EPTStarCraft II Multiplayer - Major Design Changes - Page 24
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16998 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
On August 22 2017 23:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I would say, remove 10hp from adept and give them to zealot.i kinda like the Zealot as is. i don't want it nerfed and if they decide to buff the Zealot in some way i'd like a health buff to make it more like the SC1/BW Zealot. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On August 22 2017 17:15 Foxxan wrote: Could see this work. At the same time, i want the swarmhost to work more like a tactic weapon instead of strategic weapon. Less cost of, less mobility, less power. More vulnerabilites. Should be a perfect weapon against a base which has no units there or has the wrong type of units there(siege tanks, storm, colossus, immortal). So its a good tool to draw the enemy somewhere. To keep him busy somewhere. While zerg attacks/do something else with his other units.. Or sometimes protect them. Forces the enemy to come to the swarmhosts. Right now this doesnt happen if i know correct( dont follow lotv, but watched hots, cant see much of a difference). And then increase micro of roach with its burrow. Would love to see some micro for hydra added.. But stalker should get the +1 range imo so stalker works more of hit and run type. Not sure what to make of hydra but something different than a kite unit. First idea i get is that after it has fired, its acceleration gets increased for a short while. "Right now this doesnt happen if i know correct( dont follow lotv, but watched hots, cant see much of a difference). " So you basically spewing out a load of crap from you mouth if i am reading this right | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game. It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. | ||
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Luongo
Canada15 Posts
It seems to me that people don't understand why removing shooting pylons is so good for the game. It shows that the design team understands what went wrong with the direction of the game. It gives us hope that, with PO gone, things like medivac boost, widow mines, muta regen, etc etc have a chance of going as well. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. | ||
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JWD[9]
364 Posts
On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote: It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D | ||
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Kenny_mk
50 Posts
On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote: PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. Concerning that, i'd rather have a adept nerf toward their light damage, and keeping PO :p (even if adept damage is on par with a Marine drop, fact too many times forgotten) I'd like to have a stalker egal to adept, which is'nt the case actually (since Stalker did'nt get buffed right? did'nt tried too much but from what i've read..) Stalker is present in armies mostly for air damage, for armored you rely mostly on immortals. Not that i'm a huge fan of PO, but to me game ending shade are more a problems and leave me a bad taste in mouth (both played &viewed), like T harass to death strats which is prevented mostly by... PO, yes you have to think about both side, without another DPS ability or even more HUGE changes, P players even at pro levels will die to harass & early agressions. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On August 23 2017 05:09 Luongo wrote: It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it is something that will be extremely hard to balance. Protoss depends so much on photon overcharge in the early-mid game that its removal throws the balance in all 3 matchups way out of whack, and will require some major, potentially game breaking changes to make up for it. The shield recharge is a cute idea, but it's not nearly a good enough solution. Going from a pylon and MSC requirement to a complete nexus, energy, and units to help defend is a massive difference, especially on a potential third base. PvP suffers the most, as now adept suicide harass into Stargate will be the standard every single game without overcharge, and even PvZ will be heavily lean towards stargate every game. So, you're somehow suggesting that the removal of PO might make Blizz take a look at nerfing Adepts. And this is a bad thing how? On a more serious note, we can either keep the status quo, with all it's problems and just apply bandaids, or we can get our hands dirty trying to fix the game. I, for one, am very glad we finally have a design team with the balls to make actual changes. Alot of people are acting like this is the end of Protoss, like if something is blatantly OP/UP won't be adressed. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
Every unit should have 1 default passive ability and 1 researchable active ability. This is the optimal way to design the game. 1 action and 1 ability/morph per unit. Examples of extreme problems not quite right at present: -Zealot charge is autocast not manually cast. -Lurkers cannot remorph into 2 hydras. _______________________________________ Also, what's hard about making a system where the interface figures out which group ability you would use first and offers them in the order you tend to use them, using VERY SIMPLE machine learning algorithm post-game, changing between games with a notification of changes in a change/cancel window? For example, right now, I want and try to stim marines, then a-move my control group army, then call cloak and emp with ghosts, then seeker missile something, then boost my medivacs forward onto hold position. But it's incredibly difficult to do this sequentially as I would like. I think, if I 10 times in a row chose to stim before seeker missile, the marine command card should show before the raven's, likewise etc. And the whole system of sequential orders could be automated like that using a partial order file (just a few kb). THAT ALONE would make the game 100X as FUN. | ||
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Creager
Germany1920 Posts
On August 23 2017 06:27 KR_4EVR wrote: To keep things simple: Every unit should have 1 default passive ability and 1 researchable active ability. This is the optimal way to design the game. 1 action and 1 ability/morph per unit. Examples of extreme problems not quite right at present: -Zealot charge is autocast not manually cast. -Lurkers cannot remorph into 2 hydras. _______________________________________ Also, what's hard about making a system where the interface figures out which group ability you would use first and offers them in the order you tend to use them, using VERY SIMPLE machine learning algorithm post-game, changing between games with a notification of changes in a change/cancel window? For example, right now, I want and try to stim marines, then a-move my control group army, then call cloak and emp with ghosts, then seeker missile something, then boost my medivacs forward onto hold position. But it's incredibly difficult to do this sequentially as I would like. I think, if I 10 times in a row chose to stim before seeker missile, the marine command card should show before the raven's, likewise etc. And the whole system of sequential orders could be automated like that using a partial order file (just a few kb). THAT ALONE would make the game 100X as FUN. And in what way is having a passive AND active ability per unit in the game keeping things simple? Lurkers remorphing into 2 Hydras? You on crack or sth.? Your problem mainly stems from laziness, try to have different control groups to circumvent the command card priority of units or become more proficient at using TAB. Having to learn how to manage your army properly shouldn't be something some algorithm more or less takes care of for you, it's a huge part of playing the game, after all. | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
Don't get me wrong, i like the idea and the concept of getting rid of frustrating game mechanics, but just nerfing widow mines is pretty inconsequential in my opinion. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16998 Posts
On August 23 2017 02:44 StarscreamG1 wrote: I would say, remove 10hp from adept and give them to zealot. hmmm interesting idea. i just love the relationship between the Zergling, Marine and Zealot in Brood War. i realize its prolly way too late to get things identical to that ideal relationship.. but the closer they can get... the better. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
On August 23 2017 09:18 Loccstana wrote: how about make ghosts a permanently cloaked unit just like the dt? How about we don't make the game even more cancerous ? | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote: I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16998 Posts
On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote: Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Reactored Cyclones and a couple of marines in each mineral line. its better than the current LotV ladder patch; that said the current ladder patch is good. your initial scouting SCV should be able to tell you if something is proxied.. then your 1st Reaper can usually find the Proxy if its anywhere near your base. If the proxy is far away Cyclones and Marines should be out by the time the Oracles arrive. if the proxy is close the Reaper attacking the pylon will force the Oracle to use energy unless the Protoss wants to surrender his pylon. | ||
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Beliskner
111 Posts
On August 23 2017 05:25 JWD[9] wrote: I had the exact opposite experience to your prediction. Shield recharge makes Adepts basically useless for harass, it even outperforms an oracle. So all it nets you to open stargate is slowing your opponents tech because you cost him his nexus energy. Since you can set it to autocast, in later stages, especially for low league players, this means that games no longer end in a second for them. Now only Terran needs a good oracle answer. I haven't had this much fun with sc2 since the short moment in Beta where they tested some really radical stuff for 1 week :D Not sure what you've been playing but 2 adepts 1 shot a probe, meaning it cannot be shield recharged. Sure if you're playing really bad players and the adepts are just shooting random stuff it helps, but if you let 2 adepts past you in PvP and they know how to focus fire..... it hurts real bad. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On August 23 2017 12:53 BronzeKnee wrote: Well that is music to my ears, because I figured that harass was going to dominate PvP. Wall off your base, plus Proxy Stargate into multiple Oracles would win so many games without Photon Overcharge. Stalkers just can't kill them fast enough before the Probes go down. Maybe I'm missing something but if you scout your opponent and you spot oracles, what is wrong with building a cannon to aid in defense? Won't you still be ahead of you hold it off with a cannon? | ||
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