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On April 25 2016 16:18 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 13:41 showstealer1829 wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS I just couldn't wait for someone to shit on WCS, even if the system was announced six months after Life's fixed games (that prosecutor knows of). Wow. Do you still understand?
WCS 2015 was still limiting to Koreans, not as much as 2016 I'll grant you but still limiting. I notice you steered clear of the other point, when you get paid almost as much as WINNING the GSL for throwing one map, I can understand why. And with WCS 2016 it's going to get worse, not better.
I can easily make an.argument this way
- Bbyong takes part in a match known to be fixed in 2015
- WCS 2016 announced
- Bbyong matchfixes himself
The temptation will always be there and the stupid system you support will make matters worse, not better. I said it when it was announced and I'll continue saying it. That system will kill this game.
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On April 26 2016 04:36 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 16:18 aQuaSC wrote:On April 25 2016 13:41 showstealer1829 wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS I just couldn't wait for someone to shit on WCS, even if the system was announced six months after Life's fixed games (that prosecutor knows of). Wow. Do you still understand? WCS 2015 was still limiting to Koreans, not as much as 2016 I'll grant you but still limiting. I notice you steered clear of the other point, when you get paid almost as much as WINNING the GSL for throwing one map, I can understand why. And with WCS 2016 it's going to get worse, not better. I can easily make an.argument this way - Bbyong takes part in a match known to be fixed in 2015 - WCS 2016 announced - Bbyong matchfixes himself The temptation will always be there and the stupid system you support will make matters worse, not better. I said it when it was announced and I'll continue saying it. That system will kill this game.
Explain how it was limiting? How was Dreamhack and IEM any more limiting in 2015 as it was in 2014?
WCS - yes, but Bbyong wasn't a WCS player.
Bbyong participated in two overseas tournaments (with notable finishes) in his entire SC2 career, both of which were IEMs. It's not like Bbyong was like the Liquid Koreans or mYi Koreans who relied on the overseas tournaments.
Your argument is rather flawed for saying that WCS caused Bbyong's Matchfixing.
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On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
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Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
No, they sound like excuses to me too, and i'm far from a perfect being. I also don't think that you'd need to be "a perfect being" simply to stick to principles. What you do need is the ability to understand and accept a disadvantage of some kind if you do stick to your values. That's it.
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On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
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This shows that a lot of people stopped playing the game because of the intense competition happening with Starcraft. I used to be pro at this game back when this game was the main thing to look out for. It's sad too becase I still love this game but everyone else moved away from it.
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A lot of people used to play this game but instead of staying with the game, everyone moved to the next big thing being League of Legends. It's sad when I want to show my friends this fantastic game but they scream and rage at League instead oof having fun in Starcraft Arcade.
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On April 24 2016 17:18 xtorn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 08:32 Shield wrote:On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote:
Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand. The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction. Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo. If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
Second chance? Hahahahahaha. I can't believe the number of ignorant dumbasses here who don't realize how serious what life did is. This is something that does massive massive damage to the scene. There is a reason why savior is banned for life and all his accomplishments vacated. He's even been banned from streaming.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
everyone moved to the next big thing being League of Legends
LoL released a year before sc2 though
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On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
Funny how some people try to make Life and Bbyong victims and WCS the villain that caused all this, hahha.
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On April 26 2016 17:39 HornyHerring wrote:
Funny how some people try to make Life and Bbyong victims and WCS the villain that caused all this, hahha.
Indeed, it's quite laughable
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On April 26 2016 18:29 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 17:39 HornyHerring wrote:
Funny how some people try to make Life and Bbyong victims and WCS the villain that caused all this, hahha. Indeed, it's quite laughable
Its hard to accept not seeing your favorite player playing ever again  . I guess life was like the only person many people enjoyed watching including myself. O well there are great players that just need to get noticed.
I guess someone will kinda replace him eventually.
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On April 26 2016 15:27 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it. Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower. And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
So, now the people who believes that he was just greedy and stupid are not intelligent lol, really guy you are something, please tell us the hidden truth, your truth btw.
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On April 26 2016 23:42 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 15:27 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it. Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower. And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative. So, now the people who believes that he was just greedy and stupid are not intelligent lol, really guy you are something, please tell us the hidden truth, your truth btw.
Double post, please remove this one.
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I suppose for some people it is easier to pretend and to lay blame at a single individual's moral weakness than to imagine a wide spread culture which facilitates such. Make no mistake, Life did matchfix, but behind him is surely many more who are responsible. Blaming Life solely for his selfishness or greed is just an easy kneejerk reaction and intellectually lazy.
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Poland3754 Posts
On April 21 2016 22:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. Good luck with proving the damage they done. Mostly because they are not playing for months now and the result isn't in direct response with their actions but mostly with the action of prosecutor who made the statement 
I'd much rather have GSL a clause in the contract so that they have to refund winnings if they are found guilty of match fixing or similar behaviour.
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On April 26 2016 23:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I suppose for some people it is easier to pretend and to lay blame at a single individual's moral weakness than to imagine a wide spread culture which facilitates such. Make no mistake, Life did matchfix, but behind him is surely many more who are responsible. Blaming Life solely for his selfishness or greed is just an easy kneejerk reaction and intellectually lazy.
Thank you
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