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On October 10 2018 06:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 06:04 Charoisaur wrote:
GSL wins = winning tournaments that have the name GSL in it.
I think it's really stupid that people put emphasis on how many "GSL's" someone has won because there's really no difference between a GSL cup and a Hot6ix/Kespa Cup or a GSL Code S and an OSL/SSL.
The distinction people should make is how many Starleagues/korean weekenders someone has won - the amount of tournaments they won which have the name GSL in it is completely irrelevant for evaluating someones "greatness".
Under this distinction it is:
Maru: 5 Starleagues, 0 weekenders
Inno: 4 Starleagues, 3 weekenders
Mvp: 3 Starleagues, 1 weekender
Zest: 2 Starleagues, 2 weekenders
Life: 2 Starleagues, 1 weekender
I think you can add Blizzcon and IEM Katowice to the weekender category because they are as competitive as a korean weekender. With that Zest and Life have 1 weekender more (I don't count Mvp's Blizzcon for obvious reasons). Ok fair enough, but one shouldn't stop with only titles there either. Also teamleague results are important on top of that. I am really bothered by this simplified method of only looking at titles, as we see soO doesn't even appear in your little list which shows rather well how flawed it is. Also completely neglecting other weekenders is silly as well. I think going with results only is fine, all these players played in so many different tournaments that it balances itself out more or less (how difficult a path was, etc), but then we still need to look at it holistically and not just 1st place finished in a handpicked group of tournaments (weighing them differently is important though for obvious reasons)
This shouldn't be a ranking of how accomplished those players are or something like that. It just annoys me that people talk about how many GSL's someone has won as if there were any meaning to that.
Obviously you have to take much more into consideration for a ranking but this list is a good starting point and 100 times more meaningful than a list of GSL wins.
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what about the intangibles? Inno at best looked like a perfect macro machine, he never looked like he knew ahead of time what his opponents would do and just bop them each and every way, he never looked like he was above the game like prime Mvp did, this is not even fan talk, srsly.
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On October 10 2018 10:28 IshinShishi wrote:
what about the intangibles? Inno at best looked like a perfect macro machine, he never looked like he knew ahead of time what his opponents would do and just bop them each and every way, he never looked like he was above the game like prime Mvp did, this is not even fan talk, srsly.
It's funny, because Serral plays with both of these qualities.
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United States23455 Posts
This is some good stuff.
As an "old school" starcraft 2 fan (I hate myself for even typing that) it would take a lot to convince me that Mvp isn't the sickest GSL player ever. I like that you made a compelling case for Maru/soO/Inno and outlined the strengths and weaknesses of their particular arguments.
BTW having not been following the game for so long leads to fun surprises. Like the fact that Stats has won two GSLs. That blows my mind.
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why would ppl compare WoL and LotV anyway? It's completely different, and skill level is so different.
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On October 10 2018 14:18 Darkhorse wrote:
This is some good stuff.
As an "old school" starcraft 2 fan (I hate myself for even typing that) it would take a lot to convince me that Mvp isn't the sickest GSL player ever. I like that you made a compelling case for Maru/soO/Inno and outlined the strengths and weaknesses of their particular arguments.
BTW having not been following the game for so long leads to fun surprises. Like the fact that Stats has won two GSLs. That blows my mind.
You can't really claim hardcore fandom if you have been absent that long.
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On October 10 2018 16:09 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 14:18 Darkhorse wrote:
This is some good stuff.
As an "old school" starcraft 2 fan (I hate myself for even typing that) it would take a lot to convince me that Mvp isn't the sickest GSL player ever. I like that you made a compelling case for Maru/soO/Inno and outlined the strengths and weaknesses of their particular arguments.
BTW having not been following the game for so long leads to fun surprises. Like the fact that Stats has won two GSLs. That blows my mind. You can't really claim hardcore fandom if you have been absent that long.
Well, neither did he claim that nor are you correct with your statement.
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I don't think Soo should be there. He is a great player but he is not in the same category as MVP/Life/Maru. He is in a tier of his own for his silver achievement, and I'm not saying this in a derogatory way. It's just that Soo is different from them.
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Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference.
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On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference.
well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
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On October 11 2018 05:32 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference. well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
I was around from the beginning of sc2. And ofc anyone who started sc2 for a month can't be competing in the highest level. They definitely needs time, and the level was definitely the most competitive ever in sc2 when Kespa teams were in sc2. In Korea, most of fans claim 'what if Mvp has started sc2 with other kespa players at the same time?'
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On October 11 2018 05:32 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference. well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
From HotS release until the disbandment of Kespa teams the only non-elephant Starleague winners were Life, Maru and ByuN. most of the top esf players either left korea (TaeJa, Bomber, MC, MMA, Mvp) or fell into mediocrity following the Kespa switch (Leenock, Creator, Marineking, DRG)
The elephant in the room article was of course exaggerated but it's undeniable that Kespa players were on average superior to esf players.
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And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
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On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
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On October 12 2018 00:40 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all. Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away.
It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
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On October 12 2018 01:54 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 00:40 opisska wrote:On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all. Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game. Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away. It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
Mvp was a KeSPA BW player, but he was by no means a top BW player. There were many people on KeSPA teams who never accomplished much and he was one of them. That is the key difference between those players and the real "KeSPA switch" when the real top guns came, along with all the teams and infrastructure. Again, this is all explicitly acknowledged in the very article that this whole "elephant" thing comes from and is nothing surprising.
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On October 18 2018 03:36 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 01:54 Fango wrote:On October 12 2018 00:40 opisska wrote:On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:
And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all. Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game. Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away. It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard. Mvp was a KeSPA BW player, but he was by no means a top BW player. There were many people on KeSPA teams who never accomplished much and he was one of them. That is the key difference between those players and the real "KeSPA switch" when the real top guns came, along with all the teams and infrastructure. Again, this is all explicitly acknowledged in the very article that this whole "elephant" thing comes from and is nothing surprising.
Mvp was certainly a top BW player compared to the rest of SC2's elite during 2010-2011? That's the point I was making. Most of the players who dominated post kespa switch (INno, Dear, Rain, Soulkey, herO, sOs etc) weren't exactly gods in broodwar either, but they still ended up being better than most who were playing sc2 from it's beginning.
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France12966 Posts
Not really... there were just more of them so they seemed to do better because statistically more of them would be successful but esf players did pretty fine.
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The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
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EPT
