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Aight, this region-lock talk has run its course. Thanks for keeping things civil, but it's time to get back on topic.
Only preliminaries related talk, please. |
On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE I think one of the reasons was that TRUE was not strong enough to compete in the GSL. You look at his results in the year pre-WCS and his results during WCS, and he's making a lot more money now. First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season). Third, The majority of ro32 players this season are wealthy enough that they can afford the costs to obtain a visa. There's only 16 players who don't make the ro32, and the ones who aren't as prominent are: Creator, Bunny, Billowy, Ragnarok, Keen, jjakji, Hurricane, and Trust. Slightly more prominent are players like Impact and Losira. The rest of the players in the ro32 are wealthy enough to be able to foot the visa costs, and the ro16 players do well in Korea. True, living costs are more expensive, but remember, NoRegret was living in Korea for a while before they actually got the team house stuff sorted out, and in one video, he talks about how he was almost out of money. Now that they're funded, it's a lot easier, but earlier on, it was only the top foreigners who would live there, and remember, a lot of the people living in the foreign team house are top foreigners who have earned a decent chunk of money and who can afford to stay there. So for the individual Korean to go to the US/EU, yes it would be expensive, but if they get funding for a team house, and if multiple Koreans wanted to go, then it would be a lot less expensive. The cost and time both to obtain a visa and also live in a WCS circuit region is more expensive, but from a teamhouse/shared living model, it's mainly the visa cost that is the issue, and I do think that most ro32 Koreans would be able to foot a 1000$ bill. It wouldn't be pleasant, but I think they would be able to pay for it.
There is a misconception on the cost of visa here. Employer pays for the cost of the visa. The employee can't. He may pay for premium processing fee (to process the visa application faster). Other than that, visa fees + lawyer fees are all paid by the organization. Even if there is a "backdoor" deal that player pays for everything and then USCIS finds out of it, they will revoke the visa immediately. The process of getting a visa in the US is not one of those "paying some money, sending out an application and wait for couple weeks". The process is long, expensive and complicated and there is no guarantee at all.
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On March 27 2018 04:15 Poopi wrote:
It doesn't matter that they don't have it anymore, because the network is already here so the players know each other and can have multiple practice partners / players to speak to.
By the way JAGW players recently won a shit ton of money so having a team still seems to help
How is that different with WCS scene? Foreigners don't know each others and can't practice vs each others?
The infrustration in KR back in the day was support from organization AKA KeSPA or other before KeSPA. They had money support from KeSPA. They were coaches and teams. Nothing of those existed anymore. JAGW players may be benefited by the last team standing. They have salaries and team house so they don't need to worry about paying rents and food. That cannot be said for the rest of KR players out there. Korean scene is pretty much as the same as foreign scene now. Yet the region-lock is there to stay.
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On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season).
The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible.
Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere.
I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed.
And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
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People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
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Isn't this a GSL qualifier thread not one about region lock?
Speaking of what time do they start?
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On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
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On March 27 2018 04:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season). The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible. Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere. I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed. And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to.
Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
I will admit I did underestimate both the cost and hassle of being sponsored by a US team as well as the cost of that visa.
However, I maintain that if multiple Koreans were to split the cost of living, those expenses would decrease. I looked it up, and TRUE has a P-1 athlete's visa, which costs around 500 to apply as well as (on one site) 2000-3500 (or so) for the lawyer fees. That's definitely a chunk of money, but even those costs are much less than say a permanent residence cost.
So yes, foreigners who compete in season 2 and 3 of the GSL are doing something Koreans with visas likely (though not impossibly) would be unable to do.
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On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
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On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
The state of the scene is a second order concern.
Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
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On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
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On March 27 2018 05:55 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 04:45 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season). The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible. Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere. I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed. And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to. Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend).
No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence).
On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it.
It's written in wcs rules that they must have blizzard's permission to travel outside their region. It's not like players could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere. Now maybe if TRUE asks them if he can stay in korea for a couple months to play in GSL they let him, but he'd likely have to forfeit a couple circuit events to do so anyway.
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On March 27 2018 06:51 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 05:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 04:45 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season). The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible. Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere. I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed. And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to. Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend). No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence). Also it's written that they must have blizzard's permission to travel there. It's not that they could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere.
Clearly TRUE disagrees with you since he did participate in the first GSL qualifier last year.
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On March 27 2018 06:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:51 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 05:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 04:45 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:On March 27 2018 01:28 Mun_Su wrote:
Sad to see True and no TY, but GLAD, really GLAD to see that Scarlett didn't make it. and nothing personnal. yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years "i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season). The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible. Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere. I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed. And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to. Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend). No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence). Also it's written that they must have blizzard's permission to travel there. It's not that they could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere. Clearly TRUE disagrees with you since he did participate in the first GSL qualifier last year.
Maybe he discussed it with blizzard and they allowed him, but the rules they've given clearly indicate that it's not a viable option. With requirements like having them play all ladder and online games from their given region for example.
Although it's worth noting that last year the first wcs event wasn't for over a month after GSL qualifiers. So he'd still be within the "must reside in region for a month before competing in an event" part.
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On March 27 2018 06:58 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:51 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 05:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 04:45 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 04:14 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:44 Fango wrote:On March 27 2018 02:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 02:09 Mun_Su wrote:On March 27 2018 01:34 Gurbak wrote:
[quote]
yeah, nothing personnal, like every tl poster shitting on foreigners for years
"i'm really really happy that this specific foreigner lost, but nothing personnal i swear" Don't be mad, I'll be glad to see every foreigner failing in Korean just watch my sig. there is a double standard system that is disgusting. Kor can't compete outside Korea, For can come to korea to hone their skills, compete in Korea, and still compete in Foreigner tournament, this is the most biased system ever. Even if stephano was playing GSL (and I love the man) I'll be against him (unless he forfeit participation in foreigner tournaments of course). So stop assuming things. Yeah...so those foreigners are actually living in Korea. If Koreans want to get a visa and live in the US or the EU, they are welcome to do so. Sure, getting a visa in Korea to other places is more work, but after the initial visa, they're as free as TRUE. I don't think you understand the degree between them. Getting a visa/accomodation in the US or EU for a korean player is a much, much longer, and expensive process. For most players it will never be financially viable. TRUE took like 8-9 months to get it sorted iirc, and he had a rich foreign team supporting him. And you seem to be forgetting that even if they get a visa sorted, they still can't compete everywhere. Due to the requirements, they would not be allowed to play in both GSL and circuit events (like foreigners can). Or switch between living in their home country and their new one whenever they want (like foreigners can). People seem to think the korean players can just apply to a visa whenever they want and get the same luxuries that foreigners have. There are reasons that none of them did other than TRUE First, looking through the 2018 rules, I see that under "qualifying foreign residency," the main stipulations about travel outside that country of residency are five weeks for non-competitive reasons during the WCS period. I believe that travelling from the US/EU to play in the GSL would qualify under competitive reasons. I see no reason to believe that a person who obtains a Visa to live in a WCS circuit region would be unable to play in the GSL. Second, Scarlett, for example, lives primarily in Korea for the duration of GSL season 1. It would not be practical for Scarlett to travel back to Canada and then back to Korea for the GSL matches. So players who compete in the GSL, are basically locked in for the duration of their play. Even during the non-GSL play, I don't think Scarlett travels back and forth all the time from Korea to Canada and back again (perhaps during the off-season). The rules on circuit eligibility certainly do not seem that flexible. Under the "qualifying foreign residency" rule, it states that players must have resided in their region for at least one month prior to the next wcs circuit event. Also that all ladder/online tournament games they play must be played from this region. And they must also seek blizzard's approval before traveling anywhere. I very much doubt they could get away with staying in korea almost full time (which competing in GSL/supertournaments essentially requires) while also playing in wcs events. They could get away with traveling for weekenders I suppose but not a GSL or SSL. The foreigners on the other hand are free to practice/compete in korean events and just fly out to other tournaments when needed. And the cost/hassle of a visa (of which you are greatly understating) isn't even everything. They need housing and money to live of as well. I don't think any of the others could do that without a rich team supporting them (like what TRUE had). The few that probably (TY, Inno etc) don't need to. Although they likely wouldn't be able to do it for all of GSL, they might be able to swing it for the first season, as TRUE is playing in a WCS Korea tournament (though only a weekend). No chance. The rules state they have to play all ladder and online games from that region, as well as reside there for a full month before an wcs circuit event. The only times they're allowed to travel is for global competitions. TRUE gets away with this because it's a weekender. He can still live and practice full time in America, only flying out to actually play in the tournament. As far as I can see, he would not be able to live in korea full time (realistically, playing in GSL/qualifiers/supertournaments requires full time residence). Also it's written that they must have blizzard's permission to travel there. It's not that they could sneak around tournaments until blizzard tells them not to, blizz have to literally give them the go-ahead to travel anywhere. Clearly TRUE disagrees with you since he did participate in the first GSL qualifier last year. Maybe he discussed it with blizzard and they allowed him, but the rules they've given clearly indicate that it's not a viable option. With requirements like having them play all ladder and online games from their given region for example. Although it's worth noting that last year the first wcs event wasn't for over a month after GSL qualifiers. So he'd still be within the "must reside in region for a month before competing in an event" part.
The "one month" from the rules refers to at least one month since the beginning of residency in the circuit country. You don't have to physically be in the country continuously over that month...
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On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros.
Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow?
On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing.
I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph:
"What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like."
Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
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On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene.
If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
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On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success.
If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot.
The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want.
My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
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On March 27 2018 08:10 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success. If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot. The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want. My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too.
I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying.
So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
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OK. There is a huge difference between getting a visitor visa from Korea to live there for 6 months AKA what Scarlett and other foreigners do vs getting a work visa (P1) in the US (or equivalent visa in EU). It is easy to get a visitor visa to come to Korea. No big deal. Getting a working visa in US and EU is very difficult. It can take a year or longer. TRUE took almost a year. I'm speaking out of experiences here as I'm currently living in the US with a working visa. A visitor visa in the US will not cut it as you can't work in the US under visitor visa. I don't know how much it costs to get a visitor visa in Korea but I bet like 200 bucks max. A working visa in the US will take at least $1000 + lawyer fees. The financial and time commitment for a working visa in the US is almost too much to bear. That is why it is unfair for Koreans.
Koreans can easily get EU working visas if they want to, it is really quick and simple. With US visas there is a huge problem both for Koreans and EU players due to US tax considerations. Frankly speaking EU players and others playing in Korea or USA do it more or less illegaly if they do not have buissness/working visas and these are hard to obtain, in fact I believe the US customs officers are obliged not o provide them for esport players. Regardless of this, Blizzard did an excellent job doing region lock, in time this will balance out the huge advantage koreans had over all other players and really few people are really interested in internal korean struggles..
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On March 27 2018 08:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 08:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success. If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot. The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want. My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too. I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying. So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make?
That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair.
I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
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EPT
