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On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote:
Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad.
You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D
Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
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Russian Federation390 Posts
This is too hard, it will kill protoss..
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On July 03 2019 22:48 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote:
Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad. You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
And people weren't complaining about Protoss being OP?
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On July 03 2019 22:34 La1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 21:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 03 2019 21:03 Nezgar wrote:On July 03 2019 14:55 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 12:55 Nezgar wrote:On July 03 2019 01:23 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote:
I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost
EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base. I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main. Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games. "when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here. Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds. It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it. How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument. Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer? On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote:
I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost
EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion. His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone Wow didn't think i'd spark such conversation. My point was i feel terran complain about the WP and the warpin's but if they did have that viking patroling, or units back then they would be able to stop a WP quite easily. Protoss players have used to have HT's back to feedback medivacs. Now we do have things like DT's, Immortals etc back to defend with shield batteries and they even wall off from run-bys etc. I was theory crafting that an EMP on a warp prism or even the zealots that spawn, would make them significantly weaker. I just find it quite hypocritical when protoss do have to have stalkers back to watch out for widow mines.. and if one of those mines gets in early game then it is essentially a game ending move. Nezger explained this very well  I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. Defensive bunkers? (equivalent of a shield battery).. never used. Walling in units so zealots cant hit them? never happens. My "shit post" was mocking the nerf when other races (terran) consistently do game ending damage with drops to protoss. Boost in, drop widow mines.. kill 17 workers.. boost out How is a 4 second warp in the issue ? I just think that protoss gets shafted every patch whilst other races don't even use the tools they have. The nerfs to protoss basically stop them pushing and make it even harder for them to put any pressure on a terrans back line. We have legit forms of harrass (maybe 3). WP, Oracles and Phoenixs. The cyclone shuts down the latter 2 so now they are nerfing the other other form of harass? the whole point of an RTS is to exploit weakness where it can be found. If you know they can warp in 20 units of tier 1 supply then plan for it.
Wow, that is very reasonable, sorry for my offensive tone =P
Regarding your argument that terran players should "plan" for it by viking/holding units back/cyclone, you make it sound so easy but if there is no way for any player of any race to prepare for everything the opponent can do. If you build cyclones defensively you open yourself up to other vulnarabilities because of the things you don't have because you got cyclones. You also lose ability to attack the opponent, maybe you can harass back but if your opponent defends that and outgreeds you it was simply a bad strategic decision to "get ready for wp harass".
Your argument reminds me a lot of the old saying "how do you stop protoss deathball/skytoss - by not letting them get there".
"Just prepare for it", "just kill them before", "just do x". Its not that simple and thats why we love starcraft.
WP is too strong because it too small of a risk for the protoss, the reason its worth of protoss to keep units back to defend is because if they kill the terran drop they also kill a big part of the army. Not only do you defend a possible vulnerability but you can also get and edge, if terran keeps units back to kill a wp they gain almost nothing. Some production time on the robotics, its not worth to keep units back for that. In my opinion its too strong, (imagine protoss has 2 wp) if terran keeps units back protoss can just warpin with their army in 4 secs, get army advantage on the frontline and win headon. If terran don't keep units back protoss warpin 11 zealots in the main/natural and stall/runaway form the main fight. Protoss keeps the threat of heavy warpin at almost no cost and at basically 0 risk, medivacs take units away from the army and are high risk.
I agree that a viking is an easy counter but to always just have viking "just in case" is quite a bit of a wasted asset early on. Its a little like worker scouting, it is easy to do, it helps and costs little but because its so early on in the game a small cost is a big cost.
One very important factor about starcraft is to cut corners, if you try to play safe in every way you opponent will likely gain a huge economic edge because staying safe is both expensive, slow and means not focusing on the offense so you cant punish.
I do agree with a lot you say, there are tools terran can use but there are mostly reasons for why they do not, the viking I really agree with you about though. It is a cheap and good way to prevent that the wp harass never ends.
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On July 03 2019 05:21 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask?
You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works.
All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
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On July 03 2019 22:34 La1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 21:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 03 2019 21:03 Nezgar wrote:On July 03 2019 14:55 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 12:55 Nezgar wrote:On July 03 2019 01:23 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote:
I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost
EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
I love how protoss can call the nydus OP when they can make their entire army in a base. I've never seen a single protoss defend a base with an immortal and a cannon immortal + cannon = dead nydus I guess they don't need to because they are busy warping in 50 zealots into zerg main. Except that Protoss players actually do this. Maybe not an Immortal and a Cannon (although that might actually have happened), but other units that have to stay back. I am pretty sure that I have seen DTs and other units on duty to defend against Nydus in the most recent tournaments. Protoss players constantly keep units back in their base to defend against drops and Nydus. They place Pylons in locations to spot incoming drops and keep flying units on the paths that Overlords and Medivacs/Liberators usually take when flying into a Protoss base. You should know this... unless you focus more on posting in the threads than on actually watching the games. "when they can make their entire army in a base" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That Protoss makes their entire army inside their own base? In any base? The enemy base? Which base are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? This reminds me of the ramblings of a mad person. I cannot even count that as a hyperbole. It's as if words have lost all meaning here. Sorry if I was misunderstood. The entire point of my post was to: a) ridicule the whiny suggestion of an amateur player that progamers should keep their spellcaster, that plays key role in big army fights, at home to defend a 200 minerals unit. Hence the comparision to an immortal, that can't afford to sit idle in the base entire day, given its cost. b) highlight the fact, that in fact, the game is not symmetrical, and different races are balanced around different mechanics, and comparing directly ability to drop of both Terran and Protoss is ridiculous, especially as warp prism can drop nothing or make 20 supply in your main out of thin air, in 4 seconds. It's an odd choice to make a low quality post in order to ridicule someone else for their low quality post, instead of explaining how and why they are wrong. While I don't agree that Terrans should keep a Ghost in their base, it has been painfully obvious that they should think about keeping some units back in order to defend against a game-winning move. I have seen countless games in which a single patrolling Viking would have shut down the Warp Prism but instead that Viking gets sent out across the map to suicide into the enemy mineral line. And casters have, rightfully so, pointed out glaring mistakes like this. It's a question of wrong priorities and progamers are notorious for getting those wrong and being stubborn about it. How is comparing mechanics of different races ridiculous? I don't think he was right, but some of what he mentioned is worth talking about. How is it alright that Protoss has to keep 4 Stalkers back in their base to defend against a drop that can potentially inflict game-ending damage, but it's not alright that Terran should do a similar thing? "I am not supposed to do those things because I am a Terran and not a Protoss" is not a valid argument. Please, are you serious when you're saying that this post was worth a thoughtful answer? On July 03 2019 00:33 La1 wrote:
I love how terran can call the WP OP when they can drop their entire army into a base.
I've never seen a single terran defend a base with a turret and a ghost
EMP+Turret = dead prism.
I guess they don't need to because they are busy dropping 50 widow mines onto protoss back lines
All he is saying is: [Inser race here] has no right to discuss the balance of X unit because their race has Y unit which is much more OP and therefore [insert race here]s are not allowed to have an opinion. His shitpost is not worthy of serious reply and Ej_ answer was spot on, had a chuckle at it and its just the kind of reply you're supposed to get when you try to devalue other opinions. Saying that X person/race/fanboys/whatever have no right to have an opinion because of Y is never alright never ever is their whine worth discussing in a serious tone i feel terran complain about the WP and the warpin's but if they did have that viking patroling, or units back then they would be able to stop a WP quite easily. Protoss players have used to have HT's back to feedback medivacs. Now we do have things like DT's, Immortals etc back to defend with shield batteries and they even wall off from run-bys etc.
1 viking on patrol or units back home? this does not stop a warp prism
1 viking on patrol and 3 turrets andunits back home? this deflects the prism, but does not necessarily kill the prism. a smart protoss player will simply retreat, realizing that the prism has already paid for itself. 300 minerals (turrets) + 50 minerals (lost mining time) + 150 minerals, 75 gas (1 viking)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/E4BQbUR.jpg)
if the prism follows the northernmost horizontal arrow, the viking gets 1 shot off, P sees the turret and turns around.
if the prism follows the middle arrow (slightly north of T's third), same story.
if the prism follows the westernmost vertical arrow, it comfortably survives the turret and drops 4 adepts or 4 zealots in the natural. if T is lucky with the barracks production cycle, he will have 3 freshly spawned marauders and 4 marines to deal with the drop. if T is unlucky, there will be a huge warp-in.
meanwhile, P is saturating an uncontested third base and threatening T's third with a large gateway army. T certainly can't go on the offensive after spending 500 minerals on static defense and a viking.
this scenario takes place during the fragile early-mid phase, when T is still trying to power up and saturate his third. HT's were used to feedback medivacs in the late-mid phase of HotS. losing 1 worker at the 14-minute mark is far, far better than losing 1 worker at the 3-minute mark. likewise, spending 500 minerals on dedicated defense in the late-mid is a much lesser investment than spending 500 minerals in the early-mid phase.
if T wants to contest P's third, T needs to sacrifice the viking, at least 1 of those turrets, and rally his barracks across the map to reinforce the push. this gives the warp prism complete freedom to zip into T's main. once T's push is held, P can afford to warp 20 supply of zealots and keep T pinned back while taking a fourth.
your theory-crafting fails to consider the delicate timings, resource limitations and macro mechanics of TvP. it's blindingly obvious that warp prisms are too much, too early of a threat. securing a third base should be a skill in-and-of itself. among pro terrans, Maru is the best at it, yet he still takes heavy loses while struggling to secure a third.
I was theory crafting that an EMP on a warp prism or even the zealots that spawn, would make them significantly weaker.
I just find it quite hypocritical when protoss do have to have stalkers back to watch out for widow mines.. and if one of those mines gets in early game then it is essentially a game ending move.
your example of keeping stalkers at home to defend early mine drops is not even comparable to what T is facing right now. mine drops rarely end the game. the whole point of 2019 mine drops is to interrupt mining (not necessarily kill probes), to force some defensive units (stalkers, which you were gonna build anyway), and to scout your infrastructure. non-stop mine drops are no longer viable because twilight counter-attacks are so strong. glaives follow-up? mass blink follow-up? terran with few or no tanks? good night terran. just watch Maru's GSL game vs. Patience. no... there is no such thing as non-stop mine drops. the scariest thing P has to face is a single medivac with 3 widow mines. OK... it's better for terran to drop the mines ASAP (remember the rule? losing 1 worker at the 14-minute mark is far, far better than losing 1 worker at the 3-minute mark). so what happens if you open twilight and terran simply camps the dead space with his medivac? you have to keep 1 stalker in each mineral line and pull the probes away when the mine burrows. the mines are on a timer (T can only burrow / unburrow once, sometimes no reburrowing at all). is that really so scary? compared to all the shit P can throw in the early game? comeonnow.jpg
I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. Defensive bunkers? (equivalent of a shield battery).. never used.
comparing a zero-supply, 6-range "shield medic" to a structure which needs army supply, load / unload micro, mineral repairs and maybe even damaging your own units while they stim inside the bunker. yeah right...
Walling in units so zealots cant hit them? never happens.
there's a good reason it never happens. T can't safely wall-off the natural with supply depots in the early phase. T needs to keep his tank back a bit (behind the bunker, hugging the CC, out of range of the stalkers firing at the depots). you risk losing the tank or risk losing the depots. remember what I said about losing stuff so early in the game? not worth it. third base, tight wall-ins? bad idea, unless your playing on Thunderbird or King's Cove. do you mean walling in units on the fly? running units into a corner and building engi bays around them? I mean, OK... might be tough with zealots blocking the construction tiles.
Boost in, drop widow mines.. kill 17 workers.. boost out
I miss HotS
The nerfs to protoss basically stop them pushing and make it even harder for them to put any pressure on a terrans back line. We have legit forms of harrass (maybe 3). WP, Oracles and Phoenixs. The cyclone shuts down the latter 2 so now they are nerfing the other other form of harass?
1 cyclone shuts down an oracle and 4 phoenix? you know T can't make more than 1 or 2 cyclones in TvP, right? cyclones fall off pretty darn fast and we need that factory to build other things. remember the blink follow-up? adept follow-up? T needs tanks to defend that. having enough widow mines to deal with the chargelots when we pressure the uncontested third that you have already taken behind your oracle / phoenix harass?
the whole point of an RTS is to exploit weakness where it can be found. If you know they can warp in 20 units of tier 1 supply then plan for it.
funny how P is able to find and exploit the same weakness over and over again. it's not feasible for Terran to keep a chunk of T1 units at home, at all times, to deal with the mere possibility of a chargelot warp-in - nor is it feasible to build a ghost academy and 1 ghost for the sole purpose of EMPing your warp prism in the resource-hungry early-mid phase. the best T can do is build 2 turrets, hope that the barracks reinforcements spawn just in the nick of time, or hope that P fucks up somehow.
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^ blizzard hope you taking notes.
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On July 04 2019 00:05 Dedraterllaerau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:21 Moonerz wrote:On July 03 2019 05:19 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
As a Protoss player, I really hope Blizzard goes through with this patch so they can finally learn that twitch chat and popular streamers/personalities and pro gamers are not the places to get legit balance feedback.
If you can't ask pro gamers about the highest level of play who can you reasonably ask? You don't have to be a pro gamer to understand how the game works. All you need is a very capable player with high understanding and knowledge of the game who can make good unbiased decisions. Clearly, Blizzard does not have any of those working for them. (probably too expensive for them)
Yes, you don't have to be a pro player to understand the game. But I am far more likely to believe that people who make their living off of the game might know quite a bit about the game as opposed to some random high level player.
I'm sure Blizzard asks a panel of pros what they think about certain things. They then use that information combined with their thoughts and the stats they have to start making changes. They're not just asking one pro player and then making sweeping changes to the game. Regardless of how you try to frame it pro player input is extremely valuable to balance discussions/changes.
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On July 03 2019 22:34 La1 wrote:
I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them.
You nailed it, man. That is the core problem - terrans build marines exclusively (almost) and balance-whine if they lose.
User was warned for this post.
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On July 04 2019 04:38 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 22:34 La1 wrote:
I just think that terran has a lot of tools to use and they don't use them. You nailed it, man. That is the core problem - terrans build marines exclusively (almost) and balance-whine if they lose.
terrans do not build marines exclusively (or almost exclusively). you sound like someone who has not played sc2 since the WoL BETA
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Excellent changes.
The Stim change means Terrans will rush toward it and die even harder to my one base builds.
And any Protoss who builds their Gateways anywhere other than in the Zerg's natural is doing it wrong anyway.
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On July 03 2019 23:14 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 22:48 gTank wrote:On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote:
Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad. You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet. And people weren't complaining about Protoss being OP?
Back then people were complaining about Terran being overpowered, because they were. Terran got a Blue flame hellion nerf right around the time they fixed archon toilet and buffed zealots by a lot.
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This is going to be a rather heavy handed post, because I'm sick of balance whining. If players of SCBW were as big of babies as the community (and even certain pro-gamers) are in today's world they would have been fined or banned from KeSPA immediately for poor conduct and in NO WAY would brood war have been such the legend of a game it is today.
It would be nice to see some leashes put on influencers like heromarine. It hasn't been since IdrA that someone has given me such a headache when I have to ask why he still even plays the fucking game at this point for how much he complains. There's nothing wrong with having your opinions, but when you are paid to play a video game at a high level don't be such a cunt about it and expect to still get paid. Keep it on the ladder when you're not sponsored and have such a toxic effect on the community.
I'm not saying Balance cannot be talked about, IMO warp prism has always been a sketchy concept, and some revisions could make the margin of error far better in terms of gameplay, but when you have actual pros saying shit like "remove protoss from the game" it's obviously going to trickle down through the community.
There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL. BW was always T > Z > P > T, pros accept that because they love the game and the mechanics make it an INHERENT concept for the game to be the way it is, you cannot play bio (in brood war) VS protoss or you die, it was an inherent limitation of the matchup. Terran gets bodied by splash damage, obviously, when approaching the PvT match-up you have to take that into consideration. If protoss got a recall off into your main in BW and you weren't ready with a proper sim city or mines, better econ, then you deserve to lose in regards to that matchup. Sometimes the entire matchup revolves around certain concepts, and that's fine.
How about Zerg complaints? Let's take a look at Protoss vs Zerg in Brood War, shall we?
Zerg has variety of options/All-ins to butt fudge protoss at every stage of the game? Check
Hard to scout what zerg is doing, extremely critical to know EXACTLY what's coming at you? Check
Oh my, it almost seems like a game with zero balance patches in over a decade has the exact same "problems" Zergs are whining about in starcraft 2, look how much the metagame has shifted over a decade of zero interaction from devs. The historical win rate for P in that matchup is (relative to sc2's pretty good track record) absolute garbage. Yet there have still been periods of absolute Protoss domination within regards to the metagame, which we are likely experiencing now in SC2.
Yet there are still Zerg's absolutely slaying them, those zergs are pushing the meta forward. Guess what, it's the zergs who love the game and play with what they're given, while the whiners are left to whine.
Starcraft is too fucking beautiful to let whiners bring it down to that level, how many retarded balance changes have been implemented because of percieved whining instead of actual design decisions for legitimate reasons to make the game better? We will never know, but i guarentee that if SC2 set out to be a good game first, and an esport second it would be a much better game than it is.
Even just look at all the fuss about Thunderbird and Turbo Cruise before they were put on the ladder, all the whiners in the world came out and pro gamers said they would never touch the map, some of the most interesting games we've had in years were played on those maps! I love those features! Whiners and pro gamers have a bigger effect than they realize, if you give them power they ruin the game.
Just make the most beautiful RTS in the world blizzard, fuck the haters.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote:
There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL.
Any hope you had of anyone at all taking you remotely seriously was lost here. I really hate to just go off but this is in all honesty the single most ridiculous post in this entire thread.
Also, comparing Heromarine to Idra is completely ridiculous. The worst I've seen Heromarine do in terms of BM is leaving games without a GG and manner muling. He doesn't throw slurs at people, and is almost always polite to his competitors and community members. Compare this to Idra, who constantly said that the game was bad, flipped people off at events, regularly refused to shake hands, and called the entire community a bunch of idiots who he gets paid to treat like shit. It isn't even close.
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On July 04 2019 06:36 Psychonian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote:
There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL. Any hope you had of anyone at all taking you remotely seriously was lost here. I really hate to just go off but this is in all honesty the single most ridiculous post in this entire thread. Also, comparing Heromarine to Idra is completely ridiculous. The worst I've seen Heromarine do in terms of BM is leaving games without a GG and manner muling. He doesn't throw slurs at people, and is almost always polite to his competitors and community members. Compare this to Idra, who constantly said that the game was bad, flipped people off at events, regularly refused to shake hands, and called the entire community a bunch of idiots who he gets paid to treat like shit. It isn't even close.
IdrA was extremely BM, Heromarine is not.
When it comes to balance whine, Heromarine surely is notable, and he is not even the only EU Terran who is vocal about perceived balance to a level you wouldn't expect from a progamer.
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On July 04 2019 06:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2019 06:36 Psychonian wrote:On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote:
There is nothing wrong with matchups being gameplay favored in one races favor. In a game like starcraft it's ESSENTIAL. Any hope you had of anyone at all taking you remotely seriously was lost here. I really hate to just go off but this is in all honesty the single most ridiculous post in this entire thread. Also, comparing Heromarine to Idra is completely ridiculous. The worst I've seen Heromarine do in terms of BM is leaving games without a GG and manner muling. He doesn't throw slurs at people, and is almost always polite to his competitors and community members. Compare this to Idra, who constantly said that the game was bad, flipped people off at events, regularly refused to shake hands, and called the entire community a bunch of idiots who he gets paid to treat like shit. It isn't even close. IdrA was extremely BM, Heromarine is not. When it comes to balance whine, Heromarine surely is notable, and he is not even the only EU Terran who is vocal about perceived balance to a level you wouldn't expect from a progamer.
Absolutely agree. The idea that something "needs to be done" about Heromarine is laughable.
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On July 03 2019 22:48 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 22:26 Boggyb wrote:
Serious question. Since Blizzard is apparently making balance decisions based on perception and people on Reddit/Twitch screaming PROTOSS!!!!!!!, has there EVER been a time when people didn't complain about the race? I remember people complaining about PvZ back in early 2018 when Patchzerglett beat a two-time world champion off the back of a match up that was early Wings of Liberty bad. You were not here during the famous sad zealot club era? :D Protoss crying basically all the time until they found out about the archon toilet.
Then again when they removed the MSC and they ended up giving them stronger zealots and stalkers.
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On July 04 2019 06:27 LainRivers wrote:....
never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
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Northern Ireland25258 Posts
On July 04 2019 08:53 SHODAN wrote:never seen so much fluff and hyperbole in one post. nice
As opposed to Terran whine which consists of ‘you literally can’t spare a single unit to defend prisms’ as if it’s that tight
There’s plenty of optimisations Terrans can make, keeping initial cyclones if they survive in your main instead of occupying Xel’Naga towers or being bunched with your army etc
Current Robo tech PvZ which people are complaining about, and Zerg seem to be figuring out anyway came from Protoss being outright nerfed in the late game
Protoss had a smooth transition from opening Stargate into gate/Templar/Immortal into Carriers so they could play straight macro PvZ. Templars got nerfed so they can’t snipe infestors and vipers.
People moaned so Carriers got nerfed, that transition sucked and so they figured out a bunch of Robo-centric timings
Now, provided this patch goes through literally anything Robo-centric is outright worse in every way. Every timing or harass hits slightly slower
Protoss bullshit timings are now outright worse, but they have nothing to compensate for that in PvZ.
Your timings are all worse, all of them and you don’t have a legit macro style to play in the matchup beyond a certain level. Your harassment is all worse even the non-commital kind.
But oh I suppose they’re good changes because Terran whiners are placated.
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EPT
