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On October 08 2018 06:08 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:02 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:37 Psychonian wrote:On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote:
Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title. Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time. You can argue his place as the best player of all time by considering that another player has 7 chamionships in korean tournaments out of which 4 are Starleagues and who also dominated Proleague with 2 titles compared to Maru's 1. The fact INno won two SPL titles compared to Maru's 1 is a pretty bad argument when Maru was better than INno personally.
Maru maybe had a slightly better record (not sure on that since Liquipedia doesn't include playoffs) but Inno winning 2 titles is an important thing to consider as he won his match both times while Maru lost 2015 to Dream.
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On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote:
One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate.
this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
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On October 08 2018 06:11 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:36 Waxangel wrote:On October 08 2018 05:34 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:27 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote:
Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era. People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era. Debatable. In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record. He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive. Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better.
Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
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On October 08 2018 06:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:08 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 06:02 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:37 Psychonian wrote:On October 08 2018 05:24 Fango wrote:
Also it's a damn shame people don't care about OSL and SSL victories. Of which Maru has both, putting him at the only player with 5 starleagues. His OSL was literally a replacement GSL that season as well.
People literally value GSL vs The World and similar weekend events so highly just because they have "GSL" in the title. Between 5 starleagues, his dominance in Proleague, and 3 consecutive GSL championships, I just don't see how you can really argue Maru's place in Starcraft II history as the best player of all time. You can argue his place as the best player of all time by considering that another player has 7 chamionships in korean tournaments out of which 4 are Starleagues and who also dominated Proleague with 2 titles compared to Maru's 1. The fact INno won two SPL titles compared to Maru's 1 is a pretty bad argument when Maru was better than INno personally. Maru maybe had a slightly better record (not sure on that since Liquipedia doesn't include playoffs) but Inno winning 2 titles is an important thing to consider as he won his match both times while Maru lost 2015 to Dream.
Maru may have those a map to Dream in that final, but his playoff results in general were disgusting. If I remember correctly he went 30-13 in playoffs across the three years he competed. Reminiscence of his recent GSL runs where he does just good enough to make ro8 then destroys everyone.
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On October 08 2018 06:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:11 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:36 Waxangel wrote:On October 08 2018 05:34 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:27 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote:
Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era. People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era. Debatable. In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record. He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive. Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better. Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru.
Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain.
But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons.
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On October 08 2018 06:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:20 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 06:11 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:48 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 05:36 Waxangel wrote:On October 08 2018 05:34 Fango wrote:On October 08 2018 05:27 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2018 04:00 Konage47 wrote:
Even during Keeps era, Maru was dominant. He was a top two terran, one equivalent tournaments to gsl in osl and ask, and had the best record in proleague as a TERRAN when terran was consider the weakest race. People forget that he was a top 10 player (top 5 imo) during the Kespa era. People don't forget that but he was still less succesful in the Kespa era than Inno, Life or Zest. The question is if his success now makes him surpass those players despite happening in a less competitive era. Debatable. In korean events he was more successful than someone like Life. He won multiple starleagues and had a ridiculous proleague record. He was the best player on a Proleague winning team, THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE OF KESPA People jabber about 'Kespa era' so much while forgetting what Kespa even cared about in the first place I just meant to say that Inno, Life and Zest had overall more success when the scene was the most competitive. Lets not act like Maru wasn't top 5 during the kespa era though. He won two starleagues (same as INno and Zest), and was better than anyone in proleague. At worst he's barely behind those guys, and depending on the season in question was much better. Just looking at the time frame in question I'd also put soO, herO, sOs and Rain above Maru. Hmmm. soO sure, maybe Rain. But sOs and herO? No chance. Unless you just use number of trophies as a deciding factor and nothing else. Maru was the #1 terran in korea for at least half the seasons.
If I had just used trophies as the deciding factor I wouldn't have included soO in the list 
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He is the greatest among current pros, but not the bonjwa yet. If he wins blizzcon and 2 or more GSLs in a row, then maybe we can call him the true bonjwa. 
And he didn't participate IEM world championship, and he fell in both of GSL Super tournaments and GSL vs World. It doesn't matter how he less practiced there compared to GSL code S and WESG.
We don't know if he is gonna win blizzcon yet. The true bonjwa means, when someone enters a tournaments in full of all the best players, he should be the level of someone who can never lose to anyone in every single tournaments. But, Maru is not someone who can never be beaten.
Rogue won IEM world championship, Stats won Super tournament 1, Serral won GSL vs World, Classic won Super tournament 2. At least, Maru won 3 GSL code S and WESG in this year.
Whee Maru is not a bonjwa yet
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On October 08 2018 06:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote:He is the greatest among current pros, but not the bonjwa yet. If he wins blizzcon and 2 or more GSLs in a row, then maybe we can call him the true bonjwa. And he didn't participate IEM world championship, and he fell in both of GSL Super tournaments and GSL vs World. It doesn't matter how he less practiced there compared to GSL code S and WESG. We don't know if he is gonna win blizzcon yet. The true bonjwa means, when someone enters a tournaments in full of all the best players, he should be the level of someone who can never lose to anyone in every single tournaments. But, Maru is not someone who can never be beaten. Rogue won IEM world championship, Stats won Super tournament 1, Serral won GSL vs World, Classic won Super tournament 2. At least, Maru won 3 GSL code S and WESG in this year. Whee Maru is not a bonjwa yet
Maru did participate in IEM World Championship. He was closely eliminated by Rogue in the Semi finals.
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there was an OSL, an SSL and domination in proleague too. Then he conquered GSL. Maru has done it all
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On October 08 2018 06:18 necrosexy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote:
One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate. this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa)
I don't think it does, the game was less mature, but there was a shit ton more money and competition all around.
I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
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Canada8991 Posts
On October 08 2018 10:03 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 06:18 necrosexy wrote:On October 08 2018 04:17 Cricketer12 wrote:
One thing to consider with Maru. Is he the best if his competion is lesser to that of past champions? That sparks the debate of what the skill of 2018 is compared to past years but it is an interesting debate. this same argument applies to MVP to a greater degree (no Kespa) I don't think it does, the game was less mature, but there was a shit ton more money and competition all around. I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
The problem with Mvp is that people rate him more on what he could have been then what he was, he was only the undisputed best player for a year in 2011 where he won around half of the tournament he entered (which is amazing don't get me wrong), he also had a great 2012 but it was a worst year compare to let say INnovation 2017, SoO 2014 or on par with Zest 2014 or MC 2011 or 2012.
So was Mvp 2011 year the most dominant year by a programmer, well there's a strong case to make for it at least, but it's easy to assume that he would have retain that form without injury but the truth is that we don't have a clue. Mvp had the luxury of "quitting" while he was on top, of at least getting excuse for his lackluster last year and a half, while most other player goes through ups and down, and on top of that almost all of the player of his era ended their career with middling result, we got to watch guys like MarineKing, HerO, Nestea, Squirtle, MC ect.. get mixed results and getting eliminate early in tournaments for years well after they were past their prime, before they decided to trow the towel.
We only remember Mvp when he was winning but if he had played 4 more year in his 2013-2014 form and won only like 1 of 2 tournament in those years we would be a lot more critical of him. The same way if HerO had retired mid 2014 we would probably think of him as one of the very top tier protoss player of all time, but after we got to watch him for 3 painfully mediocre years it's hard to still consider him one of the game great.
Not saying that Mvp isn't the greatest, or that he wouldn't have been even better if given the chance without is injury, but more the fact that Mvp was never given the chance to fail, we always got to excuse his failure (with legitimate reason but there is no reason to be sure that we wouldn't have fail anyway).
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Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore.
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United States33705 Posts
On October 08 2018 13:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore.
You the kinda person who would say Ruth, Pele, Russell are not all-time greats in their respective sports ?
Or to stay inside StarCraft, you think Boxer and Nada are not all-time greats?
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On October 08 2018 14:20 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 13:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore. You the kinda person who would say Ruth, Pele, Russell are not all-time greats in their respective sports ? Or to stay inside StarCraft, you think Boxer and Nada are not all-time greats?
He didn't say he doesn't consider Mvp one of the all-time greats. Just that he isn't top 3.
considering Boxer not a top 3 player is also a reasonable opinion.
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I think that Maru did something far more difficult than Mvp, rather I never liked Maru. I know why I disliked him, but this year he plays so many different styles, and both he and TY are stealing strats from each other. Yes, this year he is finally flexible, and defeated so many favorite players of mine like Dark, Classic, TY... but along with the rushes that I cursed so much in all those years, he overshadowed in long-macrogame any of the players that I've mentioned.
Despite the numbers and statistics that favor the two terrans, the era that was mostly competative was HotS, which did not belonged to them /Maru only dominated in Proleague/. And in this bad era for terrans, Innovation take two GSL's which is still amazing achievement. The games in Code S were so polished and perfect. I still remember a game between DRG and Inno in Ro32 which was so perfect and epic. Soulkey's rise was astonishing, and of course finally the big time fir macro protosses came in a stage where almost all of the players in Code S were competitive. Remember the final between Zest and soO when Zest got almost half full supply and soO got 15k minerals and 5k gaz with full supply and couldn't just take the map because of Zest piece of art game and positioning with air-army. The commentators and analyzers were just not prepared for the rise of Dear, Classic and sOs. sOs were always the underdog and I favorite him for the both Blizzcon's. Yes, none of them was bonjwa, but they played great in most of the time.
So, statistics and numbers can talk, but I cannot confirm who is the best or who is mostly legendary of them all. No emotions should play in this analyzes. But still the article is cool because soO is mentioned in for a damn good reason. On its own logic, he could be the greatest of them all.
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yes, mvp maru and soo, all great legends, great picks. soo may never have won first place in a major tournament, but he is still #1 in many fan's hearts.
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On October 08 2018 15:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2018 14:20 Waxangel wrote:On October 08 2018 13:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Depending on how you view Life's situation, I don't think Mvp is even in the top 3 GOAT ranks anymore. I like Mvp just as much as the next guy, but enough already, he simply doesn't have the longevity to be on top anymore and was surpassed some time ago. I think people underestimate the competition we had pre-Kespa but I also think it's pretty much inarguable that HotS was the hardest era by far. An era in which Mvp barely participated in. Mvp's last relevant performance was during WCS 2013 and no matter how amazing his 2011 was (which actually included a few major hiccups as well), or how he miraculously kept pulling through in 2012, it just isn't enough anymore. You the kinda person who would say Ruth, Pele, Russell are not all-time greats in their respective sports ? Or to stay inside StarCraft, you think Boxer and Nada are not all-time greats? He didn't say he doesn't consider Mvp one of the all-time greats. Just that he isn't top 3. considering Boxer not a top 3 player is also a reasonable opinion.
Well the argument is about the people who made it to the top in the most competitive environment, vs the people who made it to the top and created and shaped that competitive environment in the first place.
In BW there's no disputing FlaSh's GOATness but no one in their right mind would say "meh BoxeR is overrated just look at FlaSh instead" or try to compare them in that way because it's just rude and reeks of an immature lack of understanding of the context of the scene.
I don't think SC2 is very different in this regard.
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I don't know why, but on average, Maru doesn't seem to do well in the "weekend" tournaments where he has little time to prepare against an opponent. There was WESG this year where he won it all. But aside from WESG this year, I don't think he has won a major "weekend" tournament before. He did place 2nd at WESG last year and IEM back in 2015.
Taeja is the polar opposite of Maru. Taeja does really well in "weekend" tournaments but has not done well in tournaments where you have time to prepare. I think Rogue also does well in "weekend" tournaments as I don't think Rogue has won a GSL before (or an SSL/OSL before that).
Blizzcon is another "weekend" tournament so we will see how Maru does. Maybe he can reproduce his WESG "weekend" tournament form from this year at Blizzcon.
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Putting a popularity contest at the same level as a GSL just because it has a "GSL" in the title downgrades this overall well thought article.
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On October 08 2018 10:03 IshinShishi wrote:
I still rate Mvp as the GOAT, but just barely. Maru needs to win Blizzcon convincingly to get the title from me.
For me, Innovation is the GOAT. After Innovation, it's Maru and MVP. After Maru and MVP, it's Life and sOs. But this is just my own personal opinion.
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EPT
