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Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have PvsT ladder win rates for GM at 59.44%: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/bx1yuq/pvt_ladder_winrates_per_league_since_the_last/
Then you have PvsT win rates at 57.44% for Premier Tournaments this year: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/c7s2bv/2019_premier_tournament_winrates_updated/
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
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Is it just me or does anyone else get all hot and bothered by people typing "patch"..
"great patch" "awful patch"
..
this is the game developers getting YOU exited about the test "tab"..
.. this is in no way shape or form what they will do in their next patching..
.. ladder patching will be very different no?
tldr : just saying words matter
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On July 02 2019 19:05 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical.
soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018)
Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time.
Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019.
Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell.
Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history.
The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM
Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves
The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament.
but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
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On July 02 2019 20:18 BerserkSword wrote:
Why are you talking about 2018 in 2019?
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Blizzard can do that but I as a platin Protoss won't play that nonsense. Warp prism with this change will be a t3-unit and Protoss has the slowest army. These announcements are a joke.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2019 20:18 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 19:05 Xain0n wrote:On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well). The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical. soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018) Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time. Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019. Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell. Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history. The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament. but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real.
sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta(edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror  Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be.
Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously? 
Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad?
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On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999. Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament. Then you have PvsT ladder win rates for GM at 59.44%: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/bx1yuq/pvt_ladder_winrates_per_league_since_the_last/Then you have PvsT win rates at 57.44% for Premier Tournaments this year: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/c7s2bv/2019_premier_tournament_winrates_updated/Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
I dont know who that person is that posted those statistics, but the very first PvT winrate I looked at proved to be false.
That person lists GSL Season 2 PvT at 60.78% when in reality it is 53.3% (Source: Liquipedia)
For some reason WCS Spring is not included as well... probably because the PvT winrate there is sitting at 43.5% and that doesn't fit the narrative.
Here is a quick list of what the PvT winrates actually are for those tournaments:
GSL Season 1: 43.3%
IEM Katowice: 63%
WESG: 63.2%
Super Tournament 1: 47.1%
GSL Season 2: 53.3%
HSC: 58.2%
and if we include the WCS events of the year:
WCS Europe: 46.9%
WCS America: 50.8%
WCS Spring: 43.5%
I find it absolutely telling that whoever made that post, deliberately posted false information for the tournaments in which PvT was Terran favored, while leaving the other ones unchanged. Using the correct win rates does paint a different picture, doesn't it?
I am getting seriously tired of having to double check almost every statistic posted here, because almost all of them are false - and intentionally so, in many cases -, or carefully selected to fit a certain narrative.
7/8 Protoss in a Super Tournament quarterfinals is certainly an unusual incident... but not completely unthinkable. We have had GSL tournaments with 6/8 Terrans in the quarterfinals and 4/4 Terrans in the semifinals.
I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
On July 02 2019 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 20:18 BerserkSword wrote:On July 02 2019 19:05 Xain0n wrote:On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well). The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical. soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018) Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time. Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019. Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell. Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history. The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament. but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real. sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta (edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be. Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously? Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad?
Ah, yeah... the infamous "all Protoss players aren't good and the only reason why they make it far in tournaments is because of their race" rhetoric. Seriously, this is one of the most toxic narratives that shitposters like you have tried to build for years and it's honestly exhausting to be bombarded with this nonsense.
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On July 02 2019 21:23 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999. Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament. Then you have PvsT ladder win rates for GM at 59.44%: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/bx1yuq/pvt_ladder_winrates_per_league_since_the_last/Then you have PvsT win rates at 57.44% for Premier Tournaments this year: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/c7s2bv/2019_premier_tournament_winrates_updated/Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard. I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that.
The problem is that non-korean Protoss players that are not Neeb don't have the mechanics nor play the right style to abuse Protoss. If you don't take that in consideration, you will be left with noisy data that doesn't make sense, and the problem will manifest in international tournaments and KR only.
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I wonder if Stalkers could be buffed again with that warpprism change?
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Canada16699 Posts
On July 02 2019 07:22 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
In early Wings of Liberty, we increased the research duration of the Stimpack upgrade in order to temper the strength of 3-rax openers in TvP, which at the time was difficult for Protoss players to defend against, especially at lower levels. Fast forward to today,....
its really cool that Blizzard continues to pay attention to all levels of play.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2019 21:23 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999. Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament. Then you have PvsT ladder win rates for GM at 59.44%: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/bx1yuq/pvt_ladder_winrates_per_league_since_the_last/Then you have PvsT win rates at 57.44% for Premier Tournaments this year: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/c7s2bv/2019_premier_tournament_winrates_updated/Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard. I dont know who that person is that posted those statistics, but the very first PvT winrate I looked at proved to be false. That person lists GSL Season 2 PvT at 60.78% when in reality it is 53.3% ( Source: Liquipedia) For some reason WCS Spring is not included as well... probably because the PvT winrate there is sitting at 43.5% and that doesn't fit the narrative. Here is a quick list of what the PvT winrates actually are for those tournaments: GSL Season 1: 43.3% IEM Katowice: 63% WESG: 63.2% Super Tournament 1: 47.1% GSL Season 2: 53.3% HSC: 58.2% and if we include the WCS events of the year: WCS Europe: 46.9% WCS America: 50.8% WCS Spring: 43.5% I find it absolutely telling that whoever made that post, deliberately posted false information for the tournaments in which PvT was Terran favored, while leaving the other ones unchanged. Using the correct win rates does paint a different picture, doesn't it? I am getting seriously tired of having to double check almost every statistic posted here, because almost all of them are false - and intentionally so, in many cases -, or carefully selected to fit a certain narrative. 7/8 Protoss in a Super Tournament quarterfinals is certainly an unusual incident... but not completely unthinkable. We have had GSL tournaments with 6/8 Terrans in the quarterfinals and 4/4 Terrans in the semifinals. I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that. Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On July 02 2019 20:18 BerserkSword wrote:On July 02 2019 19:05 Xain0n wrote:On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well). The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical. soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018) Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time. Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019. Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell. Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history. The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament. but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real. sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta (edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be. Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously? Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad? Ah, yeah... the infamous "all Protoss players aren't good and the only reason why they make it far in tournaments is because of their race" rhetoric. Seriously, this is one of the most toxic narratives that shitposters like you have tried to build for years and it's honestly exhausting to be bombarded with this nonsense.
Don't twist my words into something I haven't written. You're the shitposter here doing this shenanigans, not me, you're the toxic one here - I'm just using your own words, so don't feel offended for not understanding my post while trying to offend me.
What I said is that herO, sOs, Zest are no longer the giants of SC2 and are worse players now(doesn't apply to sOs per se as he always was random). We're talking about time when we just had 2 tournaments heavily dominated by Protoss players and these didn't deliver any reasonable success(except the RO4 of sOs at ST). Which would suggest they're bad ATM and other Protoss are better(e.g. Trap in Code S). That's not a bad thing to say. People change, players have their bad times. Zest may rise again, maybe even herO. But using these players NOW of all times, is not exactly right choice of players.
...
(edit> and again, I am comparing them to their old selfs which sets the bar way too high, but RO16 COde S, RO16 ST, RO8 Code S isn't exactly where the old herO would have ended, and while RO4 IEM is nice, let's face it, he would have been in the finals, it's not fair to herO but he used to be a monster)
On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
GSL Code S 2019 Season 2 race ratio - (P/T/Z) 12/9/11 shifter into 8/4/4. Again I have to ask if you're trolling or just don't watch the SC2 because RO32 looked very fine until it was played.
So if you say that now it's fine - well we can't say, can we? Based on the last season we should end with 8 P 5 T 3 Z ratio (75 % success rate for Protoss, roughly 50 % for T/Z). But since I cannot predict the future and when(if) the patch hits the game I cannot tell how this will end up. Obviously you're the one here operating with this ratio so tell me how fine it is and how fine it was during the Season 2 where we had almost perfect race ratio which ended in something not very pleasant.
There's a reason why many people say the true Code S starts with RO16. Maybe T will rise again, maybe not, this change isn't in and there are still some trong Protoss players and strong anti-terran maps...
On July 02 2019 18:45 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
I think I will give him the Xainon treatment and start to ignore him.
User was warned for this post.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
Hm, couldn’t the prism upgrade also upgrade pylon warp ins too? May as well
I guess it’s just at the testing stage, I like the prism changes in theory, I think Protoss has too much flexibility in transitioning from a poke to an all-in that’s very difficult to read and respond to sometimes.
It’s quite a big change by itself though, never mind throwing in other changes at the same time.
Maybe the community wouldn’t respond well I don’t know, I’d rather they test and tweak things in isolation, or a few at a time and see how that shakes up
It’s a huge change given how Protoss is currently played, every single timing will be less sharp, seems too much to figure out other things if you’re throwing up in other Terran buffs at the same time.
My instinct right now is that TvP is in pretty decent shape at the highest level, and ZvP it seems players are getting to grips with all those Robo-centric builds, and Protoss will end up over-nerfed by balance patches after players have already found good solutions.
I do have my issues with the prism and do want to see some tweaks with it, but it’s almost as integral to harass and reinforcement to Protoss as Queens are to Zergs, so a delicate touch is required IMO
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Serral will never lose again
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On July 02 2019 21:33 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 21:23 Nezgar wrote:On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999. Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament. Then you have PvsT ladder win rates for GM at 59.44%: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/bx1yuq/pvt_ladder_winrates_per_league_since_the_last/Then you have PvsT win rates at 57.44% for Premier Tournaments this year: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/c7s2bv/2019_premier_tournament_winrates_updated/Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard. I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that. The problem is that non-korean Protoss players that are not Neeb don't have the mechanics nor play the right style to abuse Protoss. If you don't take that in consideration, you will be left with noisy data that doesn't make sense, and the problem will manifest in international tournaments and KR only.
That is an interesting way to spin it.
When Byun and then later Gumiho, Maru and other Terrans founds success while a lot of foreign Terrans struggled, a common notion in this forum was that looking at the best Terrans in the world is not an indicator of the race being too strong and that those players are only winning because they are literal gods and that Terrans need a buff.
Now you tell me that because only the best koreans Protosses and Neeb know how to properly play Protoss, we should ignore the other data?
I guess we need a "just play like Classic" meme...
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On July 02 2019 22:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 21:23 Nezgar wrote:On July 02 2019 19:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999. Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament. Then you have PvsT ladder win rates for GM at 59.44%: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/bx1yuq/pvt_ladder_winrates_per_league_since_the_last/Then you have PvsT win rates at 57.44% for Premier Tournaments this year: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/c7s2bv/2019_premier_tournament_winrates_updated/Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard. I dont know who that person is that posted those statistics, but the very first PvT winrate I looked at proved to be false. That person lists GSL Season 2 PvT at 60.78% when in reality it is 53.3% ( Source: Liquipedia) For some reason WCS Spring is not included as well... probably because the PvT winrate there is sitting at 43.5% and that doesn't fit the narrative. Here is a quick list of what the PvT winrates actually are for those tournaments: GSL Season 1: 43.3% IEM Katowice: 63% WESG: 63.2% Super Tournament 1: 47.1% GSL Season 2: 53.3% HSC: 58.2% and if we include the WCS events of the year: WCS Europe: 46.9% WCS America: 50.8% WCS Spring: 43.5% I find it absolutely telling that whoever made that post, deliberately posted false information for the tournaments in which PvT was Terran favored, while leaving the other ones unchanged. Using the correct win rates does paint a different picture, doesn't it? I am getting seriously tired of having to double check almost every statistic posted here, because almost all of them are false - and intentionally so, in many cases -, or carefully selected to fit a certain narrative. 7/8 Protoss in a Super Tournament quarterfinals is certainly an unusual incident... but not completely unthinkable. We have had GSL tournaments with 6/8 Terrans in the quarterfinals and 4/4 Terrans in the semifinals. I don't quite understand what the obsession with focusing on korean-only tournaments is... especially in 2019. Unless you want to balance exclusively for korean tournaments. And I cannot see why anyone would want that. On July 02 2019 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On July 02 2019 20:18 BerserkSword wrote:On July 02 2019 19:05 Xain0n wrote:On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well). The idea of Protoss boogeyman is comical. soO (Zerg) breaks his legendary curse of being a Kong by running train against some of the most elite protoss players of all time (3-0 Zest, 3-1 herO, 4-2 stats, the best protoss player of 2018) Maru (Terran) cements his position as the greatest Code S player of all time at the expense of 3 protoss players, Dear, Trap, and Classic aka best protoss player on the planet at the time. Dark (Zerg) breaks through to true ascendancy by finally winning a Code S title (first Zerg player in LotV to do so) after years of falling short. He does so at the expense of 3 protoss players in the playoffs, including the Protoss player who beat Innovation and Classic, the best of their races in 2019. Innovation (Terran) gets another huge premier tournament championship after a 2018 dry spell. Protoss players in Europe are getting slaughtered in premier tournaments. Neeb loses to Special (Terran) for like the first time in history. The best Protoss player of 2018, stats, is barely able to compete in premier tournaments, except for IEM Ridiculously talented protoss players ike Zest, sOs, and herO are punching bags…these protoss players who have won several prestigious tournaments among themselves The Protoss hope, Classic, a 28 year old who is desperately trying to make some magic happen in 2019 before he has to serve in the military, wins a Super Tournament. but yea the anti-protoss whine squad will arbitrarily point to a couple of tournaments' Ro8 and ignore everything else. the delusion is real. sOs plays for a longer time now badly. He's not good and his power usually is when he's playing the meta (edit> what I mean is that sOs strength lies in playing the "anti-meta", instead of playing the player he plays the meta... ) which he lately couldn't or refused. Listen to his post game interview against ByuN(?) where he used the blink DT harass - he got bored in the game so he played this to be entertained. herO is bad for over a year now(in comparison of CJ herO). Neeb lost to Terran who managed to get to the RO8 of Blizzcon while Neeb didn't. Oh the shame, oh the horror Terrans can't be that good in WCS? And even if mjr Special would be worse - random wins happens, the biggest example of them all - MeomaikA. Zest isn't playing anything spectacular from his GSL finals and even then people mentioned that he had bracket luck and are expecting a slaughter because he wasn't the "Zest is best" he used to be. Yeah, Stats has fallen off, the question is why, because 2018 -> 2019 didn't change that much considering how many Protoss players got good. Think about it, we're talking about the most Protoss dominated tournament EVER in the history of Korean Starcraft and you are listing names of Protoss players who are not good. Seriously? Don't stick to the history that much, if they're not good when the Protoss presence in the tournaments is changing history, maybe they're genuinly bad? Ah, yeah... the infamous "all Protoss players aren't good and the only reason why they make it far in tournaments is because of their race" rhetoric. Seriously, this is one of the most toxic narratives that shitposters like you have tried to build for years and it's honestly exhausting to be bombarded with this nonsense. Don't twist my words into something I haven't written. You're the shitposter here doing this shenanigans, not me, you're the toxic one here - I'm just using your own words, so don't feel offended for not understanding my post while trying to offend me. What I said is that herO, sOs, Zest are no longer the giants of SC2 and are worse players now(doesn't apply to sOs per se as he always was random). We're talking about time when we just had 2 tournaments heavily dominated by Protoss players and these didn't deliver any reasonable success(except the RO4 of sOs at ST). Which would suggest they're bad ATM and other Protoss are better(e.g. Trap in Code S). That's not a bad thing to say. People change, players have their bad times. Zest may rise again, maybe even herO. But using these players NOW of all times, is not exactly right choice of players. ... Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. GSL Code S 2019 Season 2 race ratio - (P/T/Z) 12/9/11 shifter into 8/4/4. Again I have to ask if you're trolling or just don't watch the SC2 because RO32 looked very fine until it was played. So if you say that now it's fine - well we can't say, can we? Based on the last season we should end with 8 P 5 T 3 Z ratio (75 % success rate for Protoss, roughly 50 % for T/Z). But since I cannot predict the future and when(if) the patch hits the game I cannot tell how this will end up. Obviously you're the one here operating with this ratio so tell me how fine it is and how fine it was during the Season 2 where we had almost perfect race ratio which ended in something not very pleasant. There's a reason why many people say the true Code S starts with RO16. Maybe T will rise again, maybe not, this change isn't in and there are still some trong Protoss players and strong anti-terran maps... Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:45 Z3nith wrote:On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance. I think I will give him the Xainon treatment and start to ignore him.
It's a pity you don't ignore yourself instead, your senselessness wouldn't constantly haunt us.
If you want to see Protoss being overpowered look at the first half of 2014, in 2019 korean Protoss were ahead of the meta for a couple of months; while it was happening, it could have been that they were effectively op, but looking back it just took a while for Zerg to figure them out(Blizzard itself doesn't say they were clearly too strong of a race).
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On July 02 2019 08:44 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 07:53 Charoisaur wrote:
Don't like the Warpprism nerf at all. prisms are one of the most fun units in the game and promote active gameplay.
They should be good. Disappointing they listen to whining Zerg players There's nothing fun or active about fast prism warp-ins and that's what they're nerfing. Prism juggling stays exactly the same.
Yes there is. A warpprism warping in 10 Zealots in the opponents main promotes active action-packed play and now this is nerfed.
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prism nerf is years overdue, regardless of balance.
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On July 02 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hm, couldn’t the prism upgrade also upgrade pylon warp ins too? May as well
I guess it’s just at the testing stage, I like the prism changes in theory, I think Protoss has too much flexibility in transitioning from a poke to an all-in that’s very difficult to read and respond to sometimes.
It’s quite a big change by itself though, never mind throwing in other changes at the same time.
Maybe the community wouldn’t respond well I don’t know, I’d rather they test and tweak things in isolation, or a few at a time and see how that shakes up
It’s a huge change given how Protoss is currently played, every single timing will be less sharp, seems too much to figure out other things if you’re throwing up in other Terran buffs at the same time.
My instinct right now is that TvP is in pretty decent shape at the highest level, and ZvP it seems players are getting to grips with all those Robo-centric builds, and Protoss will end up over-nerfed by balance patches after players have already found good solutions.
I do have my issues with the prism and do want to see some tweaks with it, but it’s almost as integral to harass and reinforcement to Protoss as Queens are to Zergs, so a delicate touch is required IMO
And Queens were nerfed in last patch as I recall, weren't they?
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probably good changes for pro level but on casual ladder stim timings and ghosts are going to absolutely crush face lol
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Nice, let's test the changes. Very interesting that there is a different set of changes as well.
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EPT
