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On April 25 2016 01:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 01:41 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 01:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 25 2016 00:02 OtherWorld wrote:On April 24 2016 22:13 palexhur wrote:On April 24 2016 17:18 xtorn wrote:On April 24 2016 08:32 Shield wrote:On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote:
Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand. The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction. Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo. If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons. The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment. If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it? Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point. I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished. Fair enough, it's still kinda stupid though. Life was a star player, he probably had one of the higher salaries and his skill would have led him to win more money in the future as well. Going the easy and illegal route is still incredibly stupid because of his status in the scene. Players with no star power don't have to lose as much as he did, which would make the decision to do it "less stupid" , i think that's fair to say? :D
Yes, it would have definitely been "less stupid" if he had been a B-team player or something. I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series). Such a decision always appear stupid afterwards, like all bad decisions, but truth is that it was not that stupid.
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On April 25 2016 02:03 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 01:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 25 2016 01:41 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 01:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 25 2016 00:02 OtherWorld wrote:On April 24 2016 22:13 palexhur wrote:On April 24 2016 17:18 xtorn wrote:On April 24 2016 08:32 Shield wrote:On April 23 2016 05:37 Hikki_Hibiki wrote:
Isn't it a little ironic that we're getting all worked up over this yet Team Liquid literally has a confirmed match fixer on their Overwatch team?
User was warned for this post Why was this guy warned? Does Teamliquid really have a match fixer on their team? If it's accusation without proof, then I understand. The warn is probably to not steer the discussion in that direction. Yes and no. Yes because AZK did it in the past, no because he doesn't do it anymore, and was given a second chance by TL. I believe that this kind of second chance should also be given to Life, if Kespa is that unforgivable and strict then at least by the foreign scene, but for the moment everyone is happy to have joined the hate train. Choo choo. If I would say anything about Life's motivation to have done this, I would say... never assume that you know the whole story. While the infos clearly prove the act, they are far from being sufficient as to draw a final conclusion on his reasons. The answer is Yes, not Yes and No, TL Overwatch team has a matchfixer in another game, and for Life, they should ban him forever, that in esports is 3 years or more, if a player with nearly U$500 k earnings is so stupid to matchfix, he deserves the hardest punishment. If you could easily and illegally increase your earnings by 15% of the money you made for your whole life (!), don't you think you'd be very tempted do it? Tempted? Yes sure. But what kind of argument is that? At the end of the day your own moral compass has to kick in. And for most people it does. Giving a second chance to go pro would be a bad sign imo. "Hey if you get caught matchfixing for huge amount of money you get a second chance anyway, no big deal!" No, he can do whatever he wants now (i would even say streaming would be fine, but afreeca and twitch disagree), but playing professional again? Yeah no the trust is gone at this point. I was adressing his statement that someone with $400K earnings is stupid to matchfix for "only" $62K, because in fact, and contrarily to what he seemed to imply, $62K relative to $400K is huge, and even more so if you look at the little effort it took to win them. Nothing to do with how he should or shouldn't be punished. Fair enough, it's still kinda stupid though. Life was a star player, he probably had one of the higher salaries and his skill would have led him to win more money in the future as well. Going the easy and illegal route is still incredibly stupid because of his status in the scene. Players with no star power don't have to lose as much as he did, which would make the decision to do it "less stupid" , i think that's fair to say? :D Yes, it would have definitely been "less stupid" if he had been a B-team player or something. I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series). Such a decision always appear stupid afterwards, like all bad decisions, but truth is that it was not that stupid.
I guess it depends on how likely it is to get caught. If the gambling stories are true Life made a lot of stupid decisions in his free time though 
Also money isn't everything, if you simply break it down to eraning money the easiest way possible and we assume that it was very unlikely to get caught, sure maybe his decision wasn't "incredibly stupid". I see definitely where you are coming from.
If we assume that it is incredibly unlikely to get caught then we also kinda have to assume that a lot more of it is still going on. Maybe, maybe not.
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I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).]
It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic.
Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
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Holy shit... I hope they get what they deserve for sure.
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On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote:Show nested quote + I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody. When the job only has short term earning potential, the potential to earn money illicitly is both easy, quick, and assumed to be relatively safe, it is reasonable to do it. In fact, he would of been an idiot not to cheat. That is why cheating is so endemic across the scene, and will continue to be. It's always going to be economically rationale to throw. And most people dont get caught. Even now.
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On April 25 2016 03:36 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote: I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody. When the job only has short term earning potential, the potential to earn money illicitly is both easy, quick, and assumed to be relatively safe, it is reasonable to do it. In fact, he would of been an idiot not to cheat. That is why cheating is so endemic across the scene, and will continue to be. It's always going to be economically rationale to throw. And most people dont get caught. Even now.
It is true that the offer was so tempting. But then again, in place like Korean where the culture is strict, Life literally doomed his future. Now that he has been caught and judged, he has a criminal record. How easy do you think it is to find a job with one? Even if the job as progamer is a short term one, but risking your whole future in case your caught ain't really worthy it unless the money you will make will make sure you will happy without a job till the end of your life.
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On April 25 2016 03:47 Wrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 03:36 Dazed_Spy wrote:On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote: I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody. When the job only has short term earning potential, the potential to earn money illicitly is both easy, quick, and assumed to be relatively safe, it is reasonable to do it. In fact, he would of been an idiot not to cheat. That is why cheating is so endemic across the scene, and will continue to be. It's always going to be economically rationale to throw. And most people dont get caught. Even now. It is true that the offer was so tempting. But then again, in place like Korean where the culture is strict, Life literally doomed his future. Now that he has been caught and judged, he has a criminal record. How easy do you think it is to find a job with one? Even if the job as progamer is a short term one, but risking your whole future in case your caught ain't really worthy it unless the money you will make will make sure you will happy without a job till the end of your life. If you think the chances of getting caught are fairly low, the consequences of getting caught arent all that frightening. Life's within a scene where every team is corrupt, and half the players, and they've been doing it for over half a decade at this point, which is around a quarter of his entire life. Yeah, it would seem pretty bullet proof at that point.
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my only problem with this is that its way too lenient. life should get fined way more for hurting the integrity of the game as well as not be allowed to play sc2 (hell, any game) competitively again. the arrest time should also be longer. his behaviour was absolutely unacceptable.
bbyong at least had the decency to turn himself in so i can understand a milder sentence.
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On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote:Show nested quote + I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
Yeah, yeah, all that talk about "glory", "legends", "heroes". Breaking news, real life is not like that, especially when you consider that SC2 is SC2 and not soccer or the Olympics. Between gaining $60K for a fairly low investment and a fairly low risk, as Dazed_Spy very well explained, and being a "legend" of an eSports which has no guarantee to be still celebrated five or ten years from now on (I won't even talk about fifty years or more), I think most people would chose the first.
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On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote:Show nested quote + I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody.
You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time.
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It's simple really, Life got almost double what you get for winning the GSL, the hardest SC2 tournament around for losing one map in two seperate series, who wouldn't do that if they think the risk of getting caught is low? Especially with things the way they are now thanks to the stupid fucking region lock.
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France12908 Posts
On April 25 2016 07:45 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote: I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody. You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time.
Except he'd have gained more money had he not matchfixed since he got caught and won't earn anymore.
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On April 25 2016 08:49 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 07:45 CheddarToss wrote:On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote: I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody. You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time. Except he'd have gained more money had he not matchfixed since he got caught and won't earn anymore.
Maybe. But just as well he could have gotten wrist problems in half a year and earned nothing at all. You never know what the future holds.
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On April 25 2016 08:55 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 08:49 Poopi wrote:On April 25 2016 07:45 CheddarToss wrote:On April 25 2016 02:59 SwiftCrane wrote: I however strongly disagree that what he did was "incredibly stupid" (even though it's the standard thing to say about anyone who does something illegal) : as we've seen, no one ever suspected Life based on the games alone or based on skewed betting lines ; he was fucked because the investigation caught brokers and stuff, which in the end had him caught, and even considering he could have made an additional $200K in LotV, that'd be still boosting his earnings by more than 10%, all that without him putting his team at risk of losing (not in PL) or him giving up chances in tournaments (since he won the series).] It was incredibly stupid not because he got caught, but because he sacrificed the integrity of a game he has been supporting for so long and risked not being a part of it any longer. Being a hero to so many people while doing what you love doesn't have a price tag. Even risking it for 60k USD is pathetic. Perhaps it's just me, but I would rather die a legend than live as a nobody. You must be pretty young or one of those people who grow old but stay naive. In my country most people earn 200-400 bucks a month. Calculate for yourself how long it takes to earn 60k. Most of those people would kill for 60k let alone throw a couple of games. Korea has a higher standard of living than my country, but I bet it still takes several years till you have 60k in your piggybank. Now compare the prospect of working and saving for x years to earning that kind of cash in 20-30 minutes of your time. Except he'd have gained more money had he not matchfixed since he got caught and won't earn anymore. Maybe. But just as well he could have gotten wrist problems in half a year and earned nothing at all. You never know what the future holds.
Or he might have even made a million on match fixing alone before getting caught.
Yup, you don't even know what the past holds.
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Ha, that's true. I guess he gets to keep everything he made throwing matches that they can't pin on him, so it might have been worth it.
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ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
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wow just shocking they gave soo much $$ to throw, the gambling market is so much greater than expected.
honestly can't fault a 19 yr old too much for cheating to grab that much money. like many have already said, it's just too tempting. sure we can probably judge him when most of us are fairly well off economically, but switching positions, i think it'd be hard pressed not to make the same decisions.
it's a sad reality of gambling + anything else, hard not to be consumed by it.
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On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him.
I'm not excusing him, but I understand why, especially with the money involved and the current WCS
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i dont play sc2 so im just wondering... how did he fix the games to ensure that he lost 100% whilst being 100% undetectable?
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On April 25 2016 14:04 FFGenerations wrote:
i dont play sc2 so im just wondering... how did he fix the games to ensure that he lost 100% whilst being 100% undetectable?
It's pretty easy all things considered on a pro level to cover yourself if you're fixing, a second late to expand, a split second longer to react to pressure, going in a split second before your upgrades finished, they all look like a typical "bad day" mistake.
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EPT
