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On August 23 2017 15:47 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote:It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game.
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game.
It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon?
No , canon put you so much behind, its 300 minerals in early game , that you simply cant afford
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On August 23 2017 13:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:
Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer.
I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Reactored Cyclones and a couple of marines in each mineral line. its better than the current LotV ladder patch; that said the current ladder patch is good. your initial scouting SCV should be able to tell you if something is proxied.. then your 1st Reaper can usually find the Proxy if its anywhere near your base. If the proxy is far away Cyclones and Marines should be out by the time the Oracles arrive. if the proxy is close the Reaper attacking the pylon will force the Oracle to use energy unless the Protoss wants to surrender his pylon.
Haha, thank you so much! I don't play terran, just loving the protoss life and thought T could use some love too 
Maybe I start learning it as offrace, the new mech just seems soo cool.
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yeah....
i asked like half of the gm list in NA if anyone wanted to play and no1 wants to... so if ur like... at least Masters 2... and wanna play then add my real id: darkillerwolf11@yahoo.com
edit: preferrably T/Z players*** im toss
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Gotta love now that they want buff the lurker, and now the lurker is again on map. Lol. Blizz needs to now better. What is broken and what is needed to leave to players hands.
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On August 23 2017 17:35 JWD[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 13:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:
Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer.
I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Reactored Cyclones and a couple of marines in each mineral line. its better than the current LotV ladder patch; that said the current ladder patch is good. your initial scouting SCV should be able to tell you if something is proxied.. then your 1st Reaper can usually find the Proxy if its anywhere near your base. If the proxy is far away Cyclones and Marines should be out by the time the Oracles arrive. if the proxy is close the Reaper attacking the pylon will force the Oracle to use energy unless the Protoss wants to surrender his pylon. Haha, thank you so much! I don't play terran, just loving the protoss life and thought T could use some love too Maybe I start learning it as offrace, the new mech just seems soo cool.
np,my default build is the "pig build". the defense i outlined in my post is usable with the Pig build. i'm a top 8 tier-1 diamond player.
unless, i scout something bizarre i use the pig build. if i suspect Oracles i build my factory right beside my reactored Rax.. Then i swap if i need several Cyclones.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/522790-pig-strategy-articles-a-terran-build-for-beginners
i love how Blizzard has changed SC2 since about 1 year after HotS came out.
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On August 23 2017 16:03 WayTeh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 15:47 Thezzy wrote:On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote:It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game.
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game.
It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon? No , canon put you so much behind, its 300 minerals in early game , that you simply cant afford
You mean like Terran building engineering bay and turrets when scouting oracles or DT rush? Or maybe Zerg building spores in each mineral line by the same reason? U think that they can afford it more?
Or maybe when Zerg scouts hellbat rush where he needs to invest early roaches that sets him behind because of the investment? Or maybe u ment cannon rush which forces Zerg to make Ravagers on one bass which ofc sets him behind as hell too?
Stop being biased.
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On August 24 2017 13:55 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 16:03 WayTeh_ wrote:On August 23 2017 15:47 Thezzy wrote:On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote:It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game.
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game.
It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon? No , canon put you so much behind, its 300 minerals in early game , that you simply cant afford You mean like Terran building engineering bay and turrets when scouting oracles or DT rush? Or maybe Zerg building spores in each mineral line by the same reason? U think that they can afford it more?
Yes?....
Engineering Bay: 125 Minerals
Spore Crawler Bay: Doesn't Exist
Forge: 150 Minerals
Turret: 100 Minerals
Spore Crawler: 75 Minerals
Cannon: 150 Minerals
Turret Air Dps: 39
Spore Air Dps: 24.4
Cannon: 22.4
By every metric cannons are the most expensive but least effective defense against oracles(I know that it requires a drone for zerg and the scv to continuously build it for terran but it's the upfront costs for a shitter version is the problem)
Canons + forge also have the longest build time by far, so it's basically impossible to have a forge early enough to defend the oracle while also not falling behind on the ground units so you don't die to a poke at the front in PvP.
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On August 24 2017 13:55 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 16:03 WayTeh_ wrote:On August 23 2017 15:47 Thezzy wrote:On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote:It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game.
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game.
It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon? No , canon put you so much behind, its 300 minerals in early game , that you simply cant afford You mean like Terran building engineering bay and turrets when scouting oracles or DT rush? Or maybe Zerg building spores in each mineral line by the same reason? U think that they can afford it more? Or maybe when Zerg scouts hellbat rush where he needs to invest early roaches that sets him behind because of the investment? Or maybe u ment cannon rush which forces Zerg to make Ravagers on one bass which ofc sets him behind as hell too? Stop being biased.
Bringing up PvT and PvZ in a discussion about PvP is irrelevant. He does have a point, cannoning up makes you lose map presence and allows the opponent to expand more safely. It might be better than the alternatives, but the stargate player will still most likely be even or ahead, barring any misplays on the stargate side.
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On August 24 2017 13:55 hiroshOne wrote:
Stop being biased.
Gave me a legit chuckle coming from you.
On August 23 2017 16:03 WayTeh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 15:47 Thezzy wrote:On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote:It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game.
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game.
It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon? No , canon put you so much behind, its 300 minerals in early game , that you simply cant afford
If the canon required cybercore instead of the forge, that'd be ok i guess. Cybercore-required photons could be a nice way for protoss to survive without overcharge
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I still haven't bothered playing any more games on the test map because of these reasons:
a) no changes to tone down carriers, and mech AA is still just god awful = carriers every game
b) swarmhost changes do absolutely nothing. Needs huge nerfs to allow mech to be playable. Ask any decent meching Terran you'll get the same answer - swarmhost are too easy to use and have zero drawbacks from GOOD zergs
c) raven / widow mine are blatantly and severely nerfed while the other races lategames are kept the same or buffed.
Widow mines are frustrating? Yet an oracle being proxied and flying into your base if you don't have a turret is fine and fair? This type of bias is a turn off to a lot of people that play the game. It's always "nerf Terran" but if it's Z/P there are no corresponding changes made to the game.
The new raven doesn't impress me. It just gets flat out seeker missile nerfed, PDD is 1000x better than a healing drone, and sure scrambler is good, but it's only useful vs P/T whereas auto turrets are good vs all 3 races (tho auto turrets are imba imo just like swarmhosts).
Why does blizzard not suck it up and make thors do the flat damage with javelin missiles as has been proven previously to be able to demolish carriers and interceptors. Mech needs anti-air. We don't need gimmicks like fast transform that do nothing to solve the issue of "my opponent build 10 invincible carriers, i lose now."
I think too many people have the blinders on playing this test map. Mech is almost objectively worse due to the raven PDD removal/seeker ridiculous nerf, while swarmhost/carrier are left almost basically the same, and things like parasitic bomb, and infestors are getting massive buffs.
Oh, and a core mech unit like the widow mine CANNOT be nerfed.
The new update is just another wolf in sheeps clothing for any and all mech Terrans - straight up mech nerfs disguised as "mech viability" just like a year ago when tanks were buffed while also buffing swarmhosts to the insane level that they currently are at now.
I'm all for raven nerfs - but only if swarmhost/carrier are correspondingly fixed and nerfed. And it seems this isn't going to happen.
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On August 24 2017 20:06 avilo wrote:
I still haven't bothered playing any more games on the test map....
meanwhile there are people here that are higher ranked than you, have played tons of games and continue to do so, and continue to learn new things about the new unit interactions.
as always, your input on this side of things is useless. 
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On August 24 2017 20:06 avilo wrote:
I still haven't bothered playing any more games on the test map because of these reasons:
a) no changes to tone down carriers, and mech AA is still just god awful = carriers every game
b) swarmhost changes do absolutely nothing. Needs huge nerfs to allow mech to be playable. Ask any decent meching Terran you'll get the same answer - swarmhost are too easy to use and have zero drawbacks from GOOD zergs
c) raven / widow mine are blatantly and severely nerfed while the other races lategames are kept the same or buffed.
Widow mines are frustrating? Yet an oracle being proxied and flying into your base if you don't have a turret is fine and fair? This type of bias is a turn off to a lot of people that play the game. It's always "nerf Terran" but if it's Z/P there are no corresponding changes made to the game.
The new raven doesn't impress me. It just gets flat out seeker missile nerfed, PDD is 1000x better than a healing drone, and sure scrambler is good, but it's only useful vs P/T whereas auto turrets are good vs all 3 races (tho auto turrets are imba imo just like swarmhosts).
Why does blizzard not suck it up and make thors do the flat damage with javelin missiles as has been proven previously to be able to demolish carriers and interceptors. Mech needs anti-air. We don't need gimmicks like fast transform that do nothing to solve the issue of "my opponent build 10 invincible carriers, i lose now."
I think too many people have the blinders on playing this test map. Mech is almost objectively worse due to the raven PDD removal/seeker ridiculous nerf, while swarmhost/carrier are left almost basically the same, and things like parasitic bomb, and infestors are getting massive buffs.
Oh, and a core mech unit like the widow mine CANNOT be nerfed.
The new update is just another wolf in sheeps clothing for any and all mech Terrans - straight up mech nerfs disguised as "mech viability" just like a year ago when tanks were buffed while also buffing swarmhosts to the insane level that they currently are at now.
I'm all for raven nerfs - but only if swarmhost/carrier are correspondingly fixed and nerfed. And it seems this isn't going to happen.
Yes that is my impression as well after having played on the test map. Mech is actually weaker compared to the live version.
Nerfing the Raven and giving it new weaker abilities to avoid mass Ravens was a good move.
But Swarm Hosts should have light tag so the counterplay against Swarm Hosts becomes stronger. Swarm Hosts should be a unit that you build a few of to harass bases or snipe a few tanks, not something that you can mass 20+ of just to hardcounter mech.
Carriers could lose 50 or so hitpoints so that Vikings and Thors actually could counter them.
To compensate BC could either get less hitpoints, less damage from yamoto or have a shared cooldown for yamoto/tactical jump.
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If they bring back the swoop upgrade the swarm host damage would not escalate as bad.
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Just a reminder that sitting in your base for 20 minutes isn't mech play.
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On August 24 2017 20:06 avilo wrote:
Widow mines are frustrating? Yet an oracle being proxied and flying into your base if you don't have a turret is fine and fair? This type of bias is a turn off to a lot of people that play the game. It's always "nerf Terran" but if it's Z/P there are no corresponding changes made to the game.
please see my basic guide for dealing with proxied Oracles earlier in this thread. its not exactly a work of genius. if u can't deal with proxied Oracles you're doing something wrong.
as evidenced in your comments you've been whining about Terran for years and at the top level of play Terrans just keep on winning. at my level of play Zerg is prolly a bit easier, however, the game is "balanced enough" .. My Zerg. Protoss and Terran rankings are all within 2 tiers of each other and have been since they introduced separate MMR per race. I'm in Diamond with all 3 races.
it's silly to expect Blizz to have the game perfectly balanced at 50 different levels of play.
Blizzard is doing a great job with this game and your non-stop slander of Kim and Browder are a small contributing factor in Blizzard's decision to hide the name of the person in charge of Multiplayer.
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On August 24 2017 16:06 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2017 13:55 hiroshOne wrote:On August 23 2017 16:03 WayTeh_ wrote:On August 23 2017 15:47 Thezzy wrote:On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote:On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote:It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game.
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game.
It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon? No , canon put you so much behind, its 300 minerals in early game , that you simply cant afford You mean like Terran building engineering bay and turrets when scouting oracles or DT rush? Or maybe Zerg building spores in each mineral line by the same reason? U think that they can afford it more? Yes?.... Engineering Bay: 125 Minerals Spore Crawler Bay: Doesn't Exist Forge: 150 Minerals Turret: 100 Minerals Spore Crawler: 75 Minerals Cannon: 150 Minerals Turret Air Dps: 39 Spore Air Dps: 24.4 Cannon: 22.4 By every metric cannons are the most expensive but least effective defense against oracles(I know that it requires a drone for zerg and the scv to continuously build it for terran but it's the upfront costs for a shitter version is the problem) Canons + forge also have the longest build time by far, so it's basically impossible to have a forge early enough to defend the oracle while also not falling behind on the ground units so you don't die to a poke at the front in PvP.
U seem to forget that Spore and Turret only hit air. Cannon hits everything. I would say that's the reason.
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Played a bit on the test server as Protoss. Altogether I am very happy with most changes. Few specific points:
1) I don't think the shield battery is enough for early defense. It is strong but costs a lot of energy, which is mainly a problem with early to midgame allins or just prolonged aggression at the beginning. I think it is necessary to boost early defense for Protoss, either lowering the energy cost, or perhaps just adding it to a separate building like in BW, lowering cost of Photon Cannon, or something else.
2) Wouldn't mind the changes being even more drastic, i.e even removing Adept and Tempest, of which addition a few years back has not improved the game and just tweaking their numbers will not fix them completely. The other gateway and air units seem to be enough design wise, of course, could be tweaked for rebalancing, but Adept does seem to overlap with Zealot/Stalker and Tempest with others too much. Virtually never watched or played a game in which Adepts and Tempest would play a fun role for the players nor spectators. As a Protoss player, I'd like to see them being removed even more than MSC. If it'd result in too low # of units for w/e reason, perhaps can Blizz come up with a new unit, for example Purifier sounds fun http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Canceled_StarCraft_II_Protoss_units
3) Revelation could still see a nerf. I remember that TY in an interview once said that it'd be good if Adept's shade cooldown was nerfed hard, but would return the shade's full vision. If Adept is to stay, perhaps it'd be best if Revelation was nerfed/removed and Adept was used for vision (being slightly more demanding and counterable)
4) More changes towards i) easier control (such as high templars with attack, observer's anchor, if just to contrast to bw) and ii) nerfing moments which can very quickly turn the game due to minor oversight (mines) are welcomed. i.e even as a Protoss it sucks if a solid tense game is ended just because an Oracle is sent to enemy's worker line, who is just a second late to respond. These moments should be minimised, and in fact I think that BW having less of them is reason why I don't have any ladder anxiety playing it. As mine drops were nerfed, Oracles could be, too.
To combine i) and ii) from Protoss perspective, I'd very much like to see a tool to defend entrance against Zerg. It is clunky to have a Zealot or Adept blocking an entrance and it ruins many games when it is not on hold or wrongly positioned, allowing Zergling spilling in. This creates a huge difference in balance between intermediate and pro players; as the latter is able to block it right away with Sentry or is just better with holding it with a zealot. But even on pro level, I've seen numerous toe to toe games which ended up in a moment by zerglings running in just because of Zealot being wrongly positioned or the Protoss being just a second late with force field.
The punishment is disproportionally larger to the mistake that is too easy to make, which is the similar case of Oracle, mines, etc., it's frustrating of everyone and should be changed. Something similar to Supply Depot lowering or at least sensor tower type of warning would be great.
5) With more resources per base, Carriers are probably not nerfed enough. Perhaps they will not be seen on pro level, but on intermediate skill level it'll still be well possible to stay on 3 bases and mass carriers and cause inbalance and feeling of unfairness for the opponent.
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There are people still playing this game even though remastered has come out. This game is a disaster and blizzards management of its growth has been so poor. How do they expect to develop a player base when they change the game entirely once a year
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Honestly the game is in a pretty ok state as is, a few things like carriers, swarmhosts, and hydrabane's dominance in pvz need adjusting but I don't think these changes are called for. I get that blizzard might be doing this just to shake things up, but these changes are very drastic and will have very negative effects on the game. Also it seems stupid to nerf both Terran and Protoss while leaving zerg pretty much the same and expecting that the fairly balanced game play of today will remain.
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On August 25 2017 01:05 seopthi wrote:Played a bit on the test server as Protoss. Altogether I am very happy with most changes. Few specific points: 1) I don't think the shield battery is enough for early defense. It is strong but costs a lot of energy, which is mainly a problem with early to midgame allins or just prolonged aggression at the beginning. I think it is necessary to boost early defense for Protoss, either lowering the energy cost, or perhaps just adding it to a separate building like in BW, lowering cost of Photon Cannon, or something else. 2) Wouldn't mind the changes being even more drastic, i.e even removing Adept and Tempest, of which addition a few years back has not improved the game and just tweaking their numbers will not fix them completely. The other gateway and air units seem to be enough design wise, of course, could be tweaked for rebalancing, but Adept does seem to overlap with Zealot/Stalker and Tempest with others too much. Virtually never watched or played a game in which Adepts and Tempest would play a fun role for the players nor spectators. As a Protoss player, I'd like to see them being removed even more than MSC. If it'd result in too low # of units for w/e reason, perhaps can Blizz come up with a new unit, for example Purifier sounds fun http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Canceled_StarCraft_II_Protoss_units3) Revelation could still see a nerf. I remember that TY in an interview once said that it'd be good if Adept's shade cooldown was nerfed hard, but would return the shade's full vision. If Adept is to stay, perhaps it'd be best if Revelation was nerfed/removed and Adept was used for vision (being slightly more demanding and counterable) 4) More changes towards i) easier control (such as high templars with attack, observer's anchor, if just to contrast to bw) and ii) nerfing moments which can very quickly turn the game due to minor oversight (mines) are welcomed. i.e even as a Protoss it sucks if a solid tense game is ended just because an Oracle is sent to enemy's worker line, who is just a second late to respond. These moments should be minimised, and in fact I think that BW having less of them is reason why I don't have any ladder anxiety playing it. As mine drops were nerfed, Oracles could be, too. To combine i) and ii) from Protoss perspective, I'd very much like to see a tool to defend entrance against Zerg. It is clunky to have a Zealot or Adept blocking an entrance and it ruins many games when it is not on hold or wrongly positioned, allowing Zergling spilling in. This creates a huge difference in balance between intermediate and pro players; as the latter is able to block it right away with Sentry or is just better with holding it with a zealot. But even on pro level, I've seen numerous toe to toe games which ended up in a moment by zerglings running in just because of Zealot being wrongly positioned or the Protoss being just a second late with force field. The punishment is disproportionally larger to the mistake that is too easy to make, which is the similar case of Oracle, mines, etc., it's frustrating of everyone and should be changed. Something similar to Supply Depot lowering or at least sensor tower type of warning would be great. 5) With more resources per base, Carriers are probably not nerfed enough. Perhaps they will not be seen on pro level, but on intermediate skill level it'll still be well possible to stay on 3 bases and mass carriers and cause inbalance and feeling of unfairness for the opponent.
Really good post, I agree with most of it.
I do maybe disagree with removing tempests, I think it's good for the game to have a siegebreaker. I think it would be interesting to make them more glass cannon-y, though. Maybe increase the damage ever so slightly but reduce their hp by a moderate amount, so you have to be super careful with them. Would make for a more tense back and forth.
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EPT
