Offline qualifiers for 2018 GSL Super Tournament I will be held on March 26th And Offline qualifiers for 2018 GSL Season 2 will be held on March 27th and 28th
Qualifiers Application Period (Super Tournament and GSL) - March 14th, 2018 - March 21st, 2018 Wednesday 23:59PM (KST)
Qualifiers Offline Event: GSL Super Tournament I: March 26th(Monday) GSL Season 2: March 27th(Tuesday) and March 28th(Wednesday) ※ Participate in both days with one apply Location: AfreecaTV PC Bang, Jamsilsaenae Station, Seoul
Participation Requirements: - Must be at least 12 years old - Need to have a SC2 Battle.net account (cannot use your family's or friends' accounts) - Masters league players (Any Region)
Qualifiers for GSL Super Tournament Match Format: - 26th (Mon): Double Elimination Bo3
Qualifiers for GSL Match Format: - Bo3 - 27th (Tue): Double Elimination - 28th (Wed): Ro.8 Single Tournament / Ro.4 Dual Tournament
- 27th (Tue) 14 Players to advance to Code S - 28th (Wed) 14 Players to advance to Code S - If you fail the first qualifying round on Tuesday(27th), you will automatically participate in the 2nd day qualifying round on Wednesday(28th)
Map Pool (Super Tournament and GSL) - 1Set Blackpink - 2Set Neon Violet Square - 3Set Catalyst
Please send the following information to gsl@afreecatv.com for your application. - Full Name: - Birth date: - Country: - Phone Number and Skype ID: - Battle.Net SCII Account: - Ladder Score: - StarCraft II Character Name: - Team: - Race: - Email address:
Because the timing of the two qualifying matches is similar, you will be accepted for the qualification application at a time. If you only participate in one of the qualifiers, please write down the content
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at gsl@afreecatv.com
Seriously though, what actually happened to Cure? How is he unable to qualify for literally anything? He still has the JinAir teamhouse to fall back on for practice/advice. He used to be a favorite of mine especially in proleague where he seemed to step up and play some fantastic games. I'd rather see him quit / get cut then continue this streak of being terrible.
On March 08 2018 22:44 Kovzirg wrote: Seriously though, what actually happened to Cure? How is he unable to qualify for literally anything? He still has the JinAir teamhouse to fall back on for practice/advice. He used to be a favorite of mine especially in proleague where he seemed to step up and play some fantastic games. I'd rather see him quit / get cut then continue this streak of being terrible.
Last year he tried to go full time overwatch iirc. Maybe he's still doing that? Surely if he was back to full time sc2 he should be a lot better. Parting and MMA more time away and they're already improving.
On March 08 2018 20:40 Waxangel wrote: Yay, another tournament for Koreans to mash foreigners in the best StarCraft II players in the world to show their skills in!
On March 26 2018 11:47 Boggyb wrote: Good luck to Creator, sOs, Rogue, all the Terran players (minus ByuN), and everyone playing a non-Korean in the GSL Super Tournament qualifiers!
On March 26 2018 16:09 Elentos wrote: Can't believe Dark beat Has so quickly
I knew Has' ZvP had been awful of late (and mostly revolves around poorly executed cannon rushes), but it's kinda impressive that he has lost to players I've never heard of (who even are Vanya and Bee?).
I kinda want TRUE to make it through the qualifiers if only because it would add another dimension to all the talk about foreigners "stealing" spots in WCS KR tournaments.
I would have laughed my ass off if neither TY nor sOs reached the winners match of group B. I bet sOs and KeeN got stuck in some stupid raven vs tempest stalemate on NVS for 20 minutes.
On March 26 2018 19:01 ShAd_1337 wrote: true did beat sOs and ty? what the hell
sOs is the lord of chaos. Beating sOs isn't a big achievement, as he's the chaotic dark lord. He let himself to be beaten so he can dominate the next tournament. Or not. Nobody knows what transpires in his head. he has plans within plans within the plans of others. The spice must flow! oops, wrong universe
On March 26 2018 19:01 ShAd_1337 wrote: true did beat sOs and ty? what the hell
sOs is the lord of chaos. Beating sOs isn't a big achievement, as he's the chaotic dark lord. He let himself to be beaten so he can dominate the next tournament. Or not. Nobody knows what transpires in his head. he has plans within plans within the plans of others. The spice must flow! oops, wrong universe
Anyway, sOs is a very unstable player. IMO
He often plays a high risk high reward style, which always will result in unstable results.
On March 26 2018 19:01 ShAd_1337 wrote: true did beat sOs and ty? what the hell
sOs is the lord of chaos. Beating sOs isn't a big achievement, as he's the chaotic dark lord. He let himself to be beaten so he can dominate the next tournament. Or not. Nobody knows what transpires in his head. he has plans within plans within the plans of others. The spice must flow! oops, wrong universe
Anyway, sOs is a very unstable player. IMO
He often plays a high risk high reward style, which always will result in unstable results.
Yup, sometimes he just needs some time to find a new way to unleash chaos
Excited for Zest fixing his PvZ seeing as he managed to beat Rogue, he could be a big contender for victory seeing as his PvT and PvP have been top tier lately.
Other than TRUE qualifying, there are no really horrifying results. I'd have liked to see a few different players than the ones who qualified, but I can't complain too much since the racial distribution is decent and there are no non-Koreans. (Yeah, TRUE is a WCS Circuit player, but he had to give up playing for most of the 2016 season to accomplish the switch. That's a lot more to give up than just the cost of a plane ticket and accommodations.)
On March 26 2018 22:25 Boggyb wrote: Other than TRUE qualifying, there are no really horrifying results. I'd have liked to see a few different players than the ones who qualified, but I can't complain too much since the racial distribution is decent and there are no non-Koreans. (Yeah, TRUE is a WCS Circuit player, but he had to give up playing for most of the 2016 season to accomplish the switch. That's a lot more to give up than just the cost of a plane ticket and accommodations.)
Yeah...so TRUE actually played in season 1 and 2 of the GSL, failed to qualify for SSL season 1 and 2, and then won in Montreal. If you didn't like Scarlett or Special or any foreigner because they played in both regions (except they didn't take a top prize away from the resident group), then you really shouldn't like TRUE being here.
TRUE didn't have to give up playing whatsoever and switched to a weaker region.
On March 26 2018 22:25 Boggyb wrote: Other than TRUE qualifying, there are no really horrifying results. I'd have liked to see a few different players than the ones who qualified, but I can't complain too much since the racial distribution is decent and there are no non-Koreans. (Yeah, TRUE is a WCS Circuit player, but he had to give up playing for most of the 2016 season to accomplish the switch. That's a lot more to give up than just the cost of a plane ticket and accommodations.)
If you’re against foreigners playing in Korea but TRUE is OK that’s a pretty serious double standard.
On March 27 2018 00:34 Fango wrote: How on earth did TRUE and Trust qualify over TY and Bunny? Did anyone see what the games looked like? Because those are results that shouldn't happen.
No, nothing seen. But honestly Trust had a very good run and probably just caught fire (beat Elazer, won a map vs Dark, beat Dear, beat Bunny and PvZ is his weakest match-up). TRUE is a pretty unstable player, but on a good day it's not too surprising he can take a series off TY who is very vulnerable against Zerg. If TRUE lost to sOs in the round after he'd probably have lost the rematch to TY, but no dice. After sOs lost to TRUE it was clear TY wasn't gonna qualify.
On March 26 2018 22:25 Boggyb wrote: Other than TRUE qualifying, there are no really horrifying results. I'd have liked to see a few different players than the ones who qualified, but I can't complain too much since the racial distribution is decent and there are no non-Koreans. (Yeah, TRUE is a WCS Circuit player, but he had to give up playing for most of the 2016 season to accomplish the switch. That's a lot more to give up than just the cost of a plane ticket and accommodations.)
If you’re against foreigners playing in Korea but TRUE is OK that’s a pretty serious double standard.
TRUE gets a pass because he gives me the ability to say that Zerg is so easy that you can F2 your way to the WCS Global Finals.
But more seriously, I wish TRUE weren't playing in Korean events. Players should be forced to choose a region and play only in it outside of specifically designated world wide events. TRUE making it is only 75% as bad as a non-Korean since he at least can't live in Korea for most of the year while flying out to WCS Circuit events.
On March 26 2018 22:25 Boggyb wrote: Other than TRUE qualifying, there are no really horrifying results. I'd have liked to see a few different players than the ones who qualified, but I can't complain too much since the racial distribution is decent and there are no non-Koreans. (Yeah, TRUE is a WCS Circuit player, but he had to give up playing for most of the 2016 season to accomplish the switch. That's a lot more to give up than just the cost of a plane ticket and accommodations.)
If you’re against foreigners playing in Korea but TRUE is OK that’s a pretty serious double standard.
TRUE gets a pass because he gives me the ability to say that Zerg is so easy that you can F2 your way to the WCS Global Finals.
But more seriously, I wish TRUE weren't playing in Korean events. Players should be forced to choose a region and play only in it outside of specifically designated world wide events. TRUE making it is only 75% as bad as a non-Korean since he at least can't live in Korea for most of the year while flying out to WCS Circuit events.
To be fair, it's forever until the next main WCS tournament. The size of that gap is so big I understand he'd go to Korea and play there.
On March 27 2018 00:34 Fango wrote: How on earth did TRUE and Trust qualify over TY and Bunny? Did anyone see what the games looked like? Because those are results that shouldn't happen.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
LOL. I feel the same way. The ridiculous region-lock is killing Korean SC2 scene. Then, foreigners just move to live in the house in KR and complete at Korean events like no one's business. At this rate, foreigner may actually win GSL eventually as top Korean players will need to go to military soon. No new blood in Korean scene whatsoever. Look like SSL is not coming back so GSL is the only thing left in Korea. It is just sad.
P/S: I give TRUE a pass on competing in Korean events as he is KOREAN after all.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
Are the non-Koreans in Korea even on work visas? I suspect no since that should impact their residency for WCS Circuit events, but I'm basing that on nothing concrete. If not, the difference between the process is monumental. Even if they are on work visas, I imagine it is significantly easier since it isn't a permanent residency thing for most of them.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
On March 27 2018 02:51 Ej_ wrote: Can someone actually explain to me what prevents a person with a working visa in EU/NA from playing in GSL?
They can play at GSL (literally anyone can as long as you are Masters or above I think). However, they need to be physically in Korea (Seoul) to play at the studio. There is no online thing for GSL. GSL is a "long-term" (3 months long or so) event unlike IEM or DH which is 4 days/weekend event. It can be expensive/difficult to live in Seoul all by yourself. However, with the Korean house established already, it becomes much easier these days just to join the house. Frankly, it becomes much easier to find a place to live temporarily in Seoul these days as long as you have some friends helping you out a bit. ZBG was living there for a couple months last year just because she wanted it. No big deal for her.
So isn't it literally the same situation that the foreigners are in? Why are people acting like it was any different after getting the visa? The Koreans also already have families and friends there so they don't even need to book the house
On March 27 2018 03:01 Ej_ wrote: So isn't it literally the same situation that the foreigners are in? Why are people acting like it was any different after getting the visa? The Koreans also already have families and friends there so they don't even need to book the house
OK. There is a huge difference between getting a visitor visa from Korea to live there for 6 months AKA what Scarlett and other foreigners do vs getting a work visa (P1) in the US (or equivalent visa in EU). It is easy to get a visitor visa to come to Korea. No big deal. Getting a working visa in US and EU is very difficult. It can take a year or longer. TRUE took almost a year. I'm speaking out of experiences here as I'm currently living in the US with a working visa. A visitor visa in the US will not cut it as you can't work in the US under visitor visa. I don't know how much it costs to get a visitor visa in Korea but I bet like 200 bucks max. A working visa in the US will take at least $1000 + lawyer fees. The financial and time commitment for a working visa in the US is almost too much to bear. That is why it is unfair for Koreans.
Yes, I know and realize that. I was targeting this excerpt:
On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote: And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
Which greatly confused me, but now I'm sure it's just wrong lol
On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote: And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
Which greatly confused me, but now I'm sure it's just wrong lol
I'm not familiar with the requirement that Fango mentioned. I think if Korean players obtain working visas in the US, they should be able to compete in both GSL and WCS events. I may be wrong but that's my impression.
Anyway, I think TRUE is the last Korean that obtained a working visa to compete overseas.The SC2 scene in general becomes much smallers in term of events compared to the past. It is hard to justify the financial commitment to obtain a visa to compete in like 4 events a year. Back in the day, we had quite a few Koreans living overseas including Teaja, LQ HerO, ForGG, MMA, Polt and Violet. The region-lock only discourages the visa thing even further,
Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice. It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote: Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice. It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
Having to earn the money on an even playing field and failing to do that is not getting the short end of the stick.
On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote: Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice. It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
I respect your opinion and all but I find it is anti-competition to exclude Koreans because they are better and winning more. What kind of competition mindset is that? SC2 is a competitive 1v1 game. Let the best wins regardless where they are from. What is up with all the hype about Neeb and Serral as Korean killers or whatever when Koreans can't even compete vs them in WCS events?
I'm gonna stop here because this conversation is kind of out of scope of this post. It is getting out of hands. Franky, Blizzard is not gonna change anything so it is pointless to even complain about region-lock. It is their business decision so they will stick with it to the grave.
for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
I cheered against Noregret, Major,Scarlett, and will continue to do so systematically for every for in kor event.
On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote: Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice. It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
I respect your opinion and all but I find it is anti-competition to exclude Koreans because they are better and winning more. What kind of competition mindset is that? SC2 is a competitive 1v1 game. Let the best wins regardless where they are from. What is up with all the hype about Neeb and Serral as Korean killers or whatever when Koreans can't even compete vs them in WCS events?
I'm gonna stop here because this conversation is kind of out of scope of this post. It is getting out of hands. Franky, Blizzard is not gonna change anything so it is pointless to even complain about region-lock. It is their business decision so they will stick with it to the grave.
On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote: for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote: for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote: for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
Less flying for the non-Koreans who can live in Korea than the Koreans who can't live in Korea.
On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote: Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice. It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
Having to earn the money on an even playing field and failing to do that is not getting the short end of the stick.
Even playing field? You realize that koreans have had better infrastructure for esports for a long time and that as long as foreigners can't speak fluent korean and live in korea they won't catch up in sc2? So no I don't think it's an even playing field
On March 27 2018 03:39 Mun_Su wrote: for having a foreign visa you need to live in foreign land. thus you can't compete in GSL, It's way too much expensive to fly back for each GSL round. So if you are Kor, you have to chose. If you are For, you just have to found a place to stay in korea, and then since for tournaments are weekenders and not starleague, you can compete in For and Kor tournaments.
What's the difference between flying to Korea from America and flying to America from Korea?
What he meant was the amount of flying you need to do living in the US and competing in GSL. GSL is months-long and happens every week (1 day). You basically have to fly back and forth if you live in the US and compete in Korea. Foreigners living in Korea just need to stay in Korea to compete for GSL and then flying to the US/EU and compete for a weekend and fly back. No one would sponsor you a working visa in the US/EU so you can stay in Korea most of the time and only flying to US/EU to compete for a few weekends.
On March 27 2018 03:26 Poopi wrote: Sure the visas and stuff are really hard to get for koreans and even if they did did it they wouldn't be able to participate in both KR and foreign events as easily as foreigners.
But look at the prize money repartition at global events such as IEM Katowice. It was like 80-20 for KR players despite being 28/60 players.
So I'd say foreigners still get the short hand of the stick, and foreign terrans get the shortest.
Having to earn the money on an even playing field and failing to do that is not getting the short end of the stick.
Even playing field? You realize that koreans have had better infrastructure for esports for a long time and that as long as foreigners can't speak fluent korean and live in korea they won't catch up in sc2? So no I don't think it's an even playing field
"koreans had better infrastructure for esports for a long time"
They don't anymore. There is no more teams in Korea, no KeSPA for SC2 either. JAGW is the only team left which has like 5 players. Korean players have no salary except tournament prizes. Some players have joined non-Korean teams but only a few top players. Foreigners have like a ton of teams (plus Blizzard is on their side and the support from them as well). Do you think Blizzard will make up random qualifier events AKA Challengers to give money out to Koreans like they do for foreigners?
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
I think one of the reasons was that TRUE was not strong enough to compete in the GSL. You look at his results in the year pre-WCS and his results during WCS, and he's making a lot more money now.
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
Third, The majority of ro32 players this season are wealthy enough that they can afford the costs to obtain a visa. There's only 16 players who don't make the ro32, and the ones who aren't as prominent are: Creator, Bunny, Billowy, Ragnarok, Keen, jjakji, Hurricane, and Trust. Slightly more prominent are players like Impact and Losira. The rest of the players in the ro32 are wealthy enough to be able to foot the visa costs, and the ro16 players do well in Korea.
True, living costs are more expensive, but remember, NoRegret was living in Korea for a while before they actually got the team house stuff sorted out, and in one video, he talks about how he was almost out of money. Now that they're funded, it's a lot easier, but earlier on, it was only the top foreigners who would live there, and remember, a lot of the people living in the foreign team house are top foreigners who have earned a decent chunk of money and who can afford to stay there.
So for the individual Korean to go to the US/EU, yes it would be expensive, but if they get funding for a team house, and if multiple Koreans wanted to go, then it would be a lot less expensive. The cost and time both to obtain a visa and also live in a WCS circuit region is more expensive, but from a teamhouse/shared living model, it's mainly the visa cost that is the issue, and I do think that most ro32 Koreans would be able to foot a 1000$ bill. It wouldn't be pleasant, but I think they would be able to pay for it.
It doesn't matter that they don't have it anymore, because the network is already here so the players know each other and can have multiple practice partners / players to speak to. By the way JAGW players recently won a shit ton of money so having a team still seems to help
On March 27 2018 04:15 Poopi wrote: It doesn't matter that they don't have it anymore, because the network is already here so the players know each other and can have multiple practice partners / players to speak to. By the way JAGW players recently won a shit ton of money so having a team still seems to help
The WCS Circuit players can't practice with each other? I suppose they don't have any real Terran players, but that's their fault.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
I think one of the reasons was that TRUE was not strong enough to compete in the GSL. You look at his results in the year pre-WCS and his results during WCS, and he's making a lot more money now.
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
Third, The majority of ro32 players this season are wealthy enough that they can afford the costs to obtain a visa. There's only 16 players who don't make the ro32, and the ones who aren't as prominent are: Creator, Bunny, Billowy, Ragnarok, Keen, jjakji, Hurricane, and Trust. Slightly more prominent are players like Impact and Losira. The rest of the players in the ro32 are wealthy enough to be able to foot the visa costs, and the ro16 players do well in Korea.
True, living costs are more expensive, but remember, NoRegret was living in Korea for a while before they actually got the team house stuff sorted out, and in one video, he talks about how he was almost out of money. Now that they're funded, it's a lot easier, but earlier on, it was only the top foreigners who would live there, and remember, a lot of the people living in the foreign team house are top foreigners who have earned a decent chunk of money and who can afford to stay there.
So for the individual Korean to go to the US/EU, yes it would be expensive, but if they get funding for a team house, and if multiple Koreans wanted to go, then it would be a lot less expensive. The cost and time both to obtain a visa and also live in a WCS circuit region is more expensive, but from a teamhouse/shared living model, it's mainly the visa cost that is the issue, and I do think that most ro32 Koreans would be able to foot a 1000$ bill. It wouldn't be pleasant, but I think they would be able to pay for it.
There is a misconception on the cost of visa here. Employer pays for the cost of the visa. The employee can't. He may pay for premium processing fee (to process the visa application faster). Other than that, visa fees + lawyer fees are all paid by the organization. Even if there is a "backdoor" deal that player pays for everything and then USCIS finds out of it, they will revoke the visa immediately. The process of getting a visa in the US is not one of those "paying some money, sending out an application and wait for couple weeks". The process is long, expensive and complicated and there is no guarantee at all.
On March 27 2018 04:15 Poopi wrote: It doesn't matter that they don't have it anymore, because the network is already here so the players know each other and can have multiple practice partners / players to speak to. By the way JAGW players recently won a shit ton of money so having a team still seems to help
How is that different with WCS scene? Foreigners don't know each others and can't practice vs each others?
The infrustration in KR back in the day was support from organization AKA KeSPA or other before KeSPA. They had money support from KeSPA. They were coaches and teams. Nothing of those existed anymore. JAGW players may be benefited by the last team standing. They have salaries and team house so they don't need to worry about paying rents and food. That cannot be said for the rest of KR players out there. Korean scene is pretty much as the same as foreign scene now. Yet the region-lock is there to stay.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
I will admit I did underestimate both the cost and hassle of being sponsored by a US team as well as the cost of that visa.
However, I maintain that if multiple Koreans were to split the cost of living, those expenses would decrease. I looked it up, and TRUE has a P-1 athlete's visa, which costs around 500 to apply as well as (on one site) 2000-3500 (or so) for the lawyer fees. That's definitely a chunk of money, but even those costs are much less than say a permanent residence cost.
So yes, foreigners who compete in season 2 and 3 of the GSL are doing something Koreans with visas likely (though not impossibly) would be unable to do.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence).
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
It's written in wcs rules that they must have blizzard's permission to travel outside their region. It's not like players could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere. Now maybe if TRUE asks them if he can stay in korea for a couple months to play in GSL they let him, but he'd likely have to forfeit a couple circuit events to do so anyway.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence).
Also it's written that they must have blizzard's permission to travel there. It's not that they could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere.
Clearly TRUE disagrees with you since he did participate in the first GSL qualifier last year.
On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote: Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal.
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence).
Also it's written that they must have blizzard's permission to travel there. It's not that they could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere.
Clearly TRUE disagrees with you since he did participate in the first GSL qualifier last year.
Maybe he discussed it with blizzard and they allowed him, but the rules they've given clearly indicate that it's not a viable option. With requirements like having them play all ladder and online games from their given region for example.
Although it's worth noting that last year the first wcs event wasn't for over a month after GSL qualifiers. So he'd still be within the "must reside in region for a month before competing in an event" part.
On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote: [quote] yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear"
Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things.
Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea.
If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so.
Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE.
I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him.
And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can).
People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE
First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL.
Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence).
Also it's written that they must have blizzard's permission to travel there. It's not that they could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere.
Clearly TRUE disagrees with you since he did participate in the first GSL qualifier last year.
Maybe he discussed it with blizzard and they allowed him, but the rules they've given clearly indicate that it's not a viable option. With requirements like having them play all ladder and online games from their given region for example.
Although it's worth noting that last year the first wcs event wasn't for over a month after GSL qualifiers. So he'd still be within the "must reside in region for a month before competing in an event" part.
The "one month" from the rules refers to at least one month since the beginning of residency in the circuit country. You don't have to physically be in the country continuously over that month...
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
OK. There is a huge difference between getting a visitor visa from Korea to live there for 6 months AKA what Scarlett and other foreigners do vs getting a work visa (P1) in the US (or equivalent visa in EU). It is easy to get a visitor visa to come to Korea. No big deal. Getting a working visa in US and EU is very difficult. It can take a year or longer. TRUE took almost a year. I'm speaking out of experiences here as I'm currently living in the US with a working visa. A visitor visa in the US will not cut it as you can't work in the US under visitor visa. I don't know how much it costs to get a visitor visa in Korea but I bet like 200 bucks max. A working visa in the US will take at least $1000 + lawyer fees. The financial and time commitment for a working visa in the US is almost too much to bear. That is why it is unfair for Koreans.
Koreans can easily get EU working visas if they want to, it is really quick and simple. With US visas there is a huge problem both for Koreans and EU players due to US tax considerations. Frankly speaking EU players and others playing in Korea or USA do it more or less illegaly if they do not have buissness/working visas and these are hard to obtain, in fact I believe the US customs officers are obliged not o provide them for esport players. Regardless of this, Blizzard did an excellent job doing region lock, in time this will balance out the huge advantage koreans had over all other players and really few people are really interested in internal korean struggles..
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair.
I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair.
I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
No region locks. That's perfectly fair as the players who make money are the ones who go to tournaments and perform.
On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
No region locks. That's perfectly fair as the players who make money are the ones who go to tournaments and perform.
That isn't fair either (according to the criteria being applied) since it's much easier for Koreans to participate in week-end events than for foreigners to have to live in Korea to participate in the GSL.
On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
No region locks. That's perfectly fair as the players who make money are the ones who go to tournaments and perform.
That isn't fair either (according to the criteria being applied) since it's much easier for Koreans to participate in week-end events than for foreigners to have to live in Korea to participate in the GSL.
Koreans have the military angle, so that more than balances that out.
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair.
I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
In an ideal world there would be a continuous league, a lot more weekend tournaments, and a billion more dollars.
Pragmatically though, I would argue for abolishing GSL and WCS events alike and replacing them with a bunch of Katowice-style events, which is to say Server Qualifiers leading up to a big offline tournament. Obviously they'd have to be scaled down in terms of prize and duration, but keep the concept. If there could be say 10 of these mini-Katowice tournaments leading up to Blizzcon that would probably be enough to build storylines and hype trains and all the rest. With Blizzcon being in November, that's 1 tournament per month. IEM Katowice started its qualifiers on January 2 and held its grand final on March 4. Even scaled down, that's more or less constant competition for 10 months.
Blizzard is putting $2 million into the current system, plus Warchest funding, so each one of those mini-Katowice tournaments would have a $150,000 prizepool (for reference each GSL Season currently has about $160,000) assuming we replaced everything besides Blizzcon and not counting the Warchest.
Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote: Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
I don't see how bad non-Korean pros who only play Zerg being unable to make a living because they're not getting results impacts the non-Korean viewing audience. Do people really want to watch inferior players just because they're from the Americas or Europe?
On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote: Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
ZigguratOfUr asked me for a proposal of a fair system, not a successful one.
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote: [quote]
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote: [quote]
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair.
I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
In an ideal world there would be a continuous league, a lot more weekend tournaments, and a billion more dollars.
Pragmatically though, I would argue for abolishing GSL and WCS events alike and replacing them with a bunch of Katowice-style events, which is to say Server Qualifiers leading up to a big offline tournament. Obviously they'd have to be scaled down in terms of prize and duration, but keep the concept. If there could be say 10 of these mini-Katowice tournaments leading up to Blizzcon that would probably be enough to build storylines and hype trains and all the rest. With Blizzcon being in November, that's 1 tournament per month. IEM Katowice started its qualifiers on January 2 and held its grand final on March 4. Even scaled down, that's more or less constant competition for 10 months.
Blizzard is putting $2 million into the current system, plus Warchest funding, so each one of those mini-Katowice tournaments would have a $150,000 prizepool (for reference each GSL Season currently has about $160,000) assuming we replaced everything besides Blizzcon and not counting the Warchest.
That is fair from an equality of opportunity perspective, but it isn't particularly realistic either. The existence of GSL and Afreeca's investment in that brand isn't something that can be set aside (and would be immensely unpopular, and have a negative impact on players).
On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote: Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
ZigguratOfUr asked me for a proposal of a fair system, not a successful one.
You could have gone simpler. No tournaments at all is fairest of all.
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote: [quote] Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair.
I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
In an ideal world there would be a continuous league, a lot more weekend tournaments, and a billion more dollars.
Pragmatically though, I would argue for abolishing GSL and WCS events alike and replacing them with a bunch of Katowice-style events, which is to say Server Qualifiers leading up to a big offline tournament. Obviously they'd have to be scaled down in terms of prize and duration, but keep the concept. If there could be say 10 of these mini-Katowice tournaments leading up to Blizzcon that would probably be enough to build storylines and hype trains and all the rest. With Blizzcon being in November, that's 1 tournament per month. IEM Katowice started its qualifiers on January 2 and held its grand final on March 4. Even scaled down, that's more or less constant competition for 10 months.
Blizzard is putting $2 million into the current system, plus Warchest funding, so each one of those mini-Katowice tournaments would have a $150,000 prizepool (for reference each GSL Season currently has about $160,000) assuming we replaced everything besides Blizzcon and not counting the Warchest.
That is fair from an equality of opportunity perspective, but it isn't particularly realistic either. The existence of GSL and Afreeca's investment in that brand isn't something that can be set aside (and would be immensely unpopular, and have a negative impact on players).
On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote: Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
ZigguratOfUr asked me for a proposal of a fair system, not a successful one.
You could have gone simpler. No tournaments at all is fairest of all.
Gonna be honest here, that was my original response. Decided not to be such a troll though.
Realistically though, the sheer inertia of the business models for Blizzard, Afreeca, and DH preclude any massive reforms like the ones I suggested (as you mentioned), even if they were financially viable. It's just an exercise in theorycrafting.
For better or worse (mostly worse) what we have is what we get, at least for the next year or two before Korean SC2 dies completely. Money is the lifeblood here, and SC2 is a beggar on life support. That's just reality.
Do they go out of their way to make unbalanced groups? 3 Codes S players in Group A, 4 in Group B, and 5 in Group C. Unless that Group A barcode is sOs, Classic, or Zest, that seems really off.
There are 28 players from season 1 trying to qualify and 7 groups today. Put 4 in each group.
edit: According to whoever updated liquipedia, that barcode is herO, so that's a lot more fair.
edit 2: The group b barcode is apparently Billowy, so that makes it 4 in Group A, 5 in Group B, and 5 in Group C. There could be a weak group or two in the afternoon.
On March 27 2018 11:31 Boggyb wrote: Do they go out of their way to make unbalanced groups? 3 Codes S players in Group A, 4 in Group B, and 5 in Group C. Unless that Group A barcode is sOs, Classic, or Zest, that seems really off.
There are 28 players from season 1 trying to qualify and 7 groups today. Put 4 in each group.
On March 27 2018 13:59 cjb wrote: inb4 Scarlett and Puck knock TY out of GSL in the qualifiers..
Didn't her and noregret knock out Zest?
Zest made it to the Ro8.
Yeah but in a different qualifier Scarlett and TIME knocked him out. TIME sent him to the lower bracket and Scarlett finished it off, unless I have the two reversed
Too bad Dandy couldn't carry over any of that magic from the Super Tournament qualifiers that almost saw him through. I know nothing about him as a player, but he'd be a new face and that's always nice.
I'm gonna laugh so hard if Cure get through while DieuCure is ban
On March 28 2018 13:32 vult wrote: Brackets are coming up now: https://2018gsl2day2.challonge.com/ looks like Parting and Elazer have an easyish group
Hum I would say Hurricane and Cure are favorite against Parting, Elazer has a good shot, Supernova also has a shot I think, just got to beat Trust or Leenock (unless the barcode player in his group is some hotshot) it would be nice seeing him again.
On March 28 2018 14:09 cjb wrote: puCK 2-0 Rookie, now playing Rogue.
I could certainly see him getting through. Rogue should easily get #1 spot, but I can see puck beating TRUE, question is whether either can get through jjaki who is not a top tier Terran by any means. It's very possible for puck here, that'd be a cool one to see get through.
On March 28 2018 14:16 chipmonklord17 wrote: emotion 2-0 special
Boy, Special has collapsed since his run at Blizzcon
He has not quite looked the same since. Albeit I think he really struggles in TvP. I may be completely off base on this, but I think he is still ok in other matchups but it looks like he is just bad in TvP from what I've seen.
On March 28 2018 14:16 chipmonklord17 wrote: emotion 2-0 special
Boy, Special has collapsed since his run at Blizzcon
He has not quite looked the same since. Albeit I think he really struggles in TvP. I may be completely off base on this, but I think he is still ok in other matchups but it looks like he is just bad in TvP from what I've seen.
I think he just gets into his own head too much. He thinks TvP is impossible, so he's already set himself up for failure.
I'm just looking at liquipedia results here, but it looks like a solid chance of seeing Kelazhur v noRegret final in one matchup. That'd be cool. Kelazhur faces Impact and noRegret faces Ryung so it might go completely the other way with an Impact v Ryung but that's an interesting group no matter what.
On March 28 2018 14:23 Nakajin wrote: On a positive note emotion now has a good shot of making it to the GSL for the first time
Him and SuperNova are the only Koreans I've never heard of or seen left, so it'd be really cool to see a new Korean in GSL Ro32.
SuperNova was a solid player back in the day, with some of the coolest terran build, you should go check some of his game on youtube if you have the chance. I think he's back from military service
Haha jeez sorry guys/gals. I've only been watching SC2 since mid 2015ish so sometimes I miss out a bit on the older players. My bad I've been playing SC since 2003ish but never followed pro games until then.
On March 28 2018 14:31 HoldenC23 wrote: Haha jeez sorry guys/gals. I've only been watching SC2 since mid 2015ish so sometimes I miss out a bit on the older players. My bad I've been playing SC since 2003ish but never followed pro games until then.
Here:
In the words of TotalBiscuit himself: "I'm pretty biased but this game is insane."
On March 28 2018 14:47 pvsnp wrote: eMotion beat a Terran and a Protoss, now can he beat a Zerg and be the first unknown Korean to qualify for Code S in god knows how long?
He's not unknown actually he was formerly on Samsung. EMotion
Thanks pvsnp for that, I was looking for something to watch while watching brackets for updates. Was a good game. Didn't know that Innovation played for Acer.
cjb doesn't SortOf still need to beat herO/eMotion to qualify?
SetGuitarstoKill isn't Hurricane mostly a PvP sniper? He can win other matches but mostly he is good in PvP.
Hero must have underestimate him or got max cheese, Emotion is still Byun's # 1 punching bag, like 23-1 and 30-4 in two different stream. What's going on?
On March 28 2018 14:51 HoldenC23 wrote: Thanks pvsnp for that, I was looking for something to watch while watching brackets for updates. Was a good game. Didn't know that Innovation played for Acer.
cjb doesn't SortOf still need to beat herO/eMotion to qualify?
SetGuitarstoKill isn't Hurricane mostly a PvP sniper? He can win other matches but mostly he is good in PvP.
On March 28 2018 14:47 pvsnp wrote: eMotion beat a Terran and a Protoss, now can he beat a Zerg and be the first unknown Korean to qualify for Code S in god knows how long?
On March 28 2018 15:09 Solar424 wrote: Natural vs Zanster is either the most epic ZvT series ever, or neither of them showed up and no one has noticed.
The Oversleeper vs the Couldn't-be-Bothered. Truly epic.
On March 28 2018 15:17 Inflicted wrote: Cure 2-1 Hurricane & qualifies
DieuCure's sacrifice was not in vain
It's only a 2 day ban though, so Cure will still bomb out of the Ro32. If it was two weeks Cure might stand a chance.
Nah, Cure is better than the majority of the Super Tournament players according to DieuCure so clearly, since ST > Code S in terms of difficulty, he'll get AT LEAST Ro8
SortOf qualifies again eh? He's always been kinda of good not great European Zerg but this makes what two or three straight Ro32's for him? Pretty solid. Still not showing much in terms of WCS events though.
Hope jjaki takes out TRUE. TRUE is the one player in all of SC that I cheer against, I find his style annoying and repetitive.
Ryung v Kelazhur would be a great match. Ryung big favourite but hope for Kelazhur.
Rematch Hurricane and Elazer. That should be interesting.
Patience v MMA. Two "old school" players. Would love to see both in Ro32.
Elazer and eMotion qualify! Loving it. Sucks not to have Hurricane in there though. Lots of unfortunate drop outs (Hurricane, Trust, Has, Special, PartinG, herO, Creator, etc), but in competitive tourneys this happens.
I inexplicably dislike name "Elazer." Ever since I first heard it, just the sound for some reason annoyed me,
No idea why and the guy himself seems perfectly normal, but I don't like the player as a result and I'm always happy when he loses so I don't have to hear the name.
On March 28 2018 16:14 LaughNgamez wrote: No SuperNova, MMA, PartinG
All aboard the train of eMotions!
eMotion, the main thing I remember of him was winning the monthly finals of the December Olimoleague, which caused the January Olimoleague to be called "Emolimoleague" (well unofficially at least).
On March 28 2018 16:32 Inflicted wrote: TRUE > jjakji & qualifies
This will be quite interesting. It will certainly add fuel to the (off-topic) region lock talk.
I think what will be interesting is to see Blizzard's response or non-response. It's one thing to live on a visa and qualify for a weekend. It's an entirely other thing to live on a visa and qualify and play for the GSL.
Though, given TRUE's general performance, I don't expect him to get past the ro32, and his result will probably inform Blizzard's future decision.
Like if TRUE were to get ro4 in the GSL and also get ro4 in WCS, then Blizzard might do something.
EDIT: Also, I think that's 5 circuit players, which is one of the highest it's been, as well as eMotion eliminating herO.
GSL season 2 and 3 will be really interesting. Now with eMotion, elazer, zanster some really new faces to code S, and also Cure and True being back. Also I hope that the likes of MMA, Supernova, Parting will catch up again til season 3. And with dandy we have an interesting Rookie (not to forget rookie ofcourse ^^) who could also make it next season. These are exciting times for GSL
EPT
KeeN 2-1 
Dear
soO
2017 Global StarCraft II League Season 3/Qualifier
Cure 2-1 
Leenock
Classic 2-1 ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/d9kaj98.png)
I've been playing SC since 2003ish but never followed pro games until then.
