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On February 25 2016 02:07 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 02:04 slit wrote:On February 25 2016 01:51 Cyro wrote:
Why do you think tanks doing ~23-28% more DPS than WOL and sieging without an upgrade requirement are insignificant buffs?
Other races have changed some, but either way the siege tank is WAY better than it used to be back when it was most used.
Not enough DPS to justify it returning to stationary/positional unit with the current meta. If that's really the case then it can be fixed with further buffs or nerfs to counters. Having a situation where terran "needs" mobile tanks to live (even super powerful tanks not being enough) and protoss "needs" overcharge etc just because of a few zerg capabilities is pretty silly
Almost everything in legacy makes mobility a must, New units, random warp prism buffs or the economy
And without overkill there is 0 way to have strong but not OP tanks anyway
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Basically Hots with less minerals.
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On February 25 2016 02:07 Cyro wrote:
Having a situation where terran "needs" mobile tanks to live (even super powerful tanks not being enough) and protoss "needs" overcharge etc just because of a few zerg capabilities is pretty silly
I concur. LoTV as fun as it is (having nerd shivers every week through tournament viewings here) could benefit from a whole 3-race review and further balance. Doing it bit by bit, reactionary, endangers the overall experience again and again. But hey, I'm being overly unrealistic!
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On February 25 2016 02:14 Fran_ wrote:
Basically Hots with less minerals.
Terran hots vs legacy z/p to be precise.
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Well I`m abit so and so about this balancing considerations.
TvT will be really better to play with a more static Tank play, BUT i feel there is a compromise, that the tanks can still be lifted but become unsieged and put INTO the medivac.
On the other hand the damage buff will hurt TvT much. Marauders are useless. You are forced to go air against tank heavy play.
With one or two early tanks one is able shut down any early game agression from barracks play. So Mech and air should be the way to go.
So TvT will be (again) all about who has more tanks and who will get the better transition into Air.
In TvZ Marine Tank will rule the early game vs. the high percentage of roach ravenger play, but there is no way to punish fast 3rd hatches anymore, and with that said, T3 Tech to Ultras will still rule the Terran.
In TvP I dont see any big issues, as Protoss always had good couterplay to tanks and tankdrops.
In general I think the Liberator range nerf is obsolete, early game Liberator harass is not that big of an issue as I would consider it as very high risk play, that is well defendable, and involves much micro to position liberators well.
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On February 25 2016 02:12 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 02:07 Cyro wrote:On February 25 2016 02:04 slit wrote:On February 25 2016 01:51 Cyro wrote:
Why do you think tanks doing ~23-28% more DPS than WOL and sieging without an upgrade requirement are insignificant buffs?
Other races have changed some, but either way the siege tank is WAY better than it used to be back when it was most used.
Not enough DPS to justify it returning to stationary/positional unit with the current meta. If that's really the case then it can be fixed with further buffs or nerfs to counters. Having a situation where terran "needs" mobile tanks to live (even super powerful tanks not being enough) and protoss "needs" overcharge etc just because of a few zerg capabilities is pretty silly Almost everything in legacy makes mobility a must, New units, random warp prism buffs or the economy And without overkill there is 0 way to have strong but not OP tanks anyway
Well, you can always buff immobile strategies to the point that they have equal win chances. You don't have to have mobility if you have enough firepower to just kill the opponent without trying to play "their game".
Question being if that leads to interesting gameplay and if you can really buff immobile units so exclusively that mobile styles of the same race do not greatly benefit as well, making them imbalanced (and the only way to play properly to begin with).
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some games about the new changes i want to see them in action, i can't play for the time being
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Using an overlord to instantly pick up Swarm Hosts or Lurkers, while they are burrowed, only to re-drop them pre-burrowed in a new location - would also be a ridiculous mechanic. Why create a unit around having to burrow and become immobile to access its strong primary attack if you are going to give it limitless mobility in that mode? Well, actually, tankivacs are even worse, because the overlords do not heal the support units (marines/hydralisks) that would accompany to defend against air so you are actually using a combat unit to move the siege tanks around.
Anyhow, based on the same logic, why would this be acceptable for a "sieged up" tank? Maybe we could extend flight to burrowed mines and planetary fortresses and call it good design? This is only a game design opinion of course.
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On February 25 2016 01:51 Cyro wrote:Why do you think tanks doing ~23-28% more DPS than WOL and sieging without an upgrade requirement are insignificant buffs?
Because they've had 7-9% more DPS than WOL and sieging without an upgrade requirement throughout HOTS, and they were dead useless in TvP during that time and in 99% of cases only useful in TvZ as a stopgap to Ravens or an all in push. Now there's no scary Raven to tech up to but there is a Ravager to hard counter the tank.
Other races have changed some, but either way the siege tank is WAY better than it used to be back when it was most used and a powerful unit.
Was it a powerful unit? I didn't watch much WOL, but my understanding is the tank was not a core unit in TvP even then. It got stronger in HOTS and.... became even more niche. That doesn't sound like a powerful unit to me.
If the counters are really THAT good and invalidate tanks rather than just allowing micro-based counterplay, they can be adjusted.
And what if it turns out that the problem isn't one or two units per race, but four or five? Including core units like Roaches, Adepts, Zealots? Still worth it or are you ready to give up on the tank yet?
why is the siege tank useless in TvP while the Lurker often seems unstoppable in PvZ?! I think that it is largely because tanks' minimum range and friendly splash makes "just run into them" the optimal counter tactic. And P/Z have a LOT of units that are very very good at just running into things and surviving to tell about it. Of all the ways of trying to solve this problem, I genuinely think that giving tanks more range is the simplest.
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On February 25 2016 02:35 PressureSC2 wrote:
Anyhow, based on the same logic, why would this be acceptable for a "sieged up" tank? Maybe we could extend flight to burrowed mines and planetary fortresses and call it good design? This is only a game design opinion of course.
I would definately support your proposal to make PFs fly. Maybe for balance sake they can only attack air targets when flying. So late game I can have an air armada of PFs flying around and defending my bases. Make it happen.
On February 25 2016 00:43 liberatorgtb wrote:
Also, there is no tankivac option so it feels less micro and more slowly games (specially TvT) when this is a contradiction on what Lotv should be.
Says who? I for one am interested in a strategy game where not all units move with the speed of boosted medivacs (or faster).
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On February 25 2016 01:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 00:58 liberatorgtb wrote:Are you really posting that tanks alone cannot stop ultras + lings? Seriously? 200/200 Tanks on siege mode with perfect position can't stop Ultras+Lings which don't make sense. At least a draw don't you think? but not an a-move win for the Zerg vs the strongest Terran unit on the field. At least combine tanks with hellbats to counter the lings. If the zerg still wins you might have a point but I think the problem is more wizh ultras then with tanks.
Avilo tested the fight using hellbats plus tanks too but when lings are behind ultras then the tanks auto focus lings and ultras roflstomp the hellbats and tank line so easy. Im not a pro buff or pro nerf player because like some ppl say all the problems with starcraft 2 comes to the root of the design concept (limit cap, hardcounters, weird maps)
IMO Lotv spirit is fantastic because games are aggressive and promotes micro and different type of skill but this patch is a journey to the past.
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If medivacs can't pick up sieged tanks, ravagers will counter them completely. Good luck unsieging and microing them away from corrosive biles. There won't be a reason to make them in TvZ.
It might make TvT more interesting - depending on your preferences - but saying the damage buff is enough to compensate the nerfs in TvZ is just wrong.
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On February 25 2016 02:51 liberatorgtb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 01:13 Charoisaur wrote:On February 25 2016 00:58 liberatorgtb wrote:Are you really posting that tanks alone cannot stop ultras + lings? Seriously? 200/200 Tanks on siege mode with perfect position can't stop Ultras+Lings which don't make sense. At least a draw don't you think? but not an a-move win for the Zerg vs the strongest Terran unit on the field. At least combine tanks with hellbats to counter the lings. If the zerg still wins you might have a point but I think the problem is more wizh ultras then with tanks. Avilo tested the fight using hellbats plus tanks too but when lings are behind ultras then the tanks auto focus lings and ultras roflstomp the hellbats and tank line so easy. Im not a pro buff or pro nerf player because like some ppl say all the problems with starcraft 2 comes to the root of the design concept (limit cap, hardcounters, weird maps) IMO Lotv spirit is fantastic because games are aggressive and promotes micro and different type of skill but this patch is a journey to the past.
Just like Avilo I am a mech player. And let me say one thing as mech player about Avilo. Avilo whines alot. It just never stops. His good points are hidden behind his whines. For some reason I watched his stream ones. Constant whining about zerg air being overpowered, while completely thrashing his opponents zerg air. Ultras are supposed to beat that (imo). A more proper counter would be hellbat thor.
LotV only promotes micro. Just make a Moba where you can control armies if thats the goal.
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On February 25 2016 02:17 Zulu23 wrote:
So TvT will be (again) all about who has more tanks and who will get the better transition into Air.
Polt's medivacs/bio would like a chat with you, in one of your three LOTV aggressively expanded mineral lines.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
Like the changes a lot
I don't know why people say the tank damage buff is insignificant. SC2 is a well balanced game, and even small tweaks change the proportions significantly
And the tank damage buff is not a small tweak, it's a 14%-20% spike of AoE hellfire 
Hope they now also allow the liberators to hit buildings. It doesn't make sense that they decimate everything but the buildings
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On February 25 2016 02:54 Ctesias wrote:
It might make TvT more interesting - depending on your preferences - but saying the damage buff is enough to compensate the nerfs in TvZ is just wrong.
I do not think that anyone is saying that. I think most are saying - we will see if any further TvZ balance changes are necessary after the gameplay makes sense.
One thing everyone has to realize is that Terran will not be fixed with this patch. The race needs some sort of an overhaul particularly with respect to Thor, Cyclone, Tank and maybe Ghost/Marauder depending on how the Ultralisk thing plays out. So, even if everything is not 100% perfect if we just slighly change the tank, it's ok - we can deal with balance on many levels a bit later on in the process.
At least working on the tank is a step closer. Hopefully the Thor or Cyclone will be next so that we have a better answer to Broodlords and/or Tempest than "your race isn't meant to win a Starcraft game very often after the other player is able to produce 6 of unit X". Because those do not make for very exciting games to watch until the end.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Because they've had 7-9% more DPS than WOL and sieging without an upgrade requirement throughout HOTS
They were generally overshadowed by bio+mine and other stuff in the early HOTS that i watched a lot of. It was about a ~7.2% DPS buff on the ROF.
Was it a powerful unit? I didn't watch much WOL, but my understanding is the tank was not a core unit in TvP even then. It got stronger in HOTS and.... became even more niche. That doesn't sound like a powerful unit to me.
It was one of the core units in TvZ play and saw some usage in TvP for certain strategies. During the highest TvP winrate in the history of the game, siege tanks were used quite a lot against Protoss - especially with 1-1-1 strategies. Those were both before any buffs - so yeah, the counterplay has become better but with such huge buffs, there's plenty of room for it to leap out and become a popular and powerful unit.
+ Show Spoiler +
^similar armies not uncommon
look up 1-1-1 period in TvP
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Love it love it, by far the best balance patch for LOTV yet, these are the changes we need to keep the game improving.
I really don't understand Terran players love for the tankivac, it is a gimmick ability that was literally only put in the game for one reason, because tanks suck at their intended job of holding ground while immobile in siege mode. If they didnt suck, tankivac would have never been on the table anyways.
What makes the unit interactions in Starcraft so awesome to watch is that some units generally have clearly defined roles. The Siege Tanks role is to siege up and be a position that you can't really attack into. Not something that has to be micro managed away in a unit that is meant to help bio armies.
Plus, now Ravagers can be properly nerfed.
Can't wait to see more tank play in action, Koreans make it look easy but it's hard as hell leap frogging tanks while macroing while microing, I think tanks might even become OP with siege mode not being a research!
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fuck these changes. siege tank pick up was awesome, people who couldnt control them want them gone so they can win too.
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On February 25 2016 03:16 QzYSc2 wrote:
fuck these changes. siege tank pick up was awesome, people who couldnt control them want them gone so they can win too.
Properly control them? you mean load up 4 tanks and 2 medivacs full of marines and doom drop the enemy terrans main? yea sick control dude.
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EPT
