’ll have to see.
My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote: Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
We’ll have to see.
My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
Can you specify which benchmarks? Instinct is no basis to make an argument against this patch.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
Changing things and opening up new trends sounds like a great rationale for liking the pre-patch combo.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
It is possible to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor.
If Stim change is too strong, stim timings will dumpster Protoss. If Ghost change is too strong, lategame Terran will dumpster Protoss.
I agree that WP will affect PvZ negatively, perhaps too severely since Zergs need the threat of strong offensive timings from opponents to keep them from going full greed. And this will be easy to see as Zergs don't respect Protoss early game and dominate them with dumpster Protoss with un-earned econ leads.
The effect of carrier buff will also be possible to ascertain. Increased rate of interceptor production = increased rate of trading Protoss minerals vs opponent gas units (especially with focus fire).
Instead, I propose a nerf to widowmine friendlyfire. It is too random; can hit amazing shots, or dud shots, or terrible friendlyfire. It is punishing enough if mines do not land good hits since they are now visible after shots.
On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote: Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
We’ll have to see.
My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
Can you specify which benchmarks? Instinct is no basis to make an argument against this patch.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
Changing things and opening up new trends sounds like a great rationale for liking the pre-patch combo.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
It is possible to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor.
If Stim change is too strong, stim timings will dumpster Protoss. If Ghost change is too strong, lategame Terran will dumpster Protoss.
I agree that WP will affect PvZ negatively, perhaps too severely since Zergs need the threat of strong offensive timings from opponents to keep them from going full greed. And this will be easy to see as Zergs don't respect Protoss early game and dominate them with dumpster Protoss with un-earned econ leads.
The effect of carrier buff will also be possible to ascertain. Increased rate of interceptor production = increased rate of trading Protoss minerals vs opponent gas units (especially with focus fire).
Instead, I propose a nerf to widowmine friendlyfire. It is too random; can hit amazing shots, or dud shots, or terrible friendlyfire. It is punishing enough if mines do not land good hits since they are now visible after shots.
No widow mines shouldn't be buffed. They are already one of the most cost effective units in the game and one of the few units in the game that have such a disparity between the skill required to use it and the skill required to defend against it.
On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote: Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
We’ll have to see.
My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
Can you specify which benchmarks? Instinct is no basis to make an argument against this patch.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
Changing things and opening up new trends sounds like a great rationale for liking the pre-patch combo.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
It is possible to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor.
If Stim change is too strong, stim timings will dumpster Protoss. If Ghost change is too strong, lategame Terran will dumpster Protoss.
I agree that WP will affect PvZ negatively, perhaps too severely since Zergs need the threat of strong offensive timings from opponents to keep them from going full greed. And this will be easy to see as Zergs don't respect Protoss early game and dominate them with dumpster Protoss with un-earned econ leads.
The effect of carrier buff will also be possible to ascertain. Increased rate of interceptor production = increased rate of trading Protoss minerals vs opponent gas units (especially with focus fire).
Instead, I propose a nerf to widowmine friendlyfire. It is too random; can hit amazing shots, or dud shots, or terrible friendlyfire. It is punishing enough if mines do not land good hits since they are now visible after shots.
No widow mines shouldn't be buffed. They are already one of the most cost effective units in the game and one of the few units in the game that have such a disparity between the skill required to use it and the skill required to defend against it.
While I agree that the Widow Mine probably is in a really good spot again since receiving the latest buff I want to point out that there evolved nice interactions both on offense and defense, the only level where this 'disparity' you're talking of can be felt must be rather low.
Micro and quick reaction time severely diminish the randomness of encounters with a Widow Mine, it is most prevalent when there is no micro involved, at all (or in a really big engagement). As soon as the defender starts to either split and therefore isolate the unit targeted or intentionally try to bait a shot it's suddenly up to the aggressor to react by unborrowing to prevent the mine from wasting its charge, which makes for a quite interesting multi-layered 'mini-game', so to say.
On July 08 2019 07:41 StarscreamG1 wrote: Those 2 rax stim versus Zerg are going to be EVEN MORE nasty.
How, people keep saying this but I don’t get why. 2-1-1 is a build that is bottlenecked by when the medivac finishes not when stim finishes. The Terran always gets to the zerg base with stim done and the timing does not change at all because they are waiting on medivac not stim. Also 2-1-1 is currently a dead build since zerg have figured out the correct reaction and queen range was buffed.
If you push before medivacs it’s an Allin and a bad one at that since 30 zerg lings and 4 Queens will crush your face. Terran has many better allins than a build like this anyway.
Maybe we see some 3 rax timings but I’m not even sure those will work.
We’ll have to see.
My instinct is that most potent other timings are bottlenecked by other benchmarks.
Can you specify which benchmarks? Instinct is no basis to make an argument against this patch.
If there is a new potent timing it might be strong, but it’ll be scoutable as a pretty obvious deviation I imagine, such as hypothetical early 3 rax stim timings.
It does make stim less vulnerable to sniping in PvT but outside of a few occasions I don’t recall it happening all that often where a snipe wouldn’t have occurred anyway.
We might see a cumulative effect where weaker Warp Prism and the changed stim timing opens up certain trends. A combo of weaker P offence and stronger T offense might change things.
It’s for the above rationale I don’t like this pre-patch combo at all. I think looking at the WP is a good idea, but try it in isolation.
Changing things and opening up new trends sounds like a great rationale for liking the pre-patch combo.
If Protoss just get dumpstered on the test server by Terrans it will be difficult to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor, especially with the better ghosts too.
If I was a Terran I’d rather the WP tested in isolation, if the nerf is too much that can be figured out and tweaked. If it’s a combo of a weaker WP plus a stim buff plus a ghost buff, well I think that increases the chance of a ‘oh well, back to the drawing board situation.
Regardless of that I can’t see the prism change go through in its current state. It will neuter Protoss far too much in PvZ. The Carrier buff isn’t sufficient to make Stargate openers into ground army and Templar’s into sky toss good enough to compensate for the neutering of Robo tech.
It is possible to ascertain how much each change is playing a factor.
If Stim change is too strong, stim timings will dumpster Protoss. If Ghost change is too strong, lategame Terran will dumpster Protoss.
I agree that WP will affect PvZ negatively, perhaps too severely since Zergs need the threat of strong offensive timings from opponents to keep them from going full greed. And this will be easy to see as Zergs don't respect Protoss early game and dominate them with dumpster Protoss with un-earned econ leads.
The effect of carrier buff will also be possible to ascertain. Increased rate of interceptor production = increased rate of trading Protoss minerals vs opponent gas units (especially with focus fire).
Instead, I propose a nerf to widowmine friendlyfire. It is too random; can hit amazing shots, or dud shots, or terrible friendlyfire. It is punishing enough if mines do not land good hits since they are now visible after shots.
I just don’t know is the answer, I’m not going to make authoritative statements as to the impact of potential changes because multiple things are all happening.
Protoss early/midgame flexibility is really neutered, fine by me as I’ve said I think they’re too flexible with the prism, Terran are slightly safer blindly via the stim change, which may or may not open up new timing attacks (I mean it does by default, but I mean actual good ones), Terran are a bit stronger in late game with the ghost change by default. Protoss are a bit constrained in optimal tech path too, by the looks of it.
It’s quite a lot to introduce at once, if they do. I rewatched Trap vs Inno last GSL season again there, which I felt was a good even series. The changes would slow every warp in Trap made out on the map, unless he went Robo bay and the upgrade, which really adds up to a lot over the length of a game.
It might be alright for all I know, I’m skeptical. If Protoss can’t slow down the Terran powering stage as easily, reinforce on the map as easily, while Terran have other buffs, and if Protoss want the old prism they have to get a Robo den, seems certain things are likely to happen. Protoss has weaker harassment and get overwhelmed slowly in a macro game, or they go collosus down the constrained tech path and are weak to being hard countered with raven disable timings (as we saw Inno execute against Stats’ style last season).
It’s hard to ascertain the effect of changes even if it’s just one, and the prism change will be harder than most to do so, never mind adding other stuff than that.
PvZ I don’t think when Protoss sky toss and feedback got nerfed people predicted the Robo meta which was crafted without any balance tweaks at all, players figured out those builds and styles because they had to due to the late game nerfs Protoss got. So there’s plenty of scope for trends to appear that most of us haven’t seen as viable yet.
As amateur/noob protoss players will tell you... It gets very tiring when we have to learn new builds every balance patch because their race just keeps getting nerfed. I can give many examples where my strats just get nerfed out, adepts, carriers, oracles, tempests.
After reading these patch notes I hit Master 2 and stopped playing, I have no motivation to play when I know my archon drops are gonna arrive 10 seconds later, or my protoss allins just won't work at all in any matchup, and my lategame PvZ will still not match that of zergs.
I know pros will adjust because the protoss pros always figure some new things out and get something else nerfed, but it's not worth my time.
What am I gonna do, learn the disruptor drop build which includes prism speed? learn another build for PvZ somehow kills in the midgame? nah, I'm gonna go play Fallout New Vegas because it's a better game. T_T
Protoss players victim complex has reached new levels of ridiculous. ''Oh no, my race is getting nerfed! I'm gonna quit the game!'' Terran had the most important early game TvP unit removed from the game last year, no one was threatening to quit the game. Zerg had 2 of its most important units nerfed alongside creep last year, was anyone threatening to quit the game? This patch is already a couple months late anyway, Blizzcon is at 5/8 Protoss players, and the average Protoss player representation at Katowice and korean tournaments this year has been more than Zerg and Terran combined. They should have pushed for a smaller patch before GSL 3 and see what happens. Now they're testing huge changes BEFORE the small changes that could be patched in with less testing? Makes zero sense.
The amount of people who didn't read the entire post is amazing
This time, we’ll be trying something new as we plan to release two sets of changes for testing. We believe both sets could result in positive improvements, but as they alter different aspects of the game, we’re interested in your feedback before we determine what the best options are. The first (and more experimental) set of test changes will be available today, and the second set of changes will be available for testing on the week of July 15th.
They are saying that they have another set of changes that is more "safe" prepared as well, and those changes will be tested too, so it will actually be a looong time before the patch makes it into the game, probably not before the GSL season ends.
On the side note, I like most of these changes, as they are going in the right direction, but we shall see if they will create better playing environment. Even Artosis and NoRegret agreed with almost every proposed change. I don't think the stim research time will create any new timings, as Terran usually doesn't really have many bio units when the stim actually finishes with the current builds, and with 21 second reduction (about 1 and a half produiction cycle) there will be even less bio out by the time stim finishes. We'll just have to wait and see.
has anyone here actually tested the changes? 15 pages on this thread and I haven't see anyone substantiate their opinion with replays or replay analysis. every time I queue the test server, it takes 5+ minutes to find a game, always a terran opponent and usually about 1k MMR lower than me. during the last big patch at the end of 2018, I spammed threads on reddit, TL and b.net forums in search of a testing partner and after all that effort, I eventually found an similar MMR zerg to play with. if Blizz were really serious about using test data for anything useful, they could lock the current-patch ladder for 1 day and call it SC2 TESTING DAY - give participants some cute portrait or skin for playing in the event?
On July 09 2019 06:32 Morbidius wrote: Protoss players victim complex has reached new levels of ridiculous. ''Oh no, my race is getting nerfed! I'm gonna quit the game!'' Terran had the most important early game TvP unit removed from the game last year, no one was threatening to quit the game. Zerg had 2 of its most important units nerfed alongside creep last year, was anyone threatening to quit the game? This patch is already a couple months late anyway, Blizzcon is at 5/8 Protoss players, and the average Protoss player representation at Katowice and korean tournaments this year has been more than Zerg and Terran combined. They should have pushed for a smaller patch before GSL 3 and see what happens. Now they're testing huge changes BEFORE the small changes that could be patched in with less testing? Makes zero sense.
You act like zerg doesn't just have the ability to do that same exact thing when they get "nerfs". Protoss builds are completely destroyed or made impossible when our units get nerfed or changed.
>Terran had the most important early game TvP unit removed from the game last year
On July 09 2019 06:32 Morbidius wrote: Protoss players victim complex has reached new levels of ridiculous. ''Oh no, my race is getting nerfed! I'm gonna quit the game!'' Terran had the most important early game TvP unit removed from the game last year, no one was threatening to quit the game. Zerg had 2 of its most important units nerfed alongside creep last year, was anyone threatening to quit the game? This patch is already a couple months late anyway, Blizzcon is at 5/8 Protoss players, and the average Protoss player representation at Katowice and korean tournaments this year has been more than Zerg and Terran combined. They should have pushed for a smaller patch before GSL 3 and see what happens. Now they're testing huge changes BEFORE the small changes that could be patched in with less testing? Makes zero sense.
You act like zerg doesn't just have the ability to do that same exact thing when they get "nerfs". Protoss builds are completely destroyed or made impossible when our units get nerfed or changed.
>Terran had the most important early game TvP unit removed from the game last year
what? no haha.
They're referring to the cyclone changes, technically it wasn't "removed," but it completely changed early game and the viable builds, and made the early game much more volatile.
Btw, why not just make prism deploy ability has a cooldown of lets say 60 seconds? While an upgrade would bring it down to 20 (or just remove the cd)? It would be harder to abuse the prism for all-ins early game, but archon drop and other types of pokes would not be touched.
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
In my eyes, the one thing that killed SC2 for me were buffs to aggressive cheese units.
Ever since Heart of the Swarm, Blizzard have been buffing dropships to absurd and frankly overpowered degrees with many of their buffs coming in Legacy of the Void. Stimivacs made any MMMM drop an instant game-endedr if one managed to land in your base. Cheap hatchery tech Ventral Sacs made the ZvX meta revolve heavily around the risk of being cheesed out by an ultra early ling/bane drop, and for Protoss the Warp Prism drop range was buffed to such absurd degrees that GSL Code S tier drop micro became something any mid league scrub could pull off safely.
And don’t even get me started on cheese units like Ravagers, Adepts, Liberators and Oracles which outright broke the game and made most existing openers outright unviable.
That’s why I’d rather have both the pick-up range of Warp Prisms and the speed at which they can flood waves of 8 Gladepts into your base nerfed. Because playing against this stilton was frustrating to the point where it made me quit Starcraft.
If you have to play a very specific opener to avoid being cheesed out by Oracle harassment or an 8 gate Gladept all-in, then that’s not a well designed game.
On July 02 2019 07:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, seems like Blizzard really perceive Warp Prism pick-up micro as currently implemented as a positive and 'fun' part of the game. As an esports fan, I'd rather the immortal-prism shuffle (the new "beautiful fungals!" or "only ByuN could do this!" of esports) have been nerfed, rather than nerfing the speed at which 8 glaive-adepts can warp in at 6 minutes. We'll see how it plays out :o
In my eyes, the one thing that killed SC2 for me were buffs to aggressive cheese units.
Ever since Heart of the Swarm, Blizzard have been buffing dropships to absurd and frankly overpowered degrees with many of their buffs coming in Legacy of the Void. Stimivacs made any MMMM drop an instant game-endedr if one managed to land in your base. Cheap hatchery tech Ventral Sacs made the ZvX meta revolve heavily around the risk of being cheesed out by an ultra early ling/bane drop, and for Protoss the Warp Prism drop range was buffed to such absurd degrees that GSL Code S tier drop micro became something any mid league scrub could pull off safely.
And don’t even get me started on cheese units like Ravagers, Adepts, Liberators and Oracles which outright broke the game and made most existing openers outright unviable.
That’s why I’d rather have both the pick-up range of Warp Prisms and the speed at which they can flood waves of 8 Gladepts into your base nerfed. Because playing against this stilton was frustrating to the point where it made me quit Starcraft.
If you have to play a very specific opener to avoid being cheesed out by Oracle harassment or an 8 gate Gladept all-in, then that’s not a well designed game.
It was something that caused me great frustration personally, although over time I do think through changes and general understanding of the game, it is largely in a good place.
It felt to me anyway that Blizzard didn’t know how to fundamentally tweak things to make races have the ability to go multi-pronged and harass with stock units effectively (especially Protoss), so just kept giving stronger and stronger tools in the form of specific harassment units that could just outright kill you.
I can handle my losses pretty well but there have been really stupid periods of just dying to x proxy build that are just immensely frustrating to play.
Frustrating because, really it’s so much easier to execute some silly proxy all-in than it is to scout it and react properly, I could probably teach my 6 year old to execute some of them and still win the odd game.
I do think the game is miraculously good actually considering how much wonky stuff is in it, and the worst of it has gradually been figured out or patched out.
As to a previous point Protoss have had an insanely OP prism for ages, but that compensates for how limited the race is in other ways. It feels like rather than tweak the race in a more fundamental way, the balance team propped up the race with an [i]insanely[\i] overpowered unit, to keep up with other really overpowered harassment options such as speedivacs and bio
Terrans do tend to enjoy their whining but there were periods their aggressive options were so strong that Blizzard gave Protoss the mothership core because they couldn’t figure out another way to balance the matchup. Thankfully they figured out that shield batteries were a much better solution in a strategy game than a ‘click to defend your base’
On July 10 2019 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote: Terrans do tend to enjoy their whining but there were periods their aggressive options were so strong that Blizzard gave Protoss the mothership core because they couldn’t figure out another way to balance the matchup. Thankfully they figured out that shield batteries were a much better solution in a strategy game than a ‘click to defend your base’
Actually, when Terran aggressive options were too strong, the builds got nerfed pretty soon (bunker build time, rax requires supply depot, supply depot build time, etc.). The mothership core was originally introduced in HotS to encourage Protoss to actually expand in PvP, where almost every game in late WoL ended up being 1 base 4 gate vs 4 gate. The MSC rightfully got removed, as a hero unit does not belong in a strategy game like StarCraft and because its defensive potential was too strong for the state of the game. Its replacements however, did produce some unintended results.
Thoughts from someone who is predominantly a viewer:
Stim: I'd rather something much more TvP focused rather than just a straight up all round buff. Seems very blunt.
EMP: A nothing change for me. Will obviously help, but isn't exciting at all. Also a weird change coupled with the Stim one. I agree with giving Terran a slight buff in TvP, but why buff mid game and late game together? Seems to me like late game is where Terran struggles so I'd rather just see something to help there.
Infested Terrans: Anything that weakens the horrendous practice of mass Infestor in the late game is good. Mass Infestor with some Brood Lords, Vipers and mass spore is not appealing at all. Free units do not make a Swarm (another 1 supply unit would help though ).
Carrier: Good change. I get they were too strong, but doesn't mean they aren't too weak now. They could use something and this is a nice 'slowly slowly' approach to giving them some power back.
Recall: Good. I hate recall on the Nexus. Anything that reduces gimmicks in a race full of them is good in my book.
Prism: Don't like this change. Warping in units isn't a problem in my book - the pick up micro is. It's not exciting to watch AT ALL. The point of the unit is to warp things in, so let it do that properly. I like the idea of not letting it pick up/drop off when in phase mode as a first step, but I'd much rather they removed pick up range completely and buffed the race appropriately if required.
Overall, I'm so sick of all the gimmicks Protoss is built around. They kill the watchability of the race so much...
I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
The problem has to do with the design of the game, the wp is a gimick because without it the race would be to weak compared to Z and T.
Protoss units and options early/mid game are so weak that for them to be able to fight on equal footing they need a unit that enhances its units costefficiency many times over.
Its basically a cheap unit that is pretty fast and easy to get that disables the opponents defenders advantage and gives all the protoss units blink without cooldown. If that unit is needed to balance the race does that sound healthy for the game?
WP pickup range gives endless none cd blink where it can stay far away from any AA while zoning with immortals/stalkers and keep getting insane value.
It is a gimmick because it is a cheap easy unit that gives value to the protoss army many times it cost. Its basically the power of a mothership at the cost of four marines, if that is needed to balance the game then it is a gimmick.
Edit: Just to be clear, I think the micro is too easy as it is today, it is so easy that its not very fun to watch. It rarely a "wow" thing nowadays, instead it is expected and basic to do. It doesn't really "enhance possible micro" like you say it only simplifies micro that were already possible before this crazy pickup range was introduced.
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
think of the other side too. Before, you could get key surrounds and focus snipes on units far away from the prism. Now as z you just get forced to let the unit go and you end up retreating instead because the prism has coverage out of this world.
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
It lowers the floor of pick up micro though and makes those moments less impressive. Even though most pros nowadays can split marines vs Banelings well, it is still great to see it well done because it is hard to do. Warp Prism pick up micro misses those high points - especially when it is most often paired with Immortals, a unit already designed to be a straight up beast on the ground.
Gimmicks can be good when they aren't so prevalent and they feel good to see and play against (despite the inherent unfairness a gimmick brings). A permanently cloaked unit that one shots workers (and can blink!) has gimmick written all over it, but it promotes action on both sides, has very clear responses and preventative measures, is risky and most importantly isn't the core strategy of the race.
Drops don't feel gimmicky to me because every race can do them and every race can stop them. Doesn't mean it is easy, but at least it feels fair. For the record, I hate Medivac boost too.
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
ofc you think its very fun to play. its disgustingly easy to use and strong.
if you're on the receiving end it will induce rage beyond belief since there is no real counter play.
On July 09 2019 09:15 SHODAN wrote: has anyone here actually tested the changes? 15 pages on this thread and I haven't see anyone substantiate their opinion with replays or replay analysis. every time I queue the test server, it takes 5+ minutes to find a game, always a terran opponent and usually about 1k MMR lower than me. during the last big patch at the end of 2018, I spammed threads on reddit, TL and b.net forums in search of a testing partner and after all that effort, I eventually found an similar MMR zerg to play with. if Blizz were really serious about using test data for anything useful, they could lock the current-patch ladder for 1 day and call it SC2 TESTING DAY - give participants some cute portrait or skin for playing in the event?
I've played about 2 dozen games. Nothing has changed from my first thought which was they might as well have said "Protoss removed from the game"
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
ofc you think its very fun to play. its disgustingly easy to use and strong.
if you're on the receiving end it will induce rage beyond belief since there is no real counter play.
It perhaps is a bit easy, I’d be in favour of the range being nerfed. Will raise the floor a bit to fancy prism micro.
On the other hand it’s not the only interaction without real counter play. What is the Protoss counterplay to certain bio micro? Specifically good kiting.
I feel a greater balance should have been struck between Terran having incredibly micro potential but being hard, and Protoss lacking it but being easier.
They’ve kind of kept that largely intact and given Protoss more and more gimmicks to stay competitive.
Why not experiment with Zealots getting a passive speed increase rather than charge for example?
Just one idea, but it would open up flanking potential that isn’t there. They would also move faster than the rest of the death ball and would have to be repositioned or your army splits up, so a higher skill floor too. Zealots that are faster all the time also make splitting them and sending them to harass would be more effective, so you’re not as reliant on prisms and pylons.
As a Protoss player I hate charge, you can’t control it very well and it makes engaging into mines or tank lines a lottery, it makes your zealots charge away from mineral lines (ok you can disable auto cast so that’s my bad)
It guarantees an auto-hit as well which I don’t like from a more general position, no matter how good your opponent kites or splits you get a lot of unearned hits.
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
ofc you think its very fun to play. its disgustingly easy to use and strong.
if you're on the receiving end it will induce rage beyond belief since there is no real counter play.
It perhaps is a bit easy, I’d be in favour of the range being nerfed. Will raise the floor a bit to fancy prism micro.
On the other hand it’s not the only interaction without real counter play. What is the Protoss counterplay to certain bio micro? Specifically good kiting.
I feel a greater balance should have been struck between Terran having incredibly micro potential but being hard, and Protoss lacking it but being easier.
They’ve kind of kept that largely intact and given Protoss more and more gimmicks to stay competitive.
Why not experiment with Zealots getting a passive speed increase rather than charge for example?
Just one idea, but it would open up flanking potential that isn’t there. They would also move faster than the rest of the death ball and would have to be repositioned or your army splits up, so a higher skill floor too. Zealots that are faster all the time also make splitting them and sending them to harass would be more effective, so you’re not as reliant on prisms and pylons.
As a Protoss player I hate charge, you can’t control it very well and it makes engaging into mines or tank lines a lottery, it makes your zealots charge away from mineral lines (ok you can disable auto cast so that’s my bad)
It guarantees an auto-hit as well which I don’t like from a more general position, no matter how good your opponent kites or splits you get a lot of unearned hits.
Charge already gives you a passive speed increase though.
They’re not fast though. Not really dangerously so anyway.
Speedlings as a unit have no gimmicky abilities or anything but there’s a hell of a lot you can do with them in micro terms because they’re extremely fast. Still Life’s lings > everyone else’s because he got so much done with them.
Nobody ever says ‘insert Protoss pro’s chargelots’ because they’re really quite limited by how they operate.
It’s just spitballing ideas really. As a Protoss player I’m frustrated by how limited certain units are to use, when I play T it’s by how easy certain comps are to use.
On July 10 2019 19:43 Kenny_mk1 wrote: I disagree so strongly with hate on range pick up. It enhance possible micro so its good. Dont get again the trend of 'i dont like this so its gimmick'. It seems mandatory in pvz and is very fun to play. Do you think people destroying expo and tech with drops in a few seconds cant feel gimmicky? Just stating my opinion because i see a lot of hate on it
It lowers the floor of pick up micro though and makes those moments less impressive. Even though most pros nowadays can split marines vs Banelings well, it is still great to see it well done because it is hard to do. Warp Prism pick up micro misses those high points - especially when it is most often paired with Immortals, a unit already designed to be a straight up beast on the ground.
Gimmicks can be good when they aren't so prevalent and they feel good to see and play against (despite the inherent unfairness a gimmick brings). A permanently cloaked unit that one shots workers (and can blink!) has gimmick written all over it, but it promotes action on both sides, has very clear responses and preventative measures, is risky and most importantly isn't the core strategy of the race.
Drops don't feel gimmicky to me because every race can do them and every race can stop them. Doesn't mean it is easy, but at least it feels fair. For the record, I hate Medivac boost too.
(Sorry im on phone so i cant quote all)
Things is while i understand its hardly countered by z, it is not designed to be able to do insane damage like dt, or nothing if it fail. Depends if you are prelared or not you can more or less mitigate damage. Thats not the case for dt, that i hate with passion. Also i remember playing drop in hots and it was hard to do damage and make the apm worthy, especially against T, unless you were in late game where spamming zealots at the other side was quite easy and strong. I fail to see how drop would continue to be a thing if they nerf significantly the range,especially in PvZ with queen range. Also impressive micro come mostly from all in prism micro, finding the tight spot for pick up is cool and all, but im worried it will mostly result in less drops because it will end up not worthy.
On July 10 2019 17:39 JazzVortical wrote: Overall, I'm so sick of all the gimmicks Protoss is built around. They kill the watchability of the race so much...
I find the gimmicks make Protoss not fun to play either, especially now that a lot of the gimmicks have been mostly figured out. All that's left is coin-flipping with the gimmicky units like oracles, doing all-ins, or playing super defensive. There's no in-between. There are very few spread out, dynamic, back-and-forth protoss games because of this. Most games are done in 1-2 big fights where either protoss doesn't lose their tech units and wins, or protoss loses their tech units and loses.
It's the reason why them walking back the stalker buff quickly was frustrating rather than looking at alternative changes. That initial change was what brought me back to the game because it sounded like they were finally doing some changes that would make protoss more interesting to use. The problem I have with protoss is that it has all these fancy higher tech units that are situationally incredibly good. However, the meat and potatoes protoss units, the 4 early gateway units (zealot, stalker, sentry, adept) are all terrible outside of all-ins. All of them basically operate on a timer and don't scale well enough to be used past a certain point in the game.
Zealots before charge are more or less glorified meat shields or units you cheese with. That's about it. They have no real utility. A good terran playing bio will seldom take damage from them and all of the early zerg units are fast enough to just avoid them in the first place. Zealots with charge are great for all-ins, as meat shields that happen to guarantee one hit, and on occasion, as a unit that can be used for harass if the opponent isn't prepared for them. There's nothing interesting you can do with them outside of putting them at the front of your army, or on rare occasion, trying to flank with them. You can't really split them the way you can bio or zerg units because charge just undoes the split the second a unit is in range.
Stalkers are absolute garbage outside of all-ins. They cost a ton and their damage does not remotely scale enough to make them useful as an actual damage dealing unit. The stalker damage buff made it so they could do enough single-shot damage to be able to defend tricky all-ins with good micro (for example, they 3-shotted marines, which was great for proxies, and they handled early game zerg cheeses much better) or be useful for poking. But they nerfed the stalker damage buff because blink all-ins were too good, and then blink all-ins remained too good anyway so in the end the nerf didn't accomplish much. In PvZ stalkers basically don't exist outside of all-ins or as an "Oh shit" response to broodlords. In PvT they are required for early game harass/cheese defence but then they are only built if liberators or vikings are in use.
Sentries are useful until around 10 minutes or when higher tech comes out, and they basically never get built again. Adepts are similarly only useful for a short amount of time in the early-mid game, and only if there is any surprise. Of course, like stalkers, sentries, and zealots, adepts are good in context to all-ins, but outside of that context they are basically unused in the non-mirror matchups.
I would be all for nerfing some of the higher tier units, tech, and abilities in exchange for either lategame upgrades to make the gateway units usable, or buffs to the units themselves to make them better throughout the game. It'd be amazing to be able to do speed zealot flanks or have adepts that could move around the map and do some harass without being completely shutdown by a PF, a couple spines, or a small amount of marine/marauder. It'd be super cool to be able to take a small amount of stalkers and harass bases or snipe tech.
Everyone whines about the immortal being too strong and how they never die. The immortal is how it is because it has to compensate for how poor the above 4 units are. It's very similar to where zerg is at with the queen. Both immortals and queens function as bandaid fixes for deeper issues. Without the immortal in the current state, protoss would just die to bio timings every game. Likewise, protoss would never get a third in PvZ because you cannot reasonably hold a mass roach attacks with gateway units alone (or even gateway units mixed with stargate units. Don't get me started on the void ray). The immortal is the only ground unit protoss has that is good against marauders and roaches.
I would be all for them nerfing the bejesus out of a bunch of protoss all-ins if in exchange they give us units that are actually fun to use and are useful for more than the first 5-10 minutes of the game. But that's not gonna happen. Instead one of the few strong things protoss has left is getting nerfed with nothing to compensate outside of an extreme lategame unit buff. My concern is that PvZ is going to turn into a turtlefest and we're going to end up back at 2013/2014-levels of bad SC2, but this time with infestor/broodlord/mass static defence instead of mass swarmhosts (see sOs vs. Ragnarok game 3 set 1 from the recent GSL group series. Once enough infestors were out, sOs could never engage Ragnarok in a cost-effective way, and went from being up supply and bank to dead). The changes also do nothing to address the issue of PvT being mostly tank pushes, and if anything, these changes, if they go through in this form, could make the matchup even more volatile and bad.
I quit the game again a month ago and it's going to take drastic changes for me to come back. I tried playing it again a few times but I just don't enjoy it anymore and it's more frustrating to play than anything. The game was in a pretty fun place last year, proxy meta and all, but ever since the last big December patch, I've been having less and less fun. The matchups are becoming less dynamic, and it seems several of the matchups have turned into being mostly all-ins.
I think the gap that David Kim has left in the balance team is being felt pretty profoundly. This is literally a regressive list of changes.
Ghosts are already super strong units when you get them. And because lategame spellcasters and air armies are so sick, the game slows down SUPER hard at 20 minutes.
Spellcasters in general shouldn't completely dominate the game. They should augment it.
On July 11 2019 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote: They’re not fast though. Not really dangerously so anyway.
Speedlings as a unit have no gimmicky abilities or anything but there’s a hell of a lot you can do with them in micro terms because they’re extremely fast. Still Life’s lings > everyone else’s because he got so much done with them.
Nobody ever says ‘insert Protoss pro’s chargelots’ because they’re really quite limited by how they operate.
It’s just spitballing ideas really. As a Protoss player I’m frustrated by how limited certain units are to use, when I play T it’s by how easy certain comps are to use.
I think it would be an interesting idea, BW zealot legs open up a lot of micro and multitasking pontential that chargelots being 1A'd into the enemy don't have.
I even remember Day9 in his dailies were he would say chargelots were units that "microed themselves" in a joking manner.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Also, I feel nydus timing should be pushed back a bit.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Thankfully, the balance team disagrees.
Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Thankfully, the balance team disagrees.
Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback.
And yours has been duly noted, no doubt. I deeply admire the dedication of the balance team, reading through every comment on the 16th page of a discussion 10 days after the fact.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Thankfully, the balance team disagrees.
Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback.
And yours has been duly noted, no doubt. I deeply admire the dedication of the balance team, reading through every comment on the 16th page of a discussion 10 days after the fact.
On July 04 2019 11:23 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re saying you need a 350-500 mineral investment to defend against like, a potential 1k+ mineral warpin of units directory onto your production?
Seems sensible enough to do so. You don’t hear Protoss complaining about needing stalkers to defend drops, or batteries or whatever
yeah, there is such a thing as playing too safe and over-committing to defense.
greed > safe safe > aggression aggression > greed
you can't seem to be acknowledge the difference between a 500 / 75 gas mineral investment in the early-mid game and a 500 mineral / 75 gas investment in the later-mid game. the former investment fucks your economy, the other does not.
if you invest in defense for every possibility, you weaken yourself in another corner. OK, so you made a cyclone, a raven, a viking, tanks, 3 turrets, and a 3rd cc. tell me, where do you plan to find the resources for 5 barracks, an engi bay + upgrade, and a substantial bio ball on top of all that? I don't expect you to answer that question unless you have a deep understanding of Terran macro, which you don't.
the key word is potential 1k+ mineral warp-in. a smart Protoss can take advantage of a Terran who plays overly defensive. retreat your warp prism, take a fast fourth base, tech up, and get even more ahead. it's not difficult.
the reason why you don't hear Protoss complaining about having to build stalkers, shield batteries or cannons to defend drops is because there are no Terran drops to defend. HotS-style multi-pronged drop harass is gone. it only exists as a memory in your imagination. the meta revolves around 2-base tank pushes because that's the only chance for Terran to win.
tell me, what defenses do Protoss have to make against the "threat" of these so-called doom drops? even if the Terran is dumb enough to drop bio, you can recall. that's an energy investment, not a resource investment. it is not even comparable, dude.
This is just wrong
Protoss does in fact have to invest in early game defense against harass. Just because HOTS style harass is gone, doesn't mean Terran cannot and does not harass Protoss in the early game.
You understand that the greatest defensive Protoss player on the planet gets knocked out of GSL because a Terran player can boost a medivac into his main past 3 stalkers and kill 10 probes with a couple of mines
Or you can watch maru suicide mine drop after mine drop to eventually kill dear
One of the bread and butter Terran plays is dropping into ptrotoss base to snipe a tech structure. Or bio drop an expansion.
Lib harass
Hellion
The list goes on
Saying Protoss doesn't have to worry about investing in defense is just wrong
I was writing specifically about Protoss defenses against the threat of doom drops (the closest equivalence to mass zealot warp-ins). it's true that Protoss may have to build shield batteries vs cloak banshee and hellion harass.
hellions and banshees drop off in the mid-game. Maru's non-stop mine drop style is vulnerable to counter-attacks. TY's multi-pronged liberator / soft ground push is the most solid harassment option, but there is always an answer. there is no answer to the warp prism. T must focus his entire infrastructure to make harass units, while also preparing to defend against a slew of different counter-attack options. P's infrastructure is more flexible allows for a seamless transition into the mid-game. building early-game hellions / mines / banshees / liberators hurts Terran in some other corner: delayed barracks, delayed stim, lower marauder count going into the mid-game. I don't think it's comparable to the warp prism, which pays for itself even when zero damage is done, and which remains a very powerful unit into the late-game (storm drops).
I disagree with your claim that sniping Protoss tech structures and expansions in the mid-game is a bread & butter play. dropping large chunks of bio in the mid-game is a weak play. pro Terrans rarely lift their marauders off the ground nowadays. drops only work when your opponent is out of position, and it's incredibly difficult to do this vP because of recall. you even said so yourself: "HOTS style harass is gone"
You can do a hellion drop sub 4 minutes and the build is still economic.
Protoss couterattacking against a turtled terran spamming drops at their mineral line is not simple. if they neglect their base they lose entire economy. while trying to break the best defensive and most efficient race in the game
The answer to TY style harass is.....investing heavily in defense. if the protoss does not, he loses game. The investment, which is 3 or so stalkers per mineral line (and even that doesnt always prevent the drop/damage from occurring) is more than what terran needs to stop prism (a patroling viking, a raven, a cyclone, and/or a turret)
Terran literally has the most flexible and fastest tech tree out of all three races. You can do a massive stim push at 6:35 or so with 2-3 tanks, 2 libs, 2 cyclones, raven and couple of marauders and just boost medivacs to army while siege outside protoss base......if the protoss goes for 3rd base (nexus should be just finished and protoss will be caught with pants down trying to saturate base). Warp prism backstab does not hold a candle to the strength of this push. Also, the warp prism backstab comes with opportunity cost of no juggling during the front line engagement, as well as missing units at the front line.
I still see pros sending a medivac of bio to do damage at main/expansions. They arent heavy enough to warrant recall.
But anyway, you say you were talking about doom drops since they are the closest thing to mass zealot warp in. I strongly disagree that they are close in terms of capability. Marine maruder medivac mine is vastly superior to a handful of zealots in terms of raw power and capabilities. The races arent designed to be symmetrical. The whole philosophy of starcraft is asymmetric but equal. So Terran lacking doom drops nowadays has nothing to do with protoss ability to warp in chargelots in enemy base. Terran has its own strengths that protoss cannot dream of. Terran cannot simply be equal or better than protoss at everything.
I think this post sums up my thoughts very nicely.
In my mind it;s plain to see, help terran vs Z and P in late game a bit (not a lot) , anything else is just ludicrous.
Thankfully, the balance team disagrees.
Thankfully, the balance team recognizes their proposed changes are not always correct/set in stone and are looking for feedback.
And yours has been duly noted, no doubt. I deeply admire the dedication of the balance team, reading through every comment on the 16th page of a discussion 10 days after the fact.
Excellent rebuttal of the post I quoted.
Where was I trying to rebut anything you quoted? Where was I even making any kind of argument? I said that the balance team disagrees with your ludicrous assessment, which it obviously does, else this thread wouldn't exist.
Your unicorn needs a bath, by the way, since we're just making things up now.
21 seconds decreased research is not big enough of a change. I did dwell on this idea 15 months ago.
Bio doesn't just get better through Stim. There is a trade off, it costs health (*surprised_pikachu*). Stim is an investment and when T stims 10 Marines those need to do 100 more damage than they would have without Stim, just to be even. 21 seconds decreased research time opens about no new opportunities for this investment. Early in the game, this investment must carry T until Medivacs. Stimming a mostly Marine, no Combat Shield army a second time is about the last conscience thought before F10+n.
21 seconds happens to be the just in the middle between the build time of a Roach and the build time of a Stalker. I came to the conclusion that the speedup must be around 30-34 seconds (2 chroned Stalkers-ish), to actually become useable and then even more (2 unchroned Stalkers, i.e 46 seconds) to capitalize on it. Below 30 seconds this just increases T survivability in some random situations and T will probably still be far behind in most of those cases.
Yes, asking for 60 was a bit excessive, but of course I was expecting people to argue my proposed number would be too high, no matter what I said. Glad that after 15 months I get to blurp out the rest of what I had to say. Let's wait another 15 months.
What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
The other thing I would like to see Blizzard address is to equalize the common aspects of the races. Protoss got cheaper upgrades in WoL because they were on the back foot, but times have changed and nowadays Protoss are usually ahead in upgrades. The other such thing is the build time of supply depots, that was also nerfed early in WoL to sandbag proxy 2 rax builds. These are really minor changes, but they contribute to the fair feel of the game. Also, shorter supply depot build time might positively impact Terran macro across the board, as building a supply depot 3 seconds later opens up more mining time and a window where you might be able to add the production a bit earlier. But that's just theorycrafting.
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
Wait, you think that less doom drops is more coin flippy ))?
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
Wait, you think that less doom drops is more coin flippy ))?
If you want to phrase it like that, yes. If the tanks get nerfed the doom drops will be weaker as well and won't be as prevalent as you think. Also, if you could read my whole post before commenting it would be really nice.
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terranm, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
Not only are tanks nowhere near as strong as you think, they aren't the reason HotS style doomdrops fall out of meta. Doom drops dissapeared because players learned to maintain good map vision and the immportance of air superiority made vikings more common making it easier to catch drops.
Drops and harass are still and important part of the MU as well as knowing how to split your attention between drops and main tank line battles.
Your idea would not only make terran super weak in non MUs and make mech totally disspaear in all MUs but it would make TvT devolve into mindless mass marines like SHODAN said.
On July 13 2019 03:08 MrFreeman wrote: So when will the less radical version of these changes be published? The stronger ghost and weaker infestor are just ridiculous.
The balance team said a second set of changes will be released next week. But that's a new set entirely, not a modification on these changes. They're trying to test two parallel patches.
Also the ghost and infestor are the smallest and least controversial changes lmao. Same level as the interceptor change. Prism is the big fish.
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
again, I sympathize with you. I've been playing since WoL and my brain is so accustomed to stimming 1 marine forward, baiting the first tank shot, juking and jiving between the tank volleys to break a contain. now I refuse to play marine / tank because it's so infuriating.
personally, I would prefer very strong but very dumb BW-style tanks: remove smartfire, reinstate overkill, reduce attack speed, reduce the siege / unsiege time (perhaps tied to transformation servos), further buff tank damage and make them 2 supply. this way, you can use weak units to bait shots, manipulate them to inflict friendly fire on your opponent, while also rewarding the tank player who babysits his army and manages each tank individually. units with lop-sided stats, e.g. massive range or extremely high / low cooldowns, should be tempered with pronounced weaknesses in the name of fairness and fun. sc2 smartifre tanks tread a precarious middle-road where they are sometimes too strong, and sometimes completely useless (e.g. vs zealots).
the problem with bringing BW tanks to sc2 is that units clump much more easily in sc2. you'd have to completely redesign the balance of multi-player to accomodate BW tanks. maybe there is a compromise between the BW tank and sc2 tank that would work, but I can't really imagine what it would look like
On July 13 2019 03:08 MrFreeman wrote: So when will the less radical version of these changes be published? The stronger ghost and weaker infestor are just ridiculous.
The balance team said a second set of changes will be released next week. But that's a new set entirely, not a modification on these changes. They're trying to test two parallel patches.
Also the ghost and infestor are the smallest and least controversial changes lmao. Same level as the interceptor change. Prism is the big fish.
My toss strategies are so coin flippy, that the longer warp-in doesn't bother me that much and most of my marines go into bunkers, so I usually don't make stim :D .
On July 12 2019 09:04 K5 wrote: What I would like to see is some kind of redesign of Terran. During LotV and HotS, the tanks have been buffed multiple times, because Blizzard perceived Terran needed safety against mass roach attacks. As a Terran, I usually like when my race gets buffed, but in this case, tanks were buffed too much, to the point where they are still mostly useless against Protoss outside of early game defense, against Zerg they are still a support unit that is needed to control the masses of the swarm, but in TvT, where even before the buffs they were the core unit, they got overwhelmingly powerful to the point where there is no real variety in the matchup. Combine the tank strength with the current state of the raven and you get the current cancerous state of the matchup, where the tiniest mistake in control 99% of the time costs you the game, and because of tanks there is little to none comeback potential. Also remember that in HotS, hellbats got nerfed, not because of TvZ or TvP, but because in TvT it was the opener that had basically no counter (remember Bomber vs Keen on whirlwind, where Bomber just dropped hellbats on Keen until he tapped out). The same thing is happening now with raven tank pushes. To compensate for nerfing tanks, maybe a small bio buff could be used to keep Terran competitive against the other races.
so you want to go back to the good old days of WoL when pure marine / medic could gloriously YOLO into an entrenched tank defense and emerge victorious? you want a renaissance of non-stop marines and retarded aggression? imagine the variety that would give us! no reason to build a 2nd factory when tanks are so weak. no reason to build liberators when there are no scary tank lines to break. no reason to seize air superiority when there are no liberators to threaten your tank lines. no battlecruiser transition to settle the air superiority. no mech if you buff the marauder.
admittedly, mass marine was fun to watch and fun to play, at least for a little while. it was fun while it lasted and it didn't overstay it's welcome. Ryung vs Flash on Whirlwind remains one of my favourite games of all time. listen man, if you have a hard-on for bio and believe that mech (or even bio-mech) is less fun, that's your business and I can't stop you from feeling that way. the bone I'm picking with you here is the argument you used to justify your proposals. buffing bio / nerfing tanks would result in the exact thing that you accuse the tanks of doing: limiting variety in the match-up - except it would be a lot worse under your proposals.
you say that tanks were a core unit before the +dmg buffs, then you go on to say that there is no variety in the match-up. if terrans are making exactly the same number of tanks as before, what's changed? the openings? the core mid-game composition? the lategame?
I sympathize with your feelings on early-game TvT. raven / tank / mass viking is obnoxious as hell. there are a few counter-plays, but they require complete dedication from your infrastructure and macro. you really have to say to yourself before the game even starts: I'm not doing this viking vs viking shit anymore. if you choose this path, your options to harass are gone... but did you really have any to begin with? any unit you build from your starport that is not a viking or a raven = an advantage for your opponent when he eventually pushes with his air superiority. the tank count doesn't matter. the strength of tanks on paper doesn't matter. what makes tanks obnoxious is when they are afforded invincibility by air supremacy.
so if you really don't want to deal with that frustration, what are your options?
cyclone + air supremacy into mech > tank + air supremacy into bio. you don't even need that many cyclones. you don't even need the upgrade... 3 un-upgraded cyclones is the magic number for me. so long as you have more cyclones than him, you're golden. simply park your cyclones outside his natural, wait for him to move across the map, snipe marines and damage his vikings while he moves across, then you win the air battle easy. 3 cyclones + 1 raven into reactor viking breaks any kind of 3-gas tank / viking bullshit. I mean, it's good so long as you stay equal or ahead of your opponent throughout the early-game.
the other option is a fast(ish) stim (2-1-1) and medivacs with tanks. this is weak to harass, obviously, because you don't make vikings / ravens of your own, but if you're 100% certain that your opponent is going for a dedicated tank / viking / raven push, you can break it. I've seen Innovation boost his marines outside of his base, stop reinforcements, and then flank the tank contain outside his natural. usually he pulls SCVs and relies on doing counter-damage, so I don't think it's as solid as cyclones.
anyway, the only variety at stake is early-game harass. mid-game liberator harass, marine / tank drops and mech harass (hellion runbys + hellbat drops) are still a thing. I think it's fine to remove harass openers from TvT. harass-based early-games can be just as bad in terms of design
Maybe I didn't quite phrase everything correctly because I was writing that at 2 AM, but no, I never meant that pure bio should kill entranched positions. What I want is to be able to better capitalize when your opponent overextends with their tanks and to be actually able to make a difference when the tank count is equal but you have 20 more marines. In HotS and WoL, the marine count and the marine to tank ratio was actually a factor in the matchup, but nowadays everything revolves just about tanks. You have 30 more marines? I don't care, I have 1 tank more and you can't do anything. Also, in HotS, drops and harassment overall was way more common than nowadays, as it gets repelled too easily. Why send out a double medivac drop (20 supply) if it gets shut down by 1 tank and 1 bunker? Stuff like that makes the matchup really frustrating for me, because I like to outplay my opponents by multitasking, but in the current state of the matchup, the only thing that matters is the one army vs army fight that usually feels extremely coin flippy to me.
again, I sympathize with you. I've been playing since WoL and my brain is so accustomed to stimming 1 marine forward, baiting the first tank shot, juking and jiving between the tank volleys to break a contain. now I refuse to play marine / tank because it's so infuriating.
personally, I would prefer very strong but very dumb BW-style tanks: remove smartfire, reinstate overkill, reduce attack speed, reduce the siege / unsiege time (perhaps tied to transformation servos), further buff tank damage and make them 2 supply. this way, you can use weak units to bait shots, manipulate them to inflict friendly fire on your opponent, while also rewarding the tank player who babysits his army and manages each tank individually. units with lop-sided stats, e.g. massive range or extremely high / low cooldowns, should be tempered with pronounced weaknesses in the name of fairness and fun. sc2 smartifre tanks tread a precarious middle-road where they are sometimes too strong, and sometimes completely useless (e.g. vs zealots).
the problem with bringing BW tanks to sc2 is that units clump much more easily in sc2. you'd have to completely redesign the balance of multi-player to accomodate BW tanks. maybe there is a compromise between the BW tank and sc2 tank that would work, but I can't really imagine what it would look like
I don't think SC2 needs to get even more micro intensive. If ppl want overwhelmingly challenging game, the BW is there for them, SC2 is its own thing.
On July 08 2019 22:18 Wombat_NI wrote: I just don’t know is the answer, I’m not going to make authoritative statements as to the impact of potential changes because multiple things are all happening.
On July 10 2019 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote: Terrans do tend to enjoy their whining but there were periods their aggressive options were so strong that Blizzard gave Protoss the mothership core because they couldn’t figure out another way to balance the matchup. Thankfully they figured out that shield batteries were a much better solution in a strategy game than a ‘click to defend your base’
I hope you can also refrain from statements with weasel words such as how Terran players "tend to" enjoy their whining because it detracts from discussion and adds a false sense of authority to your opinions.
On July 10 2019 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote: Terrans do tend to enjoy their whining but there were periods their aggressive options were so strong that Blizzard gave Protoss the mothership core because they couldn’t figure out another way to balance the matchup. Thankfully they figured out that shield batteries were a much better solution in a strategy game than a ‘click to defend your base’
Actually, when Terran aggressive options were too strong, the builds got nerfed pretty soon (bunker build time, rax requires supply depot, supply depot build time, etc.). The mothership core was originally introduced in HotS to encourage Protoss to actually expand in PvP, where almost every game in late WoL ended up being 1 base 4 gate vs 4 gate. The MSC rightfully got removed, as a hero unit does not belong in a strategy game like StarCraft and because its defensive potential was too strong for the state of the game. Its replacements however, did produce some unintended results.
Ghost Snipes were nerfed in patch 1.4.3 after one tournament demonstrated their power to the balance team.
I have advocated for a nerf to EMP Rounds back when it was 2.0 radius and drained ALL energy without the need for an upgrade. Why? Because I could see Protoss players, despite earning substantial leads, would get dominated with just EMP spam. Now, the game design and balance has reversed to the point where Protoss can do the same by spamming Psionic Storms vs Terrans.
ps. Slightly off-topic but listen to the shouts and cries from the crowd in the game I linked above. Rightnow, the problem isn't just balance. It's also the fact that gameplay doesn't impress the crowd. People were so impressed by Mvp's ghosts because it was not common to see ghosts being used at that level. "BEAUTIFUL STORMS" doesn't mean a thing when a diamond or even platinum Protoss can pull it off.
remember, it's an upgrade, so it will not be used as early game cheese
will hopefully force Protoss to spread their units in late-game; adding to the difficulty of their game. Protoss with the skill ceiling to add that extra bit of micro will do better than those who don't. Ghosts will still remove only 100 energy (as opposed to ALL energy). If split well, there will be storms left over so that Terrans cannot just a-move afterwards. Sorry to the ladder warriors who clump up their armies, but its better for the overall health of the scene.
Finally, I'd like to again reiterate that the patch changes affect the games at different stages of play. The effects will be clearly discernable due to the primary impact occurring at specific stages. Yes, advantages do have a snowballing effect, but we can observe when the snowballing begins. If it starts at stim-timings, then yes, stim change is too strong. But there have been many posts stating that stim-timing relies on medivac timing as well, which remains unaffected.
Please look past your ladder MMR and think of the viewers.
I hope the stimpack change will never go through. It will break the game. Also it solves nothing just makes terran timing attacks / allins more stronger. Terran has to research only 2 unit specific upgrades in the game. Combat shields and stimpack. Other upgrades are just options basically. So we should not make terran even more upgrade free. The infestor change is ok, but you should not buff ghosts at the same time. I dont see any reason in TvP for stronger emp as well. Carrier change is ok. The warp prism needs to be nerfed but this change is too much. They should nerf the pickup range as well. Also BCs are op, and photon cannons need a longer build time. Nydus worm (not the network) is also too cheap, but i think they should not change it yet coz zerg has a very limited counterplay options. Spire play needs some kind of buff too.
On July 14 2019 07:06 Spirit_HUN wrote: I hope the stimpack change will never go through. It will break the game. Also it solves nothing just makes terran timing attacks / allins more stronger. Terran has to research only 2 unit specific upgrades in the game. Combat shields and stimpack. Other upgrades are just options basically. So we should not make terran even more upgrade free. The infestor change is ok, but you should not buff ghosts at the same time. I dont see any reason in TvP for stronger emp as well. Carrier change is ok. The warp prism needs to be nerfed but this change is too much. They should nerf the pickup range as well. Also BCs are op, and photon cannons need a longer build time. Nydus worm (not the network) is also too cheap, but i think they should not change it yet coz zerg has a very limited counterplay options. Spire play needs some kind of buff too.
Upgrade free? Terran is the race with the most available upgrades in the game.
Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Protoss can play with xbox controller and reach master 1, i did it.
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.
Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".
Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-
Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?
Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.
Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.
Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".
Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-
Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?
Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.
Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.
Protoss hasn’t been doing atypically well for ages though, Super Tournament yes but that’s been more the exception than the trend. WCS has generally not been that bad in terms of racial distribution for quite a while
This code S there are more Terrans through thus far to the Ro16 than other races.
Trend wise it seems Zergs have got better at finding counter measures to Robo centric immortal pushes than a few months ago as well.
Protoss don’t need buffs or anything, arguably they’re going to be over-nerfed because they’re the most complained about race, out of proportion with how ‘dominant’ people have perceived Protoss being for a while.
Changes perhaps sure especially with the prism, as things suggested stand Protoss has nothing useful to offset the proposed prism nerfs in a PvZ matchup that is already swinging against current builds.
Carrier buffs are still insufficient to overcome previous nerfs, especially the feedback nerf to counter vipers and investors, and Robo centric stuff is just outright weaker.
Changes may improve TvP slightly, although I think that matchup is actually pretty ok at the top level, but they risk making PvZ pretty terrible (even more terrible than it is now if that was possible)
I think it's just very bad for the game when some races have such powerful tools like nydus, warp prism, infestors, swarm hosts and some others. A unit with 200 mineral cost shouldn't be as much of a threat as it is rn, it's ridiculous. A unit that costs 50/50 shouldn't be able to teleport a whole army anywhere you want. They did not want terran to spam Ravens - good point. What about infestors now? Just fix all these broken units. Not just warp prism. SC2 could be so much more fun this way.
On July 15 2019 21:08 WayTeh wrote: Today is new set of changes? Anyone know what time?
first, with blizz being on the west coast and all they usually don't release announcements before 20:00 cest. second, they said that "the second set of changes will be available for testing on the week of July 15th", so it's not necessarily going to be today.
On July 15 2019 20:33 DrunkenSCV wrote: I think it's just very bad for the game when some races have such powerful tools like nydus, warp prism, infestors, swarm hosts and some others. A unit with 200 mineral cost shouldn't be as much of a threat as it is rn, it's ridiculous. A unit that costs 50/50 shouldn't be able to teleport a whole army anywhere you want. They did not want terran to spam Ravens - good point. What about infestors now? Just fix all these broken units. Not just warp prism. SC2 could be so much more fun this way.
agree, nydus is just ridiculous late game, imagine if terran could do medivac doom drop with no risk whatsoever, thats exactly what zergs can do with 50/50 unit and no supply cost ...
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.
Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".
Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-
Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?
Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.
Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.
I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor.
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.
Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".
Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-
Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?
Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.
Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.
I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor.
I weren't aware one player could qualify multiple times and fill a bracket by themselves.
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.
Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".
Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-
Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?
Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.
Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.
I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor.
I weren't aware one player could qualify multiple times and fill a bracket by themselves.
Wasn't aware Qualifiers were as important as championship titles
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Those results are basically even compared to how hard protoss stomped both zerg and terrans (but particularly terran) in the last 3 major korean tournaments.
Every time I pointed that out most posters were like "Better not patch too soon, its only been 1, 2, 3 tournaments of protoss domination. Its probably just that all protoss players got good at the same time".
Now when we have one tournament were protoss doesn't do well (its not even that bad, terran did far worse in any of the prior 3 korean tournaments) you post this one tournament as the reason protoss shouldn't be nerfed? -_-
Yeah sure, if protoss dominates three tournaments in rapid succession no patch is needed but if protoss doesn't do well in in one tournament they should definitely be buffed?
Maybe you are just trying to be a counter weight to all the "nerf protoss into the ground" posters (which would include me xD) but please, be sensible. Gross overexageration doesn't help the situation, if both sides just escalate their subjectivivity actual discussions will just be drowned out.
Personally I am a strong supporter of nerfing the WP, that doesn't mean I think protoss should be nerfed as a whole, if needed buffs to other areas could be needed but WP as an essential crutch for protoss needs to go. I do think templars are too strong vs terran and therefore think the ghost emp buff would be great but that is honestly the only real overall "nerf" I think is needed.
I didn't know Maru and Serral played protoss. Or Dark. Or Reynor.
I weren't aware one player could qualify multiple times and fill a bracket by themselves.
Wasn't aware Qualifiers were as important as championship titles
I'm particularly surprised they're not addressing the Warp Prism pick-up-drop micro though. It feels obviously broken and on display in almost every PvZ. It feels more broken than when Terran could pick up and drop tanks in siege mode. I was thinking that perhaps there could be a cooldown on units being dropped by prisms before they can attack. The long warp in is a big nerf though. I'm just not sure the main problem with the Warp Prism is the fast warp-in. I guess we will see!
On July 15 2019 11:51 Boggyb wrote: Just for reference, during the playoff rounds of WCS Summer, Protoss went: 12-19 in maps and 2-6 in series against Zerg. 4-7 in maps and 1-2 in series against Terran.
But yeah, Protoss really needs a nerf. That will definitely stop twitch chat from screaming P R O T O S S when a WCS Champion Protoss player takes 15+ minutes to beat a Zerg player who has never advanced beyond the round of 8 in a circuit wide LOTV WCS event.
Protoss can play with xbox controller and reach master 1, i did it.