Protoss - New method of Production? - Page 7

Amnesty

United States2054 Posts

May 23 2007 12:05 GMT

#121

This sounds a lot similar to Red Alert produciton (not sure about RA2 and later since I barely played those and can't remember).

Basically, say you have say 3 war factories. You can't produce 3 tanks at a time, but one war fact will produce tanks 3x faster.

It would be kinda neat to have terran / protoss build in different ways to further their uniqueness.

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

May 23 2007 12:12 GMT

#122

On May 23 2007 21:05 Amnesty wrote:
This sounds a lot similar to Red Alert produciton (not sure about RA2 and later since I barely played those and can't remember).

Basically, say you have say 3 war factories. You can't produce 3 tanks at a time, but one war fact will produce tanks 3x faster.

It would be kinda neat to have terran / protoss build in different ways to further their uniqueness.

That's a system I don't want to see anywhere near starcraft and I don't think that's how it will work out, some of the variations mentioned later on in the thread seem much more likely to me.

HungerForMore

Afghanistan420 Posts

May 23 2007 14:57 GMT

#123

This is really cool, I didn't notice any of this thanks for sharing.

I really wonder the others races will produce units. They will probably also have there own unique way.

KwarK

United States44322 Posts

May 26 2007 13:45 GMT

#124

This seems quite similar to the current Zerg system to me. As time goes by the hatchery produces larvae until you choose to spend them in which case they morph into units. And you're suggesting that as time goes by the gateway will gain power until you choose to pay for a unit.
What we already have for zerg and numbers (ie not building anything for a while = 3 larvae per hatch) is being suggested for protoss and tech (not producing a unit allows you to create one instantly, the longer you wait, the better the unit).
Sounds pretty sexy but not that original. Even so, I'd like to see it.

Doctorasul

Romania1145 Posts

May 26 2007 17:04 GMT

#125

The difference is the unit being selected for production in this case will appear on the map almost instantly after it has been chosen, whereas with the larvae you have to wait a while for it to morph.

This method of production will probably not be applied to all toss units, as it would make more powerful units a lot easier to get than before, even without changing building time or cost. Let me make it more clear with an example.

Let's assume the Mothership takes 5 minutes to "build" or "warp in" and costs 2000-2000 (bare with me). In the BW style of unit production when a player decides to go for the Mothership, he is investing a huge amount of money and not seeing any of it be of use to him for a full 5 minutes. It is assumed because of the high cost that he has already setup a big economy. During these 5 minutes he is in a much more vulnerable position than before and must survive to the point that the investment manifests itself.

If you implement what we've seen so far in the video to the Mothership, the player will invest in the production building (presumably it is a lot cheaper than 2000-2000) several minutes before setting up a big economy (or hitting late game) and just wait for the countdown, with only the cost of the production building as a handicap. His only task is now to make sure he accumulates 2000-2000 when the countdown reaches 5 minutes (this can be done by idling all buildings for say.. 20 seconds - not particularly handicapping) and he has his brand new Mothership instantly.

To summarize, the new building method handicaps the player for the duration of the warp-in time only with the cost of the production building, whereas the classic style, by demanding the money first, creates a handicap of the same duration but with the added cost of the unit. This is why I speculate it will only be applied to relatively cheap units.

Doctorasul

Romania1145 Posts

May 26 2007 18:18 GMT

#126

To account for the warp-in animation of the Mothership we can imagine a way for the classic method to be disguised in the new one: the production building would cost a very considerable amount of resources (instead of the unit), the ship itself would be cheap and the production building is destroyed if the Mothership is destroyed (or production buildings can create only one ship for the duration of the game). This works well with not being able to have more than one ship at a time but is fundamentally the same method as the one we are used to in BW.

Blacklizard

United States1194 Posts

May 26 2007 18:22 GMT

#127

On May 22 2007 18:00 DrainX wrote:
I wonder if you have to select where zealots made in normal gateways spawn or if they just spawn outside the gate when you hit the zealot hotkey. If they do then it would get easier. Then just group all your gates to 0 and just press 0 and spam z if the icon isnt on cooldown. That could easily be done in combat. Warpgates would be harder to use fast since you have to go back to a pylon you controll to make the units spawn.

Yup, if it works like we think, old gateways sound a great deal better. I can see having warpgates for defense only... hmm what toss units are good for defense. High templar, dark temps, and reavers. High Templar need mana... so warpgates are no good there. Reavers (Colossi?) are robotic. OK, now I know why Blizzard said they used warpgates to warp in zealots between buildings to defend against zerglings. Well I guess it'd be good to warp immortals on top of siege tanks... although I doubt they'd be in pylon range. Warp gates + Island maps I guess.

Warpgates + siege prisms used for offense? That's going to be one hell of a slow drop. I guess that's the point... they don't want it too good. I sure hope arbiters are in the game (doubt it though).

Note that it took the demo user about 14 seconds to warp in 16 zealots. Not sure if it can be done much faster... and it would probably take an extra second or two if you were warping in more than one type of unit. Wow, that's a LOT of time to spend getting units at end game where you could attack 3 places at once in that timespan (in SC). And as for defense... wow, I'm pretty sure you can walk across a whole map in 15 seconds (I just checked... you can). I can't imagine spending time like that on summoning units. Yeah, there will probably be a small limit to how many warp gates you actually want.

OK, the one other place it looks good is for "leftover" money. If you are about to micro a battle, you queue up some men in regular gateways. When you come back from the fight, your men are popping out... but you have 400 minerals to spare. Ok, warp in 4 zealots really quick (well not that quick, but you know) and add them to the group you are moving out.

DrainX

Sweden3187 Posts

May 26 2007 19:24 GMT

#128

Sure this new way of building units can be verry favorable for protoss in many ways. But look at protoss way of building buildings atm. A single probe can spawn in an entire base within a minute if you have the resources, this is much more effective than zergs or terrans way of building but its still a feature that has been balanced into the game. I dont think this will be any different.

Lisk

Latvia376 Posts

May 26 2007 21:06 GMT

#129

Why can't queues be possible with the new system?

DrainX

Sweden3187 Posts

May 26 2007 22:20 GMT

#130

On May 27 2007 06:06 Lisk wrote:
Why can't queues be possible with the new system?

Because that wouldnt make sense. When you build a unit it spawns right away. The only way queues would work was if one gateway could load up more than one potential unit... but that still wouldnt be a queue.

MarcX

Netherlands772 Posts

May 26 2007 23:18 GMT

#131

You have to think about the story aspect too. The following is my theory, mostly based on what I read here.

The gateways just "charge" until they have enough energy to open a spatial rift.

More energy is required to open a large spatial rift, so this is why a longer charge time is necessary for stalkers than for zealots.

It is unknown if energy resets back to zero after building a unit.

I do not think the energy pool is shared (as per Mynock's suggestion). I think each gateway will have to draw from it's own energy pool to create a spatial rift.

When having multiple gateways selected, the counter next to each unit shows how many gateways have enough energy to warp in that unit.

It is unknown what gateway is used when you build a unit like this. Perhaps a random one, perhaps closest one, perhaps the one first built, perhaps the one first selected in creating this selection, perhaps the one with least energy.. I think we just don't know.

Seems like a fun system, at least.

Also, keep in mind that they admitted to cheating in the demo, perhaps removing cool-down and/or unit costs.

Stegosaur

Netherlands1231 Posts

May 27 2007 01:03 GMT

#132

Hey! First post here, just thought I'd register and add something.
Quote taken from starcraft2.com (shoot me for now knowing how to quote decently

)

However, protoss forces moving through a gateway must emerge in close proximity to the structure, whereas those summoned via a warp gate can be projected to any part of the battlefield that lies within the psionic matrix.

Personally, I think it's more plausible you build units the normal way, click > progress > finished, and they get stuck inside the warpgate queue untill you're ready to deploy them? Just a random thought :>

Tiku

18 Posts

May 27 2007 02:07 GMT

#133

On May 27 2007 10:03 Stegosaur wrote:
Personally, I think it's more plausible you build units the normal way, click > progress > finished, and they get stuck inside the warpgate queue untill you're ready to deploy them? Just a random thought :>

Then why is the 100 minerals per Zealot payed for every time one is warped in? And why can you see the timer on each of the units the Warp Gates can produce (Immortal, Stalker, Zealot) start after all units are warped in?

nijigasumi

Philippines6 Posts

May 30 2007 14:06 GMT

#134

wait, so that means if you don't keep on warping units in, you're wasting production time..?

mahnini

United States6862 Posts

May 30 2007 14:13 GMT

#135

On May 30 2007 23:06 nijigasumi wrote:
wait, so that means if you don't keep on warping units in, you're wasting production time..?

Yes, it requires you to constantly produce units.

lololol

5198 Posts

May 30 2007 15:58 GMT

#136

The warp in animation looks way too fast and there is a minimap ping when the unit finishes warping, while resources are taken when warping is started, also units at the start of a warp in have low hp/shield and build it up as a building does in sc1, so it's pretty sure that the warp in is not gonna be so fast as in the demo.

Doctorasul

Romania1145 Posts

May 30 2007 18:20 GMT

#137

The animation lasts 5 seconds. Too fast for what? I don't understand how the gradually increasing hp/shield and when you pay for the unit leads you to think the animation is going to be slowed down. Maybe I'm missing something, please elaborate a bit.

I see your point of the ping being useless in this situation, but I find it more likely it's a remnant from the other "normal" production buildings, where it is very useful.