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Good article^^. Quoting from it:
A report by Eilers Research released last year estimated the size of the worldwide e-sports betting industry would exceed $23bn by 2020.
For the love of god, someone write an e-mail to the multi-billion dollar e-sports betting industry and tell them once and for all that what they are doing is immoral!
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We should make bets legal and the winner gets like a percentage of the money waged. :/
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On April 27 2016 04:52 Incognoto wrote:
We should make bets legal and the winner gets like a percentage of the money waged. :/
What would stop people from operating illegal betting sites where people keep all the money?
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The betting is legal. There are several legal services in the west, where you can bet on esports matches.
The problem is that Korea forbids betting for all korean citizens. And thus every betting you have in korea is illegal and what is illegal anyway will attract more illegal stuff and more criminal activities. When your booking activity is illegal anyway and you are busted when you get caught, you can also start trying to fix matches by approaching starcraft kids. More money and you are in the illegal branche anyway.
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That doesn't really make sense. You are basically saying that because betting is illegal, all the betters might as well just try fixing matches anyways. Thing is, that doesn't occur out in real life. There are different degrees of criminals. The vast majority of crimes are petty crimes. The vast majority of criminals don't decide to go "all in" in their criminal activities, so to speak. For something like this, it'll be under organised crime, which is probably why bbyong gave himself up. he is probably soughting protection from threats aginst him or his family from said organised crime. Where betting is legal there is also match fixing anyways, so nothing you said is true anyways.
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On April 26 2016 23:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I suppose for some people it is easier to pretend and to lay blame at a single individual's moral weakness than to imagine a wide spread culture which facilitates such. Make no mistake, Life did matchfix, but behind him is surely many more who are responsible. Blaming Life solely for his selfishness or greed is just an easy kneejerk reaction and intellectually lazy.
Of course there are other people involved, but we are talking about Life, what you can do? put in jail all the bettors who screw the other bettors when they rig results, gl with that lol, and btw you can rig results from legal betting so?, the Korean government is the one which has to act about this,but it is going to happen?.
Anyway every reason, cause, excuse, whatever you say about Korea and the system, the politicians, the culture, etc, isnt going to change the fact that Life did it for greediness.
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Legal betting is a problem anyway. People don't or hardly can no whether their online betting is actually legal and it easily goes through the wrong channels. If all betting was illegal, there would be a lot less casuals funding criminals who, in turn, pressure the players.
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On April 21 2016 18:52 Holdinga wrote:
So what amount of prison time can we expect for Life?
I guess a Life time in prison?
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
Suspended sentence, no prison time, just a hefty fine. He's not a danger to society or himself, so no reason to lock him up.
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On April 27 2016 21:07 HornyHerring wrote:
Suspended sentence, no prison time, just a hefty fine. He's not a danger to society or himself, so no reason to lock him up.
You would think that because of what happened to Gerrad, B4, and YoDa. But, I feel like they'll use Life as a scapegoat (poor word choice but can't figure out what to write) and punish him harshly because of who he is and what he's accomplished.
I can see it being like: We let the small fry go because we got the heavy hitter.
Life, for what he has accomplished, whether you acknowledge it to be fair or not, would show other pro gamers in Korea, whether it be SC2 or another game, that the Korean government doesn't fuck around when it comes to fixing matches. I'm sure Life is well known in Korea because there's no way that someone who is as successful as he has been would fly under the radar (I could be wrong though). I just hope that this sets guidelines for other pro gamers and hopefully (though I doubt it) motivates e-sports organizations to educate and oversee their players, to avoid any future match fixing incidents. Save the good name of e-sports in Korea and around the world.
But, I could be wrong.
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On April 27 2016 05:20 Clonester wrote:
The betting is legal. There are several legal services in the west, where you can bet on esports matches.
The problem is that Korea forbids betting for all korean citizens. And thus every betting you have in korea is illegal and what is illegal anyway will attract more illegal stuff and more criminal activities. When your booking activity is illegal anyway and you are busted when you get caught, you can also start trying to fix matches by approaching starcraft kids. More money and you are in the illegal branche anyway.
Actually, a huge number of these so called "legal" sports betting and other fantasy sports companies are infamous for skirting the law and under constant litigation. Not only does it touch on gambling which is definitely a matter of contention and a huge social issue, the definitively illegal / immoral aspect of matchfixing, loan sharking, profiteering, etc leads to huge corruption in the sport / activity. That corruption then affects not only the outcome of matches but the treatment of players, the mentality of coaches and administrators, and the allocation of funds (legal or illegal, including any income the team receives from the fans). So the ramifications can get to a point where as a fan of a player or team you have no way of legitimately supporting them.
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On April 26 2016 15:27 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it. Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower. And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative.
I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations?
The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
On April 29 2016 01:17 Ja.Y. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 21:07 HornyHerring wrote:
Suspended sentence, no prison time, just a hefty fine. He's not a danger to society or himself, so no reason to lock him up. You would think that because of what happened to Gerrad, B4, and YoDa. But, I feel like they'll use Life as a scapegoat (poor word choice but can't figure out what to write) and punish him harshly because of who he is and what he's accomplished. I can see it being like: We let the small fry go because we got the heavy hitter. Life, for what he has accomplished, whether you acknowledge it to be fair or not, would show other pro gamers in Korea, whether it be SC2 or another game, that the Korean government doesn't fuck around when it comes to fixing matches. I'm sure Life is well known in Korea because there's no way that someone who is as successful as he has been would fly under the radar (I could be wrong though). I just hope that this sets guidelines for other pro gamers and hopefully (though I doubt it) motivates e-sports organizations to educate and oversee their players, to avoid any future match fixing incidents. Save the good name of e-sports in Korea and around the world. But, I could be wrong.
None of the matchfixers from the Saviour scandal were jailed either so I think it might be the same this time. No idea what law is like in Korea but I guess they can't make it too harsh. But, I could also be wrong.  At any rate, whether he goes to jail or not, he's fucked. But then again, he's young, he can make a transition to a different career - will be harder with a criminal record but still possible.
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On April 29 2016 04:32 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 15:27 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it. Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower. And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative. I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations? The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident.
The most integral and blameworthy component of this matchfixing incident is Korean government policy. As with most vice laws the intent is great but the results are worse than the problem you are trying to fix. Who should put up the "charity donations" for players? Betting companies, legally, through taxes and the inevitable sponsorship deals that legal betting companies will strike with leagues, teams and players.
The fact is that the skill and dedication of players to games which tens of thousands of people want to watch is generating a lot of economic activity, a huge swathe of this economic activity is partitioned off from the rest and made criminal, this will have an indirect effect on player compensation.
The general tone of this thread recently has been that it makes no difference if betting is legal or illegal, I mean we had someone arguing above that a legal betting company would need to make exactly the same cost/benefit analysis for bribing players that an illegal betting company would and so legalising gambling would have no impact at all on match fixing and that is plainly nonsense.
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I think in general the biggest punishment is the social ostracism which occurs. In this specific instance it's because of the life time Kespa ban and their teams, coaches, personalities, friends and teammates speaking out against them. SC2 must be Life's, no pun intended, life. Now it's gone. So I think this is more important in the way of punishment and deterrent for others than anything else.
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What i really would love to have is sn interview with Life.
I never judged anyone on purpose in my life and so won't i judge somebody like Life, but i am just curious what he has to say.
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On April 29 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 04:32 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 15:27 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it. Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower. And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative. I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations? The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident. The most integral and blameworthy component of this matchfixing incident is Korean government policy. As with most vice laws the intent is great but the results are worse than the problem you are trying to fix. Who should put up the "charity donations" for players? Betting companies, legally, through taxes and the inevitable sponsorship deals that legal betting companies will strike with leagues, teams and players. The fact is that the skill and dedication of players to games which tens of thousands of people want to watch is generating a lot of economic activity, a huge swathe of this economic activity is partitioned off from the rest and made criminal, this will have an indirect effect on player compensation. The general tone of this thread recently has been that it makes no difference if betting is legal or illegal, I mean we had someone arguing above that a legal betting company would need to make exactly the same cost/benefit analysis for bribing players that an illegal betting company would and so legalising gambling would have no impact at all on match fixing and that is plainly nonsense.
I'm skeptical legal betting companies would become sponsors. Are there any other examples of that besides Poker (a betting game)?
I also don't buy your implication that the most important part of matchfixing is low player compensation, which could be fixed by bringing in money from legal gambling. The player is still the one who plays the game. If not for the player playing the game, none of this other stuff would exist. The one who loses the match is the most blameworthy person. And I doubt the financial motive to matchfix would be removed just because the government is collecting taxes on betting companies and those companies (maybe) are providing money to teams/players. There could still be illicit 3rd parties wanting to pay someone to fix a match.
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There are plenty of cases where betting companies sponsor teams, look at the English Premier League or the Australian NRL a bunch of teams in lots of different sports are sponsored by betting companies
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On April 30 2016 00:54 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On April 29 2016 04:32 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 15:27 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 09:23 Doodsmack wrote:On April 26 2016 07:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 26 2016 01:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 25 2016 18:23 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 16:13 Incognoto wrote:
Pretty annoying, imo, to see people "understand" match-fixing because it pays well.
It's incredibly fucking destructive to the scene, it's destructive to the player (Life can't play anymore), it's destructive to team and sponsors.
Even if you don't get caught, it's destructive. Low risk? Fuck that. More like low integrity. Life is at the top and deserves to be there due to his skill, but match-fixing destroys the very socle upon which he stood. It's fucking stupid and not at all understandable, much less excusable.
If crime were "understandable", then we wouldn't have laws which prevent it, would be? There's nothing to understand here, it's just a shitty, arrogant and low-life decision to make. I can't fathom how people down-play something so serious and claim it to be "understandable". there's nothing to be understood about destroying Starcraft. If crimes couldn't be understood, they couldn't be fought efficiently. Since the dawn of times, History shows us that even though laws exist, people break the law. That's why you need to understand why people break the law, because that allows you to prevent future crimes and make the law more adequate. That attitude that crimes should not be understood because they are crimes is some XIXth century shit. What's next, we should not talk about sex because it is sex? I'm not sure taboos lead to a healthy society. Additionally, understanding something doesn't mean that you consider it "good". Nazism can be understood (and had to be understood in order to get an efficient denazification), as in, people now understand why it was created, why it gained popularity, how it came to power, what are the majors tenets of its ideology, what led to its downfall, etc. That, however, doesn't make the actions themselves OK. So now, you can be all mad and stuff, blame Life as if he woke up one morning being all like "Hey ! This scene is so pure and perfect, it's disgusting. Let's matchfix a bit so that I can be a great evil and kill ESPORTS !", or acknowledge the fact that cheating is inherent to the human being, and even more so in a competitive setup, thus that the issue here is widespread. And I have no idea what you're talking about with "integrity" ; we're talking (e)sports here. Anyone who's been a bit deep within a sports scene will know what I'm talking about ; integrity only exists in the spectator's eyes. I'm not convinced you're only saying you understand life's actions because you want to see how it can be prevented or whatever. "Life didn't wake up and say I'm evil", "everyone cheats", "everyone else is doing it", "everyone cheats in sports". Those sound like excuses. Those are facts. I guess if you refuse to take the point of view of the criminal to understand stuff and stay on your moral high ground as if you were a perfect being who never ever deviated from their moral principles, they sound like excuses. On April 26 2016 04:22 Caihead wrote:On April 25 2016 19:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 25 2016 19:25 ZertoN wrote:On April 25 2016 12:15 Doodsmack wrote:
ITT: people excuse matchfixing because "it's reasonable to do something illegal if you don't think you'll get caught".
Yes it was incredibly stupid for Life to do, and yes you are incredibly stupid to defend him. this. i cant believe there are actually people defending him. Once again, no one here is defending him. What some people, including me, are doing, however, is (a) trying to find rational reasons explaining his behavior and (b) refuting the fact that he did this because "he's stupid", which is only a very little part of the truth, and is nothing more than a posture that allows you to refuse to think - and I don't like the posture of refusing to think. The problem is regardless of how much time effort you spend developing the scenario and rationalizing the problem, it just comes down to this: a) greed b) selfishness c) fucking money all solutions proposed by people in this thread: a) give progamers more money because they are greedy and would matchfix instead b) kespa and blizzard shouldn't be selfish (assuming they are), instead they should indulge the progamer's selfishness instead c) fucking money Nothing about promoting fair play, nothing about having healthy attitudes or a sense of community, nothing about the integrity of the game; just all corporate and social cynicism and how criminality is inevitable. That's what I'm trying to say since a few pages now : no, it doesn't come down only to money, even though yes, such a huge payout is definitely a big factor. Cultural and/or systemic bribery (potentially) is another major factor, for example. I fail to see how it is hard to understand that if you see a good chunk of people around you doing something, that thing seems more normal to you than if they're not doing it. Think about this : for a child who grows up in a violent environment, violence seems way more normal to him than to a child who grows up in a peace-loving, protective environment. And if you put that second child in the first's environment, he'll be shocked at first, but then he'll most of the times adapt to the norm. That's it. There are also a whole chunk of potential other factors, individually less important, such as personal moral standards, personal willpower to live up to those standards, personal financiary situation, easyness (or lack of) to cheat, pressure from organized crime, pressure from coaches/teammates, consciousness for the well-being of the scene, etc. And I don't even know where you got your "list" of solutions from. I guess you've thought up a good list of factors for intellectual curiosity's sake, but I don't believe the claim that everyone matchfixes, and I think it speaks to someone's character if they did. Your claims that "everyone cheats" and "everyone's doing it" are just exaggerations on your part, not facts (and by the way, if they were facts, they would be insurmountable, so your purported effort to identify ways to prevent this in the future would be futile). You seem to be implying we shouldn't mind too much that Life matchfixed, when in fact, we should, and we should condemn him for it. Nowhere did I say that "everyone cheats" or "everyone's doing" it, so of course it looks like exaggerations from my part if you're exaggerating my words ! I did say - or hint, rather - that in any competitive environment, cheating will exist, and that in general this cheating will be relatively widespread. That's a fact, and it doesn't mean that efforts to fight this is futile : if you're facing a widely corrupted administration, you can resolve the issue, though it takes time, money and willpower. And yes, I guess you can see this as me telling you not to mind too much that Life matchfixed. Because what's important here, if we want to consider the well-being of the SC2 scene, is not the isolated fact that Life matchfixed, but the highly possible fact that this is way bigger than Life alone. And if you keep brushing off Life's action as just being "stupid" or "greedy" stuff, then you're ignoring what is most likely the hidden truth. And that means Korean SC2 is going heads-on into a concrete wall. Thus, I'm not saying that we should let Life alone and just pretend nothing ever happened ; I'm saying that though what Life did is definitely condemnable, we should have the intelligence to look further than the "omg he's such an evil villain killing esports shame on him" narrative. I think from an SC2 community standpoint the only thing we can hope to affect is the players. The rest is illegal online gambling...good luck with that. You want SC2 players to be paid more? Who's putting up the charity donations? The player is the most integral and most blameworthy component of a matchfixing incident. The most integral and blameworthy component of this matchfixing incident is Korean government policy. As with most vice laws the intent is great but the results are worse than the problem you are trying to fix. Who should put up the "charity donations" for players? Betting companies, legally, through taxes and the inevitable sponsorship deals that legal betting companies will strike with leagues, teams and players. The fact is that the skill and dedication of players to games which tens of thousands of people want to watch is generating a lot of economic activity, a huge swathe of this economic activity is partitioned off from the rest and made criminal, this will have an indirect effect on player compensation. The general tone of this thread recently has been that it makes no difference if betting is legal or illegal, I mean we had someone arguing above that a legal betting company would need to make exactly the same cost/benefit analysis for bribing players that an illegal betting company would and so legalising gambling would have no impact at all on match fixing and that is plainly nonsense. I'm skeptical legal betting companies would become sponsors. Are there any other examples of that besides Poker (a betting game)? I also don't buy your implication that the most important part of matchfixing is low player compensation, which could be fixed by bringing in money from legal gambling. The player is still the one who plays the game. If not for the player playing the game, none of this other stuff would exist. The one who loses the match is the most blameworthy person. And I doubt the financial motive to matchfix would be removed just because the government is collecting taxes on betting companies and those companies (maybe) are providing money to teams/players. There could still be illicit 3rd parties wanting to pay someone to fix a match.
In the Czech Republic, betting gets a special tax regime (that will probably be removed soon because of corruption, but let us put that aside for now, almost everything needs to be changes because of corruption here ...) where as far as I understand, they pay less taxes, but have to put large amounts of money towards the sports they let people bet on. So this is not really a far fetched idea. There was also I think the main league in ice hockey sponsored by a major betting company for a long time ...
Anyway, I really don't know why this debate goes on for so long. Do people really still think in 2016 that making "bad things" illegal solves anything? Prohibition. War on drugs. Prostitution. So many counterexamples do exist that show how idiotic is banning stuff that people enjoy just because it doesn't perfectly align with your personal morality, do we never learn?
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