The following is a translated summary of the official report (April 21, 2016) from the Changwon Regional Prosecution Service’s special investigations division. Some portions have been translated in whole, while others sections have been edited for clarity.
Supplementary information has been added in blue text. The original documents can be downloaded HERE.
StarCraft 2 Match-Fixing Investigation Result: - 8 indicted and arrested, including a top-class progamer
The Changwon Regional Prosecution Service’s special investigations division investigated match-fixing in StarCraft 2 between January and April of 2016 and identified eleven individuals involved. Eight have been indicted and arrested, two have been indicted but not arrested, and one individual remains at large.
One top-class StarCraft 2 PROGAMER, a GSL champion and WCS runner-up in 2015, is charged with receiving 70,000,000 won (approximately $62,000 USD) to manipulate two matches. Four BROKERS are charged with using personal relationships to solicit match-fixing. Two FINANCIAL BACKERS are charged with providing cash in compensation for match-fixing. One individual responsible for the placing of bets is also charged. These eight individuals have been indicted and arrested.
One StarCraft 2 PROGAMER is charged with receiving 30,000,000 won to manipulate one match, and later turned himself in to the authorities. One FINANCIAL BACKER is charged with providing compensation for the match-fixing; he has already been arrested in a previous case. One additional financial backer is currently at large.
The Changwon Prosecution Service’s first investigation in October of 2015 resulted in the indictment of nine individuals involved in StarCraft 2 match-fixing (read the October report here). This second investigation confirms esports match-fixing is occurring on a broad large scale, highlighting the need for not only continued policing, but extreme measures from the Korea eSports Association.
We plan to continue enforcing the law against match-fixers who would impede fairness in society.
I. The Defendants and Official Charges
*Though the investigators did not directly release any names, many identities have been effectively confirmed through the details of the investigation.
1. PROGAMER “A” (age 19)—Life
2015-05-03 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “L” (Terminator): After receiving 35,000,000 won from broker “B,” Life intentionally lost in his match with “L.”
2015-05-04 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “M” (Dream): After receiving 35,000,000 won from broker “B,” Life intentionally lost in his match with “M.”
2. BROKER “B” (age 25)
2015-05-03 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “L”: Transferred 35,000,000 won of compensation to Life for match-fixing in the aforementioned matches. “B” earned winnings from online betting on those matches.
2015-05-04 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “M”: Transferred 35,000,000 won of compensation to Life for match-fixing in the aforementioned matches. “B” earned winnings from online betting on those matches.
3. Employee “C,” who worked for financial backer “D” (age 30)
2015-05-03 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “L”: Using information on the manipulated match, “C” placed bets on internet gambling sites and earned winnings.
2015-05-04 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “M”: Using information on the manipulated match, “C” placed bets on internet gambling sites and earned winnings.
4. FINANCIAL BACKER “D” (age 41)
2015-05-03 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “L”: Put up 50,000,000 won for betting manipulated matches, earning winnings from bets on those matches.
2015-05-04 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “M”: Put up 50,000,000 won for betting manipulated matches, earning winnings from bets on those matches.
5. FINANCIAL BACKER “E”—Enough, a former StarCraft 1 progamer and games journalist. He had already been arrested and convicted as a broker in the October ‘15 match-fixing investigation
2015-05-03 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “L”: Gave 35,000,000 won of compensation to Life for match-fixing. Enough also earned winnings from online betting on those matches.
2015-05-04 KeSPA Cup match, “A” vs. “M”: Gave 35,000,000 won of compensation to Life for match-fixing. Enough also earned winnings from online betting on those matches.
2015-05-13 GSL Season 2 Code S Ro32, “P” vs. “J”: Using information on manipulated matches, Enough placed bets on internet gambling sites and earned winnings.
6. BROKER “F” (age 25)
2016-01-15 GSL Season 1, “J” (Bbyong) vs. “N” (DRGLing): Conspiring together with financial backers “H” and “K,” “F” gave progamer “J” a total of 30,000,000 won in compensation for match-fixing. “F” earned winnings from online betting on the match.
7. BROKER “G” (age 31)
2016-01-15 GSL Season 1, “J” vs. “N”: Conspiring with financial backer “K,” gave progamer “J” 20,000,000 won in compensation for match-fixing. “G” earned winnings from online betting on the matches.
8. FINANCIAL BACKER “H” (age 33)
2016-01-15 GSL Season 1, “J” vs. “N”: Conspiring with financial backer “K,” gave progamer “J” 20,000,000 won in compensation for match-fixing. “G” earned winnings from online betting on the matches.
9. BROKER “I” (age 31)
2016-01-15 GSL Season 1, “J” vs. “N”: Conspiring “G,” “F,” and financial backer “K,” gave progamer “J” 20,000,000 won in compensation for match fixing.
10. PROGAMER “J” (age 24)—Bbyong
2016-01-15 GSL Season 1, “J” (Bbyong) vs. “N” (DRGLing): After receiving 30,000,000 won from financial backers “H” and “K,” Bbyong intentionally lost in his match with “N.”
II. Investigation Timeline
October, 2015: Twelve individuals identified, nine arrested and indicted related to match-fixing in StarCraft 2 (first investigation).
January, 2016: Second investigation commences after the apprehension of a broker at large.
January-April, 2016: Eleven individuals identified. Eight indicted and arrested, two indicted but not arrested, one at large.
III. CASE DETAILS.
1. Well-known, top-class progamers involved in match-fixing.
Progamer “A,” one of the greatest StarCraft 2 players at present, and Zerg player with the most premier tournament championships, received 70,000,000 won from a broker to intentionally lose in two games.
Progamer “J,” a top-class progamer, received 30,000,000 won from a broker to intentionally lose one game.
2. Systematic execution with clear division of roles.
The crimes were perpetrated with clear division of roles: Financial backers to put up the compensation for match-fixing, brokers to solicit the match-fixing and transfer the funds, and an employee in charge of receiving gambling funds and placing bets on gambling sites.
Approaching progamers under the guise of being fans: Broker “B” approached progamer “A” under the guise of being a fan and established a relationship. Afterward he solicited match-fixing, claiming that ‘all the other pros are making money from match-fixing.’
Brokers “F,” “G,” and “I” also approached progamer “J” under the pretense of being fans. They later solicited match-fixing and arranged a meeting with financial backers.
Match-fixing funds put up by financial backers: “E,” a former StarCraft 1 progamer and games journalist, acted a financial backer. He delivered the match-fixing funds through broker “B,” and employed “C” to place bets on gambling sites. During the investigation, “E” was already on trial (he has since been convicted) for his involvement in the PRIME match-fixing case as a broker.
Financial backer “D” received information on fixed matches from “E,” and gave him funds for gambling.
Financial backer “H” gave progamer “J” compensation for match-fixing directly.
3. Profiting from illegal online gambling sites.
Financial backers “E,” “D” and “H” gave match-fixing compensation to progamers directly or through brokers. Afterward, they placed bets on the fixed matches through illegal gambling site, taking in earnings and replenishing funds for future match-fixing.
The maximum bet for one person on illegal gambling sites was 1,000,000 won, while the payout was roughly 1.3~1.5 times the bet. As earnings were low when betting on only one site, backers ordered their employees to register on many gambling sites and place multiple, simultaneous bets.
The only good thing is that they seem to have caught a lot of brokers and financial backers too, which is even more important than catching a player imo.
On April 21 2016 18:42 Musicus wrote: The only good thing is that they seem to have caught a lot of brokers and financial backers too, which is even more important than catching a player imo.
This is 100% accurate. Life and Bbyong are the symptoms, the gambling syndicates are the disease.
seriously though, how stupid does one have to be to basically fall for the argument "everyone is jumping from the cliff, you should too"?
like even if it were true that everyone fixes matches, Life, why would you fix matches with your massive winnings, popularity and talent? seems like he only was a natural genius ingame, because that decisionmaking cost him his current and possibly future careers in both gaming and other fields.
On April 21 2016 18:42 Musicus wrote: The only good thing is that they seem to have caught a lot of brokers and financial backers too, which is even more important than catching a player imo.
This is 100% accurate. Life and Bbyong are the symptoms, the gambling syndicates are the disease.
It's like there is no option not to co-work with such syndicates if u're top tier player?
On April 21 2016 18:52 Tanzklaue wrote: seriously though, how stupid does one have to be to basically fall for the argument "everyone is jumping from the cliff, you should too"?
like even if it were true that everyone fixes matches, Life, why would you fix matches with your massive winnings, popularity and talent? seems like he only was a natural genius ingame, because that decisionmaking cost him his current and possibly future careers in both gaming and other fields.
It looks like he had problems with gambling. Which isn't an excuse for his deeds. But it shows that KeSPA doesn't care. Teams don't care. Which is kinda sad. A gambling person who will stay crystal clear when you have these shady persons around, sure, yeah.
I can remember the game between dream and life. But dream was really good, he made multiple widow mine drops, where life lost a lot of his workers. It was not a suspicious game. It looked like dream was just faster at multitasking, but now we know that life just threw the game intentionally.
The sums are incredible. 30000 dollar for just one match. How can you say no to that.
On April 21 2016 18:52 Tanzklaue wrote: seriously though, how stupid does one have to be to basically fall for the argument "everyone is jumping from the cliff, you should too"?
like even if it were true that everyone fixes matches, Life, why would you fix matches with your massive winnings, popularity and talent? seems like he only was a natural genius ingame, because that decisionmaking cost him his current and possibly future careers in both gaming and other fields.
Except it's not "everybody is jumping from the cliff" but rather "everybody is getting rich as hell for literally no effort", 30 million won is basically about a year's worth of wage. After seeing the sort of institutionalized and "socially acceptable" corruption in so many professional fields it's a reality that we have to deal with. These are still kids and young adults we are talking about so they are even more prune to influence.
On April 21 2016 18:59 todespolka wrote: I can remember the game between dream and life. But dream was really good, he made multiple widow mine drops, where life lost a lot of his workers. It was not a suspicious game. It looked like dream was just faster at multitasking, but now we know that life just threw the game intentionally.
The sums are incredible. 30000 dollar for just one match. How can you say no to that.
I think it was the game where Life lost 3 drones vs 1 reaper and then 4 more and a queen vs 3 reapers. Something that would never happen to a zerg on that level. Moonglade was really confused about what was happening while casting.
On April 21 2016 18:52 Tanzklaue wrote: seriously though, how stupid does one have to be to basically fall for the argument "everyone is jumping from the cliff, you should too"?
like even if it were true that everyone fixes matches, Life, why would you fix matches with your massive winnings, popularity and talent? seems like he only was a natural genius ingame, because that decisionmaking cost him his current and possibly future careers in both gaming and other fields.
It looks like he had problems with gambling. Which isn't an excuse for his deeds. But it shows that KeSPA doesn't care. Teams don't care. Which is kinda sad. A gambling person who will stay crystal clear when you have these shady persons around, sure, yeah.
wouldn't it say so in the case report though?
i dunno how much truth is to that whole gambling thing, he did gamble yea, but enough to throw away almost 500k dollar? i dunno man.
On April 21 2016 18:59 todespolka wrote: I can remember the game between dream and life. But dream was really good, he made multiple widow mine drops, where life lost a lot of his workers. It was not a suspicious game. It looked like dream was just faster at multitasking, but now we know that life just threw the game intentionally.
The sums are incredible. 30000 dollar for just one match. How can you say no to that.
You start by saying an "N" and follow by an "o". It is quite easy. Unless you have problems then it is harder and harder I get why Prime players match fixed, I get why Life match fixed, I am still waiting why Bbyong did it. Because I think he had some problems too, that's why you care about players with problems, to keep them strong so they can say "No".
Life and Bbyong were just peasants in this game. Catching all the brokers and financial backers is a good start but they need to catch the king in this game of chess to stop match-fixing.
On April 21 2016 18:52 Tanzklaue wrote: seriously though, how stupid does one have to be to basically fall for the argument "everyone is jumping from the cliff, you should too"?
like even if it were true that everyone fixes matches, Life, why would you fix matches with your massive winnings, popularity and talent? seems like he only was a natural genius ingame, because that decisionmaking cost him his current and possibly future careers in both gaming and other fields.
It looks like he had problems with gambling. Which isn't an excuse for his deeds. But it shows that KeSPA doesn't care. Teams don't care. Which is kinda sad. A gambling person who will stay crystal clear when you have these shady persons around, sure, yeah.
wouldn't it say so in the case report though?
i dunno how much truth is to that whole gambling thing, he did gamble yea, but enough to throw away almost 500k dollar? i dunno man.
Why? This has nothing to do with the fact that he match fixed. Why he did that is Life's defense and prosecutor doesn't care. The same way there's not written why Bbyong turned himself in.
I write it again, betting person is a problem for the system(if what MC stated is true, he was able to lose 20k USD in one night). "Oh, look, you lost $ 20k. How about we say you didn't lose anything and when we need a favor, you help us? The time may not come, just remember, you owe us a favor"... where have I heard similar things, hmmm
On April 21 2016 18:52 Tanzklaue wrote: seriously though, how stupid does one have to be to basically fall for the argument "everyone is jumping from the cliff, you should too"?
like even if it were true that everyone fixes matches, Life, why would you fix matches with your massive winnings, popularity and talent? seems like he only was a natural genius ingame, because that decisionmaking cost him his current and possibly future careers in both gaming and other fields.
As it was pointed out already, one good thing from it is that they did catch not only players, but people behind scenes as well. Also explains why we haven't seen Bbyong play this year and it's not cause he has medical problems. Sad, I liked the guy.
Thank you wax for the translation and structured post, appreciate it. Even if it is sad news, especially about Bbyong, still respect the guy for giving himself up, that takes a lot of balls for sure. Shows that the other teams probably have good values too. Love for Bbyong and ffs Life gtfo
I'm angry at Life and sad for Bbyong, is this the first time a match-fixer self-confess? I didn't know Bbyong well, but this is quite sad, he was really a pillar player for CJ, and he was friendly towards his fan. Too bad his friendliness was taken advantage of
On April 21 2016 18:59 todespolka wrote: I can remember the game between dream and life. But dream was really good, he made multiple widow mine drops, where life lost a lot of his workers. It was not a suspicious game. It looked like dream was just faster at multitasking, but now we know that life just threw the game intentionally.
The sums are incredible. 30000 dollar for just one match. How can you say no to that.
I think it was the game where Life lost 3 drones vs 1 reaper and then 4 more and a queen vs 3 reapers. Something that would never happen to a zerg on that level. Moonglade was really confused about what was happening while casting.
Just watched it. Hahaa, it's like after his Terminator throw they told him he should make it a little less obvious next time. His throw vs. Dream was a lot more natural.
I appreciate and respect the extremely precise chain of events uncovered by the long investigation, but why, why, why the fuck would he risk hid entire career and skill potential for FUTURE winnings, given his total earnings? Surely he thought at one point, "i can make this money anyway in x months without accepting this", the amounts are too small for a player like Life. I can imagine he was told he would get a lot more to lure him into it, but upon completion he got a much smaller transfer.
On April 21 2016 19:22 xtorn wrote: This makes zero sense.
I appreciate and respect the extremely precise chain of events uncovered by the long investigation, but why, why, why the fuck would he risk hid entire career and FUTURE winnings, given his total earnings? Surely he thought at one point, "i can make this money anyway in x months without accepting this", the amounts are too small for a player like Life. I can imagine he was told he would get a lot more to lure him into it, but upon completion he got a much smaller transfer.
Well, if you consider the gambling rumors to be true, he probably needed the money.
Well then. Glad we got this out of the way finally.
Sad that Bbyong is involved. I can see how it happens for players like him, and Yoda, who are so close to the top, but never quite manage to get there. All that money must be tempting. That's the level where a lot of matchfixing in physical sports happens too.
Life though. What an asshole. He had everything a pro-gamer could wish for and he threw it all away.
On April 21 2016 19:22 xtorn wrote: This makes zero sense.
I appreciate and respect the extremely precise chain of events uncovered by the long investigation, but why, why, why the fuck would he risk hid entire career and skill potential for FUTURE winnings, given his total earnings? Surely he thought at one point, "i can make this money anyway in x months without accepting this", the amounts are too small for a player like Life. I can imagine he was told he would get a lot more to lure him into it, but upon completion he got a much smaller transfer.
$62.000 is a lot of money. That's over twice the yearly wage for a lot of people even in high wage countries. Life has made nearly $500k in prize money + whatever his Kespa wages are, and that's a good chunk of money, but not so much that 62k is insignificant. Especially if any of the gambling debt rumors are true.
bbyong being involved in something like this is probably the biggest surprise to me, when i was living with cj for a month in late 2013 he was one of the most down to earth and zen characters i've ever encountered. sucks
Is this why Bbyong forfeit his GSL RO32 ? It was "personnal reason" but if he turned himself him... maybe he didn't want this GSL to be spoiled by this ?
On April 21 2016 19:32 Asarha wrote: Is this why Bbyong forfeit his GSL RO32 ? It was "personnal reason" but if he turned himself him... maybe he didn't want this GSL to be spoiled by this ?
The money received is huge, wtf! $30000 for losing a match??? How much money do these betters even earn? Is the betting scene really that large in revenue?
This makes me pretty scared for the scene. With these high amounts of money a lot of desperate progamers can be targeted. (and non desperate ones too... Life ffs)
I mean look at this:
This basically kills the competitive scene if the matchfix money is larger than actual earnable money. Good lord...
What really scares me is that if these numbers are true, if 30'000 $ are offered to simply throw ONE single match, i figure there is a whole lot of match fixing going on and to believe that this was an isolated incident seems kind of naive. I am afraid this was just the tip of the ice berg.
On April 21 2016 19:28 Lgnarrow wrote: Lol, Life won those two matches
Yeah, seems to me he got the money just for losing MAPS, not the Match itself. Getting that much money for winning the match anyways gives me the chills. There's a whole lot of work incoming
On April 21 2016 19:51 looken wrote: What really scares me is that if these numbers are true, if 30'000 $ are offered to simply throw ONE single match, i figure there is a whole lot of match fixing going on and to believe that this was an isolated incident seems kind of naive. I am afraid this was just the tip of the ice berg.
Always been like this, they only catch the ones that arent careful enough not to get caught
On April 21 2016 19:51 looken wrote: What really scares me is that if these numbers are true, if 30'000 $ are offered to simply throw ONE single match, i figure there is a whole lot of match fixing going on and to believe that this was an isolated incident seems kind of naive. I am afraid this was just the tip of the ice berg.
this reminds me of tennis. usually, if you are not in the top 50, you dont earn nearly enough but its very easy to fix a match and much much more profitable then placing "high" in some random challenger tournament. And its really easy to fix a match in tennis.
This definitely makes me sick to my stomach to read. Anyone else who was around during the fall of Savior is probably feeling the weight of that event come back. This is absolutely terrible.
On April 21 2016 20:08 -Archangel- wrote: Now every time we see a pro player do some stupid tactic that has his lose the game we can never be sure if he was matchfixing or not
This is a big problem. I already have trouble watching weird throws in SPL after the Prime stuff. Now it seems every league is not safe. Fucking kills the passion man.
Sorry but this is life´s own fail. This is cheating and i hope he lrean from it. He was my favorite zerg but i´m not a fan anymore after this. I hope he dont can come back. This needs a lifetime ban because he do this twice. He know waht he is doing and this not justifiable.
On April 21 2016 19:22 xtorn wrote: This makes zero sense.
I appreciate and respect the extremely precise chain of events uncovered by the long investigation, but why, why, why the fuck would he risk hid entire career and FUTURE winnings, given his total earnings? Surely he thought at one point, "i can make this money anyway in x months without accepting this", the amounts are too small for a player like Life. I can imagine he was told he would get a lot more to lure him into it, but upon completion he got a much smaller transfer.
Well, if you consider the gambling rumors to be true, he probably needed the money.
That is just about the only way this makes sense. Someone probably had dirt on him over it. It makes me less sympathies if true, as it ends up being something he brought upon himself.
On April 21 2016 19:03 fealx wrote: Life and Bbyong were just peasants in this game. Catching all the brokers and financial backers is a good start but they need to catch the king in this game of chess to stop match-fixing.
Sorry but the king of this game cannot be catched cause is Money. When money are involved this things will happen for sure, they can only put severe control to limit this as much as possible and try to educate well these boys.
On April 21 2016 18:56 Inflicted wrote: I feel sorry for DRGLing, his first competitive win was a fixed match
Holy fuck thats the worst part...
I just rewatched the series and it seems pretty legit overall. The more I think of it the more i believe that Bbyong had planned to lose the second game on purpose, while winning 1 and 3 but he lost the first one in a standard, back and forth macrogame in which it looks like he really wanted the win. If this is right in the end his matchfixing plan didn't even impact the series !
On April 21 2016 19:03 fealx wrote: Life and Bbyong were just peasants in this game. Catching all the brokers and financial backers is a good start but they need to catch the king in this game of chess to stop match-fixing.
Sorry but the king of this game cannot be catched cause is Money. When money are involved this things will happen for sure, they can only put severe control to limit this as much as possible and try to educate well these boys.
KeSPA needs to start caring about players. Right now they care only when something like this happens which is wrong.
I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
However I think it's time to stop putting blame on KeSPA. I'm sure they're not exactly happy with this situation either; an "you reap what you sow" approach towards KeSPA is not productive at all.
I hope they look at the situation and start looking towards lasting, effective solutions for the protection of progamers and Starcraft.
Anyway, this is absolutely terrible news. I hope it never happens again.
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Its rumoured that he had gambling problems
The sad thruth is, the only thing better than "having money" is, well, having more money. I pretty much don't care for his reasonings behind this, although they could help getting some sort of "understanding" for his behaviour. But well, getting 62k US-$ for actually not even LOSING the matches? Such an easy way of getting a ton of money, even without ruining your tournament run? That's really tempting. This doesn't actually NEED a proper reasoning such as gambling, that whole opportunity is just way to easy.
I don't really get why everybody is so lenient on Bbyong while condemning Life. Ok, he turned himself in but that looks like a move of damage limitation to me. Perhaps he knew about the connections to Life's case and that he would get caught eventually. Assuming him being remorseful is just a wild guess (just like mine ^^).
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Its rumoured that he had gambling problems
The sad thruth is, the only thing better than "having money" is, well, having more money. I pretty much don't care for his reasonings behind this, although they could help getting some sort of "understanding" for his behaviour. But well, getting 62k US-$ for actually not even LOSING the matches? Such an easy way of getting a ton of money, even without ruining your tournament run? That's really tempting. This doesn't actually NEED a proper reasoning such as gambling, that whole opportunity is just way to easy.
Using "dirty" money is a problem. You cannot use them easily because it attracts an attention of bureaus and you can be easily investigated. My mom works in prison and I've heard several stories about people who thought that having more money in shady way is actually easy and you can use them without any problems
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Its rumoured that he had gambling problems
The sad thruth is, the only thing better than "having money" is, well, having more money. I pretty much don't care for his reasonings behind this, although they could help getting some sort of "understanding" for his behaviour. But well, getting 62k US-$ for actually not even LOSING the matches? Such an easy way of getting a ton of money, even without ruining your tournament run? That's really tempting. This doesn't actually NEED a proper reasoning such as gambling, that whole opportunity is just way to easy.
Yep, I guess you're right. God I would love to slap Life just once... When players aren't succesfull I can get why MF can be a solution (Prime). But here, meh, this is just disappointing. At least I'm glad that no player is safe from an investigation. Even if its a big name. Here's my ray of hope.
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Its rumoured that he had gambling problems
The sad thruth is, the only thing better than "having money" is, well, having more money. I pretty much don't care for his reasonings behind this, although they could help getting some sort of "understanding" for his behaviour. But well, getting 62k US-$ for actually not even LOSING the matches? Such an easy way of getting a ton of money, even without ruining your tournament run? That's really tempting. This doesn't actually NEED a proper reasoning such as gambling, that whole opportunity is just way to easy.
Yep, I guess you're right. God I would love to slap Life just once... When players aren't succesfull I can get why MF can be a solution (Prime). But here, meh, this is just disappointing. At least I'm glad that no player is safe from an investigation. Even if its a big name. Here's my ray of hope.
In the case of Prime - they were practically slaves. It§s not that they were not successful, the MF of Prime uncovered a lot of dirt on the team and Gerrard.
On April 21 2016 20:29 WidowMineHero wrote: So this is why bbyong wasn't on the CJ line up. surprised no one spoke much about bbyong before this.
Well TL mods tend to be quite sensitive for speculations.. Like you get banned for mentioning MKP in a thread like this.... To even dare speak avout BByong, no way. We shall not discuss these things
On April 21 2016 20:29 WidowMineHero wrote: So this is why bbyong wasn't on the CJ line up. surprised no one spoke much about bbyong before this.
Well TL mods tend to be quite sensitive for speculations.. Like you get banned for mentioning MKP in a thread like this.... To even dare speak avout BByong, no way. We shall not discuss these things
bbyong is convicted, MKP is not even related to this, you're safe.
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Its rumoured that he had gambling problems
The sad thruth is, the only thing better than "having money" is, well, having more money. I pretty much don't care for his reasonings behind this, although they could help getting some sort of "understanding" for his behaviour. But well, getting 62k US-$ for actually not even LOSING the matches? Such an easy way of getting a ton of money, even without ruining your tournament run? That's really tempting. This doesn't actually NEED a proper reasoning such as gambling, that whole opportunity is just way to easy.
Using "dirty" money is a problem. You cannot use them easily because it attracts an attention of bureaus and you can be easily investigated. My mom works in prison and I've heard several stories about people who thought that having more money in shady way is actually easy and you can use them without any problems
Yeah, that's actually a good point. On the other hand, life is 19 years old, who knows what amount of "Common sense" he accumulated. Yeah, he has had a pro-gaming career any SC2-pro can only dream of, but what else? His career would come to an end, one way or another, and he HAD to think of what's coming after this. So there is this opportunity, getting that huge chunk of money, with a very little chance of anyone noticing, since he didn't even generate an upset. He lost 2 maps, get's a really nice payout, and continues his way to the very top of SC2. All reasoning aside, how is this not oh so tempting for a 19 year old guy, that may not even know how his life is going to be AFTER his Pro-Gaming time?
Life ruined his entire life for 62k dollars. What an idiot. Damnatio memoriae... this is what he deserves. Well, at least the forces of good won at the end.
To everyone talking about protoss not matchfixing, obviously protoss are likely to matchfix the most. Thats why all the terrans and zergs wants a piece of the cake. The difference is that unlike zergs and terrans protoss are good enough at decision making and strategic thinking to pull it off. Thats why they never get caught xD
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Winner from Kespa cup gets ₩ 10,000,000 Life matchfixed 2 maps and gets ₩ 70,000,000 thats pretty easy mathematics. Life is good but not that good he can just look at tournament "Nice extra pocket money ez 1st place" He also had some kind of problem with gambling when he was competing outside Korea he probably wasn't that rich even though he won a lot from tournaments.
Sad but expected. I wonder if Life/Bbyong will release some apology or something I would like to hear their thoughts about this.
On April 21 2016 20:56 Shuffleblade wrote: To everyone talking about protoss not matchfixing, obviously protoss are likely to matchfix the most. Thats why all the terrans and zergs wants a piece of the cake. The difference is that unlike zergs and terrans protoss are good enough at decision making and strategic thinking to pull it off. Thats why they never get caught xD
Seed, Khala my ass you strategic genius
(obviously no accusation just joking around)
Protoss don't need wealthy they can throw for just sake of throwing like Lilbow end of hots ":D"
Seeing those huge payouts for fixing only one game really puts the low salaries and earnings of most Korean SC2 players into perspective. I mean I legit thought what they won for fixing a single game was, like $1,000 or slightly higher. Seeing this I really doubt only PRIME + those two are guilty, I think shit will unfold slowly over time.
As for Life, sad to see him do that, though I guess that's what talented kids do. As for Bbyong, even sadder to see him do that, though I guess (hope for him, at least) that if he turned himself in he had negociated a lesser sentence before (if that's possible in Korea).
Do we know when will sentences be made?
edit : also, does anyone has links to the incriminated games?
I personally don't want to hear from either player.
I want the Korean scene to be strong, have lots of events, lots of strong players and strong teams (like SKT and Jinair) who compete to the best of their ability in cool events like GSL, SSL, Proleague and KeSPA Cups.
Between Blizzard stifling Koreans by preventing them from competing in international and open events, as well as some Koreans match-fixing because of easy money, the outlook for Korean players is just a little bleak right now.
What are sponsors even thinking right now? What are fans and viewers thinking? What are other professionals thinking?
It's just a disgusting situation all around.
On April 21 2016 20:02 thecrazymunchkin wrote: If people are as morbidly curious as me:
On April 21 2016 18:59 todespolka wrote: I can remember the game between dream and life. But dream was really good, he made multiple widow mine drops, where life lost a lot of his workers. It was not a suspicious game. It looked like dream was just faster at multitasking, but now we know that life just threw the game intentionally.
The sums are incredible. 30000 dollar for just one match. How can you say no to that.
well, if Dream just simply outplays Life it just makes it easier for the latter to lose without it being suspicious. that doesn't mean nobody paid him to lose on purpose "in case he would otherwise win".
glad they have been caught, sad that it's been happening. i'm surprised they were (apparently) dumb enough to wire the money through banks rather than handing them cash but hey, good for the justice system.
I'm just glad Bbyong decided to turn himself into the police instead of something more drastic like suicide (or an attempt thereof) once the guilt of what he had done set in.
On April 21 2016 20:26 SinO[Ob] wrote: I still dont get why Life MF. I mean 30k$ is huge but Life had won so much already and could have win way more by simply playing.... I'd really like to know, why?
Winner from Kespa cup gets ₩ 10,000,000 Life matchfixed 2 maps and gets ₩ 70,000,000 thats pretty easy mathematics. Life is good but not that good he can just look at tournament "Nice extra pocket money ez 1st place" He also had some kind of problem with gambling when he was competing outside Korea he probably wasn't that rich even though he won a lot from tournaments.
Sad but expected. I wonder if Life/Bbyong will release some apology or something I would like to hear their thoughts about this.
Well, it's not entirely unlike drug dealing where the rewards are also dramatically more than honest work. You can get a big payout but you also have quite a bit more risk. You're not going to get prosecuted for winning a KeSPA cup.
On April 21 2016 20:37 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't really get why everybody is so lenient on Bbyong while condemning Life. Ok, he turned himself in but that looks like a move of damage limitation to me. Perhaps he knew about the connections to Life's case and that he would get caught eventually. Assuming him being remorseful is just a wild guess (just like mine ^^).
I think it's mostly because everybody who has met him describes him as a nice guy and so he seemed during broadcasts as well. The excitement we could see in his games makes it less believable that he did it for greed and makes many people think about possible circumstances that made him do it. But yes, those are all just guesses as you said, and we will probably never know the whole truth. Too bad.
On April 21 2016 20:55 Pr0wler wrote: Life ruined his entire life for 62k dollars. What an idiot. Damnatio memoriae... this is what he deserves. Well, at least the forces of good won at the end.
Kid's 18 and probably did not even graduate high school, i mean not to be rude but he is not exactly a rocket scientist when it comes to anything that isn't sc2.
On April 21 2016 21:04 Incognoto wrote: I personally don't want to hear from either player.
I want the Korean scene to be strong, have lots of events, lots of strong players and strong teams (like SKT and Jinair) who compete to the best of their ability in cool events like GSL, SSL, Proleague and KeSPA Cups.
Between Blizzard stifling Koreans by preventing them from competing in international and open events, as well as some Koreans match-fixing because of easy money, the outlook for Korean players is just a little bleak right now.
What are sponsors even thinking right now? What are fans and viewers thinking? What are other professionals thinking?
On April 21 2016 20:55 Pr0wler wrote: Life ruined his entire life for 62k dollars. What an idiot. Damnatio memoriae... this is what he deserves. Well, at least the forces of good won at the end.
Kid's 18 and probably did not even graduate high school, i mean not to be rude but he is not exactly a rocket scientist when it comes to anything that isn't sc2.
I'll add that 62K is like 15% of his lifelong earnings, that's big
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
You have proof he's innocent? Pretty sure the prosecutors had enough evidence to legitimately say he was guilty, even back in January when they arrested him they said he received money for it. >_>
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
Uh? I mean I like Life a lot, but : (1) I'm not expert in Law, don't get me wrong, but technically isn't "losing on purpose" (so, only your "First") considered as "matchfixing", since you are intentionally affecting the outcome of a game instead of playing to your full capacities? (2) How can you assess that Life is innocent out of thin air? I mean I can understand the bit about a good lawyer, but how do you think you know for sure that he's innocent?
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
Welcome in the first stage of getting over it: Denial
I always liked life, from the ZeNEX days...The first ever royal roader in sc2...the denial of mvp's G5L. But it's really disappointing that its come to this. Life, you stupid boy. Greed and money are two very dangerous things for young people... The confirmation of this leaves me feeling like the day I learnt of my Childhood hero's involvement in Cricket Match-Fixing.
Bbyong, it could have been assumed but not spoken about that he was implicated in all of this based on his "medical issues" without any release fromthe team. I feel really bad for the CJ guys though. I'm sure this situation has impacted and translated in part to their horrid proleague season I'm glad he had the conscience to hand himself in though, at least he's on the path to redemption.
I'm curious... is Rekrul going to make an appearance in this thread? His ambiguous one-liners in Jan/Feb alluded to this and more....back then it was almost as if he had very conclusive evidence that this day was to come...
To think that even something like this happens to players on a prominent team like KT, worries me. This just sucks on so many levels, Life is for me the greatest of all time and now he becomes this name we cannot even mention when discussing Starcraft.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
Uh? I mean I like Life a lot, but : (1) I'm not expert in Law, don't get me wrong, but technically isn't "losing on purpose" (so, only your "First") considered as "matchfixing", since you are intentionally affecting the outcome of a game instead of playing to your full capacities? (2) How can you assess that Life is innocent out of thin air? I mean I can understand the bit about a good lawyer, but how do you think you know for sure that he's innocent?
Well, technically, depends on the exact redaction of the norm that punishes the match-fix, but every crime requires the will of the agent to commit the said crime. So, in the match-fix case, the prosecutor is obliged to prove that the match throwed was intentional.
About Life being innocent, he was accused of a crime, not being declared guilty. Thus, he is innocent unless a tribunal declares him guilty.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
Welcome in the first stage of getting over it: Denial
On April 21 2016 21:48 ejozl wrote: To think that even something like this happens to players on a prominent team like KT, worries me. This just sucks on so many levels, Life is for me the greatest of all time and now he becomes this name we cannot even mention when discussing Starcraft.
KT had a player involved in the matchfixing scandal in BW, as did other prominent teams like CJ and STX. It's nothing new sadly. Just a shame Life had to drag Afreeca down with him by initiating that trade that cost them Leenock.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
Uh? I mean I like Life a lot, but : (1) I'm not expert in Law, don't get me wrong, but technically isn't "losing on purpose" (so, only your "First") considered as "matchfixing", since you are intentionally affecting the outcome of a game instead of playing to your full capacities? (2) How can you assess that Life is innocent out of thin air? I mean I can understand the bit about a good lawyer, but how do you think you know for sure that he's innocent?
Well, technically, depends on the exact redaction of the norm that punishes the match-fix, but every crime requires the will of the agent to commit the said crime. So, in the match-fix case, the prosecutor is obliged to prove that the match throwed was intentional.
About Life being innocent, he was accused of a crime, not being declared guilty. Thus, he is innocent unless a tribunal declares him guilty.
Ah ok, I thought you were assessing that he is innocent in an absolute sense.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
Reading about such prominent players match fixing I regret I followed SC2 and I'm happy I don't do anymore - would be even more heart broken. I wonder if Life match fixing is similar to sAviOr match fixing in SC:BW (perhaps a bit different as we knew about sAviOr when following Life but sAviOr was first).
In retrospect the Life vs Dream game looks pretty blatant, losing drones, lings and a queen like that while there's nothing else to do. As for the vs Terminator games, I think it's the first game, as you can see his breathing is identical to vs Dream while being different from vs Terminator G3.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
Yup, but the first part stays valid. Unless Korea use different system they need to prove that Life lost on purpose. Though I have seen some cases where indirect proofs were enough.* So it may be enough if those 2 backers(?) testify against Life.
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
Yup, but the first part stays valid. Unless Korea use different system they need to prove that Life lost on purpose. Though I have seen some cases where indirect proofs were enough.* So it may be enough if those 2 backers(?) testify against Life.
Hell, even some cases in US with death penalty had direct proofs and only DNA tests provided the opposite result.
Maybe they only investigated Life to begin with because Enough, who was also involved during the PRIME case, decided to cooperate to improve his own situation. In that case there'd be an additional testimony.
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
There would not be a korean scene in that case. Problem is that gambling is huge in Korea since it's forbidden afaik?
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
I don't know the exact redaction of the offence in the SK law. But I can assure you that there are two types of criminal offences: the ones that requires an actual result, attached to the offence, and the ones that don't. Example of the first one is the murder; example of the second one is the rape.
In the match-fix offence, there should be a result, because gambling is illegal in Korea. Thus, you can't tipify an offence that damages an illegal act such as gambling. That's why I think that the prosecutor must prove the damage to the legal scene in the match-fix offence.
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
Ban for life can be argued for. But stripped of all their prize money? Why? At most, you can strip them of the prize money they won in the competitions they cheated in. Their matchfixing didn't make them win tournaments, so there's no reason to take back what they rightfully earned ; and besides, if you consider that their actions caused important financial damages to KeSPA and the scene, then that's to be resolved in court (and good luck with that), not by a unilateral KeSPA ruling.
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
I hope they won't forget to take down his banner for his WCS 2014 win at BlizzCon this year
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
Of course they shouldn't lose all of their prize money, that's absurd. Length of punishment... Well it's mostly based on how much it matters to you, isn't it?
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
Agree with this. Of course he has done a huge mistake but he's only 19 and it's very tempting to take those amounts of money for losing a few games. I think he'd deserve a 2nd chance but of course that's not gonna happen.
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
Good luck with proving the damage they done. Mostly because they are not playing for months now and the result isn't in direct response with their actions but mostly with the action of prosecutor who made the statement
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
I don't know the exact redaction of the offence in the SK law. But I can assure you that there are two types of criminal offences: the ones that requires an actual result, attached to the offence, and the ones that don't. Example of the first one is the murder; example of the second one is the rape.
In the match-fix offence, there should be a result, because gambling is illegal in Korea. Thus, you can't tipify an offence that damages an illegal act such as gambling. That's why I think that the prosecutor must prove the damage to the legal scene in the match-fix offence.
I see where you're going with this, but I don't agree with the train of thought. What you're saying is basically that if I wanted to lose a specific match, and did so, and received money for it from a financial backer, as long as you can't prove that it damaged the scene, this could not be considered match fixing. That sounds ludicrous if you think about it.
Damaging the scene is such an unspecific terminology that, if it were required for match fixing charges, a good lawyer could get their client out of there easy.
On April 21 2016 22:21 ejozl wrote: Btw it's pretty crazy Life won both the bo5's where he intentionally lost a match. Having this on your mind must blow your mentality.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
I don't know the exact redaction of the offence in the SK law. But I can assure you that there are two types of criminal offences: the ones that requires an actual result, attached to the offence, and the ones that don't. Example of the first one is the murder; example of the second one is the rape.
In the match-fix offence, there should be a result, because gambling is illegal in Korea. Thus, you can't tipify an offence that damages an illegal act such as gambling. That's why I think that the prosecutor must prove the damage to the legal scene in the match-fix offence.
I see where you're going with this, but I don't agree with the train of thought. What you're saying is basically that if I wanted to lose a specific match, and did so, and received money for it from a financial backer, as long as you can't prove that it damaged the scene, this could not be considered match fixing. That sounds ludicrous if you think about it.
Damaging the scene is such an unspecific terminology that, if it were required for match fixing charges, a good lawyer could get their client out of there easy.
Absolutely, you dont have to prove third parties damage in order to convict for match fixing, that is pretty illogical.
On April 21 2016 22:31 Thalandros wrote: Fuuuuuuck. I'll still never 100% believe Life did this willingly and without pressure from anyone else.
Does anyone know what the likely punishment is for this in terms of any prison time? I know he's kind of fucked career wise.
Probably in line with everyone else ever convicted, a huge fine and then suspended jail time (meaning unless he commits another crime in the time of the suspension, he'll stay a free man). Possibly some hours of social service like sAviOr.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
A player loosing matches on purpose because he's not wining anything anymore, I understand. I mean if you're not very good for whatever reason, I can understand you'd accept loosing once more just to get sweet dosh. But if you're a player as dominant as Life, throwing away your credibility and let all your skill go to waste is a fucking disgrace. I'd like KR justice to be as severe as possible in the Life case.
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
imagine Obama made USA into a totalitarian state that declared war on Europe and they didn't take away his peace Nobel prize
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
imagine Obama made USA into a totalitarian state that declared war on Europe and they didn't take away his peace Nobel prize
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
I think that reasoning would be correct if he had committed a crime that does not relate to esports in any way. If someone for example holds a Nobel prize for efforts towards world peace and later on he commits a war crime or something they should still have it? I guess not.
Where was life's parents? Where was his team / coaches? How does such a high profile player get involved in these things without those closest to him knowing about it? I thought the 'kespa system' was supposed to keep these players in check 24/7? It appears that sc2 is 100x more fragile than we thought. If blizzard were to abandon it (and they probably will sooner or later), the pro scene is going to be nothing but bunch of low money basetrade tournaments forever and ever and ever amen (shudder).
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
imagine Obama made USA into a totalitarian state that declared war on Europe and they didn't take away his peace Nobel prize
The ramifications of those actions and the ones of the match fixing players make any kind of comparison impossible. Besides, we all know that Obama's peace prize was ballocks. It should be taken away either way.
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
I think that reasoning would be correct if he had committed a crime that does not relate to esports in any way.
And what if the person from my example faked some study reults? Would that somehow lessen his/hers revolutionary contribution to science and mankind? I think not.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
wut.
No.
If Life received money from people involved matchfixing don't think they can throw statements LIFE RECEIVED 35 000 000 WON if prosecutor has no proof so that pretty much seals First, 2nd and 3rd. Effectively damaged e-sports scene? wtf?
If he was forced to do it, we don't know. Its possible but I wouldn't bet on it (lmaoo)
Nothing in this case rings Life is innocent.
As much as I would love to see Life competing again Its not likely. at. all.
On April 21 2016 22:45 HugoBallzak wrote: Where was life's parents? Where was his team / coaches? How does such a high profile player get involved in these things without those closest to him knowing about it? I thought the 'kespa system' was supposed to keep these players in check 24/7? It appears that sc2 is 100x more fragile than we thought. If blizzard were to abandon it (and they probably will sooner or later), the pro scene is going to be nothing but bunch of low money basetrade tournaments forever and ever and ever amen (shudder).
Matchfixing happens everywhere not just sc2. Kespa is strict but not some god above.
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
I think that reasoning would be correct if he had committed a crime that does not relate to esports in any way.
And what if the person from my example faked some study reults? Would that somehow lessen his/hers revolutionary contribution to science and mankind? I think not.
I updated my post, I think it kind of connects to your argument.
On April 21 2016 21:33 sd_andeh wrote: The mere fact that throwing matches pays 7 times more than WINNING the entire tournament is a huge problem. This is likely not an isolated incident.
Well it's a lot like how it's much more profitable to run drug cartles than it is to get a real job. Play fairly and the other guys who cheat will still do better.
Illegal activity is illegal for a reason and similary the profits from doing illegal activity in the first place largely outweigh what can be done legally.
Blame governments who let this amount of illegal activity take place in the first place, when it's their role to prevent it from happening. Then there's "legal illegal" which is shit like Panama papers or huge conglomerates which are above the law and which view legal expenses in the same way was they would view energy or rent expenses.
If illegal activity were 0 or close to it, then people who follow the law in the first place would all be much better off, since you don't have all the dirty money circulating around in the first place.
So don't blame Kespa, blame the criminals who run that shit in the first place and blame the (probably corrupt) fucks in the Korean government who let it happen.
That's where the root of match-fixing being a problem is. People who abide the law are forced to carry the weight of the economic repercussions illegal activities entail in the first place.
On April 21 2016 22:34 sharkie wrote: The sad thing about this all is that there are almost very likely more matchfixing players still active and we will never for sure.
Anyone believing these two being the only ones is living in a dream world.
On April 21 2016 21:33 sd_andeh wrote: The mere fact that throwing matches pays 7 times more than WINNING the entire tournament is a huge problem. This is likely not an isolated incident.
this is also true for other competitive events getting fixed. the fraudsters go right after the lowest paid guys to influence them to alter the outcome of a match.
i think matchfixing is at epidemic levels in SC2.
its amazing how the general public beliefs about matchfixing have changed since the publishing of the book "The Fix" by Declan Hill. He went from being labelled "a crazy fake moon landing conspiracy theorist" to "brave investigative journalist" in 2 years. Giant sports organizations went way out of their way to discredit him and make up stories about the guy. Turns out he was right all along.
On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote: Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match. Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match. Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money. And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
wut.
No.
If Life received money from people involved matchfixing don't think they can throw statements LIFE RECEIVED 35 000 000 WON if prosecutor has no proof so that pretty much seals First, 2nd and 3rd. Effectively damaged e-sports scene? wtf?
If he was forced to do it, we don't know. Its possible but I wouldn't bet on it (lmaoo)
Nothing in this case rings Life is innocent.
As much as I would love to see Life competing again Its not likely. at. all.
On April 21 2016 22:45 HugoBallzak wrote: Where was life's parents? Where was his team / coaches? How does such a high profile player get involved in these things without those closest to him knowing about it? I thought the 'kespa system' was supposed to keep these players in check 24/7? It appears that sc2 is 100x more fragile than we thought. If blizzard were to abandon it (and they probably will sooner or later), the pro scene is going to be nothing but bunch of low money basetrade tournaments forever and ever and ever amen (shudder).
Matchfixing happens everywhere not just sc2. Kespa is strict but not some god above.
Giving someone money isn't illegal, you need to prove what he's accused for. That's the root of legal system. You cannot just say - well, we cannot prove he lost on purpose or he was payed to lost, but hey, he received money, he had to do something!!! What will come next, exorcism because he is obviously possessed?
And second thing - KeSPA does nothing and doesn't care unless some shit happens. As it looks their prevention is to make the life of Yoda and B4 as miserable as they can.
On April 21 2016 22:58 Powermoo wrote: Bbyong won his match against DRGLing though. I don't understand being paid to throw 1 map?
Same goes for Life... you pay him to throw one map and thats it. Then you go to illegal betting sites and bet on "life will lose map 2 against XY". You do not bet on the complete set.
And for the proving: You got the prove of the money. You can have the communication notes by both partys (short messages, whatsapps, Emails, chats, ... ), you can have the word of the bookers, you can have other notes. Maybe Life even confessed what he did.
Its not too hard to find out about matchfixing, because all matchfixers we know have been dump: Communicating in a way that authorities could read it, money transfers that have been watched, confession of the players, confession of the bookers.
On April 21 2016 15:15 Waxangel wrote:According to Yonhap news (source), Life was sentenced in January, receiving a sentence of eighteen months in prison, suspended by three years. A suspended sentence in Korea is similar to pre-emptive probation, with the convicted parties not required to their original sentence should they pass the probationary period without infractions. Life was also fined 70,000,000 won, the sum of his compensation for match-fixing.
Life's sentencing is in line with the sentencing from the PRIME match fixing scandal, the Changwon Prosecutor's Office first investigation into match-fixing. Yonhap news reports that prosecutors have appealed the sentencing for being inappropriately lenient.
Bbyong has also been charged with obstruction of business and receiving bribes, but has yet to receive sentencing.
On April 21 2016 22:57 Lunareste wrote: I mean, I guess I'll be the one to ask the truly important question here.
Can we give Mvp the G5L retroactively?
No.
maybe MVP knew his injuries were getting too bad and he knew he was going to leave the scene... and so just like any old pro wrestling champion he passed the torch and went out on his back.
On April 21 2016 15:15 Waxangel wrote:According to Yonhap news (source), Life was sentenced in January, receiving a sentence of eighteen months in prison, suspended by three years. A suspended sentence in Korea is similar to pre-emptive probation, with the convicted parties not required to their original sentence should they pass the probationary period without infractions. Life was also fined 70,000,000 won, the sum of his compensation for match-fixing.
Life's sentencing is in line with the sentencing from the PRIME match fixing scandal, the Changwon Prosecutor's Office first investigation into match-fixing. Yonhap news reports that prosecutors have appealed the sentencing for being inappropriately lenient.
Bbyong has also been charged with obstruction of business and receiving bribes, but has yet to receive sentencing.
This is really, really sad. Life's run at 2014 Blizzcon, where I started cheering for him in the Ro16, was one of my all-time favorite SC2 tournaments. No one--and I mean no one, either in BW or SC2--ever played like he did.
I've been belabouring on this since the BW match-fixing scandal, but this is, in small part, once again an indictment of the Kespa system. Taking teenagers, isolating them almost completely, having them play videogames constantly, and then giving them the (for most very remote) possibility of earning hundreds of thousands of dollars and the strains that come with it, plus the temptations of earning quick money through match-fixing...there are some problems there, obviously.
Life is hardly a victim here, but Stork and BoxeR have both been saying this quite literally for years, with little effect: there really, really needs to be a better support system for progamers, with actual representation, more investment in personal development for these kids, contact between teams, sense of common purpose, and so on.
bad news, but expected ones. I'm disappointed that these kids are capable of accepting match-fixing (and the money ofc) because one guy says "all pros are doing the same, why aren't you?"
A sad day for Starcraft and eSports. I hope this all gets resolved and will hopefully deter future match fixing. The players should know better... As far as I know KESPA does warn players about match fixing and actually has held education courses for them in this respect since the old Saviour scandal back with BW. It's a shame some players, especially someone who is one of the greatest like Life had fallen this way. He's given in to greed and his desire to make quick and easy money probably made him fall prey to the evil manipulators trying to profit off that.
On April 21 2016 23:49 Hurricaned wrote: Good news is that if Life can't play in tournaments anymore he might become a full time streamer
not on afreeca tho and I doubt he'd have enough apologists to help him get a sub button on twitch, so where is he going to make the money from streaming?
On April 21 2016 23:49 Hurricaned wrote: Good news is that if Life can't play in tournaments anymore he might become a full time streamer
not on afreeca tho and I doubt he'd have enough apologists to help him get a sub button on twitch, so where is he going to make the money from streaming?
tbh i dont think he'll really want to stream, but maybe that's just how i would feel were i in his position
On April 21 2016 23:49 Hurricaned wrote: Good news is that if Life can't play in tournaments anymore he might become a full time streamer
not on afreeca tho and I doubt he'd have enough apologists to help him get a sub button on twitch, so where is he going to make the money from streaming?
tbh i dont think he'll really want to stream, but maybe that's just how i would feel were i in his position
savior streamed as well till last year. I guess afreeca doesn't allow it anymore?
On April 21 2016 23:49 Hurricaned wrote: Good news is that if Life can't play in tournaments anymore he might become a full time streamer
not on afreeca tho and I doubt he'd have enough apologists to help him get a sub button on twitch, so where is he going to make the money from streaming?
tbh i dont think he'll really want to stream, but maybe that's just how i would feel were i in his position
savior streamed as well till last year. I guess afreeca doesn't allow it anymore?
I'm pretty sure after the PRIME scandal, KeSPA talked Afreeca into cooperating and not letting known match fixers stream anymore (including BW ones), and I think they were also in agreement with Twitch and Azubu back then.
So his best bet if he was to try would probably be Chinese streaming services.
Life is hardly a victim here, but Stork and BoxeR have both been saying this quite literally for years, with little effect: there really, really needs to be a better support system for progamers, with actual representation, more investment in personal development for these kids, contact between teams, sense of common purpose, and so on.
but if you don't raise them to be literally game palying machines how will you get that sweet reputation for being the best in the world?
On April 21 2016 23:49 Hurricaned wrote: Good news is that if Life can't play in tournaments anymore he might become a full time streamer
not on afreeca tho and I doubt he'd have enough apologists to help him get a sub button on twitch, so where is he going to make the money from streaming?
tbh i dont think he'll really want to stream, but maybe that's just how i would feel were i in his position
savior streamed as well till last year. I guess afreeca doesn't allow it anymore?
he deleted his account last august and after that KeSPA demanded afreeca to ban all matchfixers from streaming on their platfrom, they refused at first but then after public outcry they changed their mind.
also whats the point in streaming SC2 on afreeca, you'd get less viewers than Rush has atm
On April 21 2016 23:49 Hurricaned wrote: Good news is that if Life can't play in tournaments anymore he might become a full time streamer
not on afreeca tho and I doubt he'd have enough apologists to help him get a sub button on twitch, so where is he going to make the money from streaming?
tbh i dont think he'll really want to stream, but maybe that's just how i would feel were i in his position
savior streamed as well till last year. I guess afreeca doesn't allow it anymore?
he deleted his account last august and after that KeSPA demanded afreeca to ban all matchfixers from streaming on their platfrom, they refused at first but then after public outcry they changed their mind.
also whats the point in streaming SC2 on afreeca, you'd get less viewers than Rush has atm
I see. Yeah sure not saying Life streaming sc2 would have been a good idea.
It's too bad, LOTV would need another zerg star, even if Dark tries to become it -.-
On April 22 2016 00:20 astroorion wrote: Anyone know what the likely punishment will be, aside from a progamer license ban?
According to an earlier post in the thread he got 18 months of suspended jailtime (basically probation) and a fine equal to the money he earned from matchfixing.
On April 22 2016 00:20 astroorion wrote: Anyone know what the likely punishment will be, aside from a progamer license ban?
According to an earlier post in the thread he got 18 months of suspended jailtime (basically probation) and a fine equal to the money he earned from matchfixing.
Thats right, wax confirmed, he is official guilty, he is already punished with 18 month jailtime on a 3 year probation and 70.000.000 won fine.
The perverse lesson from this is if you gonna bet, safer to bet on the Korean scene than foreigners. You know the Korean authorities take this shite at least semi-seriously, shown by actual arrests and convictions. Where are the foreigner ones?
Further, I think Life is an exemption rather than the rule. Usually match-fixers don't go after the very best player, they may go after tier 1 people but usually not the best of the best. Second, I think the normal person vulnerable is lower tiers because the lure of money is harder to resist. In short, I think as SC2 declines, and with it viewership and money from tournaments, we may get more match-fixing. Sad.
who is the 1 individual "at large" ? i have an idea for a new movie... "The Fugitive Progamer" its too bad Harrison Ford is way too old to play the part.
On April 22 2016 00:31 Whois wrote: The perverse lesson from this is if you gonna bet, safer to bet on the Korean scene than foreigners. You know the Korean authorities take this shite at least semi-seriously, shown by actual arrests and convictions. Where are the foreigner ones? ... ... I think the normal person vulnerable is lower tiers because the lure of money is harder to resist. In short, I think as SC2 declines, and with it viewership and money from tournaments, we may get more match-fixing. Sad.
this is a pessimistic viewpoint but its also probably right.
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
there was no chance of life ever being #1 with me around. none.
If I was Life, I would leave Korea (it's a small country where everyone knows each other pretty much in Seoul), and move to Europe or something to start my life over. Well..maybe he would run into people who knows him in Europe, thanks to European fans via TL lol.
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
Stuchius list was made before life made the blizzcon finals. He's probably #1 GOAT now. Not for stuchio of course but I think most people would rate life's achievements higher than mvp's
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
Stuchius list was made before life made the blizzcon finals. He's probably #1 GOAT now. Not for stuchio of course but I think most people would rate life's achievements higher than mvp's
life is nowhere near goat even without this scandal
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
Stuchius list was made before life made the blizzcon finals. He's probably #1 GOAT now. Not for stuchio of course but I think most people would rate life's achievements higher than mvp's
Don't think there's a point in hiding it. I updated the GOAT list after Blizzcon ended and Life wasn't #1.
Unfortunate end to his career. While I agree that the nature of how the Korean scene works can foster match fixing with how tough and unforgiving it is, I feel least bad for life. He didn't need to match fix at all, not only was he winning tournaments, but I would imagine he was one of the higher earning players salary wise(just a guess). What a sad waste of talent.
On April 22 2016 00:45 parkufarku wrote: If I was Life, I would leave Korea (it's a small country where everyone knows each other pretty much in Seoul), and move to Europe or something to start my life over. Well..maybe he would run into people who knows him in Europe, thanks to European fans via TL lol.
Erm, South Korea has a population of over 50 million
But even if it was just 10; I don't think everyone would know each other than either heh
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
Stuchius list was made before life made the blizzcon finals. He's probably #1 GOAT now. Not for stuchio of course but I think most people would rate life's achievements higher than mvp's
Don't think there's a point in hiding it. I updated the GOAT list after Blizzcon ended and Life wasn't #1.
Let's be real, there is no way anyone will ever beat Mvp unless he plays with feet only because he has no arms or something like that
On April 22 2016 00:45 parkufarku wrote: If I was Life, I would leave Korea (it's a small country where everyone knows each other pretty much in Seoul), and move to Europe or something to start my life over. Well..maybe he would run into people who knows him in Europe, thanks to European fans via TL lol.
Lol, I can't belive you think everyone in south korea know Life.
On April 22 2016 00:45 parkufarku wrote: If I was Life, I would leave Korea (it's a small country where everyone knows each other pretty much in Seoul), and move to Europe or something to start my life over.
Just lol, 10 million people in 1 city and everyone knows each other, writing Christmas cards must take forever....
With regards Life's games, all I can say is that whilst he was good to watch with a unique style at times, when he played for KT in Proleague he was utter garbage most of the time and a real let down. Let's talk about these games shall we because they looked rather suspect when you compare those performances to how he was doing in the individual leagues at the time.
On April 22 2016 00:45 parkufarku wrote: If I was Life, I would leave Korea (it's a small country where everyone knows each other pretty much in Seoul), and move to Europe or something to start my life over. Well..maybe he would run into people who knows him in Europe, thanks to European fans via TL lol.
Erm, South Korea has a population of over 50 million
But even if it was just 10; I don't think everyone would know each other than either heh
A lot of Korean population are overseas..Korea is a small country because everything is centered around Seoul. A lot of people watch the same TV shows, go to the same amusement parks, go out in similar bars. Plus, Starcraft is more recognized there than other countries.
Ok just fine them and make a suspension for couple years, this should be enough. Banning players for Life is stupid. In mma steroid users gets one year suspension. You have to realize that you take away his ability to work and after two years game will change 360, and there will be no same Life again so...
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
Stuchius list was made before life made the blizzcon finals. He's probably #1 GOAT now. Not for stuchio of course but I think most people would rate life's achievements higher than mvp's
Don't think there's a point in hiding it. I updated the GOAT list after Blizzcon ended and Life wasn't #1.
Let's be real, there is no way anyone will ever beat Mvp unless he plays with feet only because he has no arms or something like that
Well maybe a person could have if he didn't matchfix and end his career.
Make gambling legal, tax the profits. Ensure that sports men and women get pension deals for their (young) retirement which they are excluded from if they cheat. Or, you know... something, because this is going to keep happening.
It's sad but you obviously ban cheats for life unless there are some seriously extenuating circumstances. Removal of prize money outside of competitions that cheats have cheated in a strange thing to ask for.
On April 22 2016 00:41 fezvez wrote: Once again, I am just so glad that Life wasn't awarded the #1 GOAT by Stuchiu, but would have to win a tiny bit more to steal the spot.
This will obviously never happen
Stuchius list was made before life made the blizzcon finals. He's probably #1 GOAT now. Not for stuchio of course but I think most people would rate life's achievements higher than mvp's
Don't think there's a point in hiding it. I updated the GOAT list after Blizzcon ended and Life wasn't #1.
Let's be real, there is no way anyone will ever beat Mvp unless he plays with feet only because he has no arms or something like that
Well maybe a person could have if he didn't matchfix and end his career.
I think you can already make a case for Life. His matchfixing imo shouldn't count against him (which you didn't say, but other will)
70,000,000. Thats a lot of money. I can imagine how hard that would be to say no to that. No matter whether you take the money or not you are going to kick yourself either way.
On April 22 2016 02:08 Dapper_Cad wrote: Make gambling legal, tax the profits. Ensure that sports men and women get pension deals for their (young) retirement which they are excluded from if they cheat. Or, you know... something, because this is going to keep happening.
It's sad but you obviously ban cheats for life unless there are some seriously extenuating circumstances. Removal of prize money outside of competitions that cheats have cheated in a strange thing to ask for.
Regardless of whether gambling/ sports betting is legal or illegal, the competitors still shouldn't be fixing/ throwing matches though.
On April 22 2016 02:24 RoomOfMush wrote: 70,000,000. Thats a lot of money. I can imagine how hard that would be to say no to that. No matter whether you take the money or not you are going to kick yourself either way.
At one point your moral simply has to kick in, that's how life works. (pun not intended)
On April 22 2016 02:24 RoomOfMush wrote: 70,000,000. Thats a lot of money. I can imagine how hard that would be to say no to that. No matter whether you take the money or not you are going to kick yourself either way.
At one point your moral simply has to kick in, that's how life works. (pun not intended)
Agreed. That's how life works, but not how Life works
On April 22 2016 02:27 UberNuB wrote: Can somebody explain how Life was paid to lose two matches, but actually won both of them? Seems like he took the money without match fixing.
This is a heavy blow to CJ. I don't think they're going to recover from this anytime soon. Their roster is already small, and they depended a lot on Bbyong to help them keep a decent record, without him, CJ is going to wallow in mediocrity for a while.
nooooooooooooooooooooo BBYOOOOOOOOOOOONG WHY YOU SO DUM.. OMFG why does every creative mech terran on sc2 in the end becomes match fixer? I guess it has smth with sc2 being unfriendly to creative mech terrans which ends up in them having no money
he was paid to lose individual games but not the entire series. is it possible he only agreed to lose individual games against players he knew he could totally destroy. So that he knew he could get the payoff from the match-fixer while not harming his Sc2 eSports income?
On April 22 2016 03:55 LuckyGnomTV wrote: nooooooooooooooooooooo BBYOOOOOOOOOOOONG WHY YOU SO DUM.. OMFG why does every creative mech terran on sc2 in the end becomes match fixer? I guess it has smth with sc2 being unfriendly to creative mech terrans which ends up in them having no money
... or some just accuse everyone else they come up against on ladder, funny as f... streams tho, god bless the Mech-king.
Serious bit: Mech must be soooooo frustrating to play. So er... blame balance for this???
This is sad. And I fear it's only the beginning, especially now with WCS 2016 cutting off Koreans chances of doing much if they don't qualify for GSL/SSL. 30k compared to a possible zero for 6 months doesn't look all that bad...
On April 22 2016 03:53 20-Minute-Jackal wrote: This is a heavy blow to CJ. I don't think they're going to recover from this anytime soon. Their roster is already small, and they depended a lot on Bbyong to help them keep a decent record, without him, CJ is going to wallow in mediocrity for a while.
actually pretty sure this could mean the end of CJ in SC2 as I don't think the company wants to survive a 2nd matchfixing. :/ Coach Cho is gone as well
Why the fuck would Life or Bbyong match fix AFTER Prime was already caught. If they really thought that they could get away with it, then I would predict that match fixing is much more prevalent than just Prime and these two. Perhaps there are those who fixed and have not been caught yet.
On April 22 2016 04:46 Brutaxilos wrote: Why the fuck would Life or Bbyong match fix AFTER Prime was already caught. If they really thought that they could get away with it, then I would predict that match fixing is much more prevalent than just Prime and these two. Perhaps there are those who fixed and have not been caught yet.
On April 22 2016 04:46 Brutaxilos wrote: Why the fuck would Life or Bbyong match fix AFTER Prime was already caught. If they really thought that they could get away with it, then I would predict that match fixing is much more prevalent than just Prime and these two. Perhaps there are those who fixed and have not been caught yet.
Life match fixed before Prime was caught.
Sorry, misread that. Why the fuck would Bbyong match fix then. What an idiot.
Life had everything, and also the historical issue with Savior, and even then, even getting the nearest example of a player like himself being succesful and ruining his own carreer with match fixing... he decided to go the same way... so sad.
On April 22 2016 04:46 Brutaxilos wrote: Why the fuck would Life or Bbyong match fix AFTER Prime was already caught. If they really thought that they could get away with it, then I would predict that match fixing is much more prevalent than just Prime and these two. Perhaps there are those who fixed and have not been caught yet.
Life match fixed before Prime was caught.
Sorry, misread that. Why the fuck would Bbyong match fix then. What an idiot.
25k to throw one map in GSL Code A, pretty tempting when the prize for WINNING GSL is only 32k
On April 22 2016 04:46 Brutaxilos wrote: Why the fuck would Life or Bbyong match fix AFTER Prime was already caught. If they really thought that they could get away with it, then I would predict that match fixing is much more prevalent than just Prime and these two. Perhaps there are those who fixed and have not been caught yet.
Life match fixed before Prime was caught.
Sorry, misread that. Why the fuck would Bbyong match fix then. What an idiot.
25k to throw one map in GSL Code A, pretty tempting when the prize for WINNING GSL is only 32k
25K but a (supposedly) near certainty of getting caught. The only variable here is just how likely it is to get caught. Which makes me think that there are likely many more progamers active who have match fixed and gotten away with it.
So this at least finally reveals which one of YoDa's matches in 2015 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S on May 13 was fixed: The original report in the YoDa/BBoongBBoong/Gerrard case left it open, it could have been either versus Symbol or Bbyong. This report mentions that they charge Enough for betting on a match in that tournament on the same day when he knew that it was fixed. They call it "P" vs "N". Now we know that "N" is Bbyong, so "P" has to be YoDa. And apparently Bbyong, who later fixed, won by beating a player who lost on purpose.
It only took two games for the legacy of the second greatest player to ever touch SC2 to be destroyed...
Talk about Savior 2.0.
I don't think there's anyone who can fill his shoes...not even Dark.
>> Honestly I think this might mark the final nail in the coffin for SC2 in Korea...especially considering how bad things went following the...other incident...
On April 22 2016 04:46 Brutaxilos wrote: Why the fuck would Life or Bbyong match fix AFTER Prime was already caught. If they really thought that they could get away with it, then I would predict that match fixing is much more prevalent than just Prime and these two. Perhaps there are those who fixed and have not been caught yet.
Life match fixed before Prime was caught.
Sorry, misread that. Why the fuck would Bbyong match fix then. What an idiot.
25k to throw one map in GSL Code A, pretty tempting when the prize for WINNING GSL is only 32k
25K but a (supposedly) near certainty of getting caught. The only variable here is just how likely it is to get caught. Which makes me think that there are likely many more progamers active who have match fixed and gotten away with it.
Near certainty of getting caught? We don't know if the fact that four players so far have been caught is a 100% caught/cheated ratio or if it's a 10% ratio... I honestly doubt organized crime around matchfixing would have such huge pays for fixing one game if it was only restricted to half a dozen players
Man, that's a tough pill to swallow. Life was the best SC2 player of all time (in my opinion) and now he's just... gone. Somehow, I'm not even angry at him, just sad. I hope he learns from this to make better moral choices in whatever he does in the future. As for the guys that coerced him into match fixing, fuck them. I hope the prosecutors throw the book at them. (No, I'm not absolving Life of guilt, I just sympathize with him more than his manipulators).
On April 22 2016 08:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: So....does TaeJa move to #2 on GOAT list?
Next up, Mvp erased from the GOAT list because a man with a broken neck clearly can't be a GOAT. TaeJa #1 GOAT, TL writers get all wet, Liquid Dream realized.
Life still has almost half a million dollars in prize money and that's not including team salary. He doesn't even have to make investments, he could just stash it all in a savings account with a decent interest rate and retire at the age of 19. Though he'd have to settle for a somewhat cheap life if he did that.
My sig makes me sick and sad at the same time. I like both Zest and Life. But they got in the way of TaeJa. So I'm conflicted.
While this issue is a sad thing to read, Life made his bed. He now lies in it. On the stage or online, he played damn good games and was amazing to watch. His skill carried him far. But it seems his greed, naiveté or whatever got the best of him. Sad, but SC2 and eSports in general will hopefully be better for this.
Life has won more in a harder era. The only argument for Mvp is that he has won more GSLs but I consider a blizzcon to be at least equal if not more impressive than a GSL. Also stating that life isn't anywhere near GOAT is just wrong and biased. Even if you think mvp is #1, life would still be extremely close no discussion on that.
On April 22 2016 09:25 lichter wrote: people don't understand the difference between "greatest" and "best". life was the best. he was never close to being the greatest.
On April 22 2016 09:25 lichter wrote: people don't understand the difference between "greatest" and "best". life was the best. he was never close to being the greatest.
On what basis? Not even close? I really would like to see your definition then
On April 22 2016 09:37 Charoisaur wrote: There should be a poll on sc2 goat. Would give the most objective results. When single people make lists it will always be biased.
If that's what you believe, then you'd need to take a poll first to see if a player should be able to be voted on if they were caught matchfixing as being a matchfixer may or may not be a quality people consider in GOAT.
On April 22 2016 08:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: So....does TaeJa move to #2 on GOAT list?
I think Life will still be acknowledged as the GOAT despite being reviled as a matchfixer. Which makes this even sadder
life was never anywhere near goat even without being a matchfixer
Repeating this over and over again doesn't make it true That's not how this stuff works lichter^^
Strange that's what I'd have said to people who kept saying Life was #1.
Hehe. I never did a full research myself (with my priorities in mind) so it's largely gut feeling at this point, but i am 100% certain Mvp wouldn't be number one on my list because i think his era was simply not competitive enough to allow him to be the goat. Just like NaDa couldn't be GOAT in bw for the same reasoning if you ask me.
edit: That was actually a bad example, Nada's era was probably way more close in competitiveness to Flash's than Mvp's to after Kespa switch.
On April 22 2016 09:41 lichter wrote: well i am too lazy to argue this anymore since there's no point. life is now persona non grata
but yeah, not even close
Life's matchfixing shouldn't be a factor at all tbh, nothing to do with his achievements. People who argue this do this from an emotional standpoint imo, which is bad.
On April 22 2016 09:37 Charoisaur wrote: There should be a poll on sc2 goat. Would give the most objective results. When single people make lists it will always be biased.
If that's what you believe, then you'd need to take a poll first to see if a player should be able to be voted on if they were caught matchfixing as being a matchfixer may or may not be a quality people consider in GOAT.
Yeah probably pointless to make a poll now because many people just won't vote for life because he matchfixed.
On April 22 2016 09:37 Charoisaur wrote: There should be a poll on sc2 goat. Would give the most objective results. When single people make lists it will always be biased.
If that's what you believe, then you'd need to take a poll first to see if a player should be able to be voted on if they were caught matchfixing as being a matchfixer may or may not be a quality people consider in GOAT.
Yeah probably pointless to make a poll now because many people just won't vote for life because he matchfixed.
Always pointless to make a poll if anyone can vote =)
On April 22 2016 09:37 Charoisaur wrote: There should be a poll on sc2 goat. Would give the most objective results. When single people make lists it will always be biased.
If that's what you believe, then you'd need to take a poll first to see if a player should be able to be voted on if they were caught matchfixing as being a matchfixer may or may not be a quality people consider in GOAT.
Yeah probably pointless to make a poll now because many people just won't vote for life because he matchfixed.
Always pointless to make a poll if anyone can vote =)
Would still be interesting to know what the majority thinks.
On April 22 2016 09:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: Life's matchfixing shouldn't be a factor at all tbh, nothing to do with his achievements. People who argue this do this from an emotional standpoint imo, which is bad.
On April 22 2016 09:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: Life's matchfixing shouldn't be a factor at all tbh, nothing to do with his achievements. People who argue this do this from an emotional standpoint imo, which is bad.
one's story is part of greatness.
Greatness is completely subjective. I can say Has is the greatest player of all time because of his genius pylon wall and you can't disprove it. The only thing that can be somewhat objectively measured is the level of success a player had.
On April 22 2016 09:37 Charoisaur wrote: There should be a poll on sc2 goat. Would give the most objective results. When single people make lists it will always be biased.
If that's what you believe, then you'd need to take a poll first to see if a player should be able to be voted on if they were caught matchfixing as being a matchfixer may or may not be a quality people consider in GOAT.
Yeah probably pointless to make a poll now because many people just won't vote for life because he matchfixed.
If you believe voting would have given the most objective results for GOAT, then they would also give the most objective results for qualifications of GOAT.
On April 22 2016 09:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: Life's matchfixing shouldn't be a factor at all tbh, nothing to do with his achievements. People who argue this do this from an emotional standpoint imo, which is bad.
one's story is part of greatness.
We aren't valuing if he is the greatest person ever, we are valuing if he is the greatest sc2 player ever. He probably wouldn't get far in the first competition because of his matchfixing, the other one though...
On April 22 2016 08:57 Lazare1969 wrote: Life still has almost half a million dollars in prize money and that's not including team salary. He doesn't even have to make investments, he could just stash it all in a savings account with a decent interest rate and retire at the age of 19. Though he'd have to settle for a somewhat cheap life if he did that.
The grapevine says Life squandered most of his legitimate earnings on gambling, which probably made him desperate enough to match fix so he could get more money to gamble away, or payoff gambling debts.
On April 22 2016 08:57 Lazare1969 wrote: Life still has almost half a million dollars in prize money and that's not including team salary. He doesn't even have to make investments, he could just stash it all in a savings account with a decent interest rate and retire at the age of 19. Though he'd have to settle for a somewhat cheap life if he did that.
The grapevine says Life squandered most of his legitimate earnings on gambling, which probably made him desperate enough to match fix so he could get more money to gamble away, or payoff gambling debts.
So Life is basically SC2's version of a child celebrity... seems all awesome on the outside until a year or two passes and all the dark shit behind the scenes comes to light. (though a source for that sort of allegation would be nice)
Really makes me sad for eSports and SC2to read things like this. After knowing the 'truth' though, this helps to shed some light on Life's inconsistencies throughout his career.
On April 22 2016 09:25 Charoisaur wrote: Life has won more in a harder era. The only argument for Mvp is that he has won more GSLs but I consider a blizzcon to be at least equal if not more impressive than a GSL. Also stating that life isn't anywhere near GOAT is just wrong and biased. Even if you think mvp is #1, life would still be extremely close no discussion on that.
Jürgen > Life. Life is probably the better player of those two, but Mvp is the greater
If e-sports gambling is anything like sports gambling, there will be wagers on the winner of a series and also on the number of games that will be won or loss. And the sequence of those games. And any random permutation of events that is remotely possible in that game.
lol wow, I remember watching that live and rewatching it now.... Losing the 3 drones in the beginning to 1 reaper when he had enough money to make a spore each time. Then the way he just straight up fed lings to the helions.
lol wow, I remember watching that live and rewatching it now.... Losing the 3 drones in the beginning to 1 reaper when he had enough money to make a spore each time. Then the way he just straight up fed lings to the helions.
lol wow, I remember watching that live and rewatching it now.... Losing the 3 drones in the beginning to 1 reaper when he had enough money to make a spore each time. Then the way he just straight up fed lings to the helions.
Ill have to watch the game vs super next.
Terminator, not Super.
Dang you were too fast! haha
Watching the 2 games Life lost, do we know for sure which one it was? Echo or Iron Fortress?
Here's the links to both games for anyone else interested, guessing someone might've posted before but havent gone through all the pages. + Show Spoiler +
Edit - LoL, well after watching both games, I think it's safe to say it was Echo (first video, set2)... Loses 3rd and just leaves the game. 0 engagements.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote: You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
I agree with this to an extent. People saying that this shouldn't tarnish his accomplishments I think is just plain wrong. As good as you can be, you can never be both the best and a cheater. He was a player of tremendous skill, but any respect I had for him, despite his accomplishments, is long gone.
Yea, Life never can be the greatest. Being the greatest is more than just winning a lot, it is about your legacy. A legacy like Flash, or Jaedong or Mvp. Life's legacy is that he's a corrupt nitwit who doesn't respect his fans or the game that gave him his success. Not really the mark of greatness.
On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote: You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
I second this position, really well put and sums up my thoughts exactly! I'm just really heartbroken right now about G5L that Mvp never got because of Life. If Life didn't do this, then I would have been fine with it (as I have been up until now), one great player stepped down to make room for his successor, but now it's kinda feels wrong.
On April 22 2016 18:21 opisska wrote: On the contrary, Life is so great that he could throw games for money and still win. And calling them "cheaters" isn't exactly factually correct.
Are you trolling at this point, or just looking for more drama?
Of course it's cheating, don't make light of match-fixing or use dumb semantics to down-play the severity of the situation.
On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote: You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
I dunno man, I read a great article about saviOr hyping up his play and stuff and since I didn't follow BW, he seems like one of the greatest and no matter what he did, I'll hold him as someone who was able to "save" (lol) zerg in spite of the odds!
On April 22 2016 18:21 opisska wrote: On the contrary, Life is so great that he could throw games for money and still win. And calling them "cheaters" isn't exactly factually correct.
Are you trolling at this point, or just looking for more drama?
Of course it's cheating, don't make light of match-fixing or use dumb semantics to down-play the severity of the situation.
"Cheating" is when someone unfairly obtains an advantage in a game. How did anyone who throw a game obtain an advantage in SC2? Surely, they have "cheated" the bettors, but I have really already explained, why I don't care too much about those. As for SC2, they have only put themselves in a disadvantage. If I found a champion did achieve his titles by actual cheating (hacking, receiving extra information or even having opponents to match-fix in their favor), I would grab all my pitchforks and would support a swift removal of all their honors. But this is a very different situation. It seems reasonable to exclude them from further competition (if anything, than because of the bad taste), but everything they won, was won fairly, unless proven otherwise. And here we should note that Life won a lot.
You should finally comprehend that your attitude that match-fixing is severe is not a universal truth and that other viewpoints are possible. I am not going to stop "making light" of match-fixing and downplaying the "severity of the situation" just because you say so. You can't win in a discussion by saying that the other side of the argument should just shut up.
You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote: You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
I dunno man, I read a great article about saviOr hyping up his play and stuff and since I didn't follow BW, he seems like one of the greatest and no matter what he did, I'll hold him as someone who was able to "save" (lol) zerg in spite of the odds!
Well as far as I can tell, Savior is still at least still widely acknowledged as a bonjwa.
I think it's silly to deny Life his throne. It's like pretending an inconvenient part of history didn't happen. Just be mature enough to praise the amazing skill he demonstrated inside the game while also realizing the tragedy of who he became outside of it
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that.
Second, now you are just making arguments by putting pieces upon foundations you completely made up. What is "meaningful" and why is anyone obliged to follow your definition of it? Why do you get to decide for the "scene" what rights it has? Is there even anything like a singular "scene"? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions?
Finally, I really don't subscribe to the idea that there is more than skill to being a good player. In particular, I don't like when the game turns into a popularity contest. Maybe the "match-fixers" did things that make you don't like them, fine. But when it comes to the game itself, they did nothing but made the game harder for themselves.
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that.
Second, now you are just making arguments by putting pieces upon foundations you completely made up. What is "meaningful" and why is anyone obliged to follow your definition of it? Why do you get to decide for the "scene" what rights it has? Is there even anything like a singular "scene"? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions?
Finally, I really don't subscribe to the idea that there is more than skill to being a good player. In particular, I don't like when the game turns into a popularity contest. Maybe the "match-fixers" did things that make you don't like them, fine. But when it comes to the game itself, they did nothing but made the game harder for themselves.
Lol he didn't make the game harder for himself. You realize that if you matchfix you have far less pressure in every match because you don't actually care winning or losing, since some games will bring you a lot of money just losing. His legit opponents (not necessarily the ones he faced directly but the others in the tourneys) didn't have the safe net of "free" money.
On April 22 2016 19:34 OtherWorld wrote: I love how this thread derailed to the classic "Life GOAT or not?" debate
Blame lichter I read your stance on things btw and it kinda makes sense, i still don't buy into "by punishing these guys we also punish us" as a valid argument tbh. At leat not fully. Would need to think about it a little more though
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that.
Second, now you are just making arguments by putting pieces upon foundations you completely made up. What is "meaningful" and why is anyone obliged to follow your definition of it? Why do you get to decide for the "scene" what rights it has? Is there even anything like a singular "scene"? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions?
Finally, I really don't subscribe to the idea that there is more than skill to being a good player. In particular, I don't like when the game turns into a popularity contest. Maybe the "match-fixers" did things that make you don't like them, fine. But when it comes to the game itself, they did nothing but made the game harder for themselves.
They hurt the game's credibility. They hurt its position to attract sponsors. They hurt its ability to gain fans. They hurt its viability as an esport. You try to come across as such a savy dude who knows how stuff works, but the truth is that your stance of "match fixing is no big deal" shoots beyond naive and lands squarely into the delusional territory.
The GOAT list whilst a very nice read is only 1 man's opinion, nothing official, and even then Life was not considered GOAT. So how the hell are people who have clearly never even read the list saying he is GOAT??? Cheating little scum bag who could only ling all in. NEVER GOAT!!
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
I somewhat respectfully disagree. Being a good player is exactly that. Being a good sportsman, however, and a great role model for other players, is something different. If you want to make the distinction, then separate best player from greatest player. I see many people make that distinction, and it at least holds together. But technical skill is the fundamental part of playing a game, and it's irrational to deny that a player was good because X happened. People don't deny saviOr the same thing, and I think it would be absurd to deny that Life was a stellar player. An asshole, maybe, but that does not factor in.
People saying Life's achievements don't count anymore are incredibly close minded imo. But hey cannot say i am surprised to see that, savior still triggers people to no end.
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
I somewhat respectfully disagree. Being a good player is exactly that. Being a good sportsman, however, and a great role model for other players, is something different. If you want to make the distinction, then separate best player from greatest player. I see many people make that distinction, and it at least holds together. But technical skill is the fundamental part of playing a game, and it's irrational to deny that a player was good because X happened. People don't deny saviOr the same thing, and I think it would be absurd to deny that Life was a stellar player. An asshole, maybe, but that does not factor in.
Fair enough, we can make a distinction between best and greatest. It all boils down to what you think a player is made of: is it only his ability to play the game, or is it more than that? When I "deny" Life as a good player, I take more into account than just his in-game skill.
Well, discussing that aspect more would be just beating a dead horse; I'm sure that point I had in my head has come accross. It kind of comes down to the fact that if you damage the scene by fixing the match, you're damaging your own accomplishments, since without the scene in the first place, your accomplishments mean nothing.
Basically, a win when your opponent purposefully throws holds no value. Thus, by match-fixing, you are destroying the value of the competition. Those accomplishments are built upon the value of that competition; if that value is degraded (through match-fixing), then so are those accomplishments. I would rather have Life's or Bbyong's accomplishments be degraded rather than Terminator's. That is the reasoning I have. I know that it doesn't stand up in terms of pure logic, since in theory only the people who won versus match-fixers actually have degraded accomplishments. Anyway~~
First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that.
No, I just want to emphasize certain words without resorting to use italic brackets because I'm lazy. Thanks, but I don't need your crappy life tricks.
The rest of your post is irrelevant since you completely ignore the points I'm making; whether it's out of ignorance or you just purposefully refuse to understand, I don't care anymore to discuss this with you.
On April 22 2016 20:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: People saying Life's achievements don't count anymore are incredibly close minded imo. But hey cannot say i am surprised to see that, savior still triggers people to no end.
I agree
he was that strong that he was paid to win 3-1 instead of 3-0.
This make me think about how much he was stronger than others.
On April 22 2016 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: If only life would have been caught before blizzcon so lilbow would have gotten his rightful blizzcon trophy.
What if the games were fixed, but Life just couldn't find a way to lose no matter how hard he tried?
I really wonder how Lilbow takes this? I am not sure if he reads every single piece of bullshit on TL, but surely he must be painfully aware of this happening over and over again. I am becoming quite sorry for him, because he still is a very good player and I enjoyed some of his games - yet, I can't really help myself
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
Yeah, I'm sure shitting on the scene was the first thing he had in mind
On April 22 2016 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: If only life would have been caught before blizzcon so lilbow would have gotten his rightful blizzcon trophy.
What if the games were fixed, but Life just couldn't find a way to lose no matter how hard he tried?
I really wonder how Lilbow takes this? I am not sure if he reads every single piece of bullshit on TL, but surely he must be painfully aware of this happening over and over again. I am becoming quite sorry for him, because he still is a very good player and I enjoyed some of his games - yet, I can't really help myself
I think he takes it with humor. There was a tweet from him after NW3 in which he said he was glad Mlord did all the work so he could practice for NW4
On April 22 2016 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: If only life would have been caught before blizzcon so lilbow would have gotten his rightful blizzcon trophy.
What if the games were fixed, but Life just couldn't find a way to lose no matter how hard he tried?
I really wonder how Lilbow takes this? I am not sure if he reads every single piece of bullshit on TL, but surely he must be painfully aware of this happening over and over again. I am becoming quite sorry for him, because he still is a very good player and I enjoyed some of his games - yet, I can't really help myself
I think Lilbow doesn't cry in his office so he is probably ok since he can play starcraft
On April 22 2016 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: If only life would have been caught before blizzcon so lilbow would have gotten his rightful blizzcon trophy.
What if the games were fixed, but Life just couldn't find a way to lose no matter how hard he tried?
I really wonder how Lilbow takes this? I am not sure if he reads every single piece of bullshit on TL, but surely he must be painfully aware of this happening over and over again. I am becoming quite sorry for him, because he still is a very good player and I enjoyed some of his games - yet, I can't really help myself
I think he takes it with humor. There was a tweet from him after NW3 in which he said he was glad Mlord did all the work so he could practice for NW4
That's really cool I sometimes stop to think if making fun of people online is right. I mean I don't mine if people act like that to me, but everybody's different. Then I remember my noble quest of becoming an asshole and everything is fine.
On April 21 2016 19:03 fealx wrote: Life and Bbyong were just peasants in this game. Catching all the brokers and financial backers is a good start but they need to catch the king in this game of chess to stop match-fixing.
Sorry but the king of this game cannot be catched cause is Money. When money are involved this things will happen for sure, they can only put severe control to limit this as much as possible and try to educate well these boys.
KeSPA needs to start caring about players. Right now they care only when something like this happens which is wrong.
Yeah... I feel like with how tempting it is to match fix, the life of a pro gamer must not be as worth it as it seems from a fan's perspective. If you're actually enjoying what you're doing for a living, I think the chances of you cheating drastically decrease.
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
Yeah, I'm sure shitting on the scene was the first thing he had in mind
Doesn't matter what was in his mind. He still hurt the scene alot. A korean sc player should know the effect of matchfixing. I have no sympathy for Life here. Seems like he doesn't care
Man this hurts. I always liked bbyong. I also wonder if life's move from kt to afreeca was done knowing this would be the result so he could give kt a replacement. If so that's also a huge problem.
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote: You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
Yeah, I'm sure shitting on the scene was the first thing he had in mind
Doesn't matter what was in his mind. He still hurt the scene alot. A korean sc player should know the effect of matchfixing. I have no sympathy for Life here. Seems like he doesn't care
For a guy who skyrocked so early he probably didn't have much consequential thinking. Who knows though, maybe he did this out of malice, but I really doubt that. And for me it goes without saying that his achievements isn't mutually exclusive with his matchfixing.
"It's a sign of an infantile mind to pretend like nothing Life or sAviOr did has value cos they also committed a crime." as Thorin said. I don't always agree with him, but that's a very sober thought in this emotional mess
On April 21 2016 19:03 fealx wrote: Life and Bbyong were just peasants in this game. Catching all the brokers and financial backers is a good start but they need to catch the king in this game of chess to stop match-fixing.
Sorry but the king of this game cannot be catched cause is Money. When money are involved this things will happen for sure, they can only put severe control to limit this as much as possible and try to educate well these boys.
KeSPA needs to start caring about players. Right now they care only when something like this happens which is wrong.
Yeah... I feel like with how tempting it is to match fix, the life of a pro gamer must not be as worth it as it seems from a fan's perspective. If you're actually enjoying what you're doing for a living, I think the chances of you cheating drastically decrease.
That's partially likely. Basic cost- benefit analysis dictates that the determining factor is if he thought he could get away with it or felt trapped in the situation. Gambling is a terrible vice for some people and let's not pretend everyone can handle it. He was a guy who won a lot at a young age and probably believed he could "beat the odds" in both gambling (allegedly) and matchfixing since he had already beaten the odds in starcraft.
The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
I think there are easier things to do than to change Korean laws just for the sake of SC2's survival xD
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
That's a very simplistic argument that doesn't really hold water in the real world, betting on tennis is legal yet there's been allegations of match fixing there. College Basketball, same thing, plenty of points shaving sagas have happened. Cricket same again, there have been people banned over match fixing or helping gamblers.
Making gambling legal doesn't make the problem go away. You can't oversee every betting company out there
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
Fixing one match?
both of the matches (Terminator and Dream), HE WON!!?!?!?!?!?
$30k for losing 1 game in a best of 5 that he wins anyways? Why do I get the feeling that some esports Illuminati level of conspiracy is going on here. There has to be some missing information here...
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
Fixing one match?
both of the matches (Terminator and Dream), HE WON!!?!?!?!?!?
$30k for losing 1 game in a best of 5 that he wins anyways? Why do I get the feeling that some esports Illuminati level of conspiracy is going on here. There has to be some missing information here...
There's no conspiracy going on here. You get paid to lose one specific map in the series when you're the overwhelming favorite. People who know its happening bet on you to lose that match and make their money. Then the player goes on to win the series as they're the better player anyway, earning them MORE money. That's why they do it. There's no world where DRGLing reasonably beats Bbyong, so he gets paid for losing one map and then paid again for winning the series. Same with Life and Terminator
Life will the greatest, such a pity to loose him like this.
Bbyong was a great player too, I loved is style.
But seriously, 70 000 000 wons to loose 2 games in a tournament that rewards 10 000 000 to the winner?
This is simply insane, if nothing is done, match fixing will never end and we'll keep loosing great players because of it. Fear of the prosecutor will never be enough if the amounts of money are so ridiculous.
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
That's a very simplistic argument that doesn't really hold water in the real world, betting on tennis is legal yet there's been allegations of match fixing there. College Basketball, same thing, plenty of points shaving sagas have happened. Cricket same again, there have been people banned over match fixing or helping gamblers.
Making gambling legal doesn't make the problem go away. You can't oversee every betting company out there
I said to make it legal not to make it free market. This kind of thing should remain government owned.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
I think it's cute that you made a new account just to post this
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
That's a very simplistic argument that doesn't really hold water in the real world, betting on tennis is legal yet there's been allegations of match fixing there. College Basketball, same thing, plenty of points shaving sagas have happened. Cricket same again, there have been people banned over match fixing or helping gamblers.
Making gambling legal doesn't make the problem go away. You can't oversee every betting company out there
I said to make it legal not to make it free market. This kind of thing should remain government owned.
Best way to stop this would add up to control of the betting scene by lmiting the greatest wagering sum per individual to around 10-100$. Wich is difficult to uphold.
On April 23 2016 04:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: The amount of money that goes into matchfix is pretty crazy. 30k $ for fixing one match? it's higher than most 1st place prize money !! No wonder players will fall for it, you can live more than a year off that amount (especially since it's probably non declared/taxed)
The solution would be simple, just like for weed. Just legalize betting and have kespa / official establishment manage it. This would bring more money for sc2 and they would always be instantly aware of who bets what so it would facilitate investigations a lot.
That's a very simplistic argument that doesn't really hold water in the real world, betting on tennis is legal yet there's been allegations of match fixing there. College Basketball, same thing, plenty of points shaving sagas have happened. Cricket same again, there have been people banned over match fixing or helping gamblers.
Making gambling legal doesn't make the problem go away. You can't oversee every betting company out there
I said to make it legal not to make it free market. This kind of thing should remain government owned.
There will always be black market bookmakers, Cricket shows us that. I stand by my original statement, it's a simplistic argument that doesn't hold water in the real world
On April 23 2016 11:26 Gwavajuice wrote: Sad sad news indeed.
Life will the greatest, such a pity to loose him like this.
Bbyong was a great player too, I loved is style.
But seriously, 70 000 000 wons to loose 2 games in a tournament that rewards 10 000 000 to the winner?
This is simply insane, if nothing is done, match fixing will never end and we'll keep loosing great players because of it. Fear of the prosecutor will never be enough if the amounts of money are so ridiculous.
This is a result of Blizzard's failure to make SC2 great. If it was great, prize pool would have been much higher, hence less incentive for some people to do it. I'm not defending Life though.
On April 23 2016 11:26 Gwavajuice wrote: Sad sad news indeed.
Life will the greatest, such a pity to loose him like this.
Bbyong was a great player too, I loved is style.
But seriously, 70 000 000 wons to loose 2 games in a tournament that rewards 10 000 000 to the winner?
This is simply insane, if nothing is done, match fixing will never end and we'll keep loosing great players because of it. Fear of the prosecutor will never be enough if the amounts of money are so ridiculous.
This is a result of Blizzard's failure to make SC2 great. If it was great, prize pool would have been much higher, hence less incentive for some people to do it. I'm not defending Life though.
Yes thats why savior matchfixed in BW, cause sc2 wasnt good ))))))))))))))))))))
On April 23 2016 11:26 Gwavajuice wrote: Sad sad news indeed.
Life will the greatest, such a pity to loose him like this.
Bbyong was a great player too, I loved is style.
But seriously, 70 000 000 wons to loose 2 games in a tournament that rewards 10 000 000 to the winner?
This is simply insane, if nothing is done, match fixing will never end and we'll keep loosing great players because of it. Fear of the prosecutor will never be enough if the amounts of money are so ridiculous.
This is a result of Blizzard's failure to make SC2 great. If it was great, prize pool would have been much higher, hence less incentive for some people to do it. I'm not defending Life though.
Your comment is beyond stupid and I hope I'm just being trolled and that no functioning human brain could actually come up with such a fart of a thought.
BW and CS:GO have been harmed. I don''t see how LoL could escape from it (prolly not on the outcome of a map, but there are so many little details you could bet on)
Actually we should thank Blizzard, cause region lock might actually be a great move to reduce the impact of illegal betting in South Korea.
On April 23 2016 11:26 Gwavajuice wrote: Sad sad news indeed.
Life will the greatest, such a pity to loose him like this.
Bbyong was a great player too, I loved is style.
But seriously, 70 000 000 wons to loose 2 games in a tournament that rewards 10 000 000 to the winner?
This is simply insane, if nothing is done, match fixing will never end and we'll keep loosing great players because of it. Fear of the prosecutor will never be enough if the amounts of money are so ridiculous.
This is a result of Blizzard's failure to make SC2 great. If it was great, prize pool would have been much higher, hence less incentive for some people to do it. I'm not defending Life though.
Your comment is beyond stupid and I hope I'm just being trolled and that no functioning human brain could actually come up with such a fart of a thought.
BW and CS:GO have been harmed. I don''t see how LoL could escape from it (prolly not on the outcome of a map, but there are so many little details you could bet on)
Actually we should thank Blizzard, cause region lock might actually be a great move to reduce the impact of illegal betting in South Korea.
User was warned for this post
OR it could encourage more Korean SC2 players to matchfix because they're not getting any chances thanks to the Welfare Circus Series
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
yeah they got rich with those skins they won by matchfixing a game that didn't matter for anything *grins*. And people got really worked up by this, just like they did with Naniwas Probe rush in the GSL.
@teamliquid I don't like how you put the title to a picture with the price and where he is crying. BUT he is not crying about the topic you describe, he was just being emotinal about winning! So you are intentionally abusing the picture. You are intentionally misleading the reader - maknig him think: Oh he is whining about being indicted? NO
On April 21 2016 18:42 Musicus wrote: The only good thing is that they seem to have caught a lot of brokers and financial backers too, which is even more important than catching a player imo.
I agree, that is an important step. The players can not simply be considered victims, but are at least not the big guys..
On April 24 2016 04:34 gero00 wrote: @teamliquid I don't like how you put the title to a picture with the price and where he is crying. BUT he is not crying about the topic you describe, he was just being emotinal about winning! So you are intentionally abusing the picture. You are intentionally misleading the reader - maknig him think: Oh he is whining about being indicted? NO
On April 21 2016 18:42 Musicus wrote: The only good thing is that they seem to have caught a lot of brokers and financial backers too, which is even more important than catching a player imo.
I agree, that is an important step. The players can not simply be considered victims, but are at least not the big guys..
Yeah I have to admit that that pic is kinda inappropriate, a bit like if they put a pic of a victorious Armstrong on the newspapers when he was confirmed as having doped.
On April 22 2016 20:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: People saying Life's achievements don't count anymore are incredibly close minded imo. But hey cannot say i am surprised to see that, savior still triggers people to no end.
To an extent i agree, its not like he suddenly didnt win a bunch of tournaments, but what he did absolutly puts a mar on his career. For some this means not couting his achievements, for most tho I feel like it just marks an ugly end to a good career. I will never say this makes him a bad sc2 player, but it does speak to his integrity
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
I think Blizz would be in the same boat with regards to a Lifetime ban. They wouldn't want people who matchfix to be winning tournaments they're putting the money into. I really can't see him being allowed to ever compete in SC2 again.
Wow, this sucks a lot. Very much too much. Life was and is one of my all-time favorite players, and I will always look up to his skill and perseverance all the way from back when he won Iron Squid 2 with his trademark 'Ling micro and absolutely insane fundementals.
This, as many others have also said, brings me back to sAviOr, who I absolutely adored too. His mindgames and revolutionary Zerg style made me want to get better, every time I saw him play.
No matter what you think of any of these two players and what they did, you simply cannot just deny their skill and greatness. They both, in my opinion, deserve respect for what they brought to the game, despite all this negative shit.
I'm not apologizing for Life - I think that's his job - but he's a kid. A kid with a very, very promising career in eSports in a game where he can beat anyone, any time. I'm not a fan of the lifetime-ban argument. Give him a season ban or a year or something. Then, if he wants to, he can try and make amends by fighting to get back the glory that we know he's capable of.
Be honest: would any of you want to pay the rest of your life, for something you did as a teenager?
P.S. : As for BByong, I must tip my hat at him for coming clean. We should all aspire to man up to your mistakes.
On April 24 2016 19:37 20-Minute-Jackal wrote: When are we going to hear about some KeSPA lifetime bans?
In esport even 1 year ban is like a lifetime ban, and I doubt it'll be easy to bring sponsors back on you with a tarnished name.
But, this idea of lifetime ban is plain stupid and won't help the fight against matchfixing at all. Sentence with no way of redemption never worked anywhere, anytime and in this particular case it would only make the player's position more fragile.
If anything, I'm crossing fingers for a symbolic sentence to Bbyong, he decided to go and reveal his case to the authorities, and made the arrest of some brokers/backers possible. What he did should be encouraged, the more players will talk the faster illegal betting will be solved. Each time (italian mafias, south africa apartheid crimes, ...) you allow people to talk to authorities and redeem themselves, you solve the issue with efficiency.
On the other hand if you say life time ban, you can be sure that no player will ever talk and they will be left alone to choose between being 100% honest or getting thirty fucking thousands dollars for loosing one map and still winning the series. I don't think this would help in the fight against match fixing.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
On April 24 2016 19:53 SunnStR wrote: Wow, this sucks a lot. Very much too much. Life was and is one of my all-time favorite players, and I will always look up to his skill and perseverance all the way from back when he won Iron Squid 2 with his trademark 'Ling micro and absolutely insane fundementals.
This, as many others have also said, brings me back to sAviOr, who I absolutely adored too. His mindgames and revolutionary Zerg style made me want to get better, every time I saw him play.
No matter what you think of any of these two players and what they did, you simply cannot just deny their skill and greatness. They both, in my opinion, deserve respect for what they brought to the game, despite all this negative shit.
I'm not apologizing for Life - I think that's his job - but he's a kid. A kid with a very, very promising career in eSports in a game where he can beat anyone, any time. I'm not a fan of the lifetime-ban argument. Give him a season ban or a year or something. Then, if he wants to, he can try and make amends by fighting to get back the glory that we know he's capable of.
Be honest: would any of you want to pay the rest of your life, for something you did as a teenager?
P.S. : As for BByong, I must tip my hat at him for coming clean. We should all aspire to man up to your mistakes.
That won't ever work in Starcraft. If they wanted to let these 2 off, they'd first need to let off a lot of the players from the 2010 matchfix ring.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point.
On April 24 2016 19:53 SunnStR wrote: Wow, this sucks a lot. Very much too much. Life was and is one of my all-time favorite players, and I will always look up to his skill and perseverance all the way from back when he won Iron Squid 2 with his trademark 'Ling micro and absolutely insane fundementals.
This, as many others have also said, brings me back to sAviOr, who I absolutely adored too. His mindgames and revolutionary Zerg style made me want to get better, every time I saw him play.
No matter what you think of any of these two players and what they did, you simply cannot just deny their skill and greatness. They both, in my opinion, deserve respect for what they brought to the game, despite all this negative shit.
I'm not apologizing for Life - I think that's his job - but he's a kid. A kid with a very, very promising career in eSports in a game where he can beat anyone, any time. I'm not a fan of the lifetime-ban argument. Give him a season ban or a year or something. Then, if he wants to, he can try and make amends by fighting to get back the glory that we know he's capable of.
Be honest: would any of you want to pay the rest of your life, for something you did as a teenager?
P.S. : As for BByong, I must tip my hat at him for coming clean. We should all aspire to man up to your mistakes.
Stupid things I did when was I was a teenager didn't involve that amount of money..
He knew it was wrong. He knew the risks. Yet he chose to do it anyway.. Now it's time to pay the piper.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point.
I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point.
I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished.
Fair enough, it's still kinda stupid though. Life was a star player, he probably had one of the higher salaries and his skill would have led him to win more money in the future as well. Going the easy and illegal route is still incredibly stupid because of his status in the scene. Players with no star power don't have to lose as much as he did, which would make the decision to do it "less stupid" , i think that's fair to say? :D
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point.
I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished.
Fair enough, it's still kinda stupid though. Life was a star player, he probably had one of the higher salaries and his skill would have led him to win more money in the future as well. Going the easy and illegal route is still incredibly stupid because of his status in the scene. Players with no star power don't have to lose as much as he did, which would make the decision to do it "less stupid" , i think that's fair to say? :D
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point.
I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished.
Fair enough, it's still kinda stupid though. Life was a star player, he probably had one of the higher salaries and his skill would have led him to win more money in the future as well. Going the easy and illegal route is still incredibly stupid because of his status in the scene. Players with no star power don't have to lose as much as he did, which would make the decision to do it "less stupid" , i think that's fair to say? :D
Yes, it would have definitely been "less stupid" if he had been a B-team player or something. I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series). Such a decision always appear stupid afterwards, like all bad decisions, but truth is that it was not that stupid.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment.
If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it?
Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point.
I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished.
Fair enough, it's still kinda stupid though. Life was a star player, he probably had one of the higher salaries and his skill would have led him to win more money in the future as well. Going the easy and illegal route is still incredibly stupid because of his status in the scene. Players with no star power don't have to lose as much as he did, which would make the decision to do it "less stupid" , i think that's fair to say? :D
Yes, it would have definitely been "less stupid" if he had been a B-team player or something. I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series). Such a decision always appear stupid afterwards, like all bad decisions, but truth is that it was not that stupid.
I guess it depends on how likely it is to get caught. If the gambling stories are true Life made a lot of stupid decisions in his free time though Also money isn't everything, if you simply break it down to eraning money the easiest way possible and we assume that it was very unlikely to get caught, sure maybe his decision wasn't "incredibly stupid". I see definitely where you are coming from. If we assume that it is incredibly unlikely to get caught then we also kinda have to assume that a lot more of it is still going on. Maybe, maybe not.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
When the job only has short term earning potential, the potential to earn money illicitly is both easy, quick, and assumed to be relatively safe, it is reasonable to do it. In fact, he would of been an idiot not to cheat. That is why cheating is so endemic across the scene, and will continue to be. It's always going to be economically rationale to throw. And most people dont get caught. Even now.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
When the job only has short term earning potential, the potential to earn money illicitly is both easy, quick, and assumed to be relatively safe, it is reasonable to do it. In fact, he would of been an idiot not to cheat. That is why cheating is so endemic across the scene, and will continue to be. It's always going to be economically rationale to throw. And most people dont get caught. Even now.
It is true that the offer was so tempting. But then again, in place like Korean where the culture is strict, Life literally doomed his future. Now that he has been caught and judged, he has a criminal record. How easy do you think it is to find a job with one? Even if the job as progamer is a short term one, but risking your whole future in case your caught ain't really worthy it unless the money you will make will make sure you will happy without a job till the end of your life.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
When the job only has short term earning potential, the potential to earn money illicitly is both easy, quick, and assumed to be relatively safe, it is reasonable to do it. In fact, he would of been an idiot not to cheat. That is why cheating is so endemic across the scene, and will continue to be. It's always going to be economically rationale to throw. And most people dont get caught. Even now.
It is true that the offer was so tempting. But then again, in place like Korean where the culture is strict, Life literally doomed his future. Now that he has been caught and judged, he has a criminal record. How easy do you think it is to find a job with one? Even if the job as progamer is a short term one, but risking your whole future in case your caught ain't really worthy it unless the money you will make will make sure you will happy without a job till the end of your life.
If you think the chances of getting caught are fairly low, the consequences of getting caught arent all that frightening. Life's within a scene where every team is corrupt, and half the players, and they've been doing it for over half a decade at this point, which is around a quarter of his entire life. Yeah, it would seem pretty bullet proof at that point.
my only problem with this is that its way too lenient. life should get fined way more for hurting the integrity of the game as well as not be allowed to play sc2 (hell, any game) competitively again. the arrest time should also be longer. his behaviour was absolutely unacceptable.
bbyong at least had the decency to turn himself in so i can understand a milder sentence.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
Yeah, yeah, all that talk about "glory", "legends", "heroes". Breaking news, real life is not like that, especially when you consider that SC2 is SC2 and not soccer or the Olympics. Between gaining $60K for a fairly low investment and a fairly low risk, as Dazed_Spy very well explained, and being a "legend" of an eSports which has no guarantee to be still celebrated five or ten years from now on (I won't even talk about fifty years or more), I think most people would chose the first.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time.
It's simple really, Life got almost double what you get for winning the GSL, the hardest SC2 tournament around for losing one map in two seperate series, who wouldn't do that if they think the risk of getting caught is low? Especially with things the way they are now thanks to the stupid fucking region lock.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time.
Except he'd have gained more money had he not matchfixed since he got caught and won't earn anymore.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time.
Except he'd have gained more money had he not matchfixed since he got caught and won't earn anymore.
Maybe. But just as well he could have gotten wrist problems in half a year and earned nothing at all. You never know what the future holds.
I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time.
Except he'd have gained more money had he not matchfixed since he got caught and won't earn anymore.
Maybe. But just as well he could have gotten wrist problems in half a year and earned nothing at all. You never know what the future holds.
Or he might have even made a million on match fixing alone before getting caught. Yup, you don't even know what the past holds.
wow just shocking they gave soo much $$ to throw, the gambling market is so much greater than expected.
honestly can't fault a 19 yr old too much for cheating to grab that much money. like many have already said, it's just too tempting. sure we can probably judge him when most of us are fairly well off economically, but switching positions, i think it'd be hard pressed not to make the same decisions.
it's a sad reality of gambling + anything else, hard not to be consumed by it.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS
On April 25 2016 14:04 FFGenerations wrote: i dont play sc2 so im just wondering... how did he fix the games to ensure that he lost 100% whilst being 100% undetectable?
It's pretty easy all things considered on a pro level to cover yourself if you're fixing, a second late to expand, a split second longer to react to pressure, going in a split second before your upgrades finished, they all look like a typical "bad day" mistake.
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS
I just couldn't wait for someone to shit on WCS, even if the system was announced six months after Life's fixed games (that prosecutor knows of). Wow. Do you still understand?
Well if we're going to find excuses for match-fixers, not that we should, I would argue that the lack of fresh opportunities for Korean pro-gamers who get discriminated by the system due to their nationality and nothing else (by being banned from participating in previously open and international events such as IEM or Dreamhack), then yeah, that could be a reason.
The new WCS system is objectively worse for progamers who are Korean, though then again it has little, if anything, to do with the topic at hand which is match-fixing.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
On April 25 2016 17:06 Incognoto wrote: Well if we're going to find excuses for match-fixers, not that we should, I would argue that the lack of fresh opportunities for Korean pro-gamers who get discriminated by the system due to their nationality and nothing else (by being banned from participating in previously open and international events such as IEM or Dreamhack), then yeah, that could be a reason.
The new WCS system is objectively worse for progamers who are Korean, though then again it has little, if anything, to do with the topic at hand which is match-fixing.
This could stand for B., but he rarely traveled outside anyway. L. fixed his matches 1/2 a year before the new WCS was born.
On April 25 2016 14:04 FFGenerations wrote: i dont play sc2 so im just wondering... how did he fix the games to ensure that he lost 100% whilst being 100% undetectable?
I only watched Bbyong's fixed game vs DRGLing and all he had to do was going bio and micro badly, since it's hard to micro it looked legit. Plus he was like "ooh I'm slow so I prefer mech" in interviews to cover up I guess.
As for Life he wasn't 100% undetectable, losing to SjoW... It's more like people don't want him to be a matchfixer so they lie to themselves when he plays utterly bad.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
A fair enough assessment, though in many cases people are looking to understand the reasoning behind a crime too far.
In the case of Life, the reason is simple: he believes that he's above everyone else, thus does not mind cheating. This goes for most criminals, really. That goes for Nazis as well, who did what they did basing their values on the stupid notion that they are superior to everyone else. I don't see any other reason than selfish arrogance, though feel free to prove me wrong.
Integrity is not something non-trivial, it's something which has immense value. If you have integrity, you do not cheat or break the law; it goes beyond esports. Perhaps the better word here would have been humility: not thinking that you're above others. Perhaps both?
Still, you brought up a fair point, which I cannot ignore. Please also consider mine.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
A fair enough assessment, though in many cases people are looking to understand the reasoning behind a crime too far.
In the case of Life, the reason is simple: he believes that he's above everyone else, thus does not mind cheating. This goes for most criminals, really. That goes for Nazis as well, who did what they did basing their values on the stupid notion that they are superior to everyone else. I don't see any other reason than selfish arrogance, though feel free to prove me wrong.
Integrity is not something non-trivial, it's something which has immense value. If you have integrity, you do not cheat or break the law; it goes beyond esports. Perhaps the better word here would have been humility: not thinking that you're above others. Perhaps both?
Still, you brought up a fair point, which I cannot ignore. Please also consider mine.
I understand the need to have a scene where cheating is, if not nonexistent, at least not apparent, because there's indeed a risk of this scene taking a big blow sponsor- and viewership-wise (we can look a pro cycling as an example of this). I also understand that from the point of view of a fan, it's never cool to see cheating in the scene you support, especially when the cheaters are not low-tier player but widely recognized stars we were used to admire.
However I don't think that saying that Life did this just because he was arrogant is accurate, though it definitely played a role, in the sense that anyone who breaks the law is "arrogant" enough to be persuaded that they won't be caught (most of the times, sometimes you break the law while acknowledging not that you might get caught, but that you will get caught). It is necessary to explore others reasons behind his decision, such as financiary reasons (i.e. would he have done it if it payed $6K instead of $60K? If he had more opportunities to gain personal sponsors? If he hadn't spent all his earnings on stuff? etc) or systemic reasons (it is much, much easier for an individual to decide to cheat if cheating is widespread : in other words, if matchfixing concerns way more than just 4 progamers, Life's decision appears more understandable - or less "stupid", if you want), because if you limit yourself to personal reasons (ie Life lacking humility), you'll likely never fix the issue, unless you monitor progamers H24 7/7 to make sure they never talk to brokers.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
Absolutely beautifully said, in all paragraphs.
Finally, finally, someone actually SEES the big picture far beyond the usual dogma!
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
a) money ./thread? b) ok?
As I already said, money is not all, though it is a significant part. You also have to factor in potential systemic reasons, because you won't fix the problem the same way if only 4 progamers are concerned by matchfixing in the Korean SC2 scene or if half the scene is doing it.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
A fair enough assessment, though in many cases people are looking to understand the reasoning behind a crime too far.
In the case of Life, the reason is simple: he believes that he's above everyone else, thus does not mind cheating. This goes for most criminals, really. That goes for Nazis as well, who did what they did basing their values on the stupid notion that they are superior to everyone else. I don't see any other reason than selfish arrogance, though feel free to prove me wrong.
Integrity is not something non-trivial, it's something which has immense value. If you have integrity, you do not cheat or break the law; it goes beyond esports. Perhaps the better word here would have been humility: not thinking that you're above others. Perhaps both?
Still, you brought up a fair point, which I cannot ignore. Please also consider mine.
I understand the need to have a scene where cheating is, if not nonexistent, at least not apparent, because there's indeed a risk of this scene taking a big blow sponsor- and viewership-wise (we can look a pro cycling as an example of this). I also understand that from the point of view of a fan, it's never cool to see cheating in the scene you support, especially when the cheaters are not low-tier player but widely recognized stars we were used to admire.
However I don't think that saying that Life did this just because he was arrogant is accurate, though it definitely played a role, in the sense that anyone who breaks the law is "arrogant" enough to be persuaded that they won't be caught (most of the times, sometimes you break the law while acknowledging not that you might get caught, but that you will get caught). It is necessary to explore others reasons behind his decision, such as financiary reasons (i.e. would he have done it if it payed $6K instead of $60K? If he had more opportunities to gain personal sponsors? If he hadn't spent all his earnings on stuff? etc) or systemic reasons (it is much, much easier for an individual to decide to cheat if cheating is widespread : in other words, if matchfixing concerns way more than just 4 progamers, Life's decision appears more understandable - or less "stupid", if you want), because if you limit yourself to personal reasons (ie Life lacking humility), you'll likely never fix the issue, unless you monitor progamers H24 7/7 to make sure they never talk to brokers.
Fair enough, though really I still find it hard, from my position, to rationalize Life's actions. Sure, there are reasons, but as far as I'm concerned, they are reasons which are based on personal ignorance / attitude.
To put it simply, a progamer with integrity would have simply not have match-fixed, regardless of whether or not other people were doing it or if the potential payment was substantial. That also goes along with personal traits, I suppose.
To me, any possible rationalization still eventually boils down to personal traits. If Life would match fix for $30k, but not $10k, at the end of the day he's still considering match-fixing, which is still arrogance/destruction/etc.
Same thing if Life had knowledge of other progamers match-fixing.
Still, you have a good point so I won't disagree. Just, I find it very hard to find plausible reasons.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Absolutely, it seems that if you dont "cheat" in SC2 korean scene then you are not normal. He just stretches the rationalization to his own opinion, and why Life Matchfixed? 99% for money, he is not doing it for being famous or to have more power, or any other reason, he did it for the nice U$60k, if he could have those U$60k almost for free in any other way he wouldnt have lost those games.
While it wasn't the only factor, matchfixing was the final straw in 3 teams disbanding and a studio shutting down, along with sponsors being reluctant from sponsoring another tournament back in BW days.
If anyone still wants to defend the players while also calling themselves a supporter of eSports scene, let that sink in first.
(No, not OtherWorld because he's making good points here)
On April 26 2016 01:41 supernovamaniac wrote: While it wasn't the only factor, matchfixing was the final straw in 3 teams disbanding and a studio shutting down, along with sponsors being reluctant from sponsoring another tournament back in BW days.
If anyone still wants to defend the players while also calling themselves a supporter of eSports scene, let that sink in first.
(No, not OtherWorld because he's making good points here)
For those of us that experienced the destruction following Savior first hand, we are just shaking our heads at these posts.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS
I just couldn't wait for someone to shit on WCS, even if the system was announced six months after Life's fixed games (that prosecutor knows of). Wow. Do you still understand?
WCS 2015 was still limiting to Koreans, not as much as 2016 I'll grant you but still limiting. I notice you steered clear of the other point, when you get paid almost as much as WINNING the GSL for throwing one map, I can understand why. And with WCS 2016 it's going to get worse, not better.
I can easily make an.argument this way
- Bbyong takes part in a match known to be fixed in 2015 - WCS 2016 announced - Bbyong matchfixes himself
The temptation will always be there and the stupid system you support will make matters worse, not better. I said it when it was announced and I'll continue saying it. That system will kill this game.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS
I just couldn't wait for someone to shit on WCS, even if the system was announced six months after Life's fixed games (that prosecutor knows of). Wow. Do you still understand?
WCS 2015 was still limiting to Koreans, not as much as 2016 I'll grant you but still limiting. I notice you steered clear of the other point, when you get paid almost as much as WINNING the GSL for throwing one map, I can understand why. And with WCS 2016 it's going to get worse, not better.
I can easily make an.argument this way
- Bbyong takes part in a match known to be fixed in 2015 - WCS 2016 announced - Bbyong matchfixes himself
The temptation will always be there and the stupid system you support will make matters worse, not better. I said it when it was announced and I'll continue saying it. That system will kill this game.
Explain how it was limiting? How was Dreamhack and IEM any more limiting in 2015 as it was in 2014? WCS - yes, but Bbyong wasn't a WCS player.
Bbyong participated in two overseas tournaments (with notable finishes) in his entire SC2 career, both of which were IEMs. It's not like Bbyong was like the Liquid Koreans or mYi Koreans who relied on the overseas tournaments.
Your argument is rather flawed for saying that WCS caused Bbyong's Matchfixing.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
No, they sound like excuses to me too, and i'm far from a perfect being. I also don't think that you'd need to be "a perfect being" simply to stick to principles. What you do need is the ability to understand and accept a disadvantage of some kind if you do stick to your values. That's it.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
This shows that a lot of people stopped playing the game because of the intense competition happening with Starcraft. I used to be pro at this game back when this game was the main thing to look out for. It's sad too becase I still love this game but everyone else moved away from it.
A lot of people used to play this game but instead of staying with the game, everyone moved to the next big thing being League of Legends. It's sad when I want to show my friends this fantastic game but they scream and rage at League instead oof having fun in Starcraft Arcade.
On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote: Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand.
The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction.
Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo.
If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons.
Second chance? Hahahahahaha. I can't believe the number of ignorant dumbasses here who don't realize how serious what life did is. This is something that does massive massive damage to the scene. There is a reason why savior is banned for life and all his accomplishments vacated. He's even been banned from streaming.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
On April 26 2016 17:39 HornyHerring wrote: Funny how some people try to make Life and Bbyong victims and WCS the villain that caused all this, hahha.
Indeed, it's quite laughable
Its hard to accept not seeing your favorite player playing ever again . I guess life was like the only person many people enjoyed watching including myself. O well there are great players that just need to get noticed.
I guess someone will kinda replace him eventually.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
So, now the people who believes that he was just greedy and stupid are not intelligent lol, really guy you are something, please tell us the hidden truth, your truth btw.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
So, now the people who believes that he was just greedy and stupid are not intelligent lol, really guy you are something, please tell us the hidden truth, your truth btw.
I suppose for some people it is easier to pretend and to lay blame at a single individual's moral weakness than to imagine a wide spread culture which facilitates such. Make no mistake, Life did matchfix, but behind him is surely many more who are responsible. Blaming Life solely for his selfishness or greed is just an easy kneejerk reaction and intellectually lazy.
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote: I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
Good luck with proving the damage they done. Mostly because they are not playing for months now and the result isn't in direct response with their actions but mostly with the action of prosecutor who made the statement
I'd much rather have GSL a clause in the contract so that they have to refund winnings if they are found guilty of match fixing or similar behaviour.
On April 26 2016 23:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I suppose for some people it is easier to pretend and to lay blame at a single individual's moral weakness than to imagine a wide spread culture which facilitates such. Make no mistake, Life did matchfix, but behind him is surely many more who are responsible. Blaming Life solely for his selfishness or greed is just an easy kneejerk reaction and intellectually lazy.
A report by Eilers Research released last year estimated the size of the worldwide e-sports betting industry would exceed $23bn by 2020.
For the love of god, someone write an e-mail to the multi-billion dollar e-sports betting industry and tell them once and for all that what they are doing is immoral!
The betting is legal. There are several legal services in the west, where you can bet on esports matches.
The problem is that Korea forbids betting for all korean citizens. And thus every betting you have in korea is illegal and what is illegal anyway will attract more illegal stuff and more criminal activities. When your booking activity is illegal anyway and you are busted when you get caught, you can also start trying to fix matches by approaching starcraft kids. More money and you are in the illegal branche anyway.
That doesn't really make sense. You are basically saying that because betting is illegal, all the betters might as well just try fixing matches anyways. Thing is, that doesn't occur out in real life. There are different degrees of criminals. The vast majority of crimes are petty crimes. The vast majority of criminals don't decide to go "all in" in their criminal activities, so to speak. For something like this, it'll be under organised crime, which is probably why bbyong gave himself up. he is probably soughting protection from threats aginst him or his family from said organised crime. Where betting is legal there is also match fixing anyways, so nothing you said is true anyways.
On April 26 2016 23:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I suppose for some people it is easier to pretend and to lay blame at a single individual's moral weakness than to imagine a wide spread culture which facilitates such. Make no mistake, Life did matchfix, but behind him is surely many more who are responsible. Blaming Life solely for his selfishness or greed is just an easy kneejerk reaction and intellectually lazy.
Of course there are other people involved, but we are talking about Life, what you can do? put in jail all the bettors who screw the other bettors when they rig results, gl with that lol, and btw you can rig results from legal betting so?, the Korean government is the one which has to act about this,but it is going to happen?. Anyway every reason, cause, excuse, whatever you say about Korea and the system, the politicians, the culture, etc, isnt going to change the fact that Life did it for greediness.
Legal betting is a problem anyway. People don't or hardly can no whether their online betting is actually legal and it easily goes through the wrong channels. If all betting was illegal, there would be a lot less casuals funding criminals who, in turn, pressure the players.
On April 27 2016 21:07 HornyHerring wrote: Suspended sentence, no prison time, just a hefty fine. He's not a danger to society or himself, so no reason to lock him up.
You would think that because of what happened to Gerrad, B4, and YoDa. But, I feel like they'll use Life as a scapegoat (poor word choice but can't figure out what to write) and punish him harshly because of who he is and what he's accomplished.
I can see it being like: We let the small fry go because we got the heavy hitter.
Life, for what he has accomplished, whether you acknowledge it to be fair or not, would show other pro gamers in Korea, whether it be SC2 or another game, that the Korean government doesn't fuck around when it comes to fixing matches. I'm sure Life is well known in Korea because there's no way that someone who is as successful as he has been would fly under the radar (I could be wrong though). I just hope that this sets guidelines for other pro gamers and hopefully (though I doubt it) motivates e-sports organizations to educate and oversee their players, to avoid any future match fixing incidents. Save the good name of e-sports in Korea and around the world.
On April 27 2016 05:20 Clonester wrote: The betting is legal. There are several legal services in the west, where you can bet on esports matches.
The problem is that Korea forbids betting for all korean citizens. And thus every betting you have in korea is illegal and what is illegal anyway will attract more illegal stuff and more criminal activities. When your booking activity is illegal anyway and you are busted when you get caught, you can also start trying to fix matches by approaching starcraft kids. More money and you are in the illegal branche anyway.
Actually, a huge number of these so called "legal" sports betting and other fantasy sports companies are infamous for skirting the law and under constant litigation. Not only does it touch on gambling which is definitely a matter of contention and a huge social issue, the definitively illegal / immoral aspect of matchfixing, loan sharking, profiteering, etc leads to huge corruption in the sport / activity. That corruption then affects not only the outcome of matches but the treatment of players, the mentality of coaches and administrators, and the allocation of funds (legal or illegal, including any income the team receives from the fans). So the ramifications can get to a point where as a fan of a player or team you have no way of legitimately supporting them.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations?
The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident.
On April 27 2016 21:07 HornyHerring wrote: Suspended sentence, no prison time, just a hefty fine. He's not a danger to society or himself, so no reason to lock him up.
You would think that because of what happened to Gerrad, B4, and YoDa. But, I feel like they'll use Life as a scapegoat (poor word choice but can't figure out what to write) and punish him harshly because of who he is and what he's accomplished.
I can see it being like: We let the small fry go because we got the heavy hitter.
Life, for what he has accomplished, whether you acknowledge it to be fair or not, would show other pro gamers in Korea, whether it be SC2 or another game, that the Korean government doesn't fuck around when it comes to fixing matches. I'm sure Life is well known in Korea because there's no way that someone who is as successful as he has been would fly under the radar (I could be wrong though). I just hope that this sets guidelines for other pro gamers and hopefully (though I doubt it) motivates e-sports organizations to educate and oversee their players, to avoid any future match fixing incidents. Save the good name of e-sports in Korea and around the world.
But, I could be wrong.
None of the matchfixers from the Saviour scandal were jailed either so I think it might be the same this time. No idea what law is like in Korea but I guess they can't make it too harsh. But, I could also be wrong. At any rate, whether he goes to jail or not, he's fucked. But then again, he's young, he can make a transition to a different career - will be harder with a criminal record but still possible.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations?
The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident.
The most integral and blameworthy component of this matchfixing incident is Korean government policy. As with most vice laws the intent is great but the results are worse than the problem you are trying to fix. Who should put up the "charity donations" for players? Betting companies, legally, through taxes and the inevitable sponsorship deals that legal betting companies will strike with leagues, teams and players.
The fact is that the skill and dedication of players to games which tens of thousands of people want to watch is generating a lot of economic activity, a huge swathe of this economic activity is partitioned off from the rest and made criminal, this will have an indirect effect on player compensation.
The general tone of this thread recently has been that it makes no difference if betting is legal or illegal, I mean we had someone arguing above that a legal betting company would need to make exactly the same cost/benefit analysis for bribing players that an illegal betting company would and so legalising gambling would have no impact at all on match fixing and that is plainly nonsense.
I think in general the biggest punishment is the social ostracism which occurs. In this specific instance it's because of the life time Kespa ban and their teams, coaches, personalities, friends and teammates speaking out against them. SC2 must be Life's, no pun intended, life. Now it's gone. So I think this is more important in the way of punishment and deterrent for others than anything else.
What i really would love to have is sn interview with Life. I never judged anyone on purpose in my life and so won't i judge somebody like Life, but i am just curious what he has to say.
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations?
The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident.
The most integral and blameworthy component of this matchfixing incident is Korean government policy. As with most vice laws the intent is great but the results are worse than the problem you are trying to fix. Who should put up the "charity donations" for players? Betting companies, legally, through taxes and the inevitable sponsorship deals that legal betting companies will strike with leagues, teams and players.
The fact is that the skill and dedication of players to games which tens of thousands of people want to watch is generating a lot of economic activity, a huge swathe of this economic activity is partitioned off from the rest and made criminal, this will have an indirect effect on player compensation.
The general tone of this thread recently has been that it makes no difference if betting is legal or illegal, I mean we had someone arguing above that a legal betting company would need to make exactly the same cost/benefit analysis for bribing players that an illegal betting company would and so legalising gambling would have no impact at all on match fixing and that is plainly nonsense.
I'm skeptical legal betting companies would become sponsors. Are there any other examples of that besides Poker (a betting game)?
I also don't buy your implication that the most important part of matchfixing is low player compensation, which could be fixed by bringing in money from legal gambling. The player is still the one who plays the game. If not for the player playing the game, none of this other stuff would exist. The one who loses the match is the most blameworthy person. And I doubt the financial motive to matchfix would be removed just because the government is collecting taxes on betting companies and those companies (maybe) are providing money to teams/players. There could still be illicit 3rd parties wanting to pay someone to fix a match.
There are plenty of cases where betting companies sponsor teams, look at the English Premier League or the Australian NRL a bunch of teams in lots of different sports are sponsored by betting companies
On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote: Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft.
If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society.
Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK.
So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes.
I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses.
Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses.
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:
On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote: ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him.
Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think.
The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it.
There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc.
And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from.
I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it.
Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower.
And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations?
The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident.
The most integral and blameworthy component of this matchfixing incident is Korean government policy. As with most vice laws the intent is great but the results are worse than the problem you are trying to fix. Who should put up the "charity donations" for players? Betting companies, legally, through taxes and the inevitable sponsorship deals that legal betting companies will strike with leagues, teams and players.
The fact is that the skill and dedication of players to games which tens of thousands of people want to watch is generating a lot of economic activity, a huge swathe of this economic activity is partitioned off from the rest and made criminal, this will have an indirect effect on player compensation.
The general tone of this thread recently has been that it makes no difference if betting is legal or illegal, I mean we had someone arguing above that a legal betting company would need to make exactly the same cost/benefit analysis for bribing players that an illegal betting company would and so legalising gambling would have no impact at all on match fixing and that is plainly nonsense.
I'm skeptical legal betting companies would become sponsors. Are there any other examples of that besides Poker (a betting game)?
I also don't buy your implication that the most important part of matchfixing is low player compensation, which could be fixed by bringing in money from legal gambling. The player is still the one who plays the game. If not for the player playing the game, none of this other stuff would exist. The one who loses the match is the most blameworthy person. And I doubt the financial motive to matchfix would be removed just because the government is collecting taxes on betting companies and those companies (maybe) are providing money to teams/players. There could still be illicit 3rd parties wanting to pay someone to fix a match.
In the Czech Republic, betting gets a special tax regime (that will probably be removed soon because of corruption, but let us put that aside for now, almost everything needs to be changes because of corruption here ...) where as far as I understand, they pay less taxes, but have to put large amounts of money towards the sports they let people bet on. So this is not really a far fetched idea. There was also I think the main league in ice hockey sponsored by a major betting company for a long time ...
Anyway, I really don't know why this debate goes on for so long. Do people really still think in 2016 that making "bad things" illegal solves anything? Prohibition. War on drugs. Prostitution. So many counterexamples do exist that show how idiotic is banning stuff that people enjoy just because it doesn't perfectly align with your personal morality, do we never learn?
On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote: The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money
all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money
Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable.
I registered here just to post this.
Your points may or may not play a role. There can be much stronger motivators than just money and greed. Your view is just too one sided. You have to keep in mind that those gamers are still teens. Teens are stupid and make mistakes more often than we care to admit. Its important to provide them with more support and education than adults would require.
They may have just believed the dudes who said "every pro gamer does it", "its not so bad" or "noone will find out".
Those dudes who bribe the gamers on the other hand are the ones who know how to trick them. They are real adults. They probably did this many times. They are the ones who know what they are doing and what the consequences can be. And they sure as hell know exactly what lies to use in order to convince the kids.
In any case, some decent enlightenment (e.g. posters in their teamhouese, visiting seminars, or simple talks with their trainer) would have made them understand the matter and the consequences, and most likely prevented this from happening. If those two had an "Marchfixing will destroy your e-Sports carreer with 18 months jail and lifelong ban" on a poster in their team houses living room, they most likely would not have believed their lies and have not accepted such an offer.
As long as they are so joung, there needs to be someone acting as a parent and keeping watch. The adults in their surrounding need to be aware of the possible problems and be educated about the matters themselfes. Its not s surprise that this happened, when so much money is involved.
If they spend all night outside, take drugs, develop eating disorders, gamble, get into fights, etc. then someone must be there to notice and who knows what actions to take. The second goal after enlightening them, is to make sure those jung people do not get into situations where they are desperate and may accept such offers.
Good friends, a healthy social environment, education, watchful and supportive adults is what prevents such things - not better payment or unfairly severe punishment. Those gamers are still verry joung and are put in a highly competitive scene with lots of money involved. If left mostly alone, its not surprising that they are prone to develop disorders or get into money problems.
The team house and trainers should be the ones making sure they are adequately protected. In fact i would go so far as to assign them an authority person, who solely acts like a parent and is responsible for their behaviour and health.
Should I edit life's liquepedia page to say he's banned and is no longer part of the Afreeca Freecs. There was this guys who is trying to change article saying Life since joining was found out to be a matchfixing wanka.
On May 02 2016 22:16 zhadoom wrote:Good friends, a healthy social environment, education, watchful and supportive adults is what prevents such things - not better payment or unfairly severe punishment. Those gamers are still verry joung and are put in a highly competitive scene with lots of money involved. If left mostly alone, its not surprising that they are prone to develop disorders or get into money problems.
I agree with this strongly. Regardless of what you think of the individual matchfixers that fact that they keep popping up proves that the problem is systemic. It's not just a few bad apples and we have to consider the possibility that the current system is just psychologically unhealthy. Maybe spending 10 hours a day training in your teenage years, with few connections outside the game, is just not helping them become responsible, well-rounded adults.
The team house and trainers should be the ones making sure they are adequately protected. In fact i would go so far as to assign them an authority person, who solely acts like a parent and is responsible for their behaviour and health
But there is already such a person. It's the parents themselves. Parents should stay involved as far as possible. You can't just replace them with a random person, who probably has competing priorities and less emotional attachment, and expect the same results.
On May 02 2016 22:16 zhadoom wrote:Good friends, a healthy social environment, education, watchful and supportive adults is what prevents such things - not better payment or unfairly severe punishment. Those gamers are still verry joung and are put in a highly competitive scene with lots of money involved. If left mostly alone, its not surprising that they are prone to develop disorders or get into money problems.
I agree with this strongly. Regardless of what you think of the individual matchfixers that fact that they keep popping up proves that the problem is systemic. It's not just a few bad apples and we have to consider the possibility that the current system is just psychologically unhealthy. Maybe spending 10 hours a day training in your teenage years, with few connections outside the game, is just not helping them become responsible, well-rounded adults.
The team house and trainers should be the ones making sure they are adequately protected. In fact i would go so far as to assign them an authority person, who solely acts like a parent and is responsible for their behaviour and health
But there is already such a person. It's the parents themselves. Parents should stay involved as far as possible. You can't just replace them with a random person, who probably has competing priorities and less emotional attachment, and expect the same results.
On May 02 2016 22:16 zhadoom wrote:The team house and trainers should be the ones making sure they are adequately protected. In fact i would go so far as to assign them an authority person, who solely acts like a parent and is responsible for their behaviour and health
But there is already such a person. It's the parents themselves. Parents should stay involved as far as possible. You can't just replace them with a random person, who probably has competing priorities and less emotional attachment, and expect the same results.
Yes, but the parents are not there to notice behavior changes. The players live in the team house most of the time and they travel to other countries for tournaments.
They need an on site counselor who can observe and support them directly. Basically someone who has pedagogical education similar to a regular teacher and knowledge in drugs, behavioural disorders, etc. Someone like this often can help better than even the parents.
Yes, but the parents are not there to notice behavior changes. The players live in the team house most of the time and they travel to other countries for tournaments.
And that's a problem in itself. I understand that some baduk dojangs or European football academies are set up in a similar way, but these work much more like educational institutions than professional sporting teams.
They need an on site counselor who can observe and support them directly. Basically someone who has pedagogical education similar to a regular teacher and knowledge in drugs, behavioural disorders, etc. Someone like this often can help better than even the parents.
They would have to be hired by Kespa, or even a group outside the espots scene to be effective. If they are payed and hired by the team they will always put the interests of the team ahead of the players'.
I just browsed Aligulac today and wondered "where the fuck is Life?". Ooops haha. The fixed matches are hilarious. Life's just too good to do this convincingly, which is pretty ironic. They must have caught on to these strange matches somehow.
Did we ever get any news on punishment? I think an exception should be made for the life time ban due to his GOAT status. Fine him 70k and give him one more chance. He sure has racked up some prize money over the years, maybe it's worth it. And then take the money and fund another tournament in Korea. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
It's not exactly letting him off. That's a huge fine for the industry. Who knows if he even has it. It's not like top players in other sports don't get exceptions.
On May 31 2016 14:50 TRaFFiC wrote: It's not exactly letting him off. That's a huge fine for the industry. Who knows if he even has it. It's not like top players in other sports don't get exceptions.
For match fixing?
I can't think of any player in any big sports league that's playing again after match fixing.
On May 31 2016 14:50 TRaFFiC wrote: It's not exactly letting him off. That's a huge fine for the industry. Who knows if he even has it. It's not like top players in other sports don't get exceptions.
For match fixing?
I can't think of any player in any big sports league that's playing again after match fixing.
-Literally every football club ever condemned for matchfixing -Many football players involved in matchfixing, such as Paolo Rossi who won a World Cup after being convinced of matchfixing -Nelson Piquet Jr., still a racing driver after intentionally crashing out of a Formula One race -I'm not familiar with cricket but apparently three Pakistani guys (Asi, Ali, and ???) are back into cricket after several years of suspension for matchfixing -Three teams fixed the finish of the 2013 Federated Auto Parts 400 -If you consider doping as matchfixing, then you also have a whole lotta guys who dopped and came back And the list goes on and on
On May 31 2016 14:50 TRaFFiC wrote: It's not exactly letting him off. That's a huge fine for the industry. Who knows if he even has it. It's not like top players in other sports don't get exceptions.
For match fixing?
I can't think of any player in any big sports league that's playing again after match fixing.
-Literally every football club ever condemned for matchfixing -Many football players involved in matchfixing, such as Paolo Rossi who won a World Cup after being convinced of matchfixing -Nelson Piquet Jr., still a racing driver after intentionally crashing out of a Formula One race -I'm not familiar with cricket but apparently three Pakistani guys (Asi, Ali, and ???) are back into cricket after several years of suspension for matchfixing -Three teams fixed the finish of the 2013 Federated Auto Parts 400 -If you consider doping as matchfixing, then you also have a whole lotta guys who dopped and came back And the list goes on and on
Only know about the cricket one from those but cricket is super weird with match fixing. Some guys get life bans and some get a couple years. Those three did 'spot fixing' like bowling no balls at specific times. Kinda like throwing balls at certain times in Baseball I guess.
I think only one of them has come back to play, he was like 19 when he got caught and they were lenient, saying he was led into it by his captain etc. The other two got banned for long enough to basically end their careers.
Based on my understanding of the Korean society (which is very limited), there are lower possibilities of being allowed to return there than in many other countries.
as much as I'd like to see Life return, it would be just unfair to the other players caught matchfixing like Yoda, B4 etc. either ban them all or ban none. Also it would not really be a good example for other players considering matchfixing. Sadly there is 0% chance we will ever see Life again.
Life and others are old enough to differentiate between good and evil. They are responsible for their own mistakes and have to live with the consequences.
But the punishment needs to be fair. Teenager have not the experience to handle such situations properly. Also it was a one time mistake. If life is punished too hard, it will destroy his whole future. That would send the wrong message. The punishment needs to focus on rehabilitation. It is important, that he can start over as soon as possible and shape his own future without obstacles on the way.
Its always the small man, who suffers. Its always him, who takes the risk. Thats how the world works. Even if you would catch a big fish, the day after he will be already replaced by another. Give people no reason to work with mafia. Thats the only way to combat mafia in the long run.
On May 31 2016 14:36 TRaFFiC wrote: Did we ever get any news on punishment? I think an exception should be made for the life time ban due to his GOAT status. Fine him 70k and give him one more chance. He sure has racked up some prize money over the years, maybe it's worth it. And then take the money and fund another tournament in Korea. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Eh, they didn't even let SaviOr off, and he never actually matchfixed himself, don't expect KeSPA to make exception for Life
EPT
I get why Prime players match fixed, I get why Life match fixed, I am still waiting why Bbyong did it. Because I think he had some problems too, that's why you care about players with problems, to keep them strong so they can say "No".
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2015 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
