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Aight, this region-lock talk has run its course. Thanks for keeping things civil, but it's time to get back on topic.
Only preliminaries related talk, please. |
On March 27 2018 09:32 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 08:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 08:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success. If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot. The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want. My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too. I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying. So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make? That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair. I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much.
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
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On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
No region locks. That's perfectly fair as the players who make money are the ones who go to tournaments and perform.
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On March 27 2018 10:07 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless. No region locks. That's perfectly fair as the players who make money are the ones who go to tournaments and perform.
That isn't fair either (according to the criteria being applied) since it's much easier for Koreans to participate in week-end events than for foreigners to have to live in Korea to participate in the GSL.
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Still no one knows when this begins?
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On March 27 2018 10:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 10:07 Boggyb wrote:On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless. No region locks. That's perfectly fair as the players who make money are the ones who go to tournaments and perform. That isn't fair either (according to the criteria being applied) since it's much easier for Koreans to participate in week-end events than for foreigners to have to live in Korea to participate in the GSL.
Koreans have the military angle, so that more than balances that out.
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On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 09:32 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 08:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 08:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote:
People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments.
It goes something like this:
1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments
2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments
3. Blizzard steps in and bans this
4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money
Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try.
What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable.
An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success. If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot. The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want. My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too. I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying. So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make? That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair. I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much. I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless.
In an ideal world there would be a continuous league, a lot more weekend tournaments, and a billion more dollars.
Pragmatically though, I would argue for abolishing GSL and WCS events alike and replacing them with a bunch of Katowice-style events, which is to say Server Qualifiers leading up to a big offline tournament. Obviously they'd have to be scaled down in terms of prize and duration, but keep the concept. If there could be say 10 of these mini-Katowice tournaments leading up to Blizzcon that would probably be enough to build storylines and hype trains and all the rest. With Blizzcon being in November, that's 1 tournament per month. IEM Katowice started its qualifiers on January 2 and held its grand final on March 4. Even scaled down, that's more or less constant competition for 10 months.
Blizzard is putting $2 million into the current system, plus Warchest funding, so each one of those mini-Katowice tournaments would have a $150,000 prizepool (for reference each GSL Season currently has about $160,000) assuming we replaced everything besides Blizzcon and not counting the Warchest.
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On March 27 2018 10:23 LaughNgamez wrote:
Still no one knows when this begins?
I'd assume it's the same time as usual with morning and afternoon sessions (with the morning session having begun ~30 minutes ago).
edit: People might still be warming up. Though yesterday was later than usual I guess so idk.
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Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
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On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote:
Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
I don't see how bad non-Korean pros who only play Zerg being unable to make a living because they're not getting results impacts the non-Korean viewing audience. Do people really want to watch inferior players just because they're from the Americas or Europe?
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Can you guys please take this region lock debate somewhere else?
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On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote:
Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW).
ZigguratOfUr asked me for a proposal of a fair system, not a successful one. 
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On March 27 2018 10:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 09:32 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 08:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 08:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like. As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about how Blizzard will behave. If a few Koreans circumvent region-lock (which arguably TRUE is doing by participating in Super-Tournament) I doubt Blizzard will do anything in exactly the same way Blizzard does nothing when a few foreigners sneak into GSL. And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness--if a few Koreans were legitimately committed to living on foreign soil and becoming part of the foreign scene (rather than just sneaking in to farm four weekenders a year) I find it hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't allow it. Am I? Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing? KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down. Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened. The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them. Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place. (Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success. If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot. The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want. My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too. I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying. So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make? That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair. I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much. I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless. In an ideal world there would be a continuous league, a lot more weekend tournaments, and a billion more dollars. Pragmatically though, I would argue for abolishing GSL and WCS events alike and replacing them with a bunch of Katowice-style events, which is to say Server Qualifiers leading up to a big offline tournament. Obviously they'd have to be scaled down in terms of prize and duration, but keep the concept. If there could be say 10 of these mini-Katowice tournaments leading up to Blizzcon that would probably be enough to build storylines and hype trains and all the rest. With Blizzcon being in November, that's 1 tournament per month. IEM Katowice started its qualifiers on January 2 and held its grand final on March 4. Even scaled down, that's more or less constant competition for 10 months. Blizzard is putting $2 million into the current system, plus Warchest funding, so each one of those mini-Katowice tournaments would have a $150,000 prizepool (for reference each GSL Season currently has about $160,000) assuming we replaced everything besides Blizzcon and not counting the Warchest.
That is fair from an equality of opportunity perspective, but it isn't particularly realistic either. The existence of GSL and Afreeca's investment in that brand isn't something that can be set aside (and would be immensely unpopular, and have a negative impact on players).
On March 27 2018 11:02 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote:
Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW). ZigguratOfUr asked me for a proposal of a fair system, not a successful one.
You could have gone simpler. No tournaments at all is fairest of all.
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On March 27 2018 11:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 10:36 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 09:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 09:32 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 08:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 08:10 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 07:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 07:30 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
[quote]
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) Very artistic. It was actually quite a great read. You should do one of those fan-fic player intros. Thank you, I try. Sometimes the words just write themselves, yknow? On March 27 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 27 2018 06:10 pvsnp wrote:
[quote]
Am I?
Blizzard implemented region-lock with the express intent of forbidding Koreans from participating in foreign tournaments. The obvious subtext was that Koreans were dominating them and stifling local scenes. What exactly has changed here since region-lock first became a thing?
KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.
Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.
Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.
The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.
(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today) The state of the scene is a second order concern. Blizzard will act if and only if enough people complain. And sure I grant you that in a scenario where Koreans try to get into the WCS system en masse and started dominating it they might do something, but such a scenario is a pipe dream.But there is a symmetric pipe dream--if enough foreigners participate in GSL and started dominating it I have no doubt that region lock would change. As things are currently a few more Koreans going the way of TRUE would change nothing. If TRUE had made it through that GSL qualifier last year and participated in both GSL and WCS for a season, it would have changed nothing. I edited my post after you replied to it–I edit basically every single one of my posts to add some point or rephrase some sentence or reformat some paragraph: "What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like." Point being that it only takes a handful of Koreans, compared to the relatively large number of foreigners that have already started participating in GSL qualifiers. The number isn't important, it's the impact they have. Foreigners en masse have had a relatively small impact on the Korean scene thus far, but far fewer Koreans can and will have a far greater impact on the foreign scene. If a top Korean pro legitimately committed to participating in the foreign scene like TRUE does I rather think Blizzard would consider it a success. If by "legitimately committed" you mean not participating in their original region's (Korea, in this case) tournaments, then the whole point is moot. The whole point was that they aren't legitimately committing, any more than Scarlett, Major, etc are legitimately committing to Korea by staying away from Circuit tournaments. Right now those foreigners are having their cake and eating it too, by participating in all the tournaments. They can live/train/practice in Korea while flying out to foreign tourneys whenever they want. My point was always that Blizzard forbids Koreans from doing the same, and if the Koreans (through whatever legal loopholes) started to copy the foreigners by living in Korea and flying out to (win) foreign tourneys, Blizzard would forbid that too. I'd argue that Scarlett and MajOr are legitimately committed to Korea (and as a result not committed to their original region). The symmetric example would be a Korean like TRUE who is committed to WCS, but occasionally flies back to participate in stuff like the super-tournament. Of course GSL being a league tournament and not over a weekend breaks the symmetry, and makes participating in it rather difficult if you try to commit to WCS (though not impossible). You're labeling the system as unfair, because it is unable to "solve" the problem of GSL being in a different format than WCS events. But since no system can "solve" this dichotomy--any system Blizzard can put in place becomes "unfair" under the criteria you're applying. So if everything's unfair what is even the point you are trying to make? That people should stop claiming region-lock is fair and Koreans can "just do the same thing." It's not fair, and they can't. If people want to defend an unfair system, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's fair. I can't blame players for (ab)using the system when it favors them, but pretending like it doesn't favor them is a bit much. I'd like to hear your proposal for a fair system then. If by your argument all systems Blizzard could propose are inherently unfair given the circumstances what value is there in pointing out that this one is also unfair? Expounding about tautologies is pointless. In an ideal world there would be a continuous league, a lot more weekend tournaments, and a billion more dollars. Pragmatically though, I would argue for abolishing GSL and WCS events alike and replacing them with a bunch of Katowice-style events, which is to say Server Qualifiers leading up to a big offline tournament. Obviously they'd have to be scaled down in terms of prize and duration, but keep the concept. If there could be say 10 of these mini-Katowice tournaments leading up to Blizzcon that would probably be enough to build storylines and hype trains and all the rest. With Blizzcon being in November, that's 1 tournament per month. IEM Katowice started its qualifiers on January 2 and held its grand final on March 4. Even scaled down, that's more or less constant competition for 10 months. Blizzard is putting $2 million into the current system, plus Warchest funding, so each one of those mini-Katowice tournaments would have a $150,000 prizepool (for reference each GSL Season currently has about $160,000) assuming we replaced everything besides Blizzcon and not counting the Warchest. That is fair from an equality of opportunity perspective, but it isn't particularly realistic either. The existence of GSL and Afreeca's investment in that brand isn't something that can be set aside (and would be immensely unpopular, and have a negative impact on players). Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 11:02 pvsnp wrote:On March 27 2018 10:54 FrkFrJss wrote:
Server qualifiers do not prevent Koreans from winning all tournaments. If 4-8 Koreans play, those Koreans are likely to comprise the majority of the ro8 and thereby strangle the foreign scene.
We've already had a world with tons of tournaments that lead to Blizzcon and no region lock, and the foreign scene was decimated.
If the foreign scene goes, then the Korean scene (or much of it) also goes because it's the foreign investment and viewership in Starcraft 2 that makes it worthwhile to support (as there is much less support for SC2 in Korea than BW). ZigguratOfUr asked me for a proposal of a fair system, not a successful one. You could have gone simpler. No tournaments at all is fairest of all.
Gonna be honest here, that was my original response. Decided not to be such a troll though.
Realistically though, the sheer inertia of the business models for Blizzard, Afreeca, and DH preclude any massive reforms like the ones I suggested (as you mentioned), even if they were financially viable. It's just an exercise in theorycrafting.
For better or worse (mostly worse) what we have is what we get, at least for the next year or two before Korean SC2 dies completely. Money is the lifeblood here, and SC2 is a beggar on life support. That's just reality.
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United States33592 Posts
Aight I guess this has run its course with quite a long derailment (thanks for keeping it civil, though)
Only preliminaries related talk, please.
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Group A is up! Kelazhur vs Dear. Kelazhur beat Patience yesterday and lost to Classic.
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Do they go out of their way to make unbalanced groups? 3 Codes S players in Group A, 4 in Group B, and 5 in Group C. Unless that Group A barcode is sOs, Classic, or Zest, that seems really off.
There are 28 players from season 1 trying to qualify and 7 groups today. Put 4 in each group.
edit: According to whoever updated liquipedia, that barcode is herO, so that's a lot more fair.
edit 2: The group b barcode is apparently Billowy, so that makes it 4 in Group A, 5 in Group B, and 5 in Group C. There could be a weak group or two in the afternoon.
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Australia18228 Posts
On March 27 2018 11:31 Boggyb wrote:
Do they go out of their way to make unbalanced groups? 3 Codes S players in Group A, 4 in Group B, and 5 in Group C. Unless that Group A barcode is sOs, Classic, or Zest, that seems really off.
There are 28 players from season 1 trying to qualify and 7 groups today. Put 4 in each group.
That barcode is herO
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EPT
