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On November 16 2016 00:16 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2016 23:59 MockHamill wrote:
Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
You are definitely not the only one worried. Mech's increase in strength is heavily exaggerated. Take the tank for instance. People say that they have been extremely buffed, but this is not really true. The tank was basically buffed against armored units. Against non-armored the buff was almost marginal. At the same time, the tank was also NERFED by not being able to be picked up by medivacs, yet everyone seems to "forget" about this. In TvZ, tanks become stronger vs roaches and ultralisks. But what if they use a composition of ling/bane/hydras? Is the marginal non-armored buff and the nerf of no tankivacs a net buff? I hardly think so. The viper is still the bane of any mech compositions anyway. Abduct thors, blind cloud tanks, and PB vikings. In TvP, tanks are essentially stronger vs stalkers and immortals. What if they use a stargate/adept/archon composition? The buff is now almost irrelevant. The cyclones is almost the same thing. Good vs stalkers and meh against pretty much everything else. In fact, many argue that the new cyclones is actually worse, because now mech has no answer to oracles/phoenix openings. The AA dmg was heavily nerfed. It's hard to actually access TvP mech because NO PRO players even attempt it. It is that bad. Regarding Blizzard, I honestly don't think they are actually trying to make mech viable. It's mostly PR to me. If that was the case why would they go all the way to make sure we don't have goliaths instead of thors? Blizzard is more interested in telling the players they are actually trying, while just ignoring the obvious flaws.
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity. We might have even seen a build that could contend with 14 minute no rush Infestor/Brood Lord if we had decent Siege Tanks during that era.
In Legacy of the Void however? I don't think it will make that much of a difference. One of Mech's biggest weaknesses is in its mobility, and if your opponent finds any way to slip past your defences, you're basically dead. This is especially the case with LotV tier harassment.
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On November 15 2016 23:48 Tchado wrote:
Blink to DTs ? I dont know about this.......
It's probably not actually problematic considering they had blink anyway with the WP but the fact that they thought it needed to be implemented put a big extra dent in my confidence about the future of the game. At least for me it's proof they don't know how, or better, where to improve the game. On the contrary even, this focus on harassment and constant adding of abilities is exactly what NOT needs to happen. Imo.
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I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
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On November 16 2016 02:25 Clbull wrote:
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity.
Did you play Wings? Siege Tanks were incredibly strong early on, mostly because maps were tiny and you could siege up a lot of mineral lines from the low ground.
A Siege Tank sieged up in the middle of map on Steppes of War could hit both players natural ramps.
When maps got huge, positional play and Siege Tanks became terrible and never recieved compensatory buffs.
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On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote:
I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
Are you "on" something ? I bet you are not zerg player or a subscriber of avilo. So you want to nerf everything that zerg have - delete key units, no fungal in sc2 anymore... you must be like top gm when zerg is that easy. Are you sure about being a zerg player ?
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Not even Trump could make Protoss great again. Failed design can't be patched, it must be re-designed. Buffed Carriers and DT's - epitome of failure.
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On November 16 2016 03:31 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 02:25 Clbull wrote:
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity. Did you play Wings? Siege Tanks were incredibly strong early on, mostly because maps were tiny and you could siege up a lot of mineral lines from the low ground. A Siege Tank sieged up in the middle of map on Steppes of War could hit both players natural ramps.
lol i remember so terrible
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My god is this still dragging on, why don't they get it done and over with. It should have rolled out right after GSL
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On November 15 2016 20:46 Musicus wrote:
Honestly, I've been a playing a bit and I don't understand the baneling buff at all, just a random change out of nowhere tbh. If ByuN focus firing banelings is the reason for this, it's a bit weird imo.
Then there is Blink DTs, a change that will do nothing on higher level, apart from a DT or two being saved sometimes. In lower leagues on the other hand, this will make the games even more frustrating and drive new players insane.
Those two and the random Viking change is something I don't get, but none of them will make a huge impact I think.
I guess to make Muta/blings more viable?
And I guess to make DT's less hardcountered by detections in the late game.
And I guess to make Viking harass more of a thing.
Overall though, I am not really that big of a fan of what Blizzad is doing here.
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On November 16 2016 04:44 Topdoller wrote:
My god is this still dragging on, why don't they get it done and over with. It should have rolled out right after GSL
Because Blizzcon obviously.
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On November 16 2016 03:31 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 02:25 Clbull wrote:
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity. Did you play Wings? Siege Tanks were incredibly strong early on, mostly because maps were tiny and you could siege up a lot of mineral lines from the low ground. A Siege Tank sieged up in the middle of map on Steppes of War could hit both players natural ramps. When maps got huge, positional play and Siege Tanks became terrible and never recieved compensatory buffs.
Yes, I played WoL. About 3500+ games total in fact.
That was more down to flawed map design than anything else. Blizzard map design during WoL was notoriously craptacular, and was the reason why tournaments overwhelmingly adopted community maps. Only during HotS and LotV did we see Blizzard make an actual effort with standardising the map pool and regulating it across all tournaments.
It's a worst-kept secret that the Siege Tank sucked. It wasn't even used viably in TvP until the Siegeivac change, and in HotS, the Widow Mine phased it out in 2 of 3 matchups.
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tvz is kinda imbalanced now. ive played thepatch,. mech is useless. mutas is stronger than ever before. whit the lib and cyclone suck vs them. you cant go bio anymore. 6 minute burrowed infestor wreck any agression
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I still want 6 worker start and worker splitting back ;(
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yeah i'm not a fan at all of the mid game starting at 2:00
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On November 16 2016 08:38 AssyrianKing wrote:
I still want 6 worker start and worker splitting back ;(
Nah, you don't. They know your needs better. You definitely want some blink DTs.
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On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote:
I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man...
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On November 16 2016 14:59 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote:
I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit. So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man...
He's not wrong about hydras melting though. I'd take health over range.
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On November 16 2016 15:04 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 14:59 hiroshOne wrote:On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote:
I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit. So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man... He's not wrong about hydras melting though. I'd take health over range.
Well that was the thing that TLO and few other pros proposed in HOTS era. But in the other hand- range and speed makes Hydralisk a unit which can give u value with micro- something that Zerg was lacking forever. Terran has BIO splits and snipes, Toss has Blink and shit. Zerg had nothing, and i think Blizzard with buffing hydras like that wants to change it.
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I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
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EPT
