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On August 22 2017 18:40 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 07:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On August 22 2017 07:13 VHbb wrote:On August 22 2017 07:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The test map is enjoyable. I need to hit strong players to see how difficult it has really become to handle early game aggression without a msc, but so far I find getting more units in the early game works just fine.
Recall is VERY abusive imo, especially lategame, on Nexi and or Mothership alike. The new stalker feels strong, monitoring blink timings again might become a necessity. I like the new overcharge, although making it 25 energy (like it was in HotS) would maybe make it more flexible.
Overall, promising. The interesting thing is that in the end, the game doesn't change much for people like me who already played blink colossi vT. So it's a "major" patch since the msc gets removed, but the overall feel of the game is preserved, this is good imo. How do you feel with the 4s delay associated with the recall ability? Does it feel too long, or sounds like a fair time? As a defender, you can get some free kills but it's not very punishing for the P. I think the radius and the low tech requirement are abusive. But I hope the ability itself stays. Having it to be researched could be interesting. I feel like the recall on nexus should have really small radius (something around strom or forcefiled radius) so could be used only on small tactical forces but the cost of recall should be decreased to 75 energy so it could be used vs chrono/shield as on 100energy I feel like it won't be used much (too restrictive).
i agree with the smaller radius - this is how the arbiter works in bw, and is the only reason the spell isn't ridiculously op.
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On August 22 2017 17:09 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 13:39 SHODAN wrote:
make cyclones microable again
scrap the 1A ground weapon and bring back ground-to-ground lock-on Yes. Also for protoss, make charge microable for the player.. with counter micro for enemy.. For stalker, make his blink with a much shorter cooldown, but lower range on it and some drawback to the ability. Immobile for 1sec after blink maybe.. Or something. Then increase stalker stats. Maybe 7range? Fits well with the slower attack. Need more micro.
Well toss is already harder than ppl think to handle mid-late game, im all for a blink nerf & stats boosts, but i feel like if you nerf blink either way (range or cd) you will only use it to blink back, not jump in base, because this move is most of time either without much effect or game ending for one of the sides.
+ Toss already have a bit too much abilities, having to blink all the time would be pretty tedious.
Also i'm all for trying charge being a movespeed bonus (+ another stats if needed), this should be more micro able (ala zergling) this way, because i fail to see how you can effectively micro chargelot even with changes, i guess even on highest level selecting the zealots to make them charge is hard, i think at best they disable autocast when they want to retreat or wait before engage, but once you want to go in you generally have more important micro moves to do.
edit: unless you gave them some sort of stim.But it's another spell to cast.
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On August 22 2017 19:10 Kenny_mk wrote:
Also i'm all for trying charge being a movespeed bonus (+ another stats if needed)
Doesn't charge make Zealots as fast as Stalkers right now?
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On August 22 2017 19:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 19:10 Kenny_mk wrote:
Also i'm all for trying charge being a movespeed bonus (+ another stats if needed)
Doesn't charge make Zealots as fast as Stalkers right now?
idk i don't play them too much (i should probably)
But look at speedlings :p , there is room.
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On August 22 2017 20:02 Kenny_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 19:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 22 2017 19:10 Kenny_mk wrote:
Also i'm all for trying charge being a movespeed bonus (+ another stats if needed)
Doesn't charge make Zealots as fast as Stalkers right now? idk i don't play them too much (i should probably) But look at speedlings :p , there is room.
I don't think Blizz should ever make zealots any where close to as fast as Zerglings because Zealots have so much more health/shield and do so much more damage than zerglings.
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On August 22 2017 19:10 Kenny_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 17:09 Foxxan wrote:On August 22 2017 13:39 SHODAN wrote:
make cyclones microable again
scrap the 1A ground weapon and bring back ground-to-ground lock-on Yes. Also for protoss, make charge microable for the player.. with counter micro for enemy.. For stalker, make his blink with a much shorter cooldown, but lower range on it and some drawback to the ability. Immobile for 1sec after blink maybe.. Or something. Then increase stalker stats. Maybe 7range? Fits well with the slower attack. Need more micro. Well toss is already harder than ppl think to handle mid-late game, im all for a blink nerf & stats boosts, but i feel like if you nerf blink either way (range or cd) you will only use it to blink back, not jump in base, because this move is most of time either without much effect or game ending for one of the sides. + Toss already have a bit too much abilities, having to blink all the time would be pretty tedious. Also i'm all for trying charge being a movespeed bonus (+ another stats if needed), this should be more micro able (ala zergling) this way, because i fail to see how you can effectively micro chargelot even with changes, i guess even on highest level selecting the zealots to make them charge is hard, i think at best they disable autocast when they want to retreat or wait before engage, but once you want to go in you generally have more important micro moves to do. edit: unless you gave them some sort of stim.But it's another spell to cast.
@stalker
Your point is good, if blink has shorter cd, its one more spell that needs to be pressed regularly. Perhaps same cooldown with a drawback and then a stat increase. Or if protoss could look at other spells instead/or aswell, that would be sweet. But i think its quite unlikely.
@zealot
If charge was manual click only, and on target point instead of target?
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On August 22 2017 18:00 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 17:15 Foxxan wrote:
Right now this doesnt happen if i know correct( dont follow lotv, but watched hots, cant see much of a difference).
I'm sorry, but what are we talking about? Hots and Lotv are entirely different games.. Lotv itself changed a lot from release. I get that you want to brainstorm and discuss, but it's hard if you don't follow the game, no?
Iam talking about making the swarmhost a more attractive unit to play and play against. To add more fun drawbacks to the unit.
I know you are a biased person, i know this from your past comments. But please, dont try and be negative.
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I'm for sure biased, like everyone else, and I'm also not nearly as competent as to comment on SC2 design, but at least I play and follow the game. How can one comment on gameplay and balance changes on a game that he does not follow?
Really Hots and Lotv are hugely different, the SH may be similar but the rest of the game changed so much that it does not make much sense in my eyes to try to talk about Lotv based on Hots experience..
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On August 22 2017 18:40 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 07:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On August 22 2017 07:13 VHbb wrote:On August 22 2017 07:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The test map is enjoyable. I need to hit strong players to see how difficult it has really become to handle early game aggression without a msc, but so far I find getting more units in the early game works just fine.
Recall is VERY abusive imo, especially lategame, on Nexi and or Mothership alike. The new stalker feels strong, monitoring blink timings again might become a necessity. I like the new overcharge, although making it 25 energy (like it was in HotS) would maybe make it more flexible.
Overall, promising. The interesting thing is that in the end, the game doesn't change much for people like me who already played blink colossi vT. So it's a "major" patch since the msc gets removed, but the overall feel of the game is preserved, this is good imo. How do you feel with the 4s delay associated with the recall ability? Does it feel too long, or sounds like a fair time? As a defender, you can get some free kills but it's not very punishing for the P. I think the radius and the low tech requirement are abusive. But I hope the ability itself stays. Having it to be researched could be interesting. I feel like the recall on nexus should have really small radius (something around strom or forcefiled radius) so could be used only on small tactical forces but the cost of recall should be decreased to 75 energy so it could be used vs chrono/shield as on 100energy I feel like it won't be used much (too restrictive).
I agree with that.
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On August 22 2017 17:24 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 17:20 Foxxan wrote:On August 22 2017 17:18 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 22 2017 17:15 Foxxan wrote:
First idea i get is that after it has fired, its acceleration gets increased for a short while.
It's kind of nice to have a honest unit without any weird gimmicks. Iam just brainstorming........................... Of course but when was the last time you used hydras and found them lackluster? It's not my point to shoot you down, but a unit being "clunky" (not sure a hydraulisk qualifies as clunky) gives them an inherent weakness that isn't just some arbitrary number like having bonus damage dealt to them by some unit. Hydras compared to roaches deal more damage with a longer range but they are also more brittle and they move slower so they're easier to catch. Which in a way moves the "micro the hydra" over to microing the supporting units to protect them, like lings or roaches. We don't really need to change this by making hydras very microable on their own. We could instead argue that we make hydras longer ranged, but slower, in my opinion.
I just want to feel more rewarded for controlling units in combat. I dont care if hydras are lackluster or not in this game, they arent microable which is a shame imo.
How to make them more microable is the question, and not if they are strong enough for not warranting any change.
If they get a range increase, then my suggestion to make stalkers a range increase as well might not work. Or maybe it could.
A longer range with slower movement speed sounds interesting on paper. A unit that needs support and that you need better and great decision with. Since its so slow, and getting caught offguard means dead unit.
I cant really think of anything great to do with it other than making it another roach with longer range. Thats the treatment they usally get if we look at roach/stalker/marauder. Slow attackspeed so you can move inbetween shots.
Idk. Maybe its unresonable.
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On August 22 2017 20:46 VHbb wrote:
I'm for sure biased, like everyone else, and I'm also not nearly as competent as to comment on SC2 design, but at least I play and follow the game. How can one comment on gameplay and balance changes on a game that he does not follow?
Really Hots and Lotv are hugely different, the SH may be similar but the rest of the game changed so much that it does not make much sense in my eyes to try to talk about Lotv based on Hots experience..
I was talking about swarmhost, which is very similar. Balance iam not discussing. And units have stayed the same from hots to lotv so i dont see any problem with this whatsoever. You appaerantly do, did you know we are in the design thread over here and not in the balance thread?
Your bias is huge mate, not normal.
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Well design and balance should go together I think 
I'm not sure I get what you mean by biased, but it's possible I'm misunderstanding - I don't play zerg so I don't have strong bias pro/against SH anyway.
edit:
"I feel like the recall on nexus should have really small radius (something around strom or forcefiled radius) so could be used only on small tactical forces but the cost of recall should be decreased to 75 energy so it could be used vs chrono/shield as on 100energy I feel like it won't be used much (too restrictive)."
This seems very nice, and it should also encourage using the recall to defend vs harassment rather than moving the whole army around - I like it, and having a smaller radius would also "feel" more micro-able
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Russian Federation104 Posts
I am shocked how people write that they like this patch. Why even fixing what is not broken? Now we have nice diversity in all MA and balance aswell.
New changes will absolutely ruin PvP (probably the worst) PvT and PvZ, and here is why
First of all PvP. As we all remember at the beggining of LotV we had serious issues with adept menta, and even though we have adepts nerfed it wont affect early game. One of the most disgusting things in the early LotV were endless trades with adepts, where both players try to kill as many probes as possible. Before we had pylon overcharged that was exlusively the most efficient play, stalkers dont kill adepts fast enough, nexus overcharge has insane cd (because of manacost ofc) and has not that high dps aswell. Now the only option will be either building wall or building adepts. Second point is that stargate play also become almost mandatory, since oracles will be extremely annoying and it is much easier build 1 oracle than keep 3 stalker in each mineral line. Morevoer meta will obviously swith towards 1 base play.
PvT. Here we have rly tough times against terran agresion and especially 2-4 medivac drops, even in current patch they can be dangerous to protoss. In WoL we dealt with that, but in wall there were no liberators and medivac boost. Speaking about terran agression it will be really hard to deal with early cyclones if you try expand fast. On the other hand because of chronoboost and widow mine changes protoss allins will become much stronger, all that obviously leads to rediculus gimmicy meta with 2\1 base allins.
PvZ. Even in current patchhydra/ling/bane is a pretty strong comb, which protoss often strugle against. Without PO and basically no changes to either of these units, or protoss gateway units (stalker basically have the same dps in straight up fight) it will be extremely hard to hold. On the other hand we have new colossi, but it is very specific unit, which becomes usless agains roaches, also by choosing this tech path you struggle against muta, which means there is no reliable compostiton, so you should guess even more than now. The other thing to take into account is extremly dangerous early ling drop agression and nidus worm, which is not that easy to hold, without PO they will become extremely powerful. So you either play 3gate nexus and suffer in macro, go for forge expand which is buy the way extremely vunurable to ling drops and delays your tech insanely or just hope that zerg will let you get away with standard current patch nexus.
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On August 22 2017 16:15 avilo wrote:
What do people think about my idea of making swarmhosts have the LIGHT tag so that hellions can chase them down, thereby giving an actual vulnerability and counter play for mech Terrans.
The speed nerf alone is not enough.
This is a good idea. Swarm Hosts need some kind of counter and this is a good solution since it encourages the mech player to be active with hellions on the map.
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They made a drastic design change to the widow mine because it's too frustrating to deal with, but at the same time they dont touch oracles, burrow fungals, banelings, baneling mines, adept shades,... the list goes on.
Those are all extremely frustrating game mechanics, so i wonder why only the widow mine gets changed.
If your design direction really switched to "less frustrating game ending moments", then you should take a look on more mechanics than just widow mines.
In the current testmap protoss got an easier life because of changes like the widow mine or the changes to HT's and observers to make the race more A-move friendly. Meanwhile Zerg and terran still have to deal with the annoying frustrating stuff.
- Remove burrow fungal
- Make droplords Tier2 again.
- Nydus worm isn't invincible, but has increased health.
- Maximum armor of ultralisks reduced to 6.
- Move ravager to tier2
- Remove swarmhosts (seriously)
- Reduce queen AA range by 1
- Remove liberator
- Remove reaper grenade
- Remove BC blink or atleast let it share cooldown with yamato
- Remove banshee speed upgrade.
- Sieged up tanks can't get abducted or lifted by phenix
- Increase interceptor cost to 25
- Remove adept
- Nerf revelation / Redesign oracle into support unit
when is ask people why they quit lotv, they usually say things like "Too fast, too many hardcounters, too much harass"
Casuals just can't keep up with how lotv plays.
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On August 22 2017 16:15 avilo wrote:
What do people think about my idea of making swarmhosts have the LIGHT tag so that hellions can chase them down, thereby giving an actual vulnerability and counter play for mech Terrans.
The speed nerf alone is not enough.
On August 22 2017 21:21 MockHamill wrote:
This is a good idea. Swarm Hosts need some kind of counter and this is a good solution since it encourages the mech player to be active with hellions on the map.
Swarmhosts already are defenseless and slow if they are caught off guard. How fast do you think they should die to hellions really?
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The widow mine is frustating because of its splash (40), two can kill a mineral mine. (even yesterday Maru vs Stats). I don't get it why it should be easier to kill them. A-move ftw.
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On August 22 2017 21:46 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The widow mine is frustating because of its splash (40), two can kill a mineral mine. (even yesterday Maru vs Stats). I don't get it why it should be easier to kill them. A-move ftw.
Because right now they can shoot twice before detection is done, or terran can simply lift them up. Tons of damage for no risk.
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i must say the unit skins for Terran are fucking amazing. when i colour my team red ... its like the Brotherhood of Nod are taking down the godless aliens...
PEACE THRU POWER!
On August 22 2017 21:40 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:
They made a drastic design change to the widow mine because it's too frustrating to deal with, but at the same time they dont touch oracles, burrow fungals, banelings, baneling mines, adept shades,... the list goes on.
Those are all extremely frustrating game mechanics, so i wonder why only the widow mine gets changed.
every RTS i've ever played has frustrating aspects and frustrating unit interactions when you are getting outplayed. this negative is fundamental to the nature of the genre and the input interface.
the flip side is ... do you jump up and down and yell at the screen when u pull ur marines back and your marauders take the baneling hits?
sure, banelings and zerglings are a PITA to deal with.. but corralling them and burning them to a crisp is fun.
if a game mechanic results in seething anger and frustration for the loser and the winner of the match who is similar in skill level finds what they had to do to win was boring then you might have an issue. maybe.
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On August 22 2017 20:36 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2017 19:10 Kenny_mk wrote:On August 22 2017 17:09 Foxxan wrote:On August 22 2017 13:39 SHODAN wrote:
make cyclones microable again
scrap the 1A ground weapon and bring back ground-to-ground lock-on Yes. Also for protoss, make charge microable for the player.. with counter micro for enemy.. For stalker, make his blink with a much shorter cooldown, but lower range on it and some drawback to the ability. Immobile for 1sec after blink maybe.. Or something. Then increase stalker stats. Maybe 7range? Fits well with the slower attack. Need more micro. Well toss is already harder than ppl think to handle mid-late game, im all for a blink nerf & stats boosts, but i feel like if you nerf blink either way (range or cd) you will only use it to blink back, not jump in base, because this move is most of time either without much effect or game ending for one of the sides. + Toss already have a bit too much abilities, having to blink all the time would be pretty tedious. Also i'm all for trying charge being a movespeed bonus (+ another stats if needed), this should be more micro able (ala zergling) this way, because i fail to see how you can effectively micro chargelot even with changes, i guess even on highest level selecting the zealots to make them charge is hard, i think at best they disable autocast when they want to retreat or wait before engage, but once you want to go in you generally have more important micro moves to do. edit: unless you gave them some sort of stim.But it's another spell to cast. @stalker Your point is good, if blink has shorter cd, its one more spell that needs to be pressed regularly. Perhaps same cooldown with a drawback and then a stat increase. Or if protoss could look at other spells instead/or aswell, that would be sweet. But i think its quite unlikely. @zealot If charge was manual click only, and on target point instead of target?
We won't have all spell in one windows i think, too much work for blizzard (hotkey conflicts etc)
Also charging on point would'nt change much, if it's for "c click" with my zealot, i'd just rather have them on autocast when needed, unless you take away the auto-cast to force the micro, but that would'nt be casual friendly at all.
Of course they shouldn't be as fast as zergling, (oh i mean come on slightly less than speedlings just on test server :p for fun) but id rather have them pretty fast without charge, more micro-able i think, ala zergling.
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EPT
