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On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time.
Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there.
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France12911 Posts
On November 14 2016 23:56 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 23:48 Poopi wrote:
Thanks so much it makes the game more understandable but it's a bit weird. Cyclones don't aa air but they can lock air? So they could attack air without locking before?
What is the difference between auto lock and no auto lock, I have played a few games with cyclone pre patch and I still don't get how they work, such a weird unit. Auto lock = lock-on is casted on the first target that gets in range No auto lock = you need to use the hotkey and target something Cyclones after the patch will have a regular anti-ground attack (pew pew pew hundreds of missiles) and a very weak version of lock-on (it does like 160 damage over 14 seconds so 1 cyclone can't even kill an overlord) that you need to use manually and that only works on air units. Before the patch cyclones automatically lock-on to targets (unless you disable the automatic use of the ability) both on the ground and in the air. But they also have a basic attack (that many people probably don't see very often because for all intents and purposes lock-on is the main use of the cyclone on the current patch) against both ground and air targets that they only use when lock-on is on cooldown.
Yeah but when I played it I had no idea if manually casting was faster or if the only advantage was to select the target in case there are multiple ones. The other attack seemed quite shit.
Since lock on is nerfed but normal atk buffed against ground, the idea is to mass them and a click?
They changed the Thor yet again :x, it's getting complicated trying to follow all the changes.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 15 2016 05:06 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time. Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there.
Mutalisks will definitely return as a staple Lair unit, and I expect the Hydra buffs will push them into being decent against bio.
The main issue with ZvX midgame is that ling/bane/muta and ling/bane/infestor are the only compositions with any meaningful synergy. All roach variants are very clunky and don't scale into the lategame.
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i would love to see the Thor designed to be a counter for heavy hitting ground units like immortal or ultras, and letting air deal with air, would make more sense to me.
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Inestor change ok, Adept change mkay - the rest oh dear.. saying anything will get me banned but its all complete bullsh*t and just proves again that a certain game dev has very little clue on how to do an rts.. very sad.. very, very sad
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 15 2016 05:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2016 05:06 Probe1 wrote:On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time. Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there. Mutalisks will definitely return as a staple Lair unit, and I expect the Hydra buffs will push them into being decent against bio. The main issue with ZvX midgame is that ling/bane/muta and ling/bane/infestor are the only compositions with any meaningful synergy. All roach variants are very clunky and don't scale into the lategame.
ling/bane/hydra seems super cool now, maybe we might even see some lurkers, tankivacs shut them down, but vs normal siege tanks you can unburrow and retreat, BW style
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On November 15 2016 04:24 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2016 04:19 DinoMight wrote:
I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how. Aren't you afraid of a ghost? We just had the GSL balance test map tournament and not even one single TvP was mech. Nobody even bother trying to play mech in TvP, yet you think it might be too strong. Phoenix openings are probably very good vs mech because now cyclones can't kill any air units. Disruptors are probably quite good as well, considering how slow every mech units is and that tanks can't be put in medivacs anymore.
Oh, I didn't watch it. That's why I was asking.
I'm sure it will take a little time for the game to get figured out. All they've done is buff mech but they haven't changed bio. Koreans typically are more concerned with winning than trying new things when they play in tournaments.
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4713 Posts
On November 15 2016 05:38 ivancype wrote:
i would love to see the Thor designed to be a counter for heavy hitting ground units like immortal or ultras, and letting air deal with air, would make more sense to me.
Letting air deal with air is very uninteresting in SC2 and generally has lead to some of the most boring games imaginable.
Don't get me wrong, I like air units, but SC2's are poorly designed.
Let me explain.
Air units should, in general, be designed around the axiom of being fast, maneuverable but short-range and fragile.
This is due to the fact that air units can bypass terrain, entrenchments and armies, they have a very strong tactical advantage and must have a suitable weakness.
The most fun and successful such units in SC2 have been phoenixes and mutalisks, in BW other good examples were wraiths, scouts and corsairs.
Just think back to the epic wraith vs muta/scourge or muta vs muta fights from BW, or the dance between phoenixes and mutalisks, those units are so fast and responsive that the victor is usually determined by who can control his units better.
When air units can reach such a point that they can fight toe to toe with ground units that delicate axiom is broken and air units become the go to end-game.
In SC2 this has resulted in BL/Viper armies, Air-Toss and Sky Terran, which are extremely boring compositions to watch, play and play against. These armies are boring because they are slow, unresponsive and unresponsive, thus they are not suitable for snap micro like you have with phoenixes or mutas and thus are best used in a a-move.
It is thus paramount that ground units at all times hold the advantage in a head to head fight so as to force the air army to coax the most out of its mobility advantage.
The problem now is that we have many capital ship type units in the game that, after a certain critical mass, can not only fight toe to toe with their ground counters, but can even beat them, this should just not happen.
The reason why BW carrier was so beloved and such a successful capital ship is because it wasn't designed like a SC2 capital ship, it was designed more like mutalisks.
Carriers didn't have speed but they had ranged and they shined in situations where they could abuse that range coupled with terrain. Carriers were really bad against mass Goliaths if caught out and could be easily sniped.
I hope that after this patch the community can finally agree upon this fact and we can push for a general rework of air units in SC2.
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On November 15 2016 06:09 Destructicon wrote:
The reason why BW carrier was so beloved and such a successful capital ship is because it wasn't designed like a SC2 capital ship, it was designed more like mutalisks.
Huh?? The carrier is almost exactly the same thing it was in BW.
But it's such a late game unit that the circumstances around its construction are totally different. The game state for Carriers to be produced need to favor the Protoss considerably in SC2.
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this means that Bio, is totally useless now. thanks for lettin us play mmm for 6 years and suddnely make it impossible to play.
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On November 14 2016 23:45 Salteador Neo wrote:
Thanks a ton for this, really needed such a thread :D
Protoss changes are just boring, terran looks fun and zerg gets midgame mad buffs (hydra, bane, infestor).
yeh only place where terran maybe had an edge over zerg was midgame. go blizz. balanceexperts
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thanks for adding the DK interview video for additional insight. With all the C&C guys now @ Blizz i'm sure that "Mech" is really the GDI fantasy squad for them.
that ATVI jacket DK has on rules! i was thinking he should have a graph underneath the logo indicating ATVI's stock price the past 7 years to make us all realize how wonderful ATVI is and always has been 
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Protoss changes completely destroys team games. DTs and Carriers already were pain in the ass and now they get buffed more. It is pity of how developers don't care about it.
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On November 15 2016 07:05 saltis wrote:
Protoss changes completely destroys team games. DTs and Carriers already were pain in the ass and now they get buffed more. It is pity of how developers don't care about it.
Games worth thousands of dollars are played in 1v1, not team games, end of story
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What I don't like is -disclaimer : I played 1 game in the testing ladder, in which I proceeded to blink DTs rush- that from what I understand, P will have to rely heavily on getting an invincible air armada now (opening phoenix / VRs and then transitioning to buffed carriers). And I don't think that's a good way to make P gameplay evolve : it's just another kind of turtle into a-move deathball. Not that that would truly bother me, this is the style I'm the best with after all, but this won't contribute to making P more beloved.
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On November 15 2016 05:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2016 05:06 Probe1 wrote:On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time. Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there. Mutalisks will definitely return as a staple Lair unit, and I expect the Hydra buffs will push them into being decent against bio. The main issue with ZvX midgame is that ling/bane/muta and ling/bane/infestor are the only compositions with any meaningful synergy. All roach variants are very clunky and don't scale into the lategame.
I like you. I was going to write that but decided I'd rather play a match.
I crushed it with good mid game bile harass on mineral lines from ledges. I don't like roach ravager but I feel like I can control the tempo. Terran isn't free to just mass econ or drop everywhere and anywhere like ling bane low tech ultra rushing.
I cannot wait for libs to loose some luster and having mutas be a good investment again.
On November 15 2016 06:23 MiCroLiFe wrote:
this means that Bio, is totally useless now. thanks for lettin us play mmm for 6 years and suddnely make it impossible to play.
I have been playing since beta and I can tell you with authority that every single time Terran has gotten a balance change they have screamed this.
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Why did they remove the medivac tank interaction completely? Why not make sieged tanks able to be picked up and become unsieged in the medivac?
You could still use the pickup defensively but not drop the sieged tanks any more.
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Tanks changes are great, Liberator change is great, Cyclone change is the wrong direction for the unit imo mech needed fast response to air and Thors no matter how hard they hit are very slow but they seem like they will be way better against Protoss.
New Hydralisks are amazing, I've played with them in the test map, the unit feels strong for once. Haven't tried the Infestor stuff out yet admittedly though. Ultralisks armor nerf was long overdue even as a Zerg player they are just OP vs bio
Protoss changes feel meh, I feel like Stalkers should have been buffed and Immortals nerfed, coupled with an Oracle redesign into a no economy damage utility unit, but whatever, DT's being more useful should be cool but it's just yet again buffing Protoss economy harassment which they already have a plethora of powerful worker killing units.
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On November 15 2016 07:55 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Tanks changes are great, Liberator change is great, Cyclone change is the wrong direction for the unit imo mech needed fast response to air and Thors no matter how hard they hit are very slow but they seem like they will be way better against Protoss.
New Hydralisks are amazing, I've played with them in the test map, the unit feels strong for once. Haven't tried the Infestor stuff out yet admittedly though. Ultralisks armor nerf was long overdue even as a Zerg player they are just OP vs bio
Protoss changes feel meh, I feel like Stalkers should have been buffed and Immortals nerfed, coupled with an Oracle redesign into a no economy damage utility unit, but whatever, DT's being more useful should be cool but it's just yet again buffing Protoss economy harassment which they already have a plethora of powerful worker killing units.
Let's not forget the cheeseray buff and the adept now relying on a near-complete gamble as an harass tool, while the tempest got a 7 seconds stun.
Played the test map a little and it's horrible. Infestors makes most move outs against zerg a gamble (you don't have scans for the whole map), cyclones are so bad at AA that TvT devolves into an idiotic "take a third then mass vikings ravens and liberators", and mech is still crap against protoss because disruptors still outrange tanks and because phenixes openers don't allow mech to move out unit you have 3 thors.
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I don't think they're getting it right with the tempest. Add an ability to that unit doesnt seems very constructive to the game. Why stun ? Why 7 seconds ??? It is any different from the oracle's trap ?
With the cyclone's change, it with hurt alot of the unit's micro potential but make the unit generally stronger.
In the video, DK also said Thor's going to be one of the core Anti-air for terran. The problem is, it doesnt matter how hard you buff its damage or splash, a unit like thor is forever too slow to catch up with moving flying target, not to mention that the thor doesnt even deal that much damage.
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EPT
