The 2018 season of GSL has ended and it's still just sinking in. Maru is the first player ever to win Korean StarCraft II's most coveted title three times running. Winning three straight GSL Code S championships might be the most incredible accomplishment in StarCraft II history.
With Maru's victory have come the inevitable proclamations. Greatest of all time. StarCraft II's first bonjwa. Lofty titles for sure, and maybe even deserved given the magnitude of his achievement.
...but that's a conversation for another day. For now, it's time to think about how Maru's 2018 stacks up against eight years of GSL history, against the illustrious predecessors who made the GSL Code S championship so prestigious in the first place.
Started in August of 2010, the first Global StarCraft II League featured a ragtag group of ex-Brood War pros, foreigners, and online-gosus hoping to make a name for themselves in an entirely new esports scene. Brick by brick, a rich history was built upon that humble foundation. Eight years later, the GSL stands proudly as the most important tournament in competitive StarCraft II.
The players are at the center of GSL's history. We still tell tales about the first pioneers such as FruitDealer, MarineKing, and Nestea. Heart of the Swarm saw the KeSPA invasion begin in full force, with INnoVation and Zest raising the standards of excellence. Legacy of the Void rewarded the patient, with veterans such as Stats and GuMiho lifting the trophy at long last.
Hundreds of players have passed through the GSL, but two players stand out as truly unforgettable, with legacies that are nearly as imposing as the GSL itself.
The first is Mvp, the greatest player of Wings of Liberty, and still regarded by many as the greatest player of all time. The early GSL (and StarCraft II for that matter) was rough around the edges, especially when compared to the 12-year-old professional Brood War scene. A handful of players worked overtime to build the GSL's legitimacy. MKP brought his micro skills, and Nestea offered up his strategic brilliance, but it was Mvp who gave the game the all-around solidity and macro play expected from a mature RTS.
In 2011, Mvp won MLG Anaheim, the Battle.net World Championship, and WCG, but the GSL was his true domain. That year, he won two GSL Code S tournaments (defeating MarineKing and TOP), the inaugural GSL World Championship (the predecessor to GSL vs. The World), and took second place in yet another Code S finals (losing to MMA).
Those victories may have made Mvp a household name, but it was his fourth and final GSL victory in 2012 that made him a legend. His Code S Season 2 finals against Squirtle is perhaps the most memorable and iconic series in StarCraft II history, featuring two of its most famous clutch plays in both the late-game and early-game. Four GSL championships was an unprecedented achievement—just two years into the GSL, StarCraft II fans already knew they had witnessed something special. And indeed, history would bear them out, as it would take five years before anyone matched Mvp's GSL title count (INnoVation in 2017).
Mvp reached another GSL finals in Code S Season 4 of 2012, where he ultimately lost to Life. But the very fact that GomTV prepared a special G5L trophy to commemorate a potential fifth championship—akin to how OnGameNet prepared the Golden Mouse in anticipation of Boxer's third Starleague championship—affirmed Mvp's mythic status in the GSL.
Mvp's career would famously be cut short by injury, and it was fitting that his final GSL match came against soO—a then-unheralded Zerg who would replace Mvp as the GSL's most iconic player. soO reached the Code S finals for the first time at the end of 2013, the first in four consecutive finals appearances. soO wound up losing every single one of those matches.
Such a streak was, in a word, unfathomable. Unfathomable in the consistent excellence required to reach four finals in a row—back-to-back was the best anyone had managed before. Unfathomable in the sheer depth of heartbreak reached by losing them all. But that tragedy was also why soO has left such an indelible impact on the GSL. soO vs the finals became the greatest rivalry in Korea and the leading narrative in every season of GSL in which he participated. He later added two more final appearances in 2016, tying Mvp for six GSL appearances. Without winning a single championship, soO became GSL's biggest story—and star—in two separate years.
As GSL commentator Hwang "GISADO" Yeong Jae said in soO’s 2017 WCS Signature Series, “He’s a symbol. An irreplaceable, incomparable representation of second place.” soO’s constant search for redemption and that elusive championship that made him GSL's heart and soul. For the first time, the GSL had something close to a solo protagonist.
How could anyone rival Mvp and soO for relevance? One would have to accomplish something no one else had ever done before.
Will you remember his smile, or something else? Photo: Helena Kristiansson
Common sense tells us that it should be impossible to win three straight Code S titles. It was ludicrous enough when soO even reached the finals of every Code S season in 2014. But to actually win every Code S in a year? Impossible.
And so, when Maru beat Stats in Code S Season 1 earlier this year, we celebrated it as a long awaited title for one of the most exciting players in the game. It wasn’t until he swept Zest in Season 2 that we started to rethink StarCraft II's reality. TY proved to be a stern test in Season 3, but Maru could not be denied. He once more kissed the trophy, this time not as anyone’s peer, but on a tier all to himself.
Maru’s 2018 is without a doubt the most dominant single year in GSL history. Only one other player had even won two Code S titles back to back: Nestea, way back in 2011 when there were seven Code S tournaments in a single year.
Another testament to Maru's dominance in 2018 the fact that he earned one of the all-time great GSL resumes in a single year. Mvp, who played in the 2011-2012 era that hosted twelve Code S tournaments, still took seventeen months to win three, non-consecutive Code S titles. INnoVation, one of GSL's most persistent champions, won his three over the course of roughly six years. The exceptional results don’t even tell the whole tale—the manner in which Maru completely outclassed the best players in Korea, and the way he constantly broke and rebuilt the meta further enhanced his legendary 2018 GSL run.
If one were to measure players by their ability to dominate at their absolute peak, Maru would be the undisputed, greatest player in GSL history. On the other hand, there's more to greatness than that.
Yes, the plaudit that will follow Maru around forever more is 'three Code S titles in one year.' But an equally valid way of framing it is 'three Code S titles in eight years.' Playing in the GSL since the very first open in 2010, Maru delivered seven years of underachievement before ever reaching the finals. Though he made numerous Code S semifinal appearances in HotS and LotV, he never won more than two maps in any of those series.
Tell me, is a medal truly worth its weight in gold?
GSL's history is replete with ironmen who might scoff at this Maru-come-lately. Mvp’s five Code S finals were spread out over the course of two years. soO finalled in 2013, 2014 and 2017. MC, INnoVation, Zest, and Life have all reached more than one Code S final over the span of multiple years. Throw in the 'lesser' GSL titles (Global Championship/GSL vs. The World, post-2011 Super Tournaments), and the list of multi-year finalists grows quite long (remember, this article is about the greatest players in GSL history).
Ultimately, it's not the just the counting of medals and comparing of resumes that matters, but how they tell the larger tale of a player's unique influence on the GSL. It's why INnoVation fails to cut as imposing a figure as his hallowed predecessor Mvp, despite having the same number of GSL titles. INnoVation is the guy who won a lot, but he's not yet the guy who won the most. Perhaps when he surpasses Mvp's tally by winning another Code S title, he'll carve out his own legacy as the GSL's ultimate compiler. But until then, he'll continue to live in Mvp's shadow (as the 4th greatest player in GSL history—not a bad place to be).
Mvp's in-game excellence gave the nascent GSL the legitimacy that allowed it to become what it is today. soO's suffering imbued it with a complexity and emotional depth beyond merely celebrating winners. Maru has impacted the GSL with something entirely new—he redefined our idea of just how dominant one can be at StarCraft II.
Consistency and trophy-accounting damn Maru if that’s what you care about, but the sheer magnitude of Maru’s achievements cannot be downplayed. Mvp and soO’s fingerprints may be all over GSL, but Maru punched right through the canvas this year.
Whether you consider Mvp, soO or Maru the greatest player in GSL history, you really can’t go wrong. All three are legends in their own right, with unique accomplishments that separate them from their peers. In the end, it’s just another debate without an answer, but the fact that Maru has managed to insert himself into the discussion is proof of how incredible a player he is.
Good article but once again we are overlooking the fact that Maru is in the only team house left in Korea and he certainly has some advantages from that environment, e.g. meal preparation, teammate love, practice, and strategy creation, additional coaching etc..this is not to say his accomplishments are bad, they're amazing, but it's been done in a weaker era with clear advantages over others.
My GSL ranking would have to be: Innovation Life soO MVP Maru
However if Maru can win next year too, clearly he moves up the list to 1.
Nice article, I found myself getting chills again watching that clip of game 7 in the series against TY haha.
Although it is a reality that he is on the last team house in Korea, but I think that it's really something for Maru to have been in the same "post-KeSpa" spot last year with very lackluster results and winning 4 premier titles this year, with 3 of them being back to back to back Code S wins.
BlizzCon would truly be the seal of dominance when it comes to Maru in 2018; he's not the FlaSh of SC2 yet, but man are the circumstances there to make that happen.
Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
I really hope Maru get a good showing at Blizzcon to consolidate his position as one of Korea greatest, if not the greatest. But I fear he's gonna suffer a early exit, favourite rarely do well at Blizzcon and he just "lost" his first tournament in months.
Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korea he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record. And people do forget how good he was in the kespa days, people only talk about his 2018 runs when discussing his legacy/GOAT potential.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote: Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title.
I think this is super important to note. OSL and SSL both had just as high a level as competition as the GSL, and to completely leave them out when considering the greatest of all time is just a little ridiculous. Now, granted, this article is titled "Maru's Place in GSL History", but I think you just have to consider more than just the GSL when there have been SO many prestigious tournaments in Korea over the last 8 years.
EDIT: Wax also has a very good point - there's an argument to be made that at one time he was the best player in Proleague. For years the best player in Proleague was practically equivalent to the best player in the world - to this day, when describing Flash's dominance, everyone refers you back to Proleague. Obviously Maru wasn't on the same level of dominance as Flash, but you can't just ignore Proleague results.
Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just use the term Kespa era to specify the timeframe in which the sc2 scene was the most competitive which happens to be the period in which Kespa was involved in the scene. I'm not talking about the success of those players in Kespa organized tournaments or something like that, I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Oh and I also didn't say that this makes Maru place below those players in a GOAT list, just that this is a legitimate argument to consider when comparing him to the other greats.
I would call Maru goat and bonjwa but not the greatest of the GSL. GSL has actually historically been the one place where Maru underperforms, MVP is the greatest in GSL history but we'll see. If Maru gets to a GSL finals next year I'll probably change my mind.
On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote: Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title.
Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time.
You can argue his place as the best player of all time by considering that another player has 7 chamionships in korean tournaments out of which 4 are Starleagues and who also dominated Proleague with 2 titles compared to Maru's 1.
On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote: Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title.
Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time.
You can argue his place as the best player of all time by considering that another player has 7 chamionships in korean tournaments out of which 4 are Starleagues and who also dominated Proleague with 2 titles compared to Maru's 1.
The fact INno won two SPL titles compared to Maru's 1 is a pretty bad argument when Maru was better than INno personally.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote: Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title.
Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time.
You can argue his place as the best player of all time by considering that another player has 7 chamionships in korean tournaments out of which 4 are Starleagues and who also dominated Proleague with 2 titles compared to Maru's 1.
The fact INno won two SPL titles compared to Maru's 1 is a pretty bad argument when Maru was better than INno personally.
Maru maybe had a slightly better record (not sure on that since Liquipedia doesn't include playoffs) but Inno winning 2 titles is an important thing to consider as he won his match both times while Maru lost 2015 to Dream.
On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote: One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote: Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title.
Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time.
You can argue his place as the best player of all time by considering that another player has 7 chamionships in korean tournaments out of which 4 are Starleagues and who also dominated Proleague with 2 titles compared to Maru's 1.
The fact INno won two SPL titles compared to Maru's 1 is a pretty bad argument when Maru was better than INno personally.
Maru maybe had a slightly better record (not sure on that since Liquipedia doesn't include playoffs) but Inno winning 2 titles is an important thing to consider as he won his match both times while Maru lost 2015 to Dream.
Maru may have those a map to Dream in that final, but his playoff results in general were disgusting. If I remember correctly he went 30-13 in playoffs across the three years he competed. Reminiscence of his recent GSL runs where he does just good enough to make ro8 then destroys everyone.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain.
But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain.
But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons.
If I had just used trophies as the deciding factor I wouldn't have included soO in the list
He is the greatest among current pros, but not the bonjwa yet. If he wins blizzcon and 2 or more GSLs in a row, then maybe we can call him the true bonjwa.
And he didn't participate IEM world championship, and he fell in both of GSL Super tournaments and GSL vs World. It doesn't matter how he less practiced there compared to GSL code S and WESG. We don't know if he is gonna win blizzcon yet. The true bonjwa means, when someone enters a tournaments in full of all the best players, he should be the level of someone who can never lose to anyone in every single tournaments. But, Maru is not someone who can never be beaten.
Rogue won IEM world championship, Stats won Super tournament 1, Serral won GSL vs World, Classic won Super tournament 2. At least, Maru won 3 GSL code S and WESG in this year.
On October 08 2018 06:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: He is the greatest among current pros, but not the bonjwa yet. If he wins blizzcon and 2 or more GSLs in a row, then maybe we can call him the true bonjwa.
And he didn't participate IEM world championship, and he fell in both of GSL Super tournaments and GSL vs World. It doesn't matter how he less practiced there compared to GSL code S and WESG. We don't know if he is gonna win blizzcon yet. The true bonjwa means, when someone enters a tournaments in full of all the best players, he should be the level of someone who can never lose to anyone in every single tournaments. But, Maru is not someone who can never be beaten.
Rogue won IEM world championship, Stats won Super tournament 1, Serral won GSL vs World, Classic won Super tournament 2. At least, Maru won 3 GSL code S and WESG in this year.
Whee Maru is not a bonjwa yet
Maru did participate in IEM World Championship. He was closely eliminated by Rogue in the Semi finals.
On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote: One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
I don't think it does, the game was less mature, but there was a shit ton more money and competition all around.
I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote: One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
I don't think it does, the game was less mature, but there was a shit ton more money and competition all around.
I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
The problem with Mvp is that people rate him more on what he could have been then what he was, he was only the undisputed best player for a year in 2011 where he won around half of the tournament he entered (which is amazing don't get me wrong), he also had a great 2012 but it was a worst year compare to let say INnovation 2017, SoO 2014 or on par with Zest 2014 or MC 2011 or 2012. So was Mvp 2011 year the most dominant year by a programmer, well there's a strong case to make for it at least, but it's easy to assume that he would have retain that form without injury but the truth is that we don't have a clue. Mvp had the luxury of "quitting" while he was on top, of at least getting excuse for his lackluster last year and a half, while most other player goes through ups and down, and on top of that almost all of the player of his era ended their career with middling result, we got to watch guys like MarineKing, HerO, Nestea, Squirtle, MC ect.. get mixed results and getting eliminate early in tournaments for years well after they were past their prime, before they decided to trow the towel.
We only remember Mvp when he was winning but if he had played 4 more year in his 2013-2014 form and won only like 1 of 2 tournament in those years we would be a lot more critical of him. The same way if HerO had retired mid 2014 we would probably think of him as one of the very top tier protoss player of all time, but after we got to watch him for 3 painfully mediocre years it's hard to still consider him one of the game great.
Not saying that Mvp isn't the greatest, or that he wouldn't have been even better if given the chance without is injury, but more the fact that Mvp was never given the chance to fail, we always got to excuse his failure (with legitimate reason but there is no reason to be sure that we wouldn't have fail anyway).
Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore.
On October 08 2018 13:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore.
You the kinda person who would say Ruth, Pele, Russell are not all-time greats in their respective sports ?
Or to stay inside StarCraft, you think Boxer and Nada are not all-time greats?
On October 08 2018 13:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore.
You the kinda person who would say Ruth, Pele, Russell are not all-time greats in their respective sports ?
Or to stay inside StarCraft, you think Boxer and Nada are not all-time greats?
He didn't say he doesn't consider Mvp one of the all-time greats. Just that he isn't top 3. considering Boxer not a top 3 player is also a reasonable opinion.
I think that Maru did something far more difficult than Mvp, rather I never liked Maru. I know why I disliked him, but this year he plays so many different styles, and both he and TY are stealing strats from each other. Yes, this year he is finally flexible, and defeated so many favorite players of mine like Dark, Classic, TY... but along with the rushes that I cursed so much in all those years, he overshadowed in long-macrogame any of the players that I've mentioned. Despite the numbers and statistics that favor the two terrans, the era that was mostly competative was HotS, which did not belonged to them /Maru only dominated in Proleague/. And in this bad era for terrans, Innovation take two GSL's which is still amazing achievement. The games in Code S were so polished and perfect. I still remember a game between DRG and Inno in Ro32 which was so perfect and epic. Soulkey's rise was astonishing, and of course finally the big time fir macro protosses came in a stage where almost all of the players in Code S were competitive. Remember the final between Zest and soO when Zest got almost half full supply and soO got 15k minerals and 5k gaz with full supply and couldn't just take the map because of Zest piece of art game and positioning with air-army. The commentators and analyzers were just not prepared for the rise of Dear, Classic and sOs. sOs were always the underdog and I favorite him for the both Blizzcon's. Yes, none of them was bonjwa, but they played great in most of the time. So, statistics and numbers can talk, but I cannot confirm who is the best or who is mostly legendary of them all. No emotions should play in this analyzes. But still the article is cool because soO is mentioned in for a damn good reason. On its own logic, he could be the greatest of them all.
yes, mvp maru and soo, all great legends, great picks. soo may never have won first place in a major tournament, but he is still #1 in many fan's hearts.
On October 08 2018 13:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore.
You the kinda person who would say Ruth, Pele, Russell are not all-time greats in their respective sports ?
Or to stay inside StarCraft, you think Boxer and Nada are not all-time greats?
He didn't say he doesn't consider Mvp one of the all-time greats. Just that he isn't top 3. considering Boxer not a top 3 player is also a reasonable opinion.
Well the argument is about the people who made it to the top in the most competitive environment, vs the people who made it to the top and created and shaped that competitive environment in the first place.
In BW there's no disputing FlaSh's GOATness but no one in their right mind would say "meh BoxeR is overrated just look at FlaSh instead" or try to compare them in that way because it's just rude and reeks of an immature lack of understanding of the context of the scene.
I don't think SC2 is very different in this regard.
I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider: - 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat - 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat - triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness. From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague. He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again. Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
On October 08 2018 19:28 fronkschnonk wrote: As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider: - 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat - 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat - triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness. From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague. He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again. Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
Did you just say Maru is the only player with 2 periods of dominance? Life famously had 2 and Innovation had like 5.
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain.
But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons.
If I had just used trophies as the deciding factor I wouldn't have included soO in the list
I suppose. But in that case what earth what would posses you to rank herO>Maru if the kespa era is what we're discussing.
Considering you talk so highly of INno who barely won more than Maru and was overall much less consistent.
On October 08 2018 19:28 fronkschnonk wrote: As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider: - 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat - 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat - triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness. From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague. He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again. Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
Did you just say Maru is the only player with 2 periods of dominance? Life famously had 2 and Innovation had like 5.
if he's talking about eras of dominance hen Maru has three, Inno has either two or four depending on whether isolated seasons count, Zest Life and soO all have two.
Edit: actually if you include proleague then Maru was dominating almost nonstop from 2013 through 2016. The only real slump he had was 2017.
It's all very nice, but can we really dismiss the possibility that Maru is so dominant simply by attrition? Yes, there are other great players still playing, but maybe Maru is just ageing better? He had a good start by being the youngest back in 2010.
I still like watching SC2, but I just can't make myself believe all the hype. A lot of players have moved on and new ones aren't really coming. The lack of teams and sponsors has also surely an impact on performance and so must have simple tiredness if the grind for many. Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
might be true in retrospect but currently starcraft 2 is the best it has been to watch even with reduced competition. if we're talking about action and surprising turn of events within a game, i think it can go without saying that it's the best version of sc2 that we have.
the players who left did so years ago almost back before 2015 and before lotv. the rest of the pack continue to try and compete. and obviously if you're doing so, you feel you still have a chance or results show in practice.
i also don't think the teamhouse regimen argument entirely works. we had people doing their own thing, taking series off the best of the best and upsetting that natural order, and it happened often enough that the question was raised.
had teamhouse environments kept producing better and better players up until this point without a doubt, we'd have maru win less. he gets figured out slower, maybe, but you've seen his performances yourself. they can't be diminished, they're almost otherwordly good at times.
the point is that he's the most dominant force and on that same coin all dominating forces in the history of starcraft ever have their own caveats to their performances.
i don't think it makes it any less exciting, or respectable especially when we're presently at the best time of starcraft 2 for spectators.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
it's not just about the players who completely left but also about those who declined in skill due to age/motivation/lack of teamhouse environment etc. Inno, Zest, herO and soO are all well past their peak right now just to name a few names.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
it's not just about the players who completely left but also about those who declined in skill due to age/motivation/lack of teamhouse environment etc. Inno, Zest, herO and soO are all well past their peak right now just to name a few names.
maybe, but i think you are getting a little bit ahead of yourself here:
inno and soO also did win almost nothing in 2016 (at least until after blizzcon in innos case), and both had a pretty good 2017, so i wouldn't jugde their overall form by just one year, since both were still a lot better than in 2016.
herO might be true, since he seems to be done with sc2 on a high lvl, i can agree with you here, but while still an awesome player (i always liked watching him), he was never one to dominate over a longer period.
as for zest: i think he had a pretty decent year, while still not at his former glory, he plays rather well again
and what also has an impact is, that players like TY and Stats for example play on a higher lvl right now than in the kespa days i would say, so there are movements in both directions i would say
On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote: Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era.
People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era.
Debatable.
In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record.
He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA
People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place
I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive.
Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain.
But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons.
If I had just used trophies as the deciding factor I wouldn't have included soO in the list
I suppose. But in that case what earth what would posses you to rank herO>Maru if the kespa era is what we're discussing.
Considering you talk so highly of INno who barely won more than Maru and was overall much less consistent.
12 to 9 top 4 finishes, 2 to 1 runner ups, 5 to 2 championships. I guess you can argue that a lot of this were foreign tournaments but he also won an SSL and a Kespa Cup with 3 additional korean ro4s which is only slightly worse than Maru's record in korea during that time.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San, RorO and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example.
and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example.
and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
But would he have lifted the trophy if there were more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example.
and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
But would he have lifted the trophy if there are more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance.
maybe yes, maybe he always just plays as good as he has to (he is maru after all), there is no way to tell.
but even in the (according to some in this forum) more competitive days, soO made a couple finals in a row, so it definetly is possible to do it, even if one rates soO higher than maru (which i for one do)
in the end of the day it is pointless to debate these what-ifs anyway, since we will never know. i just started this conversation, because i think the retirement of top players is just not true at all (but the density of the field was higher, i agree there)
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. Could it be that the players can't compete because they are old, not as fast, nor motivated to train 14 hours a day? Also, you can't just say that the retirement of players who weren't competitors for Maru is irrelevant - they retired often exactly because they stopped being competitive.
This all again boils to my primary point: Maru has not declined and this is his major asset. Barring time travel or standardized capable enough AI (which we did not have, so it's moot) there is no real way to compare skill across different times. What you can compare though is the size of the scene and the total lack of new players.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example.
and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
But would he have lifted the trophy if there are more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance.
maybe yes, maybe he always just plays as good as he has to (he is maru after all), there is no way to tell.
but even in the (according to some in this forum) more competitive days, soO made a couple finals in a row, so it definetly is possible to do it, even if one rates soO higher than maru (which i for one do)
in the end of the day it is pointless to debate these what-ifs anyway, since we will never know. i just started this conversation, because i think the retirement of top players is just not true at all (but the density of the field was higher, i agree there)
Yeah we don't know if Maru would have been able to do the same if the scene was as fierce as it was back then but it still puts a slight question mark above his achievements. If he won 3 GSLs in a row in 2015 there wouldn't be a question about whether he's the greatest of all time -as it is a GSL win in 2015 is just objectively more impressive than one in 2018.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. ...
k,
if you know that for sure, than good for you
i for one am playing and watching this game from the very beginning, and i dont see top players doing that amount of stupid things and bad macro nowadays,
i rewatched the mvp comeback against inno the other day, because it was mentioned in an article here, and it was simply painfull to watch, innovation today would never throw this hard
but thats just my personal opinion, if you think you know better than feel free to ignore my obviously wrong views i'd say
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example.
and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
But would he have lifted the trophy if there are more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance.
maybe yes, maybe he always just plays as good as he has to (he is maru after all), there is no way to tell.
but even in the (according to some in this forum) more competitive days, soO made a couple finals in a row, so it definetly is possible to do it, even if one rates soO higher than maru (which i for one do)
in the end of the day it is pointless to debate these what-ifs anyway, since we will never know. i just started this conversation, because i think the retirement of top players is just not true at all (but the density of the field was higher, i agree there)
Yeah we don't know if Maru would have been able to do the same if the scene was as fierce as it was back then but it still puts a slight question mark above his achievements. If he won 3 GSLs in a row in 2015 there wouldn't be a question about whether he's the greatest of all time -as it is a GSL win in 2015 is just objectively more impressive than one in 2018.
sure, one can see it that way,
there were some wanky GSLs back in the day as well in my opinion, and at least from the ro8 on the matches are still on a pretty high lvl these days overall, so it is still impressive what he did (i don't participate in this stupid GOAT stuff, since it is utterly pointless in my opinion)
for me three in a row is impressive, no matter the year, but to each his own
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
I wouldn't say you're wrong. It's pretty unlikely that Maru would to far worse if some older guys were still around. Life is around his age and would probably still do rather well - but he fucked up. The more important aspect that questions Maru's position is: there is no newly approaching competition. Aside from the foreign players being swept in, there seem to be pretty much 0 up and coming players. Therefore, with every older player leaving the scene, the competition Maru's facing gets worse. And while these departures were evened out by new blood in the past, that's no longer the case. All top tier players before were - at one point - contested by new players. And that's completely gone by now.
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. ...
k,
if you know that for sure, than good for you
i for one am playing and watching this game from the very beginning, and i dont see top players doing that amount of stupid things and bad macro nowadays,
i rewatched the mvp comeback against inno the other day, because it was mentioned in an article here, and it was simply painfull to watch, innovation today would never throw this hard
but thats just my personal opinion, if you think you know better than feel free to ignore my obviously wrong views i'd say
On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote: .... Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. ...
k,
if you know that for sure, than good for you
i for one am playing and watching this game from the very beginning, and i dont see top players doing that amount of stupid things and bad macro nowadays,
i rewatched the mvp comeback against inno the other day, because it was mentioned in an article here, and it was simply painfull to watch, innovation today would never throw this hard
but thats just my personal opinion, if you think you know better than feel free to ignore my obviously wrong views i'd say
I have not said I know for sure it isn't better, I only said that saying it is is hard to argue by actual evidence, so if you present it as the starting point for a conclusion, the reliability of such conclusion is dubious.
There are multiple factors that make it hard to judge purely from watching gameplay - for example, how much of the apparent improvement is knowledge that can be easily shared and thus would be available to any player who would have stayed active? Also the game changed a lot in terms of it being now more multitask oriented, which looks impressive but it possible tests different skills than a WoL game did.
Small correction needed in the article: When talking about soO, it states that he had 2 final appearances in 2016, when they were in 2017.
On topic, GSL specific players I would rate Inno #1, Maru #2, MVP #3. Inno has been the best and among the best for a long time and winning championships in the most competitive eras. Maru is almost the same but didn't win any GSL championships until now, with a lower competition, but he was also among the best for a long time in very competitive eras. MVP dominated hard early on when there was strong competition, but the metagame / game knowledge of competitors was not as high (which is an argument for rating MVP higher) but he had a very narrow peak. There were also many more GSL opportunities when MVP was competing compared to 2013+ (when Inno started to get on top).
On October 08 2018 19:28 fronkschnonk wrote: As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider: - 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat - 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat - triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness. From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague. He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again. Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
Did you just say Maru is the only player with 2 periods of dominance? Life famously had 2 and Innovation had like 5.
The question is, how long has such a period to be to be called like that. Life peaked twice very hard within a quite narrow timeframe. The first was september to december in 2012 in which he also underperformed hardly at IPL and at GSL S5 - so it's questionable if you really want to call this "period of dominance" - a time in wich Sniper and Leenock contested his position as the best zerg. The 2nd period was an actual period of dominance with him being on top of almost everything and not showing any bad results from Blizzcon 2014 to GSL S1 2015. For Innovation I really can't see any real period of dominance before 2017. Winning an isolated GSL (which is great) is no "period of dominance" to me.
On October 09 2018 01:37 MrMischelito wrote: as much as I acknowledge the incredible feats of all these champions... I thought we decided to STOP debating the question Greatest Of All Time!
This question will never die! Everyone loves to argue over their favourite players ^_^
I'd like to read (in a loooong article with lots of graphs, gifs and VODs!!!) about why you think this great success of Maru came only now and not at any other point in time (past or future).
On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote: One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
I don't think it does, the game was less mature, but there was a shit ton more money and competition all around.
I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
The problem with Mvp is that people rate him more on what he could have been then what he was, he was only the undisputed best player for a year in 2011 where he won around half of the tournament he entered (which is amazing don't get me wrong), he also had a great 2012 but it was a worst year compare to let say INnovation 2017, SoO 2014 or on par with Zest 2014 or MC 2011 or 2012. So was Mvp 2011 year the most dominant year by a programmer, well there's a strong case to make for it at least, but it's easy to assume that he would have retain that form without injury but the truth is that we don't have a clue. Mvp had the luxury of "quitting" while he was on top, of at least getting excuse for his lackluster last year and a half, while most other player goes through ups and down, and on top of that almost all of the player of his era ended their career with middling result, we got to watch guys like MarineKing, HerO, Nestea, Squirtle, MC ect.. get mixed results and getting eliminate early in tournaments for years well after they were past their prime, before they decided to trow the towel.
We only remember Mvp when he was winning but if he had played 4 more year in his 2013-2014 form and won only like 1 of 2 tournament in those years we would be a lot more critical of him. The same way if HerO had retired mid 2014 we would probably think of him as one of the very top tier protoss player of all time, but after we got to watch him for 3 painfully mediocre years it's hard to still consider him one of the game great.
Not saying that Mvp isn't the greatest, or that he wouldn't have been even better if given the chance without is injury, but more the fact that Mvp was never given the chance to fail, we always got to excuse his failure (with legitimate reason but there is no reason to be sure that we wouldn't have fail anyway).
That's a very good point. So few players have the "luxury" of leaving at their peak
On October 09 2018 01:37 MrMischelito wrote: as much as I acknowledge the incredible feats of all these champions... I thought we decided to STOP debating the question Greatest Of All Time!
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
Probably the same way as people miss water being wet again
To be fair, we make fun if mizenhauer for this, but truth is that Soo's finals sequence is totally unparalleled and if we lived in a little less champion-focused world, he would probably be celebrated much more than he is.
Although I understand the reluctance to discuss Life, his Royal Road deserves to be mentioned in terms of perspectives through which we evaluate GSL achievements.
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
Probably the same way as people miss water being wet again
To be fair, we make fun if mizenhauer for this, but truth is that Soo's finals sequence is totally unparalleled and if we lived in a little less champion-focused world, he would probably be celebrated much more than he is.
He was celebrated quite a lot back in those days IIRC. It was several times mentioned that his consistency is insane. At the same time Maru was godlike Terran who couldn't get into the winning mood, but he was almost always in the top8 even when Terran wasn't the best race to play(looking at Innovation). While soO acomplished something amazing it was still "just" 4 second places. It's just not enough in the long term because championship is what really matters in the long run.
I didn't see any mention of that fact it took 8 years for Maru to actually win a GSL. While others may have won them spread across years, they overall played for less time than Maru.
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
Maru beated Serral 3-0 in the weekend tournament with $200K winning price. Serral had record 18-0 against other foreigners before facing Maru which was still dominant and the only undefeated record in a tournament in foreign scene 2018.
And I think ByuN achievement in 2016 was unbelievable story cuz it was Kespa era and ByuN was a pure one man army and won GSL and blizzcon.
And also it is well known in Korea that Maru is kinda lazy at practicing in non top tier tournaments.
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
Maru beated Serral 3-0 in the weekend tournament with $200K winning price
And I think ByuN achievement in 2016 was more unbelievable cuz it was Kespa era and ByuN was a pure one man army and won GSL and blizzcon.
At Blizzcon ByuN was actually the only one with a team.
On October 09 2018 21:06 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
On October 08 2018 22:06 Dave4 wrote:
On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
Maru beated Serral 3-0 in the weekend tournament with $200K winning price
And I think ByuN achievement in 2016 was more unbelievable cuz it was Kespa era and ByuN was a pure one man army and won GSL and blizzcon.
At Blizzcon ByuN was actually the only one with a team.
Not true since Kespa teams provided team house for blizzcon players, and Dark’s SKT didn’t provide for it. And ByuN team had who??
On October 09 2018 22:46 SSNYC77 wrote: dont MVP and Inno have only 3 GSL titles?
Apparently INo has four - I'll be honest, I completely forgot that, it shows here.
OP: Graphs and charts would have been fab, but there is no denying that Maru has been a fantastic player over the years. Consider that in 2014 S1 and S2 in GSL there were about 4/5 terrans, and Maru reached the semis both times. In ProLeague he was a joy to watch. If he wins BlizzCon he will probably be the GOAT for me. Sorry, Jurgen.
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
I didn't miss it lol. I considered commenting on it.
But in a way, he is correct. That many second places *is* very memorable. He does leave a memorable legacy.
soo is an all time great, probably the second best zerg after life. it's funny how people will break out any kind of math or statistics they can imagine but we can't all agree that making 7 billion major finals is mathematically dominant. i get why championship culture exists - it enhances the male soap opera of sports and makes our hearts feel a certain type of way. but we assign more importance to individual #1 finishes than they're due
actually, i'd go as far as saying that if you're ranking the most skilled players it's scientifically juvenile to waste time stacking up championships against each other when there are so many other factors to weigh. reminds me of the old timers in baseball who think pitcher wins are a good stat.
ultimately it's all pretty subjective, but if your whole picture of a player is the number of titles they won why even bother having the debate?
On October 09 2018 23:30 IshinShishi wrote: Both have four, you guys disappoint me, go watch Mvp play, he was the smartest player to ever play this game, Ty is a mere child in comparison.
But what are those 4? The only thing i can think of is that TL for some reason counts invitationals as full on GSLs. But thatd be ridiculous. You might as well say Yellow has an MSL title because he won Snickers all-star.
On October 09 2018 23:30 IshinShishi wrote: Both have four, you guys disappoint me, go watch Mvp play, he was the smartest player to ever play this game, Ty is a mere child in comparison.
But what are those 4? The only thing i can think of is that TL for some reason counts invitationals as full on GSLs. But thatd be ridiculous. You might as well say Yellow has an MSL title because he won Snickers all-star.
Gomtv and now afreeca count these weekend tournaments like gsl vs the world (in serral's case) as gsls. The confusion arises because when people talk about gsl they mean code s. So Mvp won 3 code s titles but 4 gsls. (including the 2011 GSL World Championship)
On October 09 2018 23:30 IshinShishi wrote: Both have four, you guys disappoint me, go watch Mvp play, he was the smartest player to ever play this game, Ty is a mere child in comparison.
But what are those 4? The only thing i can think of is that TL for some reason counts invitationals as full on GSLs. But thatd be ridiculous. You might as well say Yellow has an MSL title because he won Snickers all-star.
MVP has 4 GSL title Inno has 3 GSL and 1 SSL title. I think 4 if GSL if you count his win at GSL vs The World
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
I didn't miss it lol. I considered commenting on it.
But in a way, he is correct. That many second places *is* very memorable. He does leave a memorable legacy.
soo is an all time great, probably the second best zerg after life. it's funny how people will break out any kind of math or statistics they can imagine but we can't all agree that making 7 billion major finals is mathematically dominant. i get why championship culture exists - it enhances the male soap opera of sports and makes our hearts feel a certain type of way. but we assign more importance to individual #1 finishes than they're due
actually, i'd go as far as saying that if you're ranking the most skilled players it's scientifically juvenile to waste time stacking up championships against each other when there are so many other factors to weigh. reminds me of the old timers in baseball who think pitcher wins are a good stat.
ultimately it's all pretty subjective, but if your whole picture of a player is the number of titles they won why even bother having the debate?
If people want to measure success in other metrics than championship titles I think that is perfectly reasonable.
However, if we are going to go by tournament performances - the statistical significance of a 1st place finish vs a 2nd place finish is very large. Like, objectively - on average. When each round is likely to be more difficult than the previous, winning say - 6rounds in a row - is much much more difficult than winning 5 rounds in a row.
Saying INno/Mvp have 4 GSLs is misleading because it puts GSL vs the World on the same level as Code S. Which would be stupid.
People aren't even consistant with their stupidity either. They don't do it for Life or Zest, who both won Code S twice and a GSL World cup (which is better than GSL vs the world).
Mvp and INno fans are just desperate to make their idols seem better than they are.
On October 09 2018 04:01 Waxangel wrote: How did everyone miss Mizenhauer sneaking soO in as a top-3 all-timer because of his feelings?
I didn't miss it lol. I considered commenting on it.
But in a way, he is correct. That many second places *is* very memorable. He does leave a memorable legacy.
soo is an all time great, probably the second best zerg after life. it's funny how people will break out any kind of math or statistics they can imagine but we can't all agree that making 7 billion major finals is mathematically dominant. i get why championship culture exists - it enhances the male soap opera of sports and makes our hearts feel a certain type of way. but we assign more importance to individual #1 finishes than they're due
actually, i'd go as far as saying that if you're ranking the most skilled players it's scientifically juvenile to waste time stacking up championships against each other when there are so many other factors to weigh. reminds me of the old timers in baseball who think pitcher wins are a good stat.
ultimately it's all pretty subjective, but if your whole picture of a player is the number of titles they won why even bother having the debate?
If people want to measure success in other metrics than championship titles I think that is perfectly reasonable.
However, if we are going to go by tournament performances - the statistical significance of a 1st place finish vs a 2nd place finish is very large. Like, objectively - on average. When each round is likely to be more difficult than the previous, winning say - 6rounds in a row - is much much more difficult than winning 5 rounds in a row.
But winning 5 rounds in a row, losing one, then winning another 5, over and over again, is surely more impressive than winning 6 in a row then not gaining much afterwoods?
Out of both of Life's GSL championships, he never made ro8 in the neighbouring seasons (losing mostly in Code A or ro32). soO got second four times in a row, that part is really significant.
On October 10 2018 05:10 Fango wrote: People aren't even consistant with their stupidity either. They don't do it for Life or Zest, who both won Code S twice and a GSL World cup (which is better than GSL vs the world).
On October 10 2018 05:10 Fango wrote: People aren't even consistant with their stupidity either. They don't do it for Life or Zest, who both won Code S twice and a GSL World cup (which is better than GSL vs the world).
I've seen many people say Life won 3 GSLs
Maybe. But certainly not as many claiming so. Mvp and INno having four GSLs seems widely accepted at this point.
Ok, let's clarify: MVP, Inno and Maru all have won GSL Code S three times now. I would also count Nestea in who won GSL Open Season 2 in 2010 and two times Code S in 2011.
MVP and Inno both have an additional GSL title under their belt because of winning a GSL-Weekender (MVP GSL world championship in 2011 - which basically was a GSL vs The World and Inno GSL vs The World in 2017).
GSL weirdly gave golds for their GSLvsTheWorld-tournaments, Blizzard-Cups and Global Championchips but not for their Hot6-Cups and according to Liquipedia not for the Super Tournaments that were won by Rogue (ST2 2017) and Classic (ST2 2018) but for all other Super Tournaments including ST1 of 2017 and 2018... weird.
Fun fact: Thus Life's and Zest's 3 GSL-Golds also include only 2 CodeS-Championships as well as Stats' and MMA's 2 Golds only one CodeS-Championship.
On October 10 2018 05:10 Fango wrote: People aren't even consistant with their stupidity either. They don't do it for Life or Zest, who both won Code S twice and a GSL World cup (which is better than GSL vs the world).
I've seen many people say Life won 3 GSLs
Maybe. But certainly not as many claiming so. Mvp and INno having four GSLs seems widely accepted at this point.
Well, people discuss Mvp and Inno and Maru on the regular. People don't talk about Life anymore.
Also I'd like to point out that Zest got a GSL pin for his World Cup so he's a 3 time GSL champ to me. We all know only the pins matter.
On October 10 2018 05:10 Fango wrote: People aren't even consistant with their stupidity either. They don't do it for Life or Zest, who both won Code S twice and a GSL World cup (which is better than GSL vs the world).
I've seen many people say Life won 3 GSLs
Maybe. But certainly not as many claiming so. Mvp and INno having four GSLs seems widely accepted at this point.
Also I'd like to point out that Zest got a GSL pin for his World Cup so he's a 3 time GSL champ to me. We all know only the pins matter.
He did? If he does I haven't seen him where it. In the final against Maru he had two.
GSL wins = winning tournaments that have the name GSL in it.
I think it's really stupid that people put emphasis on how many "GSL's" someone has won because there's really no difference between a GSL cup and a Hot6ix/Kespa Cup or a GSL Code S and an OSL/SSL.
The distinction people should make is how many Starleagues/korean weekenders someone has won - the amount of tournaments they won which have the name GSL in it is completely irrelevant for evaluating someones "greatness".
Under this distinction it is: Maru: 5 Starleagues, 0 weekenders Inno: 4 Starleagues, 3 weekenders Mvp: 3 Starleagues, 1 weekender Zest: 2 Starleagues, 2 weekenders Life: 2 Starleagues, 1 weekender
I think you can add Blizzcon and IEM Katowice to the weekender category because they are as competitive as a korean weekender. With that Zest and Life have 1 weekender more (I don't count Mvp's Blizzcon for obvious reasons).
On October 10 2018 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: GSL wins = winning tournaments that have the name GSL in it.
I think it's really stupid that people put emphasis on how many "GSL's" someone has won because there's really no difference between a GSL cup and a Hot6ix/Kespa Cup or a GSL Code S and an OSL/SSL.
The distinction people should make is how many Starleagues/korean weekenders someone has won - the amount of tournaments they won which have the name GSL in it is completely irrelevant for evaluating someones "greatness".
Under this distinction it is: Maru: 5 Starleagues, 0 weekenders Inno: 4 Starleagues, 3 weekenders Mvp: 3 Starleagues, 1 weekender Zest: 2 Starleagues, 2 weekenders Life: 2 Starleagues, 2 weekenders
I think you can add Blizzcon and IEM Katowice to the weekender category because they are as competitive as a korean weekender. With that Zest and Life have 1 weekender more (I don't count Mvp's Blizzcon for obvious reasons).
Ok fair enough, but one shouldn't stop with only titles there either. Also teamleague results are important on top of that. I am really bothered by this simplified method of only looking at titles, as we see soO doesn't even appear in your little list which shows rather well how flawed it is. Also completely neglecting other weekenders is silly as well. I think going with results only is fine, all these players played in so many different tournaments that it balances itself out more or less (how difficult a path was, etc), but then we still need to look at it holistically and not just 1st place finishes in a handpicked group of tournaments (weighing them differently is important though for obvious reasons)
On October 10 2018 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: GSL wins = winning tournaments that have the name GSL in it.
I think it's really stupid that people put emphasis on how many "GSL's" someone has won because there's really no difference between a GSL cup and a Hot6ix/Kespa Cup or a GSL Code S and an OSL/SSL.
The distinction people should make is how many Starleagues/korean weekenders someone has won - the amount of tournaments they won which have the name GSL in it is completely irrelevant for evaluating someones "greatness".
Under this distinction it is: Maru: 5 Starleagues, 0 weekenders Inno: 4 Starleagues, 3 weekenders Mvp: 3 Starleagues, 1 weekender Zest: 2 Starleagues, 2 weekenders Life: 2 Starleagues, 1 weekender
I think you can add Blizzcon and IEM Katowice to the weekender category because they are as competitive as a korean weekender. With that Zest and Life have 1 weekender more (I don't count Mvp's Blizzcon for obvious reasons).
Ok fair enough, but one shouldn't stop with only titles there either. Also teamleague results are important on top of that. I am really bothered by this simplified method of only looking at titles, as we see soO doesn't even appear in your little list which shows rather well how flawed it is. Also completely neglecting other weekenders is silly as well. I think going with results only is fine, all these players played in so many different tournaments that it balances itself out more or less (how difficult a path was, etc), but then we still need to look at it holistically and not just 1st place finished in a handpicked group of tournaments (weighing them differently is important though for obvious reasons)
This shouldn't be a ranking of how accomplished those players are or something like that. It just annoys me that people talk about how many GSL's someone has won as if there were any meaning to that. Obviously you have to take much more into consideration for a ranking but this list is a good starting point and 100 times more meaningful than a list of GSL wins.
what about the intangibles? Inno at best looked like a perfect macro machine, he never looked like he knew ahead of time what his opponents would do and just bop them each and every way, he never looked like he was above the game like prime Mvp did, this is not even fan talk, srsly.
On October 10 2018 10:28 IshinShishi wrote: what about the intangibles? Inno at best looked like a perfect macro machine, he never looked like he knew ahead of time what his opponents would do and just bop them each and every way, he never looked like he was above the game like prime Mvp did, this is not even fan talk, srsly.
It's funny, because Serral plays with both of these qualities.
As an "old school" starcraft 2 fan (I hate myself for even typing that) it would take a lot to convince me that Mvp isn't the sickest GSL player ever. I like that you made a compelling case for Maru/soO/Inno and outlined the strengths and weaknesses of their particular arguments.
BTW having not been following the game for so long leads to fun surprises. Like the fact that Stats has won two GSLs. That blows my mind.
On October 10 2018 14:18 Darkhorse wrote: This is some good stuff.
As an "old school" starcraft 2 fan (I hate myself for even typing that) it would take a lot to convince me that Mvp isn't the sickest GSL player ever. I like that you made a compelling case for Maru/soO/Inno and outlined the strengths and weaknesses of their particular arguments.
BTW having not been following the game for so long leads to fun surprises. Like the fact that Stats has won two GSLs. That blows my mind.
You can't really claim hardcore fandom if you have been absent that long.
On October 10 2018 14:18 Darkhorse wrote: This is some good stuff.
As an "old school" starcraft 2 fan (I hate myself for even typing that) it would take a lot to convince me that Mvp isn't the sickest GSL player ever. I like that you made a compelling case for Maru/soO/Inno and outlined the strengths and weaknesses of their particular arguments.
BTW having not been following the game for so long leads to fun surprises. Like the fact that Stats has won two GSLs. That blows my mind.
You can't really claim hardcore fandom if you have been absent that long.
Well, neither did he claim that nor are you correct with your statement.
I don't think Soo should be there. He is a great player but he is not in the same category as MVP/Life/Maru. He is in a tier of his own for his silver achievement, and I'm not saying this in a derogatory way. It's just that Soo is different from them.
On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference.
well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference.
well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
I was around from the beginning of sc2. And ofc anyone who started sc2 for a month can't be competing in the highest level. They definitely needs time, and the level was definitely the most competitive ever in sc2 when Kespa teams were in sc2. In Korea, most of fans claim 'what if Mvp has started sc2 with other kespa players at the same time?'
On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference.
well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
From HotS release until the disbandment of Kespa teams the only non-elephant Starleague winners were Life, Maru and ByuN. most of the top esf players either left korea (TaeJa, Bomber, MC, MMA, Mvp) or fell into mediocrity following the Kespa switch (Leenock, Creator, Marineking, DRG) The elephant in the room article was of course exaggerated but it's undeniable that Kespa players were on average superior to esf players.
On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away.
It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away.
It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
Mvp was a KeSPA BW player, but he was by no means a top BW player. There were many people on KeSPA teams who never accomplished much and he was one of them. That is the key difference between those players and the real "KeSPA switch" when the real top guns came, along with all the teams and infrastructure. Again, this is all explicitly acknowledged in the very article that this whole "elephant" thing comes from and is nothing surprising.
On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away.
It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
Mvp was a KeSPA BW player, but he was by no means a top BW player. There were many people on KeSPA teams who never accomplished much and he was one of them. That is the key difference between those players and the real "KeSPA switch" when the real top guns came, along with all the teams and infrastructure. Again, this is all explicitly acknowledged in the very article that this whole "elephant" thing comes from and is nothing surprising.
Mvp was certainly a top BW player compared to the rest of SC2's elite during 2010-2011? That's the point I was making. Most of the players who dominated post kespa switch (INno, Dear, Rain, Soulkey, herO, sOs etc) weren't exactly gods in broodwar either, but they still ended up being better than most who were playing sc2 from it's beginning.
Not really... there were just more of them so they seemed to do better because statistically more of them would be successful but esf players did pretty fine.
The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
JD was very successful at farming foreign tournies, which isn't that easy. He didn't win big in KR but he got big paychecks so imo it's been a successful switch for him, albeit not as great as we could have hoped.
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
The top dogs at the point the article was written were not that good in sc2. The soon-to-be top dogs ended up dominating sc2. The writer just assumed for some reason that flash and jd would keep winning forever but they would've been probably surpassed by the new generation anyway even if the switch didn't happen.
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
The top dogs at the point the article was written were not that good in sc2. The soon-to-be top dogs ended up dominating sc2. The writer just assumed for some reason that flash and jd would keep winning forever but they would've been probably surpassed by the new generation anyway even if the switch didn't happen.
Do you even watch bw? Flash was never surpassed, he is still the best by a mile.
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
Dream and Dark are ESF players?
Well..,if you want to get technical, Dark was on Slayers before Kespa arrived which wasn't a part of esf from what I recall. He wasn't an Elephant though. Here's some rare footage of him going up against Taeja while still on Slayers:
Dream was on MVP way back in the day before Kespa's arrival. He first started to get on the radar when he eliminated Rain from code A and made it to the finals of IEM Katowice 2013 (where he stomped PartinG along the way and played an amazing series against First). Speaking of Dream, I'd imagine his miltary service should be up soon. Hope he returns as he was quite young much like Maru and surely still has many years left in him.
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
The top dogs at the point the article was written were not that good in sc2. The soon-to-be top dogs ended up dominating sc2. The writer just assumed for some reason that flash and jd would keep winning forever but they would've been probably surpassed by the new generation anyway even if the switch didn't happen.
Do you even watch bw? Flash was never surpassed, he is still the best by a mile.
read: "surpassed by the new generation". There isn't a new generation in BW.
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
TaeJa only had success in foreign tournaments, Dark only became good after years on a Kespa team so he's not really an argument for the skill level being just as high Pre-Kespa switch. Dream, ByuN and ByuL had a few strong runs but couldn't keep it up. PartinG, Life and Maru were like the only esf players who were regularly able to compete with the top Kespa players. on the other hand there's a long list of players who went from championship contenters to at best gatekeepers after the Kespa switch like Leenock, Creator, Marineking or DRG.
On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
TaeJa only had success in foreign tournaments, Dark only became good after years on a Kespa team so he's not really an argument for the skill level being just as high Pre-Kespa switch. Dream, ByuN and ByuL had a few strong runs but couldn't keep it up. PartinG, Life and Maru were like the only esf players who were regularly able to compete with the top Kespa players. on the other hand there's a long list of players who went from championship contenters to at best gatekeepers after the Kespa switch like Leenock, Creator, Marineking or DRG.
I'm not saying that there was no impact at all. But it's just plainly wrong to say that pre-kespa SC2 champions were only the guys who couldn't make it in Broodwar. For Taeja: he was successful against top korean competition again and again - including many top tier kespa players. For Dark: it doesn't matter when Dark became good. He is a proof that being an pre-kespa player doesn't say anything about one's skill potential. That kespa was far better off infrastructurally and financially is not the point of this discussion. Dream was great and probably would've gotten back to the top if kespa teams didn't disband. He had a hard time transitioning to LotV but was on an upswing again, but then SKT1 was no more which he obviously wasn't able to cope with.
Let's take a look at the kespa greats: They aren't that stable all together either. soO, Inno and sOs are slumping for quite some time now. Soulkey faded away until he transitioned back to Broodwar. Rogue is also not doing great these days. The only stable right now are Classic, Zest and TY.
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/bird_blue_16.png)
- Mizenhauer
Maru is the first player ever to win Korean StarCraft II's most coveted title three times running. Winning three straight GSL Code S championships might be the most incredible accomplishment in StarCraft II history.![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/S4_2012/mvpsayswhatever.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/misc/sooblizzcon2017.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2018/gslchamps.jpg)
