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On February 24 2016 22:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 22:37 geokilla wrote:
Why not make picking up Seige Tanks an upgrade? That way it'll be reserved for mid to late game TvT. Then we're on a timer to win in tvt before the game devolves into a cancerfest.
How is it a cancer fest? It takes out the power of early game Seige Tank harassment, which when I last read about two weeks ago, was a huge complaint by many. It also allows TvT to be less gimmicky while still keeping the ability to provide insane games like TY vs aLive. Plus it won't hurt late game Terran games either because the ability to do Tankivacs is still there.
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Cant wait for siege tank medivac to go away.
Really rubbish mechanic.
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Sad to see the siege tank nerf, not only because now you can't play tank against zerg anymore but also because it will buff mech in tvt which is boring to play/play against/watch. Blizzard keeping on their favorite hobby : nerfing terran.
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I'm all for tweaking siege tank damage but I'd be cautious of crazy damage increases. It seem silly that the logic for buffing tank damage is primarily due to other mechanics introduced in the expansion, at least from a game design standpoint. Tweaks should be made to the new mechanics themselves. For example, how come nobody is really mentioning decreasing the speed of unsieging tanks, or increasing corrosive bile delay, both which would allow tanks to micro out of the ability w/o the need for medevac pickups, similar to how lurkers can unburrow much faster than they burrow which allows them to dodge disruptor balls.
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On February 25 2016 03:20 Skyhook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 03:16 QzYSc2 wrote:
fuck these changes. siege tank pick up was awesome, people who couldnt control them want them gone so they can win too. Properly control them? you mean load up 4 tanks and 2 medivacs full of marines and doom drop the enemy terrans main? yea sick control dude.
yeah see you at gsl just doing 1 doom drop every game
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On February 25 2016 03:20 Skyhook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 03:16 QzYSc2 wrote:
fuck these changes. siege tank pick up was awesome, people who couldnt control them want them gone so they can win too. Properly control them? you mean load up 4 tanks and 2 medivacs full of marines and doom drop the enemy terrans main? yea sick control dude.
he's totally right you're describing hots not lotv.
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I really really really hope tankivac stays dead. Too many TvTs and TvZs revolved completely around that mechanic, which is kind of a gimmick that defeats the purpose of a siege unit.
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I find it interesting that people have so very different opinions on the tankivac issue, with one post against and the next one in favor. It's even more interesting to think about what the hell Blizzard will/can do with feedback like this.
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No more tankivac thank god.
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On February 25 2016 03:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Because they've had 7-9% more DPS than WOL and sieging without an upgrade requirement throughout HOTS They were generally overshadowed by bio+mine and other stuff in the early HOTS that i watched a lot of. It was about a ~7.2% DPS buff on the ROF. Show nested quote +Was it a powerful unit? I didn't watch much WOL, but my understanding is the tank was not a core unit in TvP even then. It got stronger in HOTS and.... became even more niche. That doesn't sound like a powerful unit to me. It was one of the core units in TvZ play and saw some usage in TvP for certain strategies. During the highest TvP winrate in the history of the game, siege tanks were used quite a lot against Protoss - especially with 1-1-1 strategies. Those were both before any buffs - so yeah, the counterplay has become better but with such huge buffs, there's plenty of room for it to leap out and become a popular and powerful unit. + Show Spoiler +^similar armies not uncommon look up 1-1-1 period in TvP
1-1-1 was an all-in that was defendable once Protoss learned to prepare zealot flanks. Then, +1 immortal range buff killed 1-1-1.
As for TvZ, zergs at that time didn't know the power of spread creep. Just look at the idra game you linked yourself. In that very same game, you also notice how his engagements are just head-on. Modern zergs now know the power of using ling mobility to set up flanks.
Tanks weren't overshadowed for nothing. Bomber famously used tanks in TvZ HotS when mines were nerfed, and lost even to Scarlett (who is a favourite foreigner of mine, but not top Korean level). Mines, despite their tendency to heavily friendly-fire (ForGG vs Stephano, mines killing loaded medivacs), were still a better option than tanks.
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After testing the map, I'd say mech is still crappy against toss, but mainly because revelation + tempest destroys any attempt to go mech (which may be looked into later).
As a whole the changes are good. The siege tank damage buff seems reasonable.
And the necessary tankivac remove is a fucking blessing
On February 25 2016 03:29 Ctesias wrote:
I find it interesting that people have so very different opinions on the tankivac issue, with one post against and the next one in favor. It's even more interesting to think about what the hell Blizzard will/can do with feedback like this.
Well the main difference in opinion is a difference in activity. I mean people who only watch TvT are glad and praise the tankivac, while people who play it hate it.
The difference also lies in whether you like starcraft to be a strategy game or a micro game. If you watch the Alive vs Ty game, which was very tense and interesting because the two players were so evenly matched, there was no strategy whatsoever. Get out on the map with tankivacs, and try to wiggle and take an abusive position. TY gained a lead in the game because he was the first to move out, and since tankivacs pretty much throw defender's advantage through the window, alive had to play the game from behind.
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On February 25 2016 02:35 PressureSC2 wrote:
Using an overlord to instantly pick up Swarm Hosts or Lurkers, while they are burrowed, only to re-drop them pre-burrowed in a new location - would also be a ridiculous mechanic. Why create a unit around having to burrow and become immobile to access its strong primary attack if you are going to give it limitless mobility in that mode? Well, actually, tankivacs are even worse, because the overlords do not heal the support units (marines/hydralisks) that would accompany to defend against air so you are actually using a combat unit to move the siege tanks around.
Anyhow, based on the same logic, why would this be acceptable for a "sieged up" tank? Maybe we could extend flight to burrowed mines and planetary fortresses and call it good design? This is only a game design opinion of course.
This. 1000x. Overlords also don't have a free 'get out of jail card' as well.
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I can't believe so many people are for tankivac removal...it's the most fun new mechanic in LotV and makes games so much fun to watch.
But yeah, let's remove it cause someone can't control it properly so it must be bad game mechanic...
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If we distinguish between picking up sieged tanks and dropping sieged tanks, then what happens to community preferences? Suppose you could eliminate one without affecting the other. Because both serve different functions and might have different proponents.
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On February 25 2016 03:05 Cyro wrote:It was one of the core units in TvZ play and saw some usage in TvP for certain strategies. During the highest TvP winrate in the history of the game, siege tanks were used quite a lot against Protoss - especially with 1-1-1 strategies. Those were both before any buffs - so yeah, the counterplay has become better but with such huge buffs, there's plenty of room for it to leap out and become a popular and powerful unit. + Show Spoiler +^similar armies not uncommon look up 1-1-1 period in TvP
Regarding TvP - I'm looking up the 1-1-1 and it seems like there was a variant for every occasion. No tanks, tanks, Banshees. An alternate interpretation is simply that Terran aggression was strong regardless of the units - like Protoss aggression in PvT in HotS and LotV. And any unit can become the beneficiary of a strong timing attack. Look at Reapers in TvZ. Reapers are a very very very very niche unit, and they are a very very very weak unit. That doesn't mean they don't sometimes win games and look useful A.F. because they're very strong during a certain timing window.
Regarding TvZ - creep spread, Ravagers (hard counter), Vipers (hard counter). 20% damage increase might sound like a "kind of sort of fair compensation" until you realize that the time when 20% on a unit that attacks every 3 seconds matters most is when those units can attack over and over and over. And maybe 200/200 tanks ARE great in TvZ (although apparently Ultra/Ling beats them) but Tanks don't get to 200/200 because they get rolled when you only have a couple because they only get to free a couple of times before they're taken out. Terran's aren't roflstomping Zergs using WMsome, they're fighting very close battles. If the WM replaced the tank it's not because the WM is too strong.
Think about it this way - are the tank's problems in TvZ and TvP fundamentally similar or different? Ravagers have range and initiative on Tanks. Vipers have excellent range on Blinding cloud (don't risk dying to Terran ground AA). Roaches, Lings, Ultras have no range but can survive long enough to get into the dead zone at which point tanks can have +1000 damage and it won't do them any good. Sound like any Chargelots, Adepts, Blink Stalkers or Immortals you know?
The tank needs a way to keep its distance. In BW that was mines and shitty pathing. In WOL that was lack of creep and cliff abuse. In HOTS it was nothing, and thats how many tanks we saw. In LOTV it used to be Medivacs - though note that even with Medivacs it's not enough to be a core unit against Protoss or Zerg, that's how "powerful" the tank is.
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And why should Tanks be core vs Protoss? You Terrans want every single of your units to be useful and core vs. both Protoss and Zerg. I also want to be able to play just Skytoss vs. every race, but I can't, because it's not viable. Do you see me and other Protoss players whining about it constantly?
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On February 25 2016 04:06 killerm12 wrote:
I can't believe so many people are for tankivac removal...it's the most fun new mechanic in LotV and makes games so much fun to watch.
But yeah, let's remove it cause someone can't control it properly so it must be bad game mechanic...
Nowhere has Blizzard stated they wanted to remove flying tanks because people can't control them.
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I found that some comments that have great ideas.
- Let tankivac a upgrade with huge cost or fusion core is required. If you can't break tank line, you don't have to research massive air units or maybe using to protect those tanks. Also Mech needs strong AA units too.
- Ravagers do no damage to building. It should be use to clear force field. Not pylon or bunker.
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Hm, would buffing vikings be a solution? I really like the Tankivac, I think it make for awesome games as terran can actually relocate, move around, and control positions like in BW. I can see how this would be an annoyance in TvT though... So what if, we buff vikings so they are good enough to just shread medivacs? That would help Terran vs Skytoss (something they probably need too), and remove tankivac issue.
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On February 25 2016 04:19 CheddarToss wrote:
And why should Tanks be core vs Protoss? You Terrans want every single of your units to be useful and core vs. both Protoss and Zerg. I also want to be able to play just Skytoss vs. every race, but I can't, because it's not viable. Do you see me and other Protoss players whining about it constantly?
A Protoss army can be Stalkers + things, or Adepts + things, or Archons + things, or Tempests + things. (Or Colossus + things throughout all of WOL and HOTS)
A Zerg army can be Lings + things, Banes + things, Roaches + things, Ravagers + things, Lurkers + things, Mutas + things, Ultras + things.
A Terran army can be Marines + things. In TvT alone, it can be Tanks + things. In HOTS TvP alone, it could be Marauders + things, which functionally makes almost zero difference because the gameplay of Marines and Marauders is nearly identical.
Do you see how one of these things is not like the others?
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EPT
