On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. ...
k,
if you know that for sure, than good for you
i for one am playing and watching this game from the very beginning, and i dont see top players doing that amount of stupid things and bad macro nowadays,
i rewatched the mvp comeback against inno the other day, because it was mentioned in an article here, and it was simply painfull to watch, innovation today would never throw this hard
but thats just my personal opinion, if you think you know better than feel free to ignore my obviously wrong views i'd say
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. ...
k,
if you know that for sure, than good for you
i for one am playing and watching this game from the very beginning, and i dont see top players doing that amount of stupid things and bad macro nowadays,
i rewatched the mvp comeback against inno the other day, because it was mentioned in an article here, and it was simply painfull to watch, innovation today would never throw this hard
but thats just my personal opinion, if you think you know better than feel free to ignore my obviously wrong views i'd say
I have not said I know for sure it isn't better, I only said that saying it is is hard to argue by actual evidence, so if you present it as the starting point for a conclusion, the reliability of such conclusion is dubious.
There are multiple factors that make it hard to judge purely from watching gameplay - for example, how much of the apparent improvement is knowledge that can be easily shared and thus would be available to any player who would have stayed active? Also the game changed a lot in terms of it being now more multitask oriented, which looks impressive but it possible tests different skills than a WoL game did.
Small correction needed in the article: When talking about soO, it states that he had 2 final appearances in 2016, when they were in 2017.
On topic, GSL specific players I would rate Inno #1, Maru #2, MVP #3. Inno has been the best and among the best for a long time and winning championships in the most competitive eras. Maru is almost the same but didn't win any GSL championships until now, with a lower competition, but he was also among the best for a long time in very competitive eras. MVP dominated hard early on when there was strong competition, but the metagame / game knowledge of competitors was not as high (which is an argument for rating MVP higher) but he had a very narrow peak. There were also many more GSL opportunities when MVP was competing compared to 2013+ (when Inno started to get on top).
On October 08 2018 19:28 fronkschnonk wrote: As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider: - 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat - 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat - triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness. From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague. He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again. Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
Did you just say Maru is the only player with 2 periods of dominance? Life famously had 2 and Innovation had like 5.
The question is, how long has such a period to be to be called like that. Life peaked twice very hard within a quite narrow timeframe. The first was september to december in 2012 in which he also underperformed hardly at IPL and at GSL S5 - so it's questionable if you really want to call this "period of dominance" - a time in wich Sniper and Leenock contested his position as the best zerg. The 2nd period was an actual period of dominance with him being on top of almost everything and not showing any bad results from Blizzcon 2014 to GSL S1 2015. For Innovation I really can't see any real period of dominance before 2017. Winning an isolated GSL (which is great) is no "period of dominance" to me.
On October 09 2018 01:37 MrMischelito wrote: as much as I acknowledge the incredible feats of all these champions... I thought we decided to STOP debating the question Greatest Of All Time!
This question will never die! Everyone loves to argue over their favourite players ^_^
I'd like to read (in a loooong article with lots of graphs, gifs and VODs!!!) about why you think this great success of Maru came only now and not at any other point in time (past or future).
On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote: One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
I don't think it does, the game was less mature, but there was a shit ton more money and competition all around.
I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
The problem with Mvp is that people rate him more on what he could have been then what he was, he was only the undisputed best player for a year in 2011 where he won around half of the tournament he entered (which is amazing don't get me wrong), he also had a great 2012 but it was a worst year compare to let say INnovation 2017, SoO 2014 or on par with Zest 2014 or MC 2011 or 2012. So was Mvp 2011 year the most dominant year by a programmer, well there's a strong case to make for it at least, but it's easy to assume that he would have retain that form without injury but the truth is that we don't have a clue. Mvp had the luxury of "quitting" while he was on top, of at least getting excuse for his lackluster last year and a half, while most other player goes through ups and down, and on top of that almost all of the player of his era ended their career with middling result, we got to watch guys like MarineKing, HerO, Nestea, Squirtle, MC ect.. get mixed results and getting eliminate early in tournaments for years well after they were past their prime, before they decided to trow the towel.
We only remember Mvp when he was winning but if he had played 4 more year in his 2013-2014 form and won only like 1 of 2 tournament in those years we would be a lot more critical of him. The same way if HerO had retired mid 2014 we would probably think of him as one of the very top tier protoss player of all time, but after we got to watch him for 3 painfully mediocre years it's hard to still consider him one of the game great.
Not saying that Mvp isn't the greatest, or that he wouldn't have been even better if given the chance without is injury, but more the fact that Mvp was never given the chance to fail, we always got to excuse his failure (with legitimate reason but there is no reason to be sure that we wouldn't have fail anyway).
That's a very good point. So few players have the "luxury" of leaving at their peak
On October 09 2018 01:37 MrMischelito wrote: as much as I acknowledge the incredible feats of all these champions... I thought we decided to STOP debating the question Greatest Of All Time!
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
Probably the same way as people miss water being wet again
To be fair, we make fun if mizenhauer for this, but truth is that Soo's finals sequence is totally unparalleled and if we lived in a little less champion-focused world, he would probably be celebrated much more than he is.
Although I understand the reluctance to discuss Life, his Royal Road deserves to be mentioned in terms of perspectives through which we evaluate GSL achievements.
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
Probably the same way as people miss water being wet again
To be fair, we make fun if mizenhauer for this, but truth is that Soo's finals sequence is totally unparalleled and if we lived in a little less champion-focused world, he would probably be celebrated much more than he is.
He was celebrated quite a lot back in those days IIRC. It was several times mentioned that his consistency is insane. At the same time Maru was godlike Terran who couldn't get into the winning mood, but he was almost always in the top8 even when Terran wasn't the best race to play(looking at Innovation). While soO acomplished something amazing it was still "just" 4 second places. It's just not enough in the long term because championship is what really matters in the long run.
I didn't see any mention of that fact it took 8 years for Maru to actually win a GSL. While others may have won them spread across years, they overall played for less time than Maru.
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
Maru beated Serral 3-0 in the weekend tournament with $200K winning price. Serral had record 18-0 against other foreigners before facing Maru which was still dominant and the only undefeated record in a tournament in foreign scene 2018.
And I think ByuN achievement in 2016 was unbelievable story cuz it was Kespa era and ByuN was a pure one man army and won GSL and blizzcon.
And also it is well known in Korea that Maru is kinda lazy at practicing in non top tier tournaments.
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
Maru beated Serral 3-0 in the weekend tournament with $200K winning price
And I think ByuN achievement in 2016 was more unbelievable cuz it was Kespa era and ByuN was a pure one man army and won GSL and blizzcon.
At Blizzcon ByuN was actually the only one with a team.
On October 09 2018 21:06 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
On October 08 2018 22:06 Dave4 wrote:
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
Maru beated Serral 3-0 in the weekend tournament with $200K winning price
And I think ByuN achievement in 2016 was more unbelievable cuz it was Kespa era and ByuN was a pure one man army and won GSL and blizzcon.
At Blizzcon ByuN was actually the only one with a team.
Not true since Kespa teams provided team house for blizzcon players, and Dark’s SKT didn’t provide for it. And ByuN team had who??
EPT
