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On May 22 2007 13:48 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback.
Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers.
Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.)
The warpgates and Gateways are different buildings so they won't share the same cooldowns 
I don't think single units popping up every 5 sec within pylon territory would be that effective, would probably be more effective to wait and deploy them in large numbers. Also it's silly making balancing arguments based on units that havn't even been shown yet.
You would get your graphical feedback while the gateways cooldown.
What I'm unsure of though is if all the gateways will cooldown at the same time so you can spawn 16 Zealots every 10 seconds or if they share cooldown so it would become cooldown/gateways=gathered cooldown.
Based on the fact that you seem to actually have to select the buildings as a group to spawn from all of them I think they cooldown individually.
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United States7166 Posts
after seeing this and thinking about the old unit production system for Zerg, I'm eager to see what kind of new system they have
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On May 22 2007 01:48 Klogon wrote:
too late ;D
And good job noticing this in the first place, nagash. We were all bitching at each other without realizing this awesome concept... especially because Blizzard didn't clearly define it for us.
Not awesome...I don't want my glorious Protoss race to become that of the infidel Zerg!!!
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On May 22 2007 13:55 Raist wrote:
after seeing this and thinking about the old unit production system for Zerg, I'm eager to see what kind of new system they have
I suspect the Zerg will have a similar production system as they currently have. It makes sense from a story perspective and is very unique and functional.
The protoss have always warped in their units story wise, now they'll do it game mechanicly too :=)
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Correct me if I am wrong, but with the warping system, could one use a pylon or phase prism right off of a cliff, while the range is on the upper terrain, and still warp units in?
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On May 22 2007 14:03 SayaSP wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with the warping system, could one use a pylon or phase prism right off of a cliff, while the range is on the upper terrain, and still warp units in?
I think you would need line of sight, but yes, that is what the Warp Gates are meant to be able to do.
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On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote:
I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks?
Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before.
Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways.
Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously.
No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot.
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4492 Posts
On May 22 2007 13:48 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback.
Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers.
Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.)
Well, I think it could be balanced fairly well if every Gateway needed an individual upgrade to become a Warp Gate, and that upgrade costing quite a penny. It would also add to the macro aspect, since you'd only have these kind of ground units warping in from Warp Gates, the rest of the units (air, high tech, templars, etc...), plus the regular Gateways would have to be controlled individually... Besides, upgrading the Gateways would take some time I suppose, so it would have a bit of the "I'll add machine shop to my other 4 facts now, and then will start spamming tanks out of them" effect, which also halts the unit production for a while.
Well, if things really work this way, I'm seeing SO many possibilities for different strategies... Would be amazing 
Also, keep in mind - we don't know what T and Z has to say about these new mechanics, so let's wait and see...
-Mynock
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On May 22 2007 14:12 Asta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote:
I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks?
Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before. Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot.
I think the gates will cooldown individually because otherwise as some people have pointed out it would work out very strangely. I think it will be more like with one gate you can teleport in one Zealot every 10 seconds, with 20 gates you can teleport in 20 Zealots every 20 seconds.
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On May 22 2007 13:54 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 13:48 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback.
Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers.
Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.) The warpgates and Gateways are different buildings so they won't share the same cooldowns I don't think single units popping up every 5 sec within pylon territory would be that effective, would probably be more effective to wait and deploy them in large numbers. Also it's silly making balancing arguments based on units that havn't even been shown yet. You would get your graphical feedback while the gateways cooldown. What I'm unsure of though is if all the gateways will cooldown at the same time so you can spawn 16 Zealots every 10 seconds or if they share cooldown so it would become cooldown/gateways=gathered cooldown. Based on the fact that you seem to actually have to select the buildings as a group to spawn from all of them I think they cooldown individually.
Yeah that's my point. It would be annoying having to switch between two different systems.
And yes, single units popping up every 5 seconds could be that effective. I mean Bisu's entire strat against Saviour hinged on his ability to overload his multitasking with more or less single units and sairs. Imagine having to deal with units constantly, it could cripple even a pro player.
Also I think DT is one of the more likely units to be reintroduced, at least looking at the concept art (not to mention the story part of the game...)
I also think that since you need to select all gateways at the same time to spawn they have individual cooldown. Otherwise the best approach would be a sidebar with a timer for all the units, I think that feels a little bit to much like CnC for Blizzard to be entirely comfortable with it.
Still credits to them for coming up with such an awsome idea!
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On May 22 2007 14:19 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 14:12 Asta wrote:On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote:
I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks?
Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before. Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot. I think the gates will cooldown individually because otherwise as some people have pointed out it would work out very strangely. I think it will be more like with one gate you can teleport in one Zealot every 10 seconds, with 20 gates you can teleport in 20 Zealots every 20 seconds.
Ok, nevermind my post above if that's the case. I'm not sure yet though, because you can see the cooldown go down while 16 gates are selected. That doesn't really make sense if each gate has an individual cooldown. On the other hand, it would explain the coincidence that there are 16 zealots ready to be built from 16 gates.
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Pylons/Phase Prisms are imbalanced. Manner pylon not only fucks up your mining operation but it allows zealots to pop up there...
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On May 22 2007 14:23 Asta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 14:19 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 14:12 Asta wrote:On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote:
I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks?
Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before. Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot. I think the gates will cooldown individually because otherwise as some people have pointed out it would work out very strangely. I think it will be more like with one gate you can teleport in one Zealot every 10 seconds, with 20 gates you can teleport in 20 Zealots every 20 seconds. Ok, nevermind my post above if that's the case. I'm not sure yet though, because you can see the cooldown go down while 16 gates are selected. That doesn't really make sense if each gate has an individual cooldown. On the other hand, it would explain the coincidence that there are 16 zealots ready to be built from 16 gates.
You'll be seeing the cooldown of the gate closest to complete a new Zealot I imagine. I think I have seen a similar system somewhere before.
On May 22 2007 14:26 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Pylons/Phase Prisms are imbalanced. Manner pylon not only fucks up your mining operation but it allows zealots to pop up there...
It's silly to claim something is imba when you barely know anything about the game. We only have half the units of one race. That's like 1/6th of the game.
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On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote:
OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock
From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree.
Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae.
Here is how I see it.
Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost).
When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged.
More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same.
Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways.
I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed.
More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times.
Flow Chart:
![[image loading]](http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2406/macrocyclebb6.png)
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This will make the gameplay so much cooler for protoss I can see before myself two different ways to use the warpgates.
If it isnt like Mynock said and all warpgates recharge at the same time then either you build exactly the amount of warpgates/gateways you need and always build out of all of them or you have more gateways/warpgates than you actualy need so that you always have a few standing by ready to spawn in units in expantions under attack etc. The player will have to chose if that extra mobility is worth those extra gateways.
If it is like Mynock said and the warpgates recharge one at a time in b/g time where b is the buildtime of the unit and g is the number of gates. Then players might want to stay near the end of the total gateway cooldown so that they spawn a few units when 18/20 gates are recharged... never using the last 10 gates unless an expo or something is attacked. They can even stay on near 0 minerals and still on a high recharge count like 14/20 when all minerals are used, then cancle a building being built or a research to be able to pump out those last 14 units in case they are urgently needed somewhere.
Either way it will make you have to stay near the limit all the time and always weighing the pros and cons of haveing too many/exactly enough gates and producing units early or saving them in queue.
Other than that I can see lots of ways the prisms and pylons can be used in combat. Think of an enemy expo with a cliff next to it... Fly a prism and land it above the cliff out of his vision then bam... 6 zealots in his mineral line. Or say you are about to attack. Before you are ready to attack let your scouting probe build a hidden pylon outside you opponents base that finnishes just as you attack. That way your reinforcements can spawn right outside his base.
*EDIT* After another look at the video im not so sure I believe its like you say Mynock :S The time you get to see the recharge after the last stalker has been built is like 0,5 sec. I cant judge if the recharge is moving faster or slower there than when the 16 gates are selected.
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On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote:
OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart:
If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing.
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On May 22 2007 01:57 niteReloaded wrote:
this is typical for blizzard, everyone is bitching about "macro not being macro if u can select multiple buildings". Then they come with this briliant idea and everyone is like :o
They come with the solution from a totally different angle and im loving it.
<3
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On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote:
OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing.
I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct.
~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate
There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view
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On May 22 2007 15:54 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote:
OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing. I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct. Show nested quote +
~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate
There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view
You two are not contradicting eachother...
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I thought he just said I was :O
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EPT
