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On July 03 2019 03:39 GoSuNamhciR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 01:26 InfCereal wrote:On July 03 2019 00:35 Xain0n wrote:On July 02 2019 23:58 skdsk wrote:On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote:
probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing. This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment. If the timings are delayed, they don't benefit from reduced upgrade time How do they not benefit from it? Maybe their build starts stim 20 seconds later, in which case they will still benefit from it being done 21 seconds FASTER. It's faster regardless, they still benefit. They may not benefit as much, but their opponents are also likely doing everything slower since they are likely also playing other noobs, in which case they benefit again.
The point of a timing is that it exploits a weakness in your opponent.
If no one's playing tight, there's no timing to exploit. It's just an attack. If it's just a random attack, it doesn't matter when the upgrade is done, because it's not exploiting any timing.
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I agree with the prism nerf but that stim buff seems like it is overkill. With rush distances being as short as they are with this map pool, WOL-style stim pushes will hit before any meaningful tech counter Protoss can make. Protoss will be literally back at opening robo immortal/sentry so they don't die to a 3rax stim push like in the old days. Plus this buffs the already incredibly strong tank pushes while nothing has been done to ravens to make it so one raven can't disable all of Protoss' colossi or immortals during the tank push. Add to that the new ghost upgrade making mass ghost/viking/liberator even stronger in the lategame, and I can see PvT being even worse than it is now.
The carrier buff and Infestor nerf might help a bit but that won't solve that PvZ is turning back into infestor/broodlord/corruptor/viper with mass static defence. That composition is still borderline too strong for Protoss to beat when done properly. The feedback nerf was the cause of this style coming back, nothing else. The feedback nerf made it so running a group of infestors forward to try and land a fungal or neurals was much less risky since at worst a few infestors might lose energy, rather than being at risk of dying to a feedback. Because of this, engaging the Zerg army as Protoss is now significantly more difficult to do without taking a massive risk and potentially losing an entire air army to chain fungals and neurals along with viper grabs and corruptors.
These changes seem misguided and like they are missing the point, but I think that's been the case since the big December patch. That patch caused several issues, and they've been trying to fix it all ever since. I think the game was much more fun in last year's iteration than how it has been this year, proxies and all.
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My 2 cents:
PvT - Ghost change is good - more value out of them outside sniping / emping templar.
WP change is nice - but not really that big outside of making some of the all ins worse
Late game they will have speed prism - so the game ending moments where Protoss flys 2 prisms in and keeps 1
alive and warps in zealots that can't be cleaned up by 8 rax production remains.
Stim change honestly not sure - 3 rax no medevac stim/shields/shells/+1 push will come back for sure - and probably be pretty strong. None of the other timings really change? I feel like defensively tanks / tech units are more important than stim being done earlier - stim without medevacs can actually be worse.
Overall I don't think this change will be enough to fix the matchup though - the early timing (really just one build) will be very strong - and late game I'm not sure larger radius on upgraded ghosts is enough - mass gateway reinforce + mass tempest / robo tech will still dominate T's late game army (which will have worse upgrade timings throughout)
PvZ - WP change is nice for Z with the all ins regarding the chain reinforcing mid fight - but if anything I feel like it will just force the P to push slower because he won't be able to keep the prism juggling the immo's right in the middle of the fight.
It still really doesn't address the power of the timings since Z has no way to deal with the prism at those timings outside of queens / bile (which only works while warping - which won't be warping now that 11 seconds etc) - queens don't live long enough to deny the prism.
Counter suggestion to the proposed:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Late Game:
Mass spore infestor is super strong - infested terran nerf AA nerf with Interceptor buff may help that some but not sure - with fungal / IT combo the interceptors melt pretty fast.
Tvz:
Really unsure of ghost implication - will it be possible to hit more than 1 infestor / viper now?
If so that's pretty big - but I don't think T is in a very strong spot in late game at the moment so might not be bad.
Stim timing: Pretty sure the old Polt 3 rax Marine/Tank timing will make a comeback - but I think Z can hold if they scout well and build ravagers (which weren't around back then) Overall I think TvZ is the least impacted by this patch - which is probably the intent based on the matchup being by far in the best place of all 3 non mirrors.
Overall in the right direction - but honestly believe that TvP needs a full reboot - I don't think the matchup can be salvaged with small changes.
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On July 03 2019 04:03 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 03:39 GoSuNamhciR wrote:On July 03 2019 01:26 InfCereal wrote:On July 03 2019 00:35 Xain0n wrote:On July 02 2019 23:58 skdsk wrote:On July 02 2019 23:20 brickrd wrote:
probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol casual ladder, nobody below master made ghost, what will change now? Nothing. Stim timing push?Nobody below master even understand what is timing. This last statement is very far from truth, timings will be landed with delay but that's the typical "lol those low leaguers are soo nooob" comment. If the timings are delayed, they don't benefit from reduced upgrade time How do they not benefit from it? Maybe their build starts stim 20 seconds later, in which case they will still benefit from it being done 21 seconds FASTER. It's faster regardless, they still benefit. They may not benefit as much, but their opponents are also likely doing everything slower since they are likely also playing other noobs, in which case they benefit again. The point of a timing is that it exploits a weakness in your opponent. If no one's playing tight, there's no timing to exploit. It's just an attack. If it's just a random attack, it doesn't matter when the upgrade is done, because it's not exploiting any timing.
No the point of a timing is building everything in a set order to create as lethal of an attack as possible. Its not about the timing it is about the army, if you could get the same army and attack with it 10 seconds earlier you would, because you are not aiming at a specific time you are aiming for a specific army.
The question isn't what time should I attack, the question is at what point can I get the strongest army compared to his army.
If you were right timing attacks would only be used when very specific builds from the opponent are scouted, because that is the only time you would know of an actual "window" of weakness and then you would go at that time with whatever you have. Normally you aim for a timing attack no matter if protoss went twilight or robo, thats just what you're going to do this game, a timing attack.
So yeah, for summary lower levels gain equal value from shorter upgrade times. Its like saying that buffing x units damage is only a buff for GM+ level players because they are the only ones that can micro well enough to really get the most out of that damage buff. Newbie players get the same value from buffs like that since they are playing equally bad opponents.
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As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
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On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
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On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out.
Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say "Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!".
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Northern Ireland26532 Posts
On July 03 2019 05:21 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
Depends who the person is and their mindset really. The whole way up from bronze to pro gaming you’ll have people who always think their race is the worst, and you’ll have people who are less prone to balance whining.
Pro gamers are an invaluable source of feedback on the viability of certain things, or what x change might mean for sure, as long as their views are mediated a bit by other knowledgeable folk too,
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On July 03 2019 06:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:21 Moonerz wrote:On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask? Depends who the person is and their mindset really. The whole way up from bronze to pro gaming you’ll have people who always think their race is the worst, and you’ll have people who are less prone to balance whining. Pro gamers are an invaluable source of feedback on the viability of certain things, or what x change might mean for sure, as long as their views are mediated a bit by other knowledgeable folk too,
they are invaluable data for the current meta tweak because pub players and even most foreigners just dont have the clean execution like them to truly show off wut is strong or not
most balance patches are "nerf" for current meta and slightly "buff" to others areas to make them switch thing up but to force most of them to play differently ?
a post blizzcon design patch is needed
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Wow. They really need to think twice about that stim timing. If they go through with it every zerg on the ladder is going to end up with win rates like 30% ZvT, 50% ZvZ and 70% ZvP (since ladder win rates need to average to 50%). Then we will hear Protoss whine about Zerg being op when the actual problem is the downstream effects of stim timings.
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On July 03 2019 05:48 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say " Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!".
Those two scenarios aren't really comparable.
1) There would almost never be a good idea to fly around a medivac with two tanks to harass or attack with alone. The reason is that a "normal" drop would do more damage faster and since medivacs have 0 pickup range they are much easier to kill or zone while killing the tanks.
2) In an actual fight situation it is almost always better to have the tanks sieged and you cant do it with sieged tanks therefore this trick is almost never usable. The only time you want to unsiege if the fight isn't over is if you need to pick up and gtfo.
3) If due to some rare weird situation there would be a medivac and two tanks on the field vs enemy units it would only be possible to pull off if the opponent have 0 anti air. Because unlike wp medivacs dont have pickup range, this means that while wp can get out of AA range the immortals can fight the opponent while also being safe because of wp pickup range. This in itself makes for natural kiting since wp can drop move away, immortal shots, wp pickup and drops again, immortals shot and so on.
As I've explained doing it with tanks and a medivac is many times harder and in pretty much all fights entirely unviable. Wp and immortals however is not hard and super common. The first couple of times protoss players did this everyone did go nuts just like they do when terran players do it with tanks. Nowadays its commonplace, weird if you dont do it and also not regarded as especially difficult to do.
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On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
PvT -
Overall I don't think this change will be enough to fix the matchup though - the early timing (really just one build) will be very strong - and late game I'm not sure larger radius on upgraded ghosts is enough - mass gateway reinforce + mass tempest / robo tech will still dominate T's late game army (which will have worse upgrade timings throughout)
I think that a slight tweak to Steady Targetting would help against mass gateway reinforce.
late-game scenario: T and P have a huge engagement which wipes out most of the core army (gateway units + MMM). a handful of cloaked ghosts survive because the observer was sniped, but now they are low on energy.
back in WoL, ghosts could stand their ground after the army reset, long enough for reinforcing marines / marauders to join them. you could insta-snipe the mass zealot reinforce, continue to snipe observers and pick off stray units. this was scrappy and fun! I remember stimming marauders all the way across the map to reinforce my ghosts and keep the momentum up. in LotV, you need a chunk of MMM to body-block the zealot reinforce, otherwise steady shot will be cancelled. now the zealots can charge in, get a quick surround on the ghosts, and cancel ~60% of the shots. this has hurt terran's ability to parade-push and play scrappy in the late-game.
insta-snipe is probably gone for good... what I would suggest is a compromise between snipe and steady shot:
After carefully aiming for 1.43 seconds while not taking damage, the Ghost fires a sniper round dealing 170 damage. If damage is taken during the 1.43 second aiming animation, the damage is reduced to 85 (no mana refund).
with this tweak, P still gets a partial reward for disrupting the spell, T gets a partial punishment for casting the spell at an inopportune time, but not punished so hard that he loses all the ghosts to chargelots.
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On July 03 2019 07:52 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:48 Boggyb wrote:On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say " Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!". Those two scenarios aren't really comparable. 1) There would almost never be a good idea to fly around a medivac with two tanks to harass or attack with alone. The reason is that a "normal" drop would do more damage faster and since medivacs have 0 pickup range they are much easier to kill or zone while killing the tanks. 2) In an actual fight situation it is almost always better to have the tanks sieged and you cant do it with sieged tanks therefore this trick is almost never usable. The only time you want to unsiege if the fight isn't over is if you need to pick up and gtfo. 3) If due to some rare weird situation there would be a medivac and two tanks on the field vs enemy units it would only be possible to pull off if the opponent have 0 anti air. Because unlike wp medivacs dont have pickup range, this means that while wp can get out of AA range the immortals can fight the opponent while also being safe because of wp pickup range. This in itself makes for natural kiting since wp can drop move away, immortal shots, wp pickup and drops again, immortals shot and so on. As I've explained doing it with tanks and a medivac is many times harder and in pretty much all fights entirely unviable. Wp and immortals however is not hard and super common. The first couple of times protoss players did this everyone did go nuts just like they do when terran players do it with tanks. Nowadays its commonplace, weird if you dont do it and also not regarded as especially difficult to do.
Go watch ByuN vs Rogue on Blood Boil at IEM Shanghai in 2017.
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On July 03 2019 05:48 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say " Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!".
Pretty sure everyone thought tankivacs were stupid and complained about them, funnily enough especially in TvZ early game where, you guessed it, Zerg had no reasonable counter.
edit: If you mean just tanks unsieged in a medivac, then yes the two are entirely uncomparable. Warp prisms and Immortals both regenerate health and warp prism have a much easier time staying safe due to the pick up range. Terran with tanks in a medivac can in no way do what immortals in a warp prism do.
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On July 03 2019 09:45 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:48 Boggyb wrote:On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say " Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!". Pretty sure everyone thought tankivacs were stupid and complained about them, funnily enough especially in TvZ early game where, you guessed it, Zerg had no reasonable counter. edit: If you mean just tanks unsieged in a medivac, then yes the two are entirely uncomparable. Warp prisms and Immortals both regenerate health and warp prism have a much easier time staying safe due to the pick up range. Terran with tanks in a medivac can in no way do what immortals in a warp prism do.
Just admit that you jizz your pants when ByuN juggled those tanks to abuse the roaches but scream "PROTOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!" when a Protoss player does it. I won't judge you.
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On July 03 2019 05:21 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask progamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
Saying you can't get legit balance feedback from them is a bad way to phrase it, but balance feedback from progamers should absolutely be taken with a truck full of salt considering that they do have a very direct benefit from their race being strong.
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these changes are long overdue
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On July 03 2019 05:48 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say " Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!".
Not from a range where units in the ground cant target the medevac tho. Theres a timer on it.. thats very different
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On July 03 2019 11:48 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:48 Boggyb wrote:On July 03 2019 04:57 DomeGetta wrote:
Put a small delay on when the units can fire once they come out of the prism - it really doesn't make sense that only zerglings can hit juggling units while they get a free shot no matter what everytime - this will also help with SB/Immo proxies where the game ends once 2 immos / prism comes out. Terran players can abuse this with tanks and medivacs but of course when they do it people say " Oh, he's incredible" but when a Protoss does it, they say "God damn it!". Not from a range where units in the ground cant target the medevac tho. Theres a timer on it.. thats very different
nah man dont try to act like tankivacs werent also an absolutely gigantic load of bullshit lol
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EPT
