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On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote:
I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
Goliath is already there but looks uglier. Instead of doing the obvious of buffing the AA and nerfing the AG attack... they buffed the AG and removed AA attack (only a super weak lock on now).
Surely there are some good steps ahead in those changes, but also some steps that don't make any sense.
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On November 16 2016 15:32 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 15:04 Probe1 wrote:On November 16 2016 14:59 hiroshOne wrote:On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote:
I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit. So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man... He's not wrong about hydras melting though. I'd take health over range. Well that was the thing that TLO and few other pros proposed in HOTS era. But in the other hand- range and speed makes Hydralisk a unit which can give u value with micro- something that Zerg was lacking forever. Terran has BIO splits and snipes, Toss has Blink and shit. Zerg had nothing, and i think Blizzard with buffing hydras like that wants to change it.
Wait what? I don't follow how giving it 25% speed on creep is going to make it a micro unit. We're not going to be dropping hydras in mineral lines or splitting and flanking. They'll still be slow.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
Can anybode explain some things:
1) How Hydra speed changed?
2) What's behind Baneling buff?
3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
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On November 16 2016 18:00 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote:
I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness? Goliath is already there but looks uglier. Instead of doing the obvious of buffing the AA and nerfing the AG attack... they buffed the AG and removed AA attack (only a super weak lock on now). Surely there are some good steps ahead in those changes, but also some steps that don't make any sense.
As been mentioned through out the ages, the easiest and cleaniest solution would be to have BOTH:
1. Clunky Thor Anti Air with slow attack speed, long range, +light AoE - good against clumped light units (mainly mutas, phoenixes). Good synergy with bio when entering mid/late game.
2. relatively fast Goliath/Cyclon Anti Air with moderate attack speed, good damage, moderate range (with later upgrade buffing the range), +armored no AoE, no Lock-on - good against single targets (drops, banshees, oracles etc., after range upgrade decent against broodlords, carriers etc.). Good synergy with mech, good early game defense tool against aerial harass.
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On November 16 2016 18:15 Jenia6109 wrote:
Can anybode explain some things:
1) How Hydra speed changed?
2) What's behind Baneling buff?
3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
1) Hydra speed now gives a 25% speed buff to the Hydra permanently. On and off creep. It used to give the Hydras a speed buff off creep only , but now they are also faster on creep after you get the upgrade.
2) No idea honestly, the baneling was used more than enough imo. I guess they just want to buff the zerg mid game and also want to see Muta/ling/bane back, as suggested by the Liberator change.
3) Well they, uhm, you see, well... hmmmm. Obviously Vikings needed a buff vs Probes and Stalkers when being landed, but not vs Drones and Roaches! Makes total sense, trust me! Probably they wanted landing your vikings a viable option in mech vs mech games, to break siege tank lines or something.
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I think they wanted to give vikings another use in TvP and TvT after killing any Collo/Prism/Medivac/Lib there might be, because their stats when landed just suck. In TvZ they can always be used to hunt overlords, so they don't really need a buff I guess. Sad part is they made it a better harass tool too, as if there weren't enough of those already.
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U always want to engage on creep anyway so that's why Hydra speed buff will help- according to Probe1"s doubts. When it comes to baneling HP buff it's not so bad as they moved it to the speed upgrade. I think the idea behind this is to enforce banelings in midgame, as lately we saw Terrans not even splitting vs Banelings- only targetfire them and because of that they never lots position- now it's gonna be harder i suppose. And because hp buff is aviable after hooks upgrade, it won't break early game ZvZ and won't make baneling busts defence impossible.
When it comes to Vikings, i think Blizzard is adressing the fact that mostly in TvP they were situations like vs Collosus compositions or Tempests, that when Terran killed Toss air, often was losing all ground army and had lots of dead supply in those vikings. Now, they will be more useful in the matchup. In TvT- it's pretty much the same situation. In ZvT i think it never was the case, as Terran almost always stays ahead after taking good or even engagement- it's all about Zerg remax that comes bit later. That's why there's no need to buff vikings against biological.
P.S. - I remember how cancerous were mass viking harras in WOL, especially on those maps with lots of highgrounds and shit. I still hear IdrA's voice raging XD
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On November 16 2016 18:15 Jenia6109 wrote:
Can anybode explain some things:
1) How Hydra speed changed?
2) What's behind Baneling buff?
3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
The baneling buff seems pretty neat for early ZvZ. It's easier to deflect early ling rushes.
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On November 16 2016 20:29 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 18:15 Jenia6109 wrote:
Can anybode explain some things:
1) How Hydra speed changed?
2) What's behind Baneling buff?
3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
The baneling buff seems pretty neat for early ZvZ. It's easier to deflect early ling rushes.
You need lair and the speed upgrade for the extra 10hp, this change does not affect early ZvZ.
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I think it will but not the early game. Giving hydras more prominence across all match ups can lead to a counter bane speed play. Hydras disappear when banelings hit em.
Obv this is mid-late and not early.
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On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote:
I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
didn't they already went over this in blizzcon? it overlaps with thor too much.
and honestly I don't really get what's the obsession with goliath.
it's not unqie nor does it have any interesting mechanics.
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Love this. Love this patch. GJ Blizzard !
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On November 16 2016 20:43 Probe1 wrote:
I think it will but not the early game. Giving hydras more prominence across all match ups can lead to a counter bane speed play. Hydras disappear when banelings hit em.
Obv this is mid-late and not early.
4 shots to kill the new speed Baneling vs 3 shots to kill the old Baneling. Sounds pretty good.
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On November 16 2016 04:44 Topdoller wrote:
My god is this still dragging on, why don't they get it done and over with. It should have rolled out right after GSL
i know eh? they balanced Brood War is about 4 days... talk about an inefficient bureaucracy! clearly they're paying David Kim by the hour because he is just creating work for himself.
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On November 17 2016 01:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
David Kim is just creating work for himself.
Can't put it any better. Pretty much summs up everything's happening with SC2.
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Nerf vipers, it's way way too OP
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On November 17 2016 07:15 beefITek wrote:
Nerf vipers, it's way way too OP
I agree. Trying to make mech viable is pointless if vipers are left as a hard counter to all mech units, both ground and air.
I applaud the effort Blizzard has made with this patch.
But the end result is that mech is still not viable outside of TvT.
People that think otherwise have simply not played enough on the test map.
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On November 16 2016 22:05 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote:
I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness? didn't they already went over this in blizzcon? it overlaps with thor too much. and honestly I don't really get what's the obsession with goliath. it's not unqie nor does it have any interesting mechanics.
The goliath allowed for mech pushes to be prominent because they where good in somewhat small-medium numbers. One of Flash builds worked like this, he did a push that hit before a protoss could get an ammount of carriers that could get out of control.
The thor is the polar opposite, it is atrocious in small numbers, wich means it forces you to get a critical ammount of thors to attack, wich means a big part of your time you are just sitting in your base trying to stay alive while you get enough units to actually attack.
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I think they should increase the fire-rate of Thor or its movement speed and reduce range of abduct. Aside from that I honestly think this patch is amazing you can tell David Kim and his team are working very hard to make Mech work so you gotta appreciate their effort 
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On November 17 2016 07:48 MockHamill wrote:I agree. Trying to make mech viable is pointless if vipers are left as a hard counter to all mech units, both ground and air. I applaud the effort Blizzard has made with this patch. But the end result is that mech is still not viable outside of TvT. People that think otherwise have simply not played enough on the test map.
Vipers are the only way to deal with a mech army for Zerg in late game.
What do you want? To just auto win if you max out? Build missile turrets. Build thors. Build vikings.
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EPT
