It has been months since the big patch that will change the balance and design of of many parts of LotV has been announced. Since then many more changes have been made every few weeks and it has not been easy to keep track of all of them. During the GSL test map tournament I've seen posts like "has the cyclone health changed as well?" more than once and often nobody really knows for sure. (Btw it has been changed from 120 to 180.)
So here are all the changes between the current live version and the balance test map in one place!
This is the source and I incorporated all the updates into the original changes and left out bug fixes. Tell me if I missed anything!
Terran
Cyclone
Anti-ground weapon heavily changed.
Damage changed to 3 (+2 vs armored) damage, attacks once per 0.1 seconds, range decreased from 5 to 4.
A cheap upgrade, called "Mag-field Launchers", will grant Cyclones +2 range has been added.
Weapon upgrade amount changed from 2 to 1 to account for the new damage value.
Changed weapon name to Tornado Blaster.
No Anti-air weapon.
Movement speed decreased from 4.72 to 4.13
Lock On can now target air units only. Range is unchanged, and the ability now deals 160 damage over 14 seconds.
Removed auto-cast for the Lock On ability.
Supply cost decreased from 4 to 3.
Increased health from 120 to 180.
No longer requires a tech lab to build. The Cyclone can now be built with a reactor.
The Cyclone auto-attack missile art is now smaller to avoid causing visual clutter. The missiles fired from the Lock-on ability are unchanged.
Removed the Cyclone Lock On Damage upgrade from the Factory Tech Lab.
Siege Tank
Sieged Siege Tank damage increased from 35 (+15 vs armored) to 40 (+30 vs armored).
Siege Tank health increased from 160 to 175.
In Siege mode, Crucio Shock Cannon weapon attack period changed from 2 to 2.14.
Sieged Siege Tanks can no longer be picked up by Medivacs.
Liberator
Remove the +light damage for the Anti-air attack.
Thor
Anti-air splash for the Javelin Missile Launchers radius increased from 0.5 to 0.6.
Thor High Impact Payload Mode: The Anti-air weapon, 250mm Punisher Cannons, will now be prioritized before the Anti-ground weapon, Thor's Hammer.
Banshee
Removed the Fusion Core requirement for the Hyperflight Rotors upgrade.
Banshee’s Research Hyperflight Rotors upgrade time increased to from 93 to 121
Viking
Ground mode auto-attack now deals +8 mechanical damage.
Battlecruiser
Energy bar removed.
Yamato Cannon and Tactical Jump no longer require energy to cast. Instead, each has a separate cooldown.
Yamato Cannon cooldown is 71 seconds.
Tactical Jump Cooldown is 71 seconds.
Removed the Behemoth Reactor upgrade (energy upgrade).
Raven
Auto Turret damage increased from 16 to 24.
The "Explosive Shrapnel Shells" upgrade was replaced with the "Recalibrated Explosives" upgrade.
"Recalibrated Explosives" upgrade:
Increases the Seeker Missile unit's tracking range by 50% (13 to 19.5).
Increases the Seeker Missile's damage by 30%.
Protoss
Tempest
Increase supply count from 4 to 6.
Anti-ground damage increased from 30 to 35, but no change to Anti-air damage.
Anti-ground weapon range from 15 to 8.
Disruption Blast:
Tempest charges up for 4 seconds, and then stuns enemy ground units and ground structures in the target area for 7 seconds.
Cast range is 10.
Area of effect radius is 1.95.
43 second cooldown.
Zealot
The "Research Charge" upgrade will now increase the Zealot's movement speed from 3.85 to 4.13.
Carrier
Removed the Release Interceptor ability.
Interceptor cost reduced from 25 minerals to 5 minerals, and autobuild is enabled from the start.
Void Ray
Void Ray's speed increased from 3.15 to 3.5.
Dark Templar
New Ability: Shadow Stride
Allows the Dark Templar to teleport a short distance.
Cooldown of 21 seconds.
Creates a visible smoke-effect upon being cast.
Research from Dark Shrine.
100/100 cost.
121 research time.
Warp Prism
Warp Prism's health maximum reduced from 100 to 80.
Adept
Adept Shade Vision reduced from 9 to 2.
Zerg
Swarm Host
Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6.
Locust Acid Spit weapon damage decreased from 12 to 10.
Hydralisk
Base attack range stays at 5.
“Evolve Muscular Augments was split into two separate upgrades:
"Evolve Muscular Augments" upgrade will increase the Hydralisk basemovement speed by 25%.
Cost 150/150
Research time: 71
"Evolve Grooved Spines" upgrade will increase the Hydralisk attack range by +2.
Cost 100/100
Research time: 71
Baneling
The Centrifugal Hooks upgrade now also provides a +10 health buff to Banelings.
Infestor
Has a collision radius while burrowed (but smaller than normal).
Can cast all abilities while burrowed.
Brood Lord
Range reduced from to 11 to 10.
Ultralisk
Base armor increased from 1 to 2.
Armor provided by Chitinous Plating upgrade reduced from 4 to 2.
Edit: Coincidentally Blizzard just released a Multiplayer Preview Video, so check out David Kim's thoughts behind these changes!
My pleasure! I remembered we had a thread like this for the changes from HotS to LotV and it was super helpful, so I thought having a smaller version for this patch would be cool.
Thanks so much it makes the game more understandable but it's a bit weird. Cyclones don't aa air but they can lock air? So they could attack air without locking before? What is the difference between auto lock and no auto lock, I have played a few games with cyclone pre patch and I still don't get how they work, such a weird unit.
On November 14 2016 23:48 Poopi wrote: Thanks so much it makes the game more understandable but it's a bit weird. Cyclones don't aa air but they can lock air? So they could attack air without locking before? What is the difference between auto lock and no auto lock, I have played a few games with cyclone pre patch and I still don't get how they work, such a weird unit.
Auto lock = lock-on is casted on the first target that gets in range No auto lock = you need to use the hotkey and target something
Cyclones after the patch will have a regular anti-ground attack (pew pew pew hundreds of missiles) and a very weak version of lock-on (it does like 160 damage over 14 seconds so 1 cyclone can't even kill an overlord) that you need to use manually and that only works on air units.
Before the patch cyclones automatically lock-on to targets (unless you disable the automatic use of the ability) both on the ground and in the air. But they also have a basic attack (that many people probably don't see very often because for all intents and purposes lock-on is the main use of the cyclone on the current patch) against both ground and air targets that they only use when lock-on is on cooldown.
On November 14 2016 23:20 SlammerSC2 wrote: Doesent Immortals still hardcounter the fuck out of Siegetanks in testmod? sorry for the language
Mech is still not viable in any matchup except if you by mech means factory units supported by air units. If by mech you mean mass viking/raven/liberator after having enough tanks to secure your third, then mech is viable in TvT.
In TvP immortals are more of a soft counter. The problem here is phoenix openers hard countering mech openers, adepts shading straight into your tanks lines and disruptors making it really awkard trying to engage the Protoss army. Add warp prisms, blink stalkers, carrrier with almost free interceptors on top of that and I doubt any player will use mech in TvP if they want to win.
In TvZ Hydras are really strong against mech. And Vipers are still the strongest hardcounter to mech in the entire game, if Vipers were toned down then maybe mech would be somewhat viable in TvZ.
So it is a good thing that flying tanks were removed. But mech still does not work (except for maybe in TvT).
Considering the most effective composition currently used in ZvP, and looking at the changes for each race, i don't see how protoss isn't gonna get absolutely destroyed by this patch in the matchup.
For TvP and TvZ no clue how this will look though, so many big changes. Blink DT's seems completly pointless and i liked tankivacs, but i'm glad we finally see that 6 supply tempest, better carrier and BC, and the ultra nerf done right.
So, ultra nerf is good, I guess, since terran players seem to die a little on the inside when they enter the field.
Tankivac change is boring. It could be frustrating as a zerg sometimes to deal with tankivacs, but it does look cool and gives a nice feel to the bio army. Somehow I think the stationary tank is a bit of a nerf to the tank.
Fungal from BURROWED?? Surely you jest, sirs and madams??!1++1 Feels like it will lead to arbitrarily decided matches. Or that terran will play mech always onwards? Or Jesus, haha, mind control from burrowed. "Ooh was that your own disruptor that shot you in the face?"
-Light dam on libs feels good as a zerg. Not too bad if they don't go through with it tho.
The cyclone I don't even understand. I can't picture what kind of unit it will be from the delta description. Eh.
Blink DTs?? How do they even come up with this? Can they blink to high ground? Potential for a super cute build in PvT or something maybe?
On November 15 2016 01:26 ArtyK wrote: Considering the most effective composition currently used in ZvP, and looking at the changes for each race, i don't see how protoss isn't gonna get absolutely destroyed by this patch in the matchup.
you mass carriers while unable to expand since interceptors are free and then amove after 30min
On November 15 2016 01:26 ArtyK wrote: Considering the most effective composition currently used in ZvP, and looking at the changes for each race, i don't see how protoss isn't gonna get absolutely destroyed by this patch in the matchup.
you mass carriers while unable to expand since interceptors are free and then amove after 30min
Actually, what would be really awesome is a tooltip that calculates figures that affect HP of units more transparent. Currently we have damage and attackspeed for each attack a unit has. Wouldn't it be much more informative if the information was the attack (or heal) is xx per second.
Then its still not the trouth, because that figure is still affected by armor and depends on the flag the receiving unit has....
On November 15 2016 01:26 ArtyK wrote: Considering the most effective composition currently used in ZvP, and looking at the changes for each race, i don't see how protoss isn't gonna get absolutely destroyed by this patch in the matchup.
the new hydralisk uppgrade is absolutely ridiculous, they MUST realize zerg is too overpowered lategame, i am calling it right now this will be reverted within one month of the live release, zerg is allready too strong against protoss but giving zerg basic units siege range when lurkers are not yet discovered (avilo style) this is going to explode in their faces
you have to look at the viper which you can give to any race and it would deny engagements as anytime you attack you just get blinding clouded, we can accept stronger basic units if it were not for the massive benefit hive gives zerg on top of having the strongest fastest replaceable army in the game...
the viper is no issue for zvz or zvt bio, but for zvp and zvt mech its game breaking and heavily undiscovered but if you look at how pig or miniraser uses it the unit is absolutely rigged
the combination of abduct + neural bugs out interceptors causing the enemy to kill his own interceptors its absurd, try 6 infestors vs 12 carriers and NP the first 6 carriers
THE 6 INFESTORS WIN and you can cast while burrowed!!!
now add an army that costs the same as 12 carriers and abduct the carriers into yours before NP'it, the protoss CAN NOT ESCAPE if he runs you just chase him down, and he CAN NOT attack as you simply neural him head on, so long as you use overlords with your army the protoss cant focus your infestors, but if they are burrowed he physically cant, he cant even see them without a detector...
abduct from vipers cancel disruptor shots which is bugged, they still cancel yamatos and any chargeup weapon including snipe and nukes, it is ridiculous but since you never see anything but straight bio nobody notices
this is going to be horrible for everyone, z will never get any macrogames because t/p will be allinning as hard as they can every single game terrified of what happens if game goes to late
I would like to see Protoss get some more stuff haha (I am a Terran myself) I think it would be interesting to see when Sentry's attack a target whatever they're locked on would be slowed for like half the % of concussive shells maybe it is a bad suggestion I am not too sure I think it would be interesting, I also can't help but think of the sentry throwing a chain whenever I see it attack it literally looks like a tractor beam lol..
I guess we should change tactics. Lets just ignore this stupid shit and stop posting. May be then they will stop implementing idiotic changes. Or you may joke about ignoring me instead.
What's wrong with giving Sentry's a slow? I think it would be useful for drop defence and liberator harassment vs T and vs oracles as well cause if something boosted in and the Sentry targeted it, the overcharge from a pylon would be able to deal with it more effectively
So BL and Ultra nerf ? I really don't understand both of them nerfs. I hear a lot of whineing from terran folks about ultra when they stick to mass marine play. But for what reason the BL range is reduced ?
I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how.
On November 15 2016 04:19 derpistole wrote: So BL and Ultra nerf ? I really don't understand both of them nerfs. I hear a lot of whineing from terran folks about ultra when they stick to mass marine play. But for what reason the BL range is reduced ?
Because Thors weren't able to hit Broodlords since their AA is 10 I believe and the BLord attack was 11 the broodlings would block the thors from doing their job
On November 15 2016 04:19 DinoMight wrote: I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how.
Aren't you afraid of a ghost? We just had the GSL balance test map tournament and not even one single TvP was mech. Nobody even bother trying to play mech in TvP, yet you think it might be too strong.
Phoenix openings are probably very good vs mech because now cyclones can't kill any air units. Disruptors are probably quite good as well, considering how slow every mech units is and that tanks can't be put in medivacs anymore.
On November 15 2016 04:19 DinoMight wrote: I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how.
I would assume Mass Immortal Chargelot and Voidray, Its hard for mech to fight vs Immortals none of units really do good against them so I would assume that is your best bet (The new siegetanks do a lot of friendlyfire so Chargelots will just just make the Terran murder themselves)
I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time.
On November 15 2016 04:09 Ryu3600 wrote: What's wrong with giving Sentry's a slow? I think it would be useful for drop defence and liberator harassment vs T and vs oracles as well cause if something boosted in and the Sentry targeted it, the overcharge from a pylon would be able to deal with it more effectively
I think crowd-control spells in general can get very controversial after all the debate on how anti-micro Force Field, Fungal Growth, and Time War were in the past. Concussive Shells and Broodlord's Broodlings also were similarly controversial to a smaller degree.
The new Tempest spell risks falling into the same controversy, but it seems to still have some counter-play with the long charge-up time.
On November 15 2016 04:19 DinoMight wrote: I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how.
Hots composition of chargelot archon immortal did well and +5 dmg to archon chrgelot and 20 damage to immortal isn't gonna change it much, especially since protoss has faster econ than terran with warp prism harass options
On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time.
Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there.
On November 14 2016 23:48 Poopi wrote: Thanks so much it makes the game more understandable but it's a bit weird. Cyclones don't aa air but they can lock air? So they could attack air without locking before? What is the difference between auto lock and no auto lock, I have played a few games with cyclone pre patch and I still don't get how they work, such a weird unit.
Auto lock = lock-on is casted on the first target that gets in range No auto lock = you need to use the hotkey and target something
Cyclones after the patch will have a regular anti-ground attack (pew pew pew hundreds of missiles) and a very weak version of lock-on (it does like 160 damage over 14 seconds so 1 cyclone can't even kill an overlord) that you need to use manually and that only works on air units.
Before the patch cyclones automatically lock-on to targets (unless you disable the automatic use of the ability) both on the ground and in the air. But they also have a basic attack (that many people probably don't see very often because for all intents and purposes lock-on is the main use of the cyclone on the current patch) against both ground and air targets that they only use when lock-on is on cooldown.
Yeah but when I played it I had no idea if manually casting was faster or if the only advantage was to select the target in case there are multiple ones. The other attack seemed quite shit. Since lock on is nerfed but normal atk buffed against ground, the idea is to mass them and a click? They changed the Thor yet again :x, it's getting complicated trying to follow all the changes.
On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time.
Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there.
Mutalisks will definitely return as a staple Lair unit, and I expect the Hydra buffs will push them into being decent against bio.
The main issue with ZvX midgame is that ling/bane/muta and ling/bane/infestor are the only compositions with any meaningful synergy. All roach variants are very clunky and don't scale into the lategame.
i would love to see the Thor designed to be a counter for heavy hitting ground units like immortal or ultras, and letting air deal with air, would make more sense to me.
Inestor change ok, Adept change mkay - the rest oh dear.. saying anything will get me banned but its all complete bullsh*t and just proves again that a certain game dev has very little clue on how to do an rts.. very sad.. very, very sad
On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time.
Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there.
Mutalisks will definitely return as a staple Lair unit, and I expect the Hydra buffs will push them into being decent against bio.
The main issue with ZvX midgame is that ling/bane/muta and ling/bane/infestor are the only compositions with any meaningful synergy. All roach variants are very clunky and don't scale into the lategame.
ling/bane/hydra seems super cool now, maybe we might even see some lurkers, tankivacs shut them down, but vs normal siege tanks you can unburrow and retreat, BW style
On November 15 2016 04:19 DinoMight wrote: I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how.
Aren't you afraid of a ghost? We just had the GSL balance test map tournament and not even one single TvP was mech. Nobody even bother trying to play mech in TvP, yet you think it might be too strong.
Phoenix openings are probably very good vs mech because now cyclones can't kill any air units. Disruptors are probably quite good as well, considering how slow every mech units is and that tanks can't be put in medivacs anymore.
Oh, I didn't watch it. That's why I was asking.
I'm sure it will take a little time for the game to get figured out. All they've done is buff mech but they haven't changed bio. Koreans typically are more concerned with winning than trying new things when they play in tournaments.
On November 15 2016 05:38 ivancype wrote: i would love to see the Thor designed to be a counter for heavy hitting ground units like immortal or ultras, and letting air deal with air, would make more sense to me.
Letting air deal with air is very uninteresting in SC2 and generally has lead to some of the most boring games imaginable.
Don't get me wrong, I like air units, but SC2's are poorly designed.
Let me explain.
Air units should, in general, be designed around the axiom of being fast, maneuverable but short-range and fragile. This is due to the fact that air units can bypass terrain, entrenchments and armies, they have a very strong tactical advantage and must have a suitable weakness.
The most fun and successful such units in SC2 have been phoenixes and mutalisks, in BW other good examples were wraiths, scouts and corsairs.
Just think back to the epic wraith vs muta/scourge or muta vs muta fights from BW, or the dance between phoenixes and mutalisks, those units are so fast and responsive that the victor is usually determined by who can control his units better.
When air units can reach such a point that they can fight toe to toe with ground units that delicate axiom is broken and air units become the go to end-game.
In SC2 this has resulted in BL/Viper armies, Air-Toss and Sky Terran, which are extremely boring compositions to watch, play and play against. These armies are boring because they are slow, unresponsive and unresponsive, thus they are not suitable for snap micro like you have with phoenixes or mutas and thus are best used in a a-move.
It is thus paramount that ground units at all times hold the advantage in a head to head fight so as to force the air army to coax the most out of its mobility advantage.
The problem now is that we have many capital ship type units in the game that, after a certain critical mass, can not only fight toe to toe with their ground counters, but can even beat them, this should just not happen.
The reason why BW carrier was so beloved and such a successful capital ship is because it wasn't designed like a SC2 capital ship, it was designed more like mutalisks.
Carriers didn't have speed but they had ranged and they shined in situations where they could abuse that range coupled with terrain. Carriers were really bad against mass Goliaths if caught out and could be easily sniped.
I hope that after this patch the community can finally agree upon this fact and we can push for a general rework of air units in SC2.
On November 15 2016 06:09 Destructicon wrote: The reason why BW carrier was so beloved and such a successful capital ship is because it wasn't designed like a SC2 capital ship, it was designed more like mutalisks.
Huh?? The carrier is almost exactly the same thing it was in BW.
But it's such a late game unit that the circumstances around its construction are totally different. The game state for Carriers to be produced need to favor the Protoss considerably in SC2.
thanks for adding the DK interview video for additional insight. With all the C&C guys now @ Blizz i'm sure that "Mech" is really the GDI fantasy squad for them.
that ATVI jacket DK has on rules! i was thinking he should have a graph underneath the logo indicating ATVI's stock price the past 7 years to make us all realize how wonderful ATVI is and always has been
Protoss changes completely destroys team games. DTs and Carriers already were pain in the ass and now they get buffed more. It is pity of how developers don't care about it.
On November 15 2016 07:05 saltis wrote: Protoss changes completely destroys team games. DTs and Carriers already were pain in the ass and now they get buffed more. It is pity of how developers don't care about it.
Games worth thousands of dollars are played in 1v1, not team games, end of story
What I don't like is -disclaimer : I played 1 game in the testing ladder, in which I proceeded to blink DTs rush- that from what I understand, P will have to rely heavily on getting an invincible air armada now (opening phoenix / VRs and then transitioning to buffed carriers). And I don't think that's a good way to make P gameplay evolve : it's just another kind of turtle into a-move deathball. Not that that would truly bother me, this is the style I'm the best with after all, but this won't contribute to making P more beloved.
On November 15 2016 04:34 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think I would've preferred reverting the attack upgrades nerf to ITs instead of this all-or-nothing burrow change. Infestors suffered from lacking enough total utility to be reliable in the midgame, not being so vulnerable that they need to be underground all the time.
Zerg midgame in general for ZvT can be described that way. Having infested terrans be useful would be nice. But it doesn't really stop there.
Mutalisks will definitely return as a staple Lair unit, and I expect the Hydra buffs will push them into being decent against bio.
The main issue with ZvX midgame is that ling/bane/muta and ling/bane/infestor are the only compositions with any meaningful synergy. All roach variants are very clunky and don't scale into the lategame.
I like you. I was going to write that but decided I'd rather play a match.
I crushed it with good mid game bile harass on mineral lines from ledges. I don't like roach ravager but I feel like I can control the tempo. Terran isn't free to just mass econ or drop everywhere and anywhere like ling bane low tech ultra rushing.
I cannot wait for libs to loose some luster and having mutas be a good investment again.
On November 15 2016 06:23 MiCroLiFe wrote: this means that Bio, is totally useless now. thanks for lettin us play mmm for 6 years and suddnely make it impossible to play.
I have been playing since beta and I can tell you with authority that every single time Terran has gotten a balance change they have screamed this.
Why did they remove the medivac tank interaction completely? Why not make sieged tanks able to be picked up and become unsieged in the medivac? You could still use the pickup defensively but not drop the sieged tanks any more.
Tanks changes are great, Liberator change is great, Cyclone change is the wrong direction for the unit imo mech needed fast response to air and Thors no matter how hard they hit are very slow but they seem like they will be way better against Protoss.
New Hydralisks are amazing, I've played with them in the test map, the unit feels strong for once. Haven't tried the Infestor stuff out yet admittedly though. Ultralisks armor nerf was long overdue even as a Zerg player they are just OP vs bio
Protoss changes feel meh, I feel like Stalkers should have been buffed and Immortals nerfed, coupled with an Oracle redesign into a no economy damage utility unit, but whatever, DT's being more useful should be cool but it's just yet again buffing Protoss economy harassment which they already have a plethora of powerful worker killing units.
On November 15 2016 07:55 Beelzebub1 wrote: Tanks changes are great, Liberator change is great, Cyclone change is the wrong direction for the unit imo mech needed fast response to air and Thors no matter how hard they hit are very slow but they seem like they will be way better against Protoss.
New Hydralisks are amazing, I've played with them in the test map, the unit feels strong for once. Haven't tried the Infestor stuff out yet admittedly though. Ultralisks armor nerf was long overdue even as a Zerg player they are just OP vs bio
Protoss changes feel meh, I feel like Stalkers should have been buffed and Immortals nerfed, coupled with an Oracle redesign into a no economy damage utility unit, but whatever, DT's being more useful should be cool but it's just yet again buffing Protoss economy harassment which they already have a plethora of powerful worker killing units.
Let's not forget the cheeseray buff and the adept now relying on a near-complete gamble as an harass tool, while the tempest got a 7 seconds stun.
Played the test map a little and it's horrible. Infestors makes most move outs against zerg a gamble (you don't have scans for the whole map), cyclones are so bad at AA that TvT devolves into an idiotic "take a third then mass vikings ravens and liberators", and mech is still crap against protoss because disruptors still outrange tanks and because phenixes openers don't allow mech to move out unit you have 3 thors.
I don't think they're getting it right with the tempest. Add an ability to that unit doesnt seems very constructive to the game. Why stun ? Why 7 seconds ??? It is any different from the oracle's trap ?
With the cyclone's change, it with hurt alot of the unit's micro potential but make the unit generally stronger.
In the video, DK also said Thor's going to be one of the core Anti-air for terran. The problem is, it doesnt matter how hard you buff its damage or splash, a unit like thor is forever too slow to catch up with moving flying target, not to mention that the thor doesnt even deal that much damage.
On November 15 2016 08:42 Levyathan wrote: I don't think they're getting it right with the tempest. Add an ability to that unit doesnt seems very constructive to the game. Why stun ? Why 7 seconds ??? It is any different from the oracle's trap ?
With the cyclone's change, it with hurt alot of the unit's micro potential but make the unit generally stronger.
In the video, DK also said Thor's going to be one of the core Anti-air for terran. The problem is, it doesnt matter how hard you buff its damage or splash, a unit like thor is forever too slow to catch up with moving flying target, not to mention that the thor doesnt even deal that much damage.
Actually the thor does a decent job at fighting nerf ranged tempests and BLs. It's atrocious against liberators, and gets extremely hard countered by vipers.
But the main weakness is that against opponents using air techpath, the thor being the core mech AA unit means that you won't ever be able to move out unless you have a decent amount of thors. You can't match the count of vikings an opponent that goes straight into air builds. You can't build enough vikings or cyclones to counter a mass phenixes strategy. So you have to stay at home and turtle up.
nice thread, I had been wondering what all the changes suggested were, it's been awhile.
but yea this thread just made me feel a bit nostalgic for the LotV beta, what if the burrowed moving banelings and burrow charge ultras still existed, would be crazy
also, how much energy did warp cost for BCs? having a 71 second cool down now means no player will be using teleport aggressively, not that they really did before
There are a handful of changes I really don't like in this patch. I think zerg will end up being very weak with these changes. However, I think the most unnecessary changes are the hyperflight upgrade and DT blink. Honestly, I don't even think hyperflight should exist. And DT blink?... I think that goes without saying. With all that being said, I think this patch does generally shift gameplay in the right direction. Giving all races greater diversity, even if, at the moment, the diversity doesn't benefit the races equally.
On November 15 2016 17:02 TentatvePnda wrote: I think zerg will end up being very weak with these changes
Like, how do you even remotely jump to that conclusion? 40 hp banelings? (FFS) 7 range hydras? (FFS) Already being core units in pvz they gonna give hell to protoss. All this with ravager remaining unarmored. And adepts nerfed... I, personally, don't give a shit about adepts cause i dont rely on them much in any mu, but what the f? Shade was their core concept and now they just strip their harassment and scouting potential off completely. Not damage output, not timings/allin potential but harassment and scouting. WHY? Swarmhosts... a stupid gimmick unit becoming almost free for insane harrasment potential it has on certain maps. REMOVE IT FFS. Dont even get me started on toss air buffs. I DON'T WANT TO RELY ON AIR UNITS in any mu. This is BORING. Blink DTs? I promise you will never see them in play. 2 min research for a completely worthless ability. Noone use them w/o warprism anywayz. And prism has an in-built blink for any unit ok? Where are the actual zerg nerfs? BL range - are you fcking kidding me? Noone will ever notice. Ultra nerf is hardly even a nerf.
Wait they aren't making ravagers armored? Holy shit mech will never be a thing in TvZ with those things around (and vipers in the lategame).
If 7 range hydras can be microed to trade favorably against adepts, then protoss doesn't stand a chance. That's their core unit, which is supposed to be an anti light specialist and can't shoot up.
So... How are you gonna hold any early baneling-hydra 3-base allins ("early aggression") without losing your 3rd as protoss? This actually eliminates any potential for early economic play for protoss in pvz. Removing the release interceptors ability from carriers is probably something I can live with, but I don't really understand the point of adding this shadow stride ability (another active ability so it feels like now there are not enough hotkeys on the keyboard to be able to cast them all) to dt's except from some early allins that protoss players will be experimenting with shortly after the patch is released. What I mean by that is that protoss will not receive any new "real" harassment options vs. terran as this dt play will get countered so hard by a default turret-mine placement in all expansions that terran is taking (there is actually a considerable difference between harassing with medivacs that you can send to a certain location with pre-selected drop command so that you can concentrate on manouvering your main army force and harassing with expensive units like a dt or oracle that can die to a single shot from a burrowed mine...). This mech play in pvt, for what I can tell at least based on what I'm seeing in these changes, will actually mean carnage for protoss since the new tank-hellbat-cyclone composition decimates any gate protoss force with vikings owning any colossi, carriers, and tempests (yeah, there is no interceptor release potential to hit and run a mech force being halfway to their destination).And to think that it's gonna happen on maps like King Sejong Station or Galactic Process with so many chokes and upper-ground siege locations
On November 15 2016 18:36 Salteador Neo wrote: Wait they aren't making ravagers armored? Holy shit mech will never be a thing in TvZ with those things around (and vipers in the lategame).
Why would you assume it was supposed to be a thing? Because blizzard said so? If you look at the changes it becomes clear that mech isn't really THAT buffed as it seemed at the start. Cyclone changes are pretty meh (buffed "vs armored" only), tanks traded their insane mobility for damage vs...... armored units, that zerg..... dont need to build to counter mech. So under the disguise of "mechin it happen" they just straight up BUFFED zerg to the skies. NICE ONE BLIZZARD. I won't be surprised if that wasn't their intention. Cause they actually have no fcking idea what they are doing. At all.
On November 15 2016 18:42 prabuty wrote: So... How are you gonna hold any early baneling-hydra 3-base allins ("early aggression") without losing your 3rd as protoss? This actually eliminates any potential for early economic play for protoss in pvz. Removing the release interceptors ability from carriers is probably something I can live with, but I don't really understand the point of adding this shadow stride ability (another active ability so it feels like now there are not enough hotkeys on the keyboard to be able to cast them all) to dt's except from some early allins that protoss players will be experimenting with shortly after the patch is released. What I mean by that is that protoss will not receive any new "real" harassment options vs. terran as this dt play will get countered so hard by a default turret-mine placement in all expansions that terran is taking (there is actually a considerable difference between harassing with medivacs that you can send to a certain location with pre-selected drop command so that you can concentrate on manouvering your main army force and harassing with expensive units like a dt or oracle that can die to a single shot from a burrowed mine...). This mech play in pvt, for what I can tell at least based on what I'm seeing in these changes, will actually mean carnage for protoss since the new tank-hellbat-cyclone composition decimates any gate protoss force with vikings owning any colossi, carriers, and tempests (yeah, there is no interceptor release potential to hit and run a mech force being halfway to their destination).And to think that it's gonna happen on maps like King Sejong Station or Galactic Process with so many chokes and upper-ground siege locations
KSS and Gal will both be phased out by the time the change hits.
"Early" and "At the bare minimum 7 minutes into the game" don't check out.
On November 15 2016 04:19 DinoMight wrote: I have to preface this with "I haven't played it yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong" ... but....
Terran mech looks REALLY powerful now. The lack of an answer to Stalkers (w/blink) in the early game was really Mech's traditional weakness. But now that this has been addressed and presumably Terrans can build a mech composition without being behind economically - what units does Protoss build to counter mass Siege Tank + Liberator / Vikings?
Until mass Carriers + Storm + Tempest etc. it looks ridiculously difficult.
EDIT - this is a question. So when I say how does, I'm not saying "it's impossible." I'm asking how.
Aren't you afraid of a ghost? We just had the GSL balance test map tournament and not even one single TvP was mech. Nobody even bother trying to play mech in TvP, yet you think it might be too strong.
Phoenix openings are probably very good vs mech because now cyclones can't kill any air units. Disruptors are probably quite good as well, considering how slow every mech units is and that tanks can't be put in medivacs anymore.
Oh, I didn't watch it. That's why I was asking.
I'm sure it will take a little time for the game to get figured out. All they've done is buff mech but they haven't changed bio. Koreans typically are more concerned with winning than trying new things when they play in tournaments.
Here's what happened in the GSL tournament:
- cyclone cheese, lots of it - voidray busts, many of them - Terran composition is bio/cyclone in early & midgame, then transitions into bio/mine/liberator (or whatever else you need to deal with the Protoss comp)
Granted, this will need more time to be figured out in its entirety. It always takes time before people figure out mech. On the current patch we're at a point where Koreans have mech figured out in two match-ups (although it hugely depends on the maps), it took almost a year for us to reach this point and the entire time everyone was convinced ground mech was bad.
On November 15 2016 18:42 prabuty wrote: So... How are you gonna hold any early baneling-hydra 3-base allins ("early aggression") without losing your 3rd as protoss? This actually eliminates any potential for early economic play for protoss in pvz. Removing the release interceptors ability from carriers is probably something I can live with, but I don't really understand the point of adding this shadow stride ability (another active ability so it feels like now there are not enough hotkeys on the keyboard to be able to cast them all) to dt's except from some early allins that protoss players will be experimenting with shortly after the patch is released. What I mean by that is that protoss will not receive any new "real" harassment options vs. terran as this dt play will get countered so hard by a default turret-mine placement in all expansions that terran is taking (there is actually a considerable difference between harassing with medivacs that you can send to a certain location with pre-selected drop command so that you can concentrate on manouvering your main army force and harassing with expensive units like a dt or oracle that can die to a single shot from a burrowed mine...). This mech play in pvt, for what I can tell at least based on what I'm seeing in these changes, will actually mean carnage for protoss since the new tank-hellbat-cyclone composition decimates any gate protoss force with vikings owning any colossi, carriers, and tempests (yeah, there is no interceptor release potential to hit and run a mech force being halfway to their destination).And to think that it's gonna happen on maps like King Sejong Station or Galactic Process with so many chokes and upper-ground siege locations
KSS and Gal will both be phased out by the time the change hits.
"Early" and "At the bare minimum 7 minutes into the game" don't check out.
Well, to be more specific by saying "early" I meant that zerg would be able to take down protoss 3rd so easily with taking only like 3 gases and having full mineral saturation in his main and natural with using a hatchery in his 3rd for spamming zerglings and relying solely on the new strength of banelings and +2 hydras. I'm making this assumption based on the current regular expansion timings in pvz with any further delay of protoss 3rd benefiting only zerg.
By mentioning maps like KSS and Gal I wanted to stress out the fact that such map architectures extremely favor terran over as could be seen in the last Dark-Byun finals, for example.
Im curious since I havent seen any match with this patch...will there still be the good old Bio vs ling/bane interaction or how do protosses now vs a ling/bane/ravager composition? I would assume banes killing more now so forcing players to change playstyle. Also the smaller skirmishes in TvZ (drops/runbys) should be more dominated by banes, right?
On November 15 2016 08:42 Levyathan wrote: I don't think they're getting it right with the tempest. Add an ability to that unit doesnt seems very constructive to the game. Why stun ?
They think TvP mech will be a thing and Protoss will need more help breaking siege lines (whether this is accurate or not is a whole other story).
On November 15 2016 08:42 Levyathan wrote: Why 7 seconds ???
Any more is probably too strong while any less is probably too inconsequential
On November 15 2016 08:42 Levyathan wrote: It is any different from the oracle's trap ?
You can attack and kill units stunned by the tempest but not units trapped by the oracle.
On November 15 2016 19:36 loko822 wrote: Im curious since I havent seen any match with this patch...will there still be the good old Bio vs ling/bane interaction or how do protosses now vs a ling/bane/ravager composition? I would assume banes killing more now so forcing players to change playstyle. Also the smaller skirmishes in TvZ (drops/runbys) should be more dominated by banes, right?
The interactions still exist. ByuN-style focus firing down speed banes is less efficient, but splitting and widow mines still seem to work out pretty well. With the liberator nerf mutas could also make a comeback and shift compositions a bit. You're right though that the smaller skirmishes more often get decided by banes. As for ravager/ling/bane, there was a game of that in the GSL test tournament, Zest vs ByuL, where ByuL went for that composition and Zest destroyed him with stalker/sentry/immortal/archon and perfect force fields.
Honestly, I've been a playing a bit and I don't understand the baneling buff at all, just a random change out of nowhere tbh. If ByuN focus firing banelings is the reason for this, it's a bit weird imo.
Then there is Blink DTs, a change that will do nothing on higher level, apart from a DT or two being saved sometimes. In lower leagues on the other hand, this will make the games even more frustrating and drive new players insane.
Those two and the random Viking change is something I don't get, but none of them will make a huge impact I think.
On November 15 2016 18:42 prabuty wrote: So... How are you gonna hold any early baneling-hydra 3-base allins ("early aggression") without losing your 3rd as protoss? This actually eliminates any potential for early economic play for protoss in pvz. Removing the release interceptors ability from carriers is probably something I can live with, but I don't really understand the point of adding this shadow stride ability (another active ability so it feels like now there are not enough hotkeys on the keyboard to be able to cast them all) to dt's except from some early allins that protoss players will be experimenting with shortly after the patch is released. What I mean by that is that protoss will not receive any new "real" harassment options vs. terran as this dt play will get countered so hard by a default turret-mine placement in all expansions that terran is taking (there is actually a considerable difference between harassing with medivacs that you can send to a certain location with pre-selected drop command so that you can concentrate on manouvering your main army force and harassing with expensive units like a dt or oracle that can die to a single shot from a burrowed mine...). This mech play in pvt, for what I can tell at least based on what I'm seeing in these changes, will actually mean carnage for protoss since the new tank-hellbat-cyclone composition decimates any gate protoss force with vikings owning any colossi, carriers, and tempests (yeah, there is no interceptor release potential to hit and run a mech force being halfway to their destination).And to think that it's gonna happen on maps like King Sejong Station or Galactic Process with so many chokes and upper-ground siege locations
KSS and Gal will both be phased out by the time the change hits.
"Early" and "At the bare minimum 7 minutes into the game" don't check out.
Well, to be more specific by saying "early" I meant that zerg would be able to take down protoss 3rd so easily with taking only like 3 gases and having full mineral saturation in his main and natural with using a hatchery in his 3rd for spamming zerglings and relying solely on the new strength of banelings and +2 hydras. I'm making this assumption based on the current regular expansion timings in pvz with any further delay of protoss 3rd benefiting only zerg.
By mentioning maps like KSS and Gal I wanted to stress out the fact that such map architectures extremely favor terran over as could be seen in the last Dark-Byun finals, for example.
Three gasses, 3 base saturation, a fast lair, two back to back upgrades plus the hydra den, and we have to hope that Protoss doesn't do any sort of pressure since all we have to spare are mineral units that suck ass against adepts.
Seriously lets break this down. Lair - Minerals 150 (450) Gas 100 Game Speed 57 Hydralisk Den - Minerals 100 Gas 100 Game Speed 29 Muscular Augments - Minerals 150 Gas 150 Game Speed 71 Grooved Spines - Minerals 100 Gas 100 Game Speed 71
So 228 seconds / 3:48 minutes. 500 minerals. 450 gas. Just for the tech alone. If Zerg took a fast lair at 4:00 then we're looking at 7:48 if they execute it perfectly. At 8 minutes I expect Protoss to have close to full saturation on their third. I know people are panicking over zerg getting a unit that isn't flaming shit but this isn't going to come at 4 minutes or 5 minutes or even 7 minutes. It's coming when both players will have 3 base saturation and the late game tools to deal with mid game pressure.
Tbh pretty much every unit can fight wreck stalkers now. Cyclones, tanks, vikings, ravens, swarmhosts, hydras... all get sweet buffs. Hell even banes now take one more shot to kill, and infestors cast while burrowed. Sad stalker fanclub.
On November 15 2016 18:42 prabuty wrote: So... How are you gonna hold any early baneling-hydra 3-base allins ("early aggression") without losing your 3rd as protoss? This actually eliminates any potential for early economic play for protoss in pvz. Removing the release interceptors ability from carriers is probably something I can live with, but I don't really understand the point of adding this shadow stride ability (another active ability so it feels like now there are not enough hotkeys on the keyboard to be able to cast them all) to dt's except from some early allins that protoss players will be experimenting with shortly after the patch is released. What I mean by that is that protoss will not receive any new "real" harassment options vs. terran as this dt play will get countered so hard by a default turret-mine placement in all expansions that terran is taking (there is actually a considerable difference between harassing with medivacs that you can send to a certain location with pre-selected drop command so that you can concentrate on manouvering your main army force and harassing with expensive units like a dt or oracle that can die to a single shot from a burrowed mine...). This mech play in pvt, for what I can tell at least based on what I'm seeing in these changes, will actually mean carnage for protoss since the new tank-hellbat-cyclone composition decimates any gate protoss force with vikings owning any colossi, carriers, and tempests (yeah, there is no interceptor release potential to hit and run a mech force being halfway to their destination).And to think that it's gonna happen on maps like King Sejong Station or Galactic Process with so many chokes and upper-ground siege locations
KSS and Gal will both be phased out by the time the change hits.
"Early" and "At the bare minimum 7 minutes into the game" don't check out.
Well, to be more specific by saying "early" I meant that zerg would be able to take down protoss 3rd so easily with taking only like 3 gases and having full mineral saturation in his main and natural with using a hatchery in his 3rd for spamming zerglings and relying solely on the new strength of banelings and +2 hydras. I'm making this assumption based on the current regular expansion timings in pvz with any further delay of protoss 3rd benefiting only zerg.
By mentioning maps like KSS and Gal I wanted to stress out the fact that such map architectures extremely favor terran over as could be seen in the last Dark-Byun finals, for example.
Three gasses, 3 base saturation, a fast lair, two back to back upgrades plus the hydra den, and we have to hope that Protoss doesn't do any sort of pressure since all we have to spare are mineral units that suck ass against adepts.
Seriously lets break this down. Lair - Minerals 150 (450) Gas 100 Game Speed 57 Hydralisk Den - Minerals 100 Gas 100 Game Speed 29 Muscular Augments - Minerals 150 Gas 150 Game Speed 71 Grooved Spines - Minerals 100 Gas 100 Game Speed 71
So 228 seconds / 3:48 minutes. 500 minerals. 450 gas. Just for the tech alone. If Zerg took a fast lair at 4:00 then we're looking at 7:48 if they execute it perfectly. At 8 minutes I expect Protoss to have close to full saturation on their third. I know people are panicking over zerg getting a unit that isn't flaming shit but this isn't going to come at 4 minutes or 5 minutes or even 7 minutes. It's coming when both players will have 3 base saturation and the late game tools to deal with mid game pressure.
Again, I'm talking here specifically about ~3-gas, 2-base mineral saturation with 3rd-being-used-as-a macro-hatch timings with rush distances comparable to KSS or Frozen Temple. Another thing here is that you don't need muscular augments (can always be optionally researched after +2 is finished) for your hydras to execute this particular deadly attack (you need only like 8-10 +2 hydras to provide uncontested ranged dmg with everything else being sent as reinforcements (zerglings, banelings) to accompany the hydras). At this point protoss used to defend with sentry-stalkers and possibly some pylon overcharges, but now this early gate defensive force will be decimated way too quickly for protoss being able to add some splash to his defense, which will automatically mean protoss having to take his 3rd later compared with what it is now. I'm not opposing the idea of zerg having +2 hydras as its core unit later on in the game to fight things like mech but as of now it seems like too much too quickly.
On November 15 2016 05:38 ivancype wrote: i would love to see the Thor designed to be a counter for heavy hitting ground units like immortal or ultras, and letting air deal with air, would make more sense to me.
Letting air deal with air is very uninteresting in SC2 and generally has lead to some of the most boring games imaginable.
Don't get me wrong, I like air units, but SC2's are poorly designed.
Let me explain.
Air units should, in general, be designed around the axiom of being fast, maneuverable but short-range and fragile. This is due to the fact that air units can bypass terrain, entrenchments and armies, they have a very strong tactical advantage and must have a suitable weakness.
The most fun and successful such units in SC2 have been phoenixes and mutalisks, in BW other good examples were wraiths, scouts and corsairs.
Just think back to the epic wraith vs muta/scourge or muta vs muta fights from BW, or the dance between phoenixes and mutalisks, those units are so fast and responsive that the victor is usually determined by who can control his units better.
When air units can reach such a point that they can fight toe to toe with ground units that delicate axiom is broken and air units become the go to end-game.
In SC2 this has resulted in BL/Viper armies, Air-Toss and Sky Terran, which are extremely boring compositions to watch, play and play against. These armies are boring because they are slow, unresponsive and unresponsive, thus they are not suitable for snap micro like you have with phoenixes or mutas and thus are best used in a a-move.
It is thus paramount that ground units at all times hold the advantage in a head to head fight so as to force the air army to coax the most out of its mobility advantage.
The problem now is that we have many capital ship type units in the game that, after a certain critical mass, can not only fight toe to toe with their ground counters, but can even beat them, this should just not happen.
The reason why BW carrier was so beloved and such a successful capital ship is because it wasn't designed like a SC2 capital ship, it was designed more like mutalisks.
Carriers didn't have speed but they had ranged and they shined in situations where they could abuse that range coupled with terrain. Carriers were really bad against mass Goliaths if caught out and could be easily sniped.
I hope that after this patch the community can finally agree upon this fact and we can push for a general rework of air units in SC2.
That's very well said. But we can only hope that Blizzard would see that and have enough will to do anything with that.
I can't believe they're actually going through with this patch, addresses none of the current problems and adds loads. I'd better enjoy Homestory then cut my losses with this game.
I guess people are overestimating the effects of the patch. At least in TvZ and TvP, I just don't see mech becoming the go-to composition. We just saw the GSL test map tournament and the only players that actually even tried mech were Gumiho and Ryung. Both lost all games playing mech BTW. In TvP, nobody even bothered trying mech. I think the matchup that will be mostly changed is ZvP, based on how strong hydras will be. Even in this MU, Zest managed to defeat Byul pretty well, so I wouldn't be so scared at this point.
Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
On November 15 2016 23:59 MockHamill wrote: Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
You are definitely not the only one worried. Mech's increase in strength is heavily exaggerated. Take the tank for instance. People say that they have been extremely buffed, but this is not really true. The tank was basically buffed against armored units. Against non-armored the buff was almost marginal. At the same time, the tank was also NERFED by not being able to be picked up by medivacs, yet everyone seems to "forget" about this.
In TvZ, tanks become stronger vs roaches and ultralisks. But what if they use a composition of ling/bane/hydras? Is the marginal non-armored buff and the nerf of no tankivacs a net buff? I hardly think so. The viper is still the bane of any mech compositions anyway. Abduct thors, blind cloud tanks, and PB vikings.
In TvP, tanks are essentially stronger vs stalkers and immortals. What if they use a stargate/adept/archon composition? The buff is now almost irrelevant. The cyclones is almost the same thing. Good vs stalkers and meh against pretty much everything else. In fact, many argue that the new cyclones is actually worse, because now mech has no answer to oracles/phoenix openings. The AA dmg was heavily nerfed. It's hard to actually access TvP mech because NO PRO players even attempt it. It is that bad.
Regarding Blizzard, I honestly don't think they are actually trying to make mech viable. It's mostly PR to me. If that was the case why would they go all the way to make sure we don't have goliaths instead of thors? Blizzard is more interested in telling the players they are actually trying, while just ignoring the obvious flaws.
On November 15 2016 23:59 MockHamill wrote: Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
The thing is that there'll be a completely different map pool after the patch, so we should probably wait a bit longer before judging. If mech doesn't work on the upcoming map pool - in HotS that would have been one of the best map pools for mech period - then they probably didn't achieve their design goal.
On November 15 2016 23:59 MockHamill wrote: Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
You are definitely not the only one worried. Mech's increase in strength is heavily exaggerated. Take the tank for instance. People say that they have been extremely buffed, but this is not really true. The tank was basically buffed against armored units. Against non-armored the buff was almost marginal. At the same time, the tank was also NERFED by not being able to be picked up by medivacs, yet everyone seems to "forget" about this.
And the tank fire rate got nerfed. The gif is made with the old fire rate. So in the end its a minor buff in some situations and minor nerf vs light units (due lower fire rate) Verdict: meh. Edit: seems this isnt true ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26180674 )
Zerg army is since lotv so much more viable in every situation, too many roaches make some ravagers, too many hydra's make lurkers, too many corruptors? no problemo, they kill buildings now as well and lets make some Broodlords. Queen's are viable at every stage, the lings buff that made them good, even vs pf's, hellbats etc. Ultra early ling drops. For some reason i fear the most for PvZ.
On November 15 2016 23:59 MockHamill wrote: Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
It sucks then because I'd rather have mech TvZ/TvP than mech TvT :/.
I thought Tanks were traditionally the counters to Hydralisks in SC2 and were usually a deterrent to making Hydras at all. With a +1 vehicle attack upgrade, Tanks should be able to 2-shot Hydras in siege mode now instead of 3-shot them like before, if I'm not mistaken.
On November 16 2016 00:37 PinoKotsBeer wrote: And the tank fire rate got nerfed. The gif is made with the old fire rate. So in the end its a minor buff in some situations and minor nerf vs light units (due lower fire rate) Verdict: meh.
Actual numbers:
70 / 50 => 40% increase in burst damage versus armored.
40 / 35 => ~14% increase in burst damage versus non-armored.
DPS vs armored: (old) 50 / 2 = 25 (new) 70 / 2.14 = ~32.7 new DPS vs armored is ~30.8% better than old.
DPS vs non-armored: (old) 35 / 2 = 17.5 (new) 40 / 2.14 = ~18.7 new DPS vs non-armored is ~6.8% better than old.
The tank never is nerfed versus old tank DPS or burst damage. Only the mobility has been hit.
On November 16 2016 00:37 PinoKotsBeer wrote: And the tank fire rate got nerfed. The gif is made with the old fire rate. So in the end its a minor buff in some situations and minor nerf vs light units (due lower fire rate) Verdict: meh.
Actual numbers:
70 / 50 => 40% increase in burst damage versus armored.
40 / 35 => ~14% increase in burst damage versus non-armored.
DPS vs armored: (old) 50 / 2 = 25 (new) 70 / 2.14 = ~32.7 new DPS vs armored is ~30.8% better than old.
DPS vs non-armored: (old) 35 / 2 = 17.5 (new) 40 / 2.14 = ~18.7 new DPS vs non-armored is ~6.8% better than old.
The tank never is nerfed versus old tank DPS or burst damage. Only the mobility has been hit.
On November 16 2016 00:37 PinoKotsBeer wrote: And the tank fire rate got nerfed. The gif is made with the old fire rate. So in the end its a minor buff in some situations and minor nerf vs light units (due lower fire rate) Verdict: meh.
Actual numbers:
70 / 50 => 40% increase in burst damage versus armored.
40 / 35 => ~14% increase in burst damage versus non-armored.
DPS vs armored: (old) 50 / 2 = 25 (new) 70 / 2.14 = ~32.7 new DPS vs armored is ~30.8% better than old.
DPS vs non-armored: (old) 35 / 2 = 17.5 (new) 40 / 2.14 = ~18.7 new DPS vs non-armored is ~6.8% better than old.
The tank never is nerfed versus old tank DPS or burst damage. Only the mobility has been hit.
i stand corrected!
You do have a very valid angle to take the argument, though. The mobility is so severely hit that Tanks, in general, are much less useful versus masses of light units.
Fundamentally, I think this is ok. The design is moving away from "fly around and get free damage" to "carefully consider positioning and force the enemy to funnel into a death-zone". With proper support (cyclones / hellions), tanks in good positions should obliterate anything on the ground (light, tag less, armored, whatever).
The sad thing is that the anti-air for Terran is so unwieldy that, even though I feel the tank is vastly improved with this patch, an opponents' air units will simply bypass all its advantages and invalidate the unit.
The Thor needs changes in conjunction with the cyclone. Let the Thor be the anti-clumping unit (give it something like a 2 radius AoE with extremely slow fire rate ... think a mini aerial storm), and let the cyclone be the DPS unit versus air (fast fire rate, low damage -- like a marine). Then you could get a couple of thors (you really don't want more because of their immobility) to ward away things like muta flocks or phoenix ... and some cyclones to buffer for tanks / take care of air units leaking around your thors.
Without a realistic answer to air units, ground mech will never be a composition (they take about the same time to produce, but mech has many more limitations and weaknesses, currently).
Mech could be really fun. I hope they help Terran out by looking next at realistic anti-air options for cyclones and (especially) thors.
On November 16 2016 01:25 eviltomahawk wrote: I thought Tanks were traditionally the counters to Hydralisks in SC2 and were usually a deterrent to making Hydras at all. With a +1 vehicle attack upgrade, Tanks should be able to 2-shot Hydras in siege mode now instead of 3-shot them like before, if I'm not mistaken.
It does 2 hit but a good concave spreads hydra and it's insane dps does its work
On November 15 2016 23:59 MockHamill wrote: Am I the only one that is really worried that mech still is completely worthless except in TvT on the test map? Mech is stronger in theory but not in practice.
Not a single person I have talked to on bnet seems to have got mech to work outside of TvT on the test map.
It seems the pro players have the same issue by looking at tournaments and streams.
Is Blizzard aware of this or are they just hoping for the best?
You are definitely not the only one worried. Mech's increase in strength is heavily exaggerated. Take the tank for instance. People say that they have been extremely buffed, but this is not really true. The tank was basically buffed against armored units. Against non-armored the buff was almost marginal. At the same time, the tank was also NERFED by not being able to be picked up by medivacs, yet everyone seems to "forget" about this.
In TvZ, tanks become stronger vs roaches and ultralisks. But what if they use a composition of ling/bane/hydras? Is the marginal non-armored buff and the nerf of no tankivacs a net buff? I hardly think so. The viper is still the bane of any mech compositions anyway. Abduct thors, blind cloud tanks, and PB vikings.
In TvP, tanks are essentially stronger vs stalkers and immortals. What if they use a stargate/adept/archon composition? The buff is now almost irrelevant. The cyclones is almost the same thing. Good vs stalkers and meh against pretty much everything else. In fact, many argue that the new cyclones is actually worse, because now mech has no answer to oracles/phoenix openings. The AA dmg was heavily nerfed. It's hard to actually access TvP mech because NO PRO players even attempt it. It is that bad.
Regarding Blizzard, I honestly don't think they are actually trying to make mech viable. It's mostly PR to me. If that was the case why would they go all the way to make sure we don't have goliaths instead of thors? Blizzard is more interested in telling the players they are actually trying, while just ignoring the obvious flaws.
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity. We might have even seen a build that could contend with 14 minute no rush Infestor/Brood Lord if we had decent Siege Tanks during that era.
In Legacy of the Void however? I don't think it will make that much of a difference. One of Mech's biggest weaknesses is in its mobility, and if your opponent finds any way to slip past your defences, you're basically dead. This is especially the case with LotV tier harassment.
On November 15 2016 23:48 Tchado wrote: Blink to DTs ? I dont know about this.......
It's probably not actually problematic considering they had blink anyway with the WP but the fact that they thought it needed to be implemented put a big extra dent in my confidence about the future of the game. At least for me it's proof they don't know how, or better, where to improve the game. On the contrary even, this focus on harassment and constant adding of abilities is exactly what NOT needs to happen. Imo.
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity.
Did you play Wings? Siege Tanks were incredibly strong early on, mostly because maps were tiny and you could siege up a lot of mineral lines from the low ground.
A Siege Tank sieged up in the middle of map on Steppes of War could hit both players natural ramps.
When maps got huge, positional play and Siege Tanks became terrible and never recieved compensatory buffs.
On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote: I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
Are you "on" something ? I bet you are not zerg player or a subscriber of avilo. So you want to nerf everything that zerg have - delete key units, no fungal in sc2 anymore... you must be like top gm when zerg is that easy. Are you sure about being a zerg player ?
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity.
Did you play Wings? Siege Tanks were incredibly strong early on, mostly because maps were tiny and you could siege up a lot of mineral lines from the low ground.
A Siege Tank sieged up in the middle of map on Steppes of War could hit both players natural ramps.
On November 15 2016 20:46 Musicus wrote: Honestly, I've been a playing a bit and I don't understand the baneling buff at all, just a random change out of nowhere tbh. If ByuN focus firing banelings is the reason for this, it's a bit weird imo.
Then there is Blink DTs, a change that will do nothing on higher level, apart from a DT or two being saved sometimes. In lower leagues on the other hand, this will make the games even more frustrating and drive new players insane.
Those two and the random Viking change is something I don't get, but none of them will make a huge impact I think.
I guess to make Muta/blings more viable?
And I guess to make DT's less hardcountered by detections in the late game.
And I guess to make Viking harass more of a thing.
Overall though, I am not really that big of a fan of what Blizzad is doing here.
On November 16 2016 04:44 Topdoller wrote: My god is this still dragging on, why don't they get it done and over with. It should have rolled out right after GSL
I dunno... Wings of Liberty might have been perfectly balanced if Siege Tanks were buffed to this capacity.
Did you play Wings? Siege Tanks were incredibly strong early on, mostly because maps were tiny and you could siege up a lot of mineral lines from the low ground.
A Siege Tank sieged up in the middle of map on Steppes of War could hit both players natural ramps.
When maps got huge, positional play and Siege Tanks became terrible and never recieved compensatory buffs.
Yes, I played WoL. About 3500+ games total in fact.
That was more down to flawed map design than anything else. Blizzard map design during WoL was notoriously craptacular, and was the reason why tournaments overwhelmingly adopted community maps. Only during HotS and LotV did we see Blizzard make an actual effort with standardising the map pool and regulating it across all tournaments.
It's a worst-kept secret that the Siege Tank sucked. It wasn't even used viably in TvP until the Siegeivac change, and in HotS, the Widow Mine phased it out in 2 of 3 matchups.
tvz is kinda imbalanced now. ive played thepatch,. mech is useless. mutas is stronger than ever before. whit the lib and cyclone suck vs them. you cant go bio anymore. 6 minute burrowed infestor wreck any agression
On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote: I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man...
On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote: I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man...
He's not wrong about hydras melting though. I'd take health over range.
On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote: I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man...
He's not wrong about hydras melting though. I'd take health over range.
Well that was the thing that TLO and few other pros proposed in HOTS era. But in the other hand- range and speed makes Hydralisk a unit which can give u value with micro- something that Zerg was lacking forever. Terran has BIO splits and snipes, Toss has Blink and shit. Zerg had nothing, and i think Blizzard with buffing hydras like that wants to change it.
I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote: I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
Goliath is already there but looks uglier. Instead of doing the obvious of buffing the AA and nerfing the AG attack... they buffed the AG and removed AA attack (only a super weak lock on now).
Surely there are some good steps ahead in those changes, but also some steps that don't make any sense.
On November 16 2016 03:03 emc wrote: I got a better idea for zerg:
burrowed spell casting should be an upgrade for the infestor, maybe 200/200? it's very strong
instead of 7 range hydras, give hydras a +10 health upgrade instead, they don't really need more range, they need more survivalbility for being a T2 unit.
or if DK is really gonna go through with hydra buff, then nerf the queen, as a zerg player I admit this is a little unfair
ultra and BL nerfs seems reasonable
SH is still in an awkward spot, I think it would be cool if they were like the campaign where they could spread creep while burrowed to be more of a support unit to your army that you mix in.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they deleted the Viper if they removed neural parasite and gave the infestor abduct, maybe abduct from burrow is too strong and hard to focus fire? Or if they deleted the viper and removed fungal growth and gave the infestor blinding cloud, that would be much better imo
remove +10 health to banelings, what's the point? by the time you need them to have more health to combat upgrades, you should be working towards ultras, banes are a support unit to ling/muta, not a core unit.
So basically - just remove Zerg from the game? I wonder what was the process behind those BS proposals. Man...
He's not wrong about hydras melting though. I'd take health over range.
Well that was the thing that TLO and few other pros proposed in HOTS era. But in the other hand- range and speed makes Hydralisk a unit which can give u value with micro- something that Zerg was lacking forever. Terran has BIO splits and snipes, Toss has Blink and shit. Zerg had nothing, and i think Blizzard with buffing hydras like that wants to change it.
Wait what? I don't follow how giving it 25% speed on creep is going to make it a micro unit. We're not going to be dropping hydras in mineral lines or splitting and flanking. They'll still be slow.
Can anybode explain some things: 1) How Hydra speed changed? 2) What's behind Baneling buff? 3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote: I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
Goliath is already there but looks uglier. Instead of doing the obvious of buffing the AA and nerfing the AG attack... they buffed the AG and removed AA attack (only a super weak lock on now).
Surely there are some good steps ahead in those changes, but also some steps that don't make any sense.
As been mentioned through out the ages, the easiest and cleaniest solution would be to have BOTH: 1. Clunky Thor Anti Air with slow attack speed, long range, +light AoE - good against clumped light units (mainly mutas, phoenixes). Good synergy with bio when entering mid/late game. 2. relatively fast Goliath/Cyclon Anti Air with moderate attack speed, good damage, moderate range (with later upgrade buffing the range), +armored no AoE, no Lock-on - good against single targets (drops, banshees, oracles etc., after range upgrade decent against broodlords, carriers etc.). Good synergy with mech, good early game defense tool against aerial harass.
On November 16 2016 18:15 Jenia6109 wrote: Can anybode explain some things: 1) How Hydra speed changed? 2) What's behind Baneling buff? 3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
1) Hydra speed now gives a 25% speed buff to the Hydra permanently. On and off creep. It used to give the Hydras a speed buff off creep only , but now they are also faster on creep after you get the upgrade.
2) No idea honestly, the baneling was used more than enough imo. I guess they just want to buff the zerg mid game and also want to see Muta/ling/bane back, as suggested by the Liberator change.
3) Well they, uhm, you see, well... hmmmm. Obviously Vikings needed a buff vs Probes and Stalkers when being landed, but not vs Drones and Roaches! Makes total sense, trust me! Probably they wanted landing your vikings a viable option in mech vs mech games, to break siege tank lines or something.
I think they wanted to give vikings another use in TvP and TvT after killing any Collo/Prism/Medivac/Lib there might be, because their stats when landed just suck. In TvZ they can always be used to hunt overlords, so they don't really need a buff I guess. Sad part is they made it a better harass tool too, as if there weren't enough of those already.
U always want to engage on creep anyway so that's why Hydra speed buff will help- according to Probe1"s doubts. When it comes to baneling HP buff it's not so bad as they moved it to the speed upgrade. I think the idea behind this is to enforce banelings in midgame, as lately we saw Terrans not even splitting vs Banelings- only targetfire them and because of that they never lots position- now it's gonna be harder i suppose. And because hp buff is aviable after hooks upgrade, it won't break early game ZvZ and won't make baneling busts defence impossible.
When it comes to Vikings, i think Blizzard is adressing the fact that mostly in TvP they were situations like vs Collosus compositions or Tempests, that when Terran killed Toss air, often was losing all ground army and had lots of dead supply in those vikings. Now, they will be more useful in the matchup. In TvT- it's pretty much the same situation. In ZvT i think it never was the case, as Terran almost always stays ahead after taking good or even engagement- it's all about Zerg remax that comes bit later. That's why there's no need to buff vikings against biological.
P.S. - I remember how cancerous were mass viking harras in WOL, especially on those maps with lots of highgrounds and shit. I still hear IdrA's voice raging XD
On November 16 2016 18:15 Jenia6109 wrote: Can anybode explain some things: 1) How Hydra speed changed? 2) What's behind Baneling buff? 3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
The baneling buff seems pretty neat for early ZvZ. It's easier to deflect early ling rushes.
On November 16 2016 18:15 Jenia6109 wrote: Can anybode explain some things: 1) How Hydra speed changed? 2) What's behind Baneling buff? 3) Why ground Viking have +mechanical, not +armored bonus?
The baneling buff seems pretty neat for early ZvZ. It's easier to deflect early ling rushes.
You need lair and the speed upgrade for the extra 10hp, this change does not affect early ZvZ.
I think it will but not the early game. Giving hydras more prominence across all match ups can lead to a counter bane speed play. Hydras disappear when banelings hit em.
On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote: I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
didn't they already went over this in blizzcon? it overlaps with thor too much.
and honestly I don't really get what's the obsession with goliath. it's not unqie nor does it have any interesting mechanics.
On November 16 2016 20:43 Probe1 wrote: I think it will but not the early game. Giving hydras more prominence across all match ups can lead to a counter bane speed play. Hydras disappear when banelings hit em.
Obv this is mid-late and not early.
4 shots to kill the new speed Baneling vs 3 shots to kill the old Baneling. Sounds pretty good.
On November 16 2016 04:44 Topdoller wrote: My god is this still dragging on, why don't they get it done and over with. It should have rolled out right after GSL
i know eh? they balanced Brood War is about 4 days... talk about an inefficient bureaucracy! clearly they're paying David Kim by the hour because he is just creating work for himself.
On November 16 2016 17:56 ilikeredheads wrote: I don't think mech will ever be viable unless Blizzard stops its obsession with making Thor the main anti air unit. The simplest solution is bring back the Goliath, but DK will never do that for whatever reason. Ego? pride? stubbornness?
didn't they already went over this in blizzcon? it overlaps with thor too much.
and honestly I don't really get what's the obsession with goliath. it's not unqie nor does it have any interesting mechanics.
The goliath allowed for mech pushes to be prominent because they where good in somewhat small-medium numbers. One of Flash builds worked like this, he did a push that hit before a protoss could get an ammount of carriers that could get out of control.
The thor is the polar opposite, it is atrocious in small numbers, wich means it forces you to get a critical ammount of thors to attack, wich means a big part of your time you are just sitting in your base trying to stay alive while you get enough units to actually attack.
I think they should increase the fire-rate of Thor or its movement speed and reduce range of abduct. Aside from that I honestly think this patch is amazing you can tell David Kim and his team are working very hard to make Mech work so you gotta appreciate their effort
On November 17 2016 01:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: David Kim is just creating work for himself.
Can't put it any better. Pretty much summs up everything's happening with SC2.
God damnit will this narrative of "David Kim is literally the worst designer ever" ever stop?
Brood War wasn't a miracle product that just happened to be designed by the best designers ever, because the community did everything in their mind to absolutely take control over balance and fix any mistake that existed. There were phases in Brood War where, by today's standards, people would put out rage threads about imbalance every minute. It did take players with incredible skill to break imbalances for the rest of the players.
I have my fair share of issues with SC2's development as well, but the critique towards David Kim is the least useful one of them all.
Why are they giving dark templars blink! How is this fun and interesting or "cool" as DK like to say. It sounds like another pain in ass. Also speed banshees! Its like they are trying to drive all players back to BW. Why are they making this game so annoying to play?
EPT
