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As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider:
- 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat
- 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat
- triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness.
From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague.
He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again.
Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
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On October 08 2018 19:28 fronkschnonk wrote:
As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider:
- 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat
- 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat
- triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness.
From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague.
He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again.
Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement.
Did you just say Maru is the only player with 2 periods of dominance? Life famously had 2 and Innovation had like 5.
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On October 08 2018 06:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:35 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 06:20 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 06:11 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:36 Waxangel wrote:On October 08 2018 05:34 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:27 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote:
Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era. People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era. Debatable. In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record. He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive. Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better. Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru. Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain. But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons. If I had just used trophies as the deciding factor I wouldn't have included soO in the list 
I suppose. But in that case what earth what would posses you to rank herO>Maru if the kespa era is what we're discussing.
Considering you talk so highly of INno who barely won more than Maru and was overall much less consistent.
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On October 08 2018 20:14 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 19:28 fronkschnonk wrote:
As far as the GOAT discussion goes, Maru has done quite some stuff consider:
- 5 starleague championships - nobody else ever achieved that feat
- 3 GSLs in a row - nobody else ever achieved that feat
- triple starleague-crown - nobody else ever achieved that feat
Also Maru had two periods of greatness.
From 2013 to 2014 he was the best performing terran for almost a year. After winning OSL he made it to the Ro4 in four of his five premier tournaments in 2013 finishing as the highest ranked terran in all of them. In GSL season 1+2 in 2014 he was the only terran who was able to compete with the dominating protosses, being the only terran at all that got to the playoffs, including another Ro4-finish. And he also stomped nerds at prolague.
He wasn't as strong in 2015 but it's worth to mention that after his SSL-victory in march he was considered a championship contender in every tournament he entered, reaching 3 Starleague playoffs again, including another Ro4-finish. And he stomped nerds at proleague again.
Well, and after a "mediocre" 2016 (where he stomped nerds at proleague even harder) and 2017 came 2018...
The only one who ever had a somewhat comparable period of domination was MVP from august to december in 2011. But only two of his premier tournament wins in that time actually had a really impressive lineup (GSL August and MLG Anaheim) and he "only" got 2nd and then semifinalist in GSL October and november.
Innovation also had a great 2017 and was rightfully called GO2017 and actually surpassed MVP in terms of dominance but his peaks where too scattered to be compared to Maru.
Then we have Life who has the weirdest record being great over the great span of 3 years but only randomly performing super good every now and then with no real pattern to it.
Conclusion: Maru is the only player who managed to be dominant for a recognizable period of time twice and his actual dominance in 2018 is unheard of. I'd say he really can be called GOAT already. Every victory from now on will only solidify that achievement. Did you just say Maru is the only player with 2 periods of dominance? Life famously had 2 and Innovation had like 5.
if he's talking about eras of dominance hen Maru has three, Inno has either two or four depending on whether isolated seasons count, Zest Life and soO all have two.
Edit: actually if you include proleague then Maru was dominating almost nonstop from 2013 through 2016. The only real slump he had was 2017.
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It's all very nice, but can we really dismiss the possibility that Maru is so dominant simply by attrition? Yes, there are other great players still playing, but maybe Maru is just ageing better? He had a good start by being the youngest back in 2010.
I still like watching SC2, but I just can't make myself believe all the hype. A lot of players have moved on and new ones aren't really coming. The lack of teams and sponsors has also surely an impact on performance and so must have simple tiredness if the grind for many. Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
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On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left".
i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left?
the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now).
the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone.
maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
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On October 08 2018 18:09 xelnaga_empire wrote:
I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
Indeed, one of the oft-quoted reasons for this is that Maru has advantages in the 'preparation-tournaments' sense, given his teamhouse situation that other players do not enjoy.
In the weekenders it's a lot more even because the tournament mainly relies on your ability to fend off many different enemies with less preparation with your coach/teammates. It's one of the reasons Serrals achievements are so amazing - he is swatting away the whole competition all year, with little preparation for each individual enemy.
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might be true in retrospect but currently starcraft 2 is the best it has been to watch even with reduced competition.
if we're talking about action and surprising turn of events within a game, i think it can go without saying that it's the best version of sc2 that we have.
the players who left did so years ago almost back before 2015 and before lotv.
the rest of the pack continue to try and compete. and obviously if you're doing so, you feel you still have a chance or results show in practice.
i also don't think the teamhouse regimen argument entirely works. we had people doing their own thing, taking series off the best of the best and upsetting that natural order, and it happened often enough that the question was raised.
had teamhouse environments kept producing better and better players up until this point without a doubt, we'd have maru win less. he gets figured out slower, maybe, but you've seen his performances yourself. they can't be diminished, they're almost otherwordly good at times.
the point is that he's the most dominant force and on that same coin all dominating forces in the history of starcraft ever have their own caveats to their performances.
i don't think it makes it any less exciting, or respectable especially when we're presently at the best time of starcraft 2 for spectators.
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On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
it's not just about the players who completely left but also about those who declined in skill due to age/motivation/lack of teamhouse environment etc.
Inno, Zest, herO and soO are all well past their peak right now just to name a few names.
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On October 08 2018 22:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left it's not just about the players who completely left but also about those who declined in skill due to age/motivation/lack of teamhouse environment etc. Inno, Zest, herO and soO are all well past their peak right now just to name a few names.
maybe, but i think you are getting a little bit ahead of yourself here:
inno and soO also did win almost nothing in 2016 (at least until after blizzcon in innos case), and both had a pretty good 2017, so i wouldn't jugde their overall form by just one year, since both were still a lot better than in 2016.
herO might be true, since he seems to be done with sc2 on a high lvl, i can agree with you here, but while still an awesome player (i always liked watching him), he was never one to dominate over a longer period.
as for zest:
i think he had a pretty decent year, while still not at his former glory, he plays rather well again
and what also has an impact is, that players like TY and Stats for example play on a higher lvl right now than in the kespa days i would say, so there are movements in both directions i would say
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On October 08 2018 20:19 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:49 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 06:35 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 06:20 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 06:11 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:36 Waxangel wrote:On October 08 2018 05:34 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:27 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote:
Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era. People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era. Debatable. In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record. He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive. Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better. Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru. Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain. But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons. If I had just used trophies as the deciding factor I wouldn't have included soO in the list I suppose. But in that case what earth what would posses you to rank herO>Maru if the kespa era is what we're discussing. Considering you talk so highly of INno who barely won more than Maru and was overall much less consistent.
12 to 9 top 4 finishes, 2 to 1 runner ups, 5 to 2 championships. I guess you can argue that a lot of this were foreign tournaments but he also won an SSL and a Kespa Cup with 3 additional korean ro4s which is only slightly worse than Maru's record in korea during that time.
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On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...).
Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in:
Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San, RorO and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently.
Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
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On October 08 2018 22:31 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...). Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in: Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently. Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy
sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example.
and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
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On October 08 2018 22:37 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 22:31 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...). Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in: Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently. Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example. and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end
But would he have lifted the trophy if there were more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages?
That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance.
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On October 08 2018 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 22:37 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 22:31 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...). Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in: Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently. Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example. and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end But would he have lifted the trophy if there are more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance.
maybe yes, maybe he always just plays as good as he has to (he is maru after all), there is no way to tell.
but even in the (according to some in this forum) more competitive days, soO made a couple finals in a row, so it definetly is possible to do it, even if one rates soO higher than maru (which i for one do)
in the end of the day it is pointless to debate these what-ifs anyway, since we will never know.
i just started this conversation, because i think the retirement of top players is just not true at all (but the density of the field was higher, i agree there)
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On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
"The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. Could it be that the players can't compete because they are old, not as fast, nor motivated to train 14 hours a day? Also, you can't just say that the retirement of players who weren't competitors for Maru is irrelevant - they retired often exactly because they stopped being competitive.
This all again boils to my primary point: Maru has not declined and this is his major asset. Barring time travel or standardized capable enough AI (which we did not have, so it's moot) there is no real way to compare skill across different times. What you can compare though is the size of the scene and the total lack of new players.
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On October 08 2018 22:48 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 22:37 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 22:31 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...). Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in: Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently. Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example. and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end But would he have lifted the trophy if there are more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance. maybe yes, maybe he always just plays as good as he has to (he is maru after all), there is no way to tell. but even in the (according to some in this forum) more competitive days, soO made a couple finals in a row, so it definetly is possible to do it, even if one rates soO higher than maru (which i for one do) in the end of the day it is pointless to debate these what-ifs anyway, since we will never know. i just started this conversation, because i think the retirement of top players is just not true at all (but the density of the field was higher, i agree there)
Yeah we don't know if Maru would have been able to do the same if the scene was as fierce as it was back then but it still puts a slight question mark above his achievements. If he won 3 GSLs in a row in 2015 there wouldn't be a question about whether he's the greatest of all time -as it is a GSL win in 2015 is just objectively more impressive than one in 2018.
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On October 08 2018 22:50 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left "The skill level is higher" is just unfounded wishful thinking and that's where this whole argument falls apart. ...
k,
if you know that for sure, than good for you
i for one am playing and watching this game from the very beginning, and i dont see top players doing that amount of stupid things and bad macro nowadays,
i rewatched the mvp comeback against inno the other day, because it was mentioned in an article here, and it was simply painfull to watch, innovation today would never throw this hard
but thats just my personal opinion, if you think you know better than feel free to ignore my obviously wrong views i'd say
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On October 08 2018 22:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 22:48 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 22:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 22:37 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 22:31 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left Maybe there aren't too many that would be overall better than Maru, but there's certainly a lot that have left the scene that could take enough games off Maru to impede his level of dominance by knocking him out early. Code S is generally still pretty cutthroat from the ro8 onward but group stages have gotten a lot easier than they used to be (look at Maru's past ro16 group this season...). Soulkey, Rain, Life and ByuL are the scariest contemporary players that left. But then there's also the gatekeeper class that we've lost in: Dongraegu, Curious, Flash, Bbyong, Bomber, Dream, Myungsik, Marineking, Super, San and probably many more that could have a resurgence like Leenock has done recently. Finally we've got those that have returned to the scene but still need more time in the oven in: PartinG, Taeja, MMA, and Fantasy sorry, but you just listed every player that retired here, i don't see anyone new who could defeat maru any more than TY for example. and yes, the groups (at least ro32) are pretty easy nowadays, but guess what, maru wasn't very strong in any of those this year regardless, so i don't see your point with taking of a map more from him, thats not what made maru dominate this year so hard, it was the fact that he lifted the trophy in the end But would he have lifted the trophy if there are more players capable of taking him out even in the group stages? That Maru wasn't very strong in groups is actually a good point, if the groups were harder there's a good chance he would've been knocked out early with that performance. maybe yes, maybe he always just plays as good as he has to (he is maru after all), there is no way to tell. but even in the (according to some in this forum) more competitive days, soO made a couple finals in a row, so it definetly is possible to do it, even if one rates soO higher than maru (which i for one do) in the end of the day it is pointless to debate these what-ifs anyway, since we will never know. i just started this conversation, because i think the retirement of top players is just not true at all (but the density of the field was higher, i agree there) Yeah we don't know if Maru would have been able to do the same if the scene was as fierce as it was back then but it still puts a slight question mark above his achievements. If he won 3 GSLs in a row in 2015 there wouldn't be a question about whether he's the greatest of all time -as it is a GSL win in 2015 is just objectively more impressive than one in 2018.
sure, one can see it that way,
there were some wanky GSLs back in the day as well in my opinion, and at least from the ro8 on the matches are still on a pretty high lvl these days overall, so it is still impressive what he did (i don't participate in this stupid GOAT stuff, since it is utterly pointless in my opinion)
for me three in a row is impressive, no matter the year, but to each his own
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On October 08 2018 21:45 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 20:39 opisska wrote:
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Maru is currently by miles the best player, but he really is the "the best of what is left". i really read this a lot, but who are those better players that left? the first guard of players who dominated started playing again a little bit, and they can't compete at all (and at least in my opinion thats not just due to the long time they didn't play, the skilllevel is higher right now). the only "retired" player that could still be on top today is Life, but else non of the real top players are gone. maybe one can count Rain as well, since he does very well in BW right now, but other than that i really don't see anyone else how would be better than Maru right now but has left
I wouldn't say you're wrong. It's pretty unlikely that Maru would to far worse if some older guys were still around. Life is around his age and would probably still do rather well - but he fucked up. The more important aspect that questions Maru's position is: there is no newly approaching competition. Aside from the foreign players being swept in, there seem to be pretty much 0 up and coming players. Therefore, with every older player leaving the scene, the competition Maru's facing gets worse. And while these departures were evened out by new blood in the past, that's no longer the case. All top tier players before were - at one point - contested by new players. And that's completely gone by now.
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EPT
