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Aight, this region-lock talk has run its course. Thanks for keeping things civil, but it's time to get back on topic.
Only preliminaries related talk, please. |
On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
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Can someone actually explain to me what prevents a person with a working visa in EU/NA from playing in GSL?
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On March 27 2018 02:51 Ej_ wrote:
Can someone actually explain to me what prevents a person with a working visa in EU/NA from playing in GSL?
They can play at GSL (literally anyone can as long as you are Masters or above I think). However, they need to be physically in Korea (Seoul) to play at the studio. There is no online thing for GSL. GSL is a "long-term" (3 months long or so) event unlike IEM or DH which is 4 days/weekend event. It can be expensive/difficult to live in Seoul all by yourself. However, with the Korean house established already, it becomes much easier these days just to join the house. Frankly, it becomes much easier to find a place to live temporarily in Seoul these days as long as you have some friends helping you out a bit. ZBG was living there for a couple months last year just because she wanted it. No big deal for her.
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So isn't it literally the same situation that the foreigners are in? Why are people acting like it was any different after getting the visa? The Koreans also already have families and friends there so they don't even need to book the house
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On March 27 2018 03:01 Ej_ wrote:
So isn't it literally the same situation that the foreigners are in? Why are people acting like it was any different after getting the visa? The Koreans also already have families and friends there so they don't even need to book the house
OK. There is a huge difference between getting a visitor visa from Korea to live there for 6 months AKA what Scarlett and other foreigners do vs getting a work visa (P1) in the US (or equivalent visa in EU). It is easy to get a visitor visa to come to Korea. No big deal. Getting a working visa in US and EU is very difficult. It can take a year or longer. TRUE took almost a year. I'm speaking out of experiences here as I'm currently living in the US with a working visa. A visitor visa in the US will not cut it as you can't work in the US under visitor visa. I don't know how much it costs to get a visitor visa in Korea but I bet like 200 bucks max. A working visa in the US will take at least $1000 + lawyer fees. The financial and time commitment for a working visa in the US is almost too much to bear. That is why it is unfair for Koreans.
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Yes, I know and realize that. I was targeting this excerpt:
On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
Which greatly confused me, but now I'm sure it's just wrong lol
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On March 27 2018 03:12 Ej_ wrote:Yes, I know and realize that. I was targeting this excerpt: Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
Which greatly confused me, but now I'm sure it's just wrong lol
I'm not familiar with the requirement that Fango mentioned. I think if Korean players obtain working visas in the US, they should be able to compete in both GSL and WCS events. I may be wrong but that's my impression.
Anyway, I think TRUE is the last Korean that obtained a working visa to compete overseas.The SC2 scene in general becomes much smallers in term of events compared to the past. It is hard to justify the financial commitment to obtain a visa to compete in like 4 events a year. Back in the day, we had quite a few Koreans living overseas including Teaja, LQ HerO, ForGG, MMA, Polt and Violet. The region-lock only discourages the visa thing even further,
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France12750 Posts
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice.
It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
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On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote:
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice.
It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
Having to earn the money on an even playing field and failing to do that is not getting the short end of the stick.
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On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote:
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice.
It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
I respect your opinion and all but I find it is anti-competition to exclude Koreans because they are better and winning more. What kind of competition mindset is that? SC2 is a competitive 1v1 game. Let the best wins regardless where they are from. What is up with all the hype about Neeb and Serral as Korean killers or whatever when Koreans can't even compete vs them in WCS events?
I'm gonna stop here because this conversation is kind of out of scope of this post. It is getting out of hands. Franky, Blizzard is not gonna change anything so it is pointless to even complain about region-lock. It is their business decision so they will stick with it to the grave.
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for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
I cheered against Noregret, Major,Scarlett, and will continue to do so systematically for every for in kor event.
On March 27 2018 03:36 Vutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote:
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice.
It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest. I respect your opinion and all but I find it is anti-competition to exclude Koreans because they are better and winning more. What kind of competition mindset is that? SC2 is a competitive 1v1 game. Let the best wins regardless where they are from. What is up with all the hype about Neeb and Serral as Korean killers or whatever when Koreans can't even compete vs them in WCS events? I'm gonna stop here because this conversation is kind of out of scope of this post. It is getting out of hands. Franky, Blizzard is not gonna change anything so it is pointless to even complain about region-lock. It is their business decision so they will stick with it to the grave.
totally agree with that
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On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote:
for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
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On March 27 2018 03:48 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote:
for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
Direction
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On March 27 2018 03:48 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote:
for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
Less flying for the non-Koreans who can live in Korea than the Koreans who can't live in Korea.
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France12750 Posts
On March 27 2018 03:31 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote:
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice.
It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest. Having to earn the money on an even playing field and failing to do that is not getting the short end of the stick.
Even playing field?
You realize that koreans have had better infrastructure for esports for a long time and that as long as foreigners can't speak fluent korean and live in korea they won't catch up in sc2?
So no I don't think it's an even playing field
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On March 27 2018 03:48 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote:
for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
What he meant was the amount of flying you need to do living in the US and competing in GSL. GSL is months-long and happens every week (1 day). You basically have to fly back and forth if you live in the US and compete in Korea. Foreigners living in Korea just need to stay in Korea to compete for GSL and then flying to the US/EU and compete for a weekend and fly back. No one would sponsor you a working visa in the US/EU so you can stay in Korea most of the time and only flying to US/EU to compete for a few weekends.
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On March 27 2018 03:59 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:31 Boggyb wrote:On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote:
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice.
It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest. Having to earn the money on an even playing field and failing to do that is not getting the short end of the stick. Even playing field? You realize that koreans have had better infrastructure for esports for a long time and that as long as foreigners can't speak fluent korean and live in korea they won't catch up in sc2? So no I don't think it's an even playing field
"koreans had better infrastructure for esports for a long time"
They don't anymore. There is no more teams in Korea, no KeSPA for SC2 either. JAGW is the only team left which has like 5 players. Korean players have no salary except tournament prizes. Some players have joined non-Korean teams but only a few top players. Foreigners have like a ton of teams (plus Blizzard is on their side and the support from them as well). Do you think Blizzard will make up random qualifier events AKA Challengers to give money out to Koreans like they do for foreigners?
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On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
I think one of the reasons was that TRUE was not strong enough to compete in the GSL. You look at his results in the year pre-WCS and his results during WCS, and he's making a lot more money now.
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
Third, The majority of ro32 players this season are wealthy enough that they can afford the costs to obtain a visa. There's only 16 players who don't make the ro32, and the ones who aren't as prominent are: Creator, Bunny, Billowy, Ragnarok, Keen, jjakji, Hurricane, and Trust. Slightly more prominent are players like Impact and Losira. The rest of the players in the ro32 are wealthy enough to be able to foot the visa costs, and the ro16 players do well in Korea.
True, living costs are more expensive, but remember, NoRegret was living in Korea for a while before they actually got the team house stuff sorted out, and in one video, he talks about how he was almost out of money. Now that they're funded, it's a lot easier, but earlier on, it was only the top foreigners who would live there, and remember, a lot of the people living in the foreign team house are top foreigners who have earned a decent chunk of money and who can afford to stay there.
So for the individual Korean to go to the US/EU, yes it would be expensive, but if they get funding for a team house, and if multiple Koreans wanted to go, then it would be a lot less expensive. The cost and time both to obtain a visa and also live in a WCS circuit region is more expensive, but from a teamhouse/shared living model, it's mainly the visa cost that is the issue, and I do think that most ro32 Koreans would be able to foot a 1000$ bill. It wouldn't be pleasant, but I think they would be able to pay for it.
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France12750 Posts
It doesn't matter that they don't have it anymore, because the network is already here so the players know each other and can have multiple practice partners / players to speak to.
By the way JAGW players recently won a shit ton of money so having a team still seems to help
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On March 27 2018 04:15 Poopi wrote:
It doesn't matter that they don't have it anymore, because the network is already here so the players know each other and can have multiple practice partners / players to speak to.
By the way JAGW players recently won a shit ton of money so having a team still seems to help
The WCS Circuit players can't practice with each other? I suppose they don't have any real Terran players, but that's their fault.
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EPT
