EPTAs a viewer only, these days, I'm excited for some shake-up.
Community Update - July 2, 2019 - Page 10
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RogerChillingworth
2822 Posts
As a viewer only, these days, I'm excited for some shake-up. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany530 Posts
On July 03 2019 01:23 Ej_ wrote: I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base. I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main. Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games. "when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On July 03 2019 12:35 Psychonian wrote: nah man dont try to act like tankivacs werent also an absolutely gigantic load of bullshit lol Tankivacs didn't survive 2016. The clip I linked was ByuN juggling unsieged tanks to dodge roach shots. Something that causes Twitch chat Terrans to cream their pants but scream PROTOSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if it is a Warp Prism and Immortals. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On July 03 2019 12:55 Nezgar wrote: Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games. "when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here. You're whining that Protoss has too keep some units in their base to defend vs drop/nydus? Am I understanding this correct? LOL. Try not to keep defending units in your base vs Warprism as Zerg for example. | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote: My 2 cents: PvT - Ghost change is good - more value out of them outside sniping / emping templar. WP change is nice - but not really that big outside of making some of the all ins worse Late game they will have speed prism - so the game ending moments where Protoss flys 2 prisms in and keeps 1 alive and warps in zealots that can't be cleaned up by 8 rax production remains. Stim change honestly not sure - 3 rax no medevac stim/shields/shells/+1 push will come back for sure - and probably be pretty strong. None of the other timings really change? I feel like defensively tanks / tech units are more important than stim being done earlier - stim without medevacs can actually be worse. Overall I don't think this change will be enough to fix the matchup though - the early timing (really just one build) will be very strong - and late game I'm not sure larger radius on upgraded ghosts is enough - mass gateway reinforce + mass tempest / robo tech will still dominate T's late game army (which will have worse upgrade timings throughout) PvZ - WP change is nice for Z with the all ins regarding the chain reinforcing mid fight - but if anything I feel like it will just force the P to push slower because he won't be able to keep the prism juggling the immo's right in the middle of the fight. It still really doesn't address the power of the timings since Z has no way to deal with the prism at those timings outside of queens / bile (which only works while warping - which won't be warping now that 11 seconds etc) - queens don't live long enough to deny the prism. Counter suggestion to the proposed: Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Late Game: Mass spore infestor is super strong - infested terran nerf AA nerf with Interceptor buff may help that some but not sure - with fungal / IT combo the interceptors melt pretty fast. Tvz: Really unsure of ghost implication - will it be possible to hit more than 1 infestor / viper now? If so that's pretty big - but I don't think T is in a very strong spot in late game at the moment so might not be bad. Stim timing: Pretty sure the old Polt 3 rax Marine/Tank timing will make a comeback - but I think Z can hold if they scout well and build ravagers (which weren't around back then) Overall I think TvZ is the least impacted by this patch - which is probably the intent based on the matchup being by far in the best place of all 3 non mirrors. Overall in the right direction - but honestly believe that TvP needs a full reboot - I don't think the matchup can be salvaged with small changes. You dont underestimate the power of 2 radius emp. It was nerfed back then for a reason. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States669 Posts
But, I do like the warp prism nerf. I think the ghost change is kind of .. really huge. Lategame hits and all the sudden all the protoss units lose half their hp basically immediately, and there's not really a way to stop it. The raw power of protoss lategame versus terran has mostly to do with the deathball that results from HT, Collosus, and meat. Wouldn't it be prudent to add collision to the colossus instead? That would do the trick. I like that better than making everything in the lategame dependent on spellcasters. That's a person preference though. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On July 03 2019 12:55 Nezgar wrote: Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games. "when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here. Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
Remove that garbage gimmick and balance accordingly. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On July 03 2019 13:37 Boggyb wrote: Tankivacs didn't survive 2016. The clip I linked was ByuN juggling unsieged tanks to dodge roach shots. Something that causes Twitch chat Terrans to cream their pants but scream PROTOSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if it is a Warp Prism and Immortals. That's a terrible comparison, it's far harder and riskier to micro when you don't have 6 pickup range. Not to mention the payoff is way lower because Terran units have less health and no regenerating shields. | ||
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-KG-
Denmark1204 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On July 03 2019 05:21 Moonerz wrote: If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask? Random TL posters | ||
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Garmin Map Update
1 Post
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On July 03 2019 12:35 Psychonian wrote: nah man dont try to act like tankivacs werent also an absolutely gigantic load of bullshit lol Lolol im not talking about tankivacs.. im talking about this so called "imba" medevac juggling that no pro seems to use bc the medevac actually has to fly up to the units its juggling...or let me put it this way.. any Toss actually whining about terran medevac juggling should be cool with nerfing WP Prism range to medevac range lmao | ||
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RandomPlayer
Russian Federation383 Posts
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Nezgar
Germany530 Posts
On July 03 2019 14:55 Ej_ wrote: Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds. It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it. How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:03 Nezgar wrote: It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it. How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument. Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer? On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote: I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base. I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost EMP+Turret = dead prism. I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion. His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
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CoupdeBoule
73 Posts
Also Blizzard: we’re going to nerf Protoss to the ground | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6793 Posts
On July 03 2019 14:55 Ej_ wrote: Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds. It's actually quite common for Toss to keep some Templars back. To generate energy and to stop drops. Also multiple casters stated that 1 single cyclone is enough in most cases to deter any WP... | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:35 Shuffleblade wrote: Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer? All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion. His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone Wow didn't think i'd spark such conversation. My point was i feel terran complain about the WP and the warpin's but if they did have that viking patroling, or units back then they would be able to stop a WP quite easily. Protoss players have used to have HT's back to feedback medivacs. Now we do have things like DT's, Immortals etc back to defend with shield batteries and they even wall off from run-bys etc. I was theory crafting that an EMP on a warp prism or even the zealots that spawn, would make them significantly weaker. I just find it quite hypocritical when protoss do have to have stalkers back to watch out for widow mines.. and if one of those mines gets in early game then it is essentially a game ending move. Nezger explained this very well I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. Defensive bunkers? (equivalent of a shield battery).. never used. Walling in units so zealots cant hit them? never happens. My "shit post" was mocking the nerf when other races (terran) consistently do game ending damage with drops to protoss. Boost in, drop widow mines.. kill 17 workers.. boost out How is a 4 second warp in the issue ? I just think that protoss gets shafted every patch whilst other races don't even use the tools they have. The nerfs to protoss basically stop them pushing and make it even harder for them to put any pressure on a terrans back line. We have legit forms of harrass (maybe 3). WP, Oracles and Phoenixs. The cyclone shuts down the latter 2 so now they are nerfing the other other form of harass? the whole point of an RTS is to exploit weakness where it can be found. If you know they can warp in 20 units of tier 1 supply then plan for it. | ||
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