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On July 02 2019 17:24 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:15 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:06 Nars_ wrote:
"Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun" My thoughts exactly. "Some whiners say protoss is OP, but there is no evidence to that - winratios are negative for toss, they haven't won a single tournament in 2 years, hm... it's a controvercy! We have no clue what's going on, but if we remain silent, everyone will think we are not doing our job, we will get fired, sooo.... lets nerf the fuck out of protoss". "L" stands for logics. 8 Protoss players in RO16 (Code S S2) 7 Protoss players in RO8 (GSL ST1) Several 2nd places of Protosses(Code S: 2018 S1, 2018 S2, 2019 S1, 2019 S2; 2018 GSL ST2; IEM: Katowice 2019, PyeongChang 2018, Katowice 2018; Blizzcon 2018) NO PROTOSS CHAMPION IN 2 YEARS!$!$!$ Classic just won GSL ST1? Stats won the 2018 GSL ST1? Classic won the 2018 GSL ST2?How about WCS? Showtime, MaNa, Has, Neeb? ( Neeb won WCS America IIRC) Do you watch SC2 or just complain?
Hey, chill. 2 years was a clear over exaggeration. The point is: you need undeniable evidence to justify the nerfs. Last 5 GSLs: 4 terran/1 zerg. Last 4 WCS: 4 zergs. Blizzcon: zerg. Who in the sane state of his mind would call protoss OP in that scenario? Only retards.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 02 2019 17:29 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:25 Harris1st wrote:
I like most changes but the stim timing seems overkill.
Bio All-In, all day, every day Well, if this change moves PvT from auto 3rd to "let's do 2 base dance, baby, like it's hots again" - I will probably like it 
IF it'll be a dance, sure go for it. But Protoss has to expand some time before Terran or the game is over.
Also, now that I caught up with most of the replies: Pls nerf the free nydus spam. Either make it cost more or add a cooldown
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Numbers, wins, championships means nothing in this sence who is op or not... like protoss might not be strong (it is bug okay...) it's about how flustrating it is to play against...
Terran's flat out hates it to guts
Zergs dont mind if they survive into late game
its not fun to watch 10 units being warped in your base in 4 seconds killing ur entire base and half of your army while even stronger army pushes towards the other base
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2019 17:31 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:24 deacon.frost wrote:On July 02 2019 17:15 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:06 Nars_ wrote:
"Yeah we don't really think Protoss is overpowered, players talk about different stages of the game and all. Here guys - massive nerfs to Protoss and big boost to Terran have fun" My thoughts exactly. "Some whiners say protoss is OP, but there is no evidence to that - winratios are negative for toss, they haven't won a single tournament in 2 years, hm... it's a controvercy! We have no clue what's going on, but if we remain silent, everyone will think we are not doing our job, we will get fired, sooo.... lets nerf the fuck out of protoss". "L" stands for logics. 8 Protoss players in RO16 (Code S S2) 7 Protoss players in RO8 (GSL ST1) Several 2nd places of Protosses(Code S: 2018 S1, 2018 S2, 2019 S1, 2019 S2; 2018 GSL ST2; IEM: Katowice 2019, PyeongChang 2018, Katowice 2018; Blizzcon 2018) NO PROTOSS CHAMPION IN 2 YEARS!$!$!$ Classic just won GSL ST1? Stats won the 2018 GSL ST1? Classic won the 2018 GSL ST2?How about WCS? Showtime, MaNa, Has, Neeb? ( Neeb won WCS America IIRC) Do you watch SC2 or just complain? Hey, chill. 2 years was a clear over exaggeration. The point is: you need undeniable evidence to justify the nerfs. Last 5 GSLs: 4 terran/1 zerg. Last 4 WCS: 4 zergs. Blizzcon: zerg. Who in the sane state of his mind would call protoss OP in that scenario? Only retards.
Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss".
And again, 8 P in RO16, 7 P in RO8 in 2 different tournaments... No problems at all, Protoss players are just better 
Edit> yes, by your definition I am a retard. It's nice to be appreciated
(BTW I am a Protoss player)
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Lmao 16/9 times bigger EMP radius
Why try 1.75 first when you can just go to 2 straight away
Odd change though - didnt ghosts already have the upper hand vs HT?
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On July 02 2019 17:36 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
Numbers, wins, championships means nothing in this sence who is op or not... like protoss might not be strong (it is bug okay...) it's about how flustrating it is to play against...
Terran's flat out hates it to guts
Zergs dont mind if they survive into late game
its not fun to watch 10 units being warped in your base in 4 seconds killing ur entire base and half of your army while even stronger army pushes towards the other base
"Numbers mean shit, i don't care, it's just not fun to watch and frustrating to play". Reasonable argumentation strikes again.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2019 17:43 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:36 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
Numbers, wins, championships means nothing in this sence who is op or not... like protoss might not be strong (it is bug okay...) it's about how flustrating it is to play against...
Terran's flat out hates it to guts
Zergs dont mind if they survive into late game
its not fun to watch 10 units being warped in your base in 4 seconds killing ur entire base and half of your army while even stronger army pushes towards the other base "Numbers mean shit, i don't care, it's just not fun to watch and frustrating to play". Reasonable argumentation strikes again.
Many people play the game for fun, not for numbers. So balancing the game around fun first and numbers later may actually keep playesr playing the game longer.
But some play this game to get numbers. And ignore some numbers they don't like. Example - you.
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Protoss might as well quit playing the game now（i'm zerg main)
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On July 02 2019 17:38 deacon.frost wrote:
Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss".
No, it does not.
You clearly missed the point. I'll repeat. Undeniable proof. Give it to me. Protoss missed all meaningful titles last year. Took some irrelevant weekend tournaments, some 2nd places. How on earth do you interpret that as Protoss OP? It looks like you are just obsessed with buffing and nerfing something, chill. This whole situation you described clearly illustrates that nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed (exept for nydus ofc :3).
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Any warp-prism nerv is a good change, it's way too powerful at the moment!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2019 17:56 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:38 deacon.frost wrote:
Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss". No, it does not. You clearly missed the point. I'll repeat. Undeniable proof. Give it to me. Protoss missed all meaningful titles last year. Took some irrelevant weekend tournaments, some 2nd places. How on earth do you interpret that as Protoss OP? It looks like you are just obsessed with buffing and nerfing something, chill. This whole situation you described clearly illustrates that nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed (exept for nydus ofc :3).
Are you just trolling or not reading at all?
What's with the obsession of tournament victories.
You wrote there were no champions - there were, you lied.
You write undeniable proof - protoss managed to completely take over 2 different competitions, they are taking 2nd places everywhere, yet this is not enough because "they didn't win the tournaments I selected as important". Doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Zerg were not(Code S), doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Terrans were not(WCS, Blizzcon, IEM).
And on the top of that you claim that everybody who supports the change is a retard and then you try to "chill" me?
Go troll somewhere else, please.
Edit> Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
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Protoss will be fucked.
Robo bay and the upgrade will be mandatory now for any attack.
I agree with the terran changes, terran will be stronger early and late game vs p and z.
The slight buffs to carriers and also terran late aie by nerfing infested terrans is great too.
But from my recent games to me it seems that zerg actually has way more aggressive options early game, the protoss options being only variations of an immo push or adepts, which are both mostly all-ins.
The zerg however can punish and insta kill a protoss early game if he doesn't wall perfectly at all times and doesn't scout perfectly to identify ling floods, ling+bane, roach ravager, roach ling or nydus variations. Early game protoss units just lose vs zerg and mid game only works with force fields and immo. Late game you are dead if you don't have enough AoE.
With this protoss will be fucked in zvp. Protoss needs some early game buff then. Gateway units are just too shitty if you don't even have the offensive warp in advantage.
The Balance team is getting better and better overall though.
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On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Many people play the game for fun, not for numbers. So balancing the game around fun first and numbers later may actually keep playesr playing the game longer.
No, people play to win. And when they lose they try to justify their lack of skill (intead of getting better). If there is no statistics to back this up, they appeal to "not having fun". Because there HAS to be a reason for them to lose (besides not being good enough). Ofc, loosing is not fun, i can agree with that.
On July 02 2019 18:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:56 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:38 deacon.frost wrote:
Oh, so now you will ignore the GSL ST because they don't fit your narrative? How about you look at those 2nd places I mentioned. And we will ignore the WCS NA because let's ignore Neeb. Out of 5 GSLs there have been 4 Protoss in the finals, 1 Zerg in the finals and 5 Terrans. If we can tell anything out of these it's that Zerg is heavily underpowered. If we take the WCS into account, we can see it has been 5 Z and 3 P, if anything - Terran is heavily underpowered. Blizzcon was ZvP, Terran needs heavy buffs.
Actually your selection of games isn't very helpful as it seems Zerg needs serious buffs in Korea, serious Nerfs in WCS, Protoss needs nerfs in Korea and in WCS(although they can win only GSL ST for some reason, Kong race) and Terran is fine in Korea and needs huge buffs in WCS.
All in all it fits the "nerf Protoss". No, it does not. You clearly missed the point. I'll repeat. Undeniable proof. Give it to me. Protoss missed all meaningful titles last year. Took some irrelevant weekend tournaments, some 2nd places. How on earth do you interpret that as Protoss OP? It looks like you are just obsessed with buffing and nerfing something, chill. This whole situation you described clearly illustrates that nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed (exept for nydus ofc :3). Are you just trolling or not reading at all? What's with the obsession of tournament victories. You wrote there were no champions - there were, you lied. You write undeniable proof - protoss managed to completely take over 2 different competitions, they are taking 2nd places everywhere, yet this is not enough because "they didn't win the tournaments I selected as important". Doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Zerg were not(Code S), doesn't change the fact they were in the finals while Terrans were not(WCS, Blizzcon, IEM). And on the top of that you claim that everybody who supports the change is a retard and then you try to "chill" me? Go troll somewhere else, please.
What can i reply to calling 5 consecutive GSL/WCS and Blizzcon titles unimportant? Yes, i selected them, because there is nothing else to select from.
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On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran.
The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof...
edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
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On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
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On July 02 2019 18:45 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance.
Well, if you put it that way. That's just another level of argumentation. Now it's "balance patch, but not really about balance". I guess i need some time to think of a decent argument to counter.
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On July 02 2019 18:51 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:45 Z3nith wrote:On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that. Also in this very patch the blizzard team acknowledged that Protoss winrates haven't been massively different from before. This change isn't about balance so stop trying to make it about balance. Well, if you put it that way. That's just another level of argumentation. Now it's "balance patch, but not really about balance". I guess i need some time to think of a decent argument to counter.
I'd say this patch is less balance and more design from the way they are saying. They want more macro late games and are taking the steps to implement that.
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So they didnt address terran late game problems at all, except "use ghost to counter there op late game casters", Basically terran is still stuck on using inferior T2 army + ghost versus T3...
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The 21 sec decrease of the stim is really scary, I think it's totally unnecessary.
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On July 02 2019 18:23 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 17:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Also why taking into discussion the balance state of 2018. This is a response to the GSL ST1 (7/8 in RO8 were Protoss) and GSL Code S S2(8 out of 16 in RO16 were Protoss). Partially of IEM - 1 out of 12 was Terran. The ongoing GSL includes 12 terrans and 12 protoss after the qualifiers. Care to elaborate? Remember, we need undeniable proof... edit: I would appreciate aligulac current balance report comments as well. Besides it not being fun ofc. I already got that.
Protoss warp in pushes/all in dominated korean leagues in the last two months most likely because Protoss players were ahead of the meta since, as Blizzard itself says, global win ratio and WCS were fine(actually, Protoss kind of underperformed in WCS this year); recently, Zerg seemed to better understand the matchup so that Dark dispatched three Protoss in order to win the first Code S in four year for Zerg in a time in which everyone is screaming that Protoss is op(we could see Zerg are adjusting in HSC as well).
What is true is that PvZ especially has been a challenge for Zerg to survive long enough to a strong midgame aggression resulting to a very likely autowin later in the game, that's not good and Blizzard correctly attempted to fix that(while I'm not sure the numbers they modified will be enough to do that).
The claims that Protoss was broken in 2018 were just laughable, reaching many finals and losing almost every one of them shows that the race is competitive, no more; it's just crybabies(and some progamer, as well) who think the fundamental mechanics of Protoss are unfair and hate accordingly.
Terran buffs kind of surprise me, last year they underperformed(except for Maru) but this year they performed decently if we take out Katowice; Terran tears are indeed overflowing and the perceived win ratio in TvP appears to be close to 20%, so that may have forced Blizzard's hand.
Even so, stim seems too generic of a buff to affect midgame TvP only and Terran lategame didn't really need help considering they are even or slightly favored against the "super broken" Zerg late with Infestor being already nerfed. Maybe Blizzard has to see Terran realiably win Code S to keep the tournament founded, I hope that's why.
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EPT
