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On February 25 2016 03:15 jpg06051992 wrote:
Love it love it, by far the best balance patch for LOTV yet, these are the changes we need to keep the game improving.
I really don't understand Terran players love for the tankivac, it is a gimmick ability that was literally only put in the game for one reason, because tanks suck at their intended job of holding ground while immobile in siege mode. If they didnt suck, tankivac would have never been on the table anyways.
This. Also, has anyone ever considered the argument that when flying Siege Tanks (aka Tankivac) were invented as a new mechanic by Blizzard to combat P/Z, nobody including the game developers had really decided or even imagined that the Liberator could one day exist. The liberator was added quite late into the Beta phase after the Herc was removed. Are Liberators not, in a sense, a flying siege tank that replaces the need to hold onto the Tankivac concept? So then, why do we still need to beta test this game-breaking Tankivac idea, now that we have replaced it with the Liberator?
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On February 25 2016 04:19 CheddarToss wrote:
And why should Tanks be core vs Protoss? You Terrans want every single of your units to be useful and core vs. both Protoss and Zerg. I also want to be able to play just Skytoss vs. every race, but I can't, because it's not viable. Do you see me and other Protoss players whining about it constantly?
we don't want every single of our units to be core we just want to have options.
As a protoss you can play adept/templar, chargelot/templar, collossus stalker, disruptor stalker or just mass adept stalker immortal; what can terran play? bio + liberators every single game. If you would be forced in the same unit composition every single game you would understand our desire for something else to be viable.
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On February 25 2016 04:19 CheddarToss wrote:
And why should Tanks be core vs Protoss? You Terrans want every single of your units to be useful and core vs. both Protoss and Zerg. I also want to be able to play just Skytoss vs. every race, but I can't, because it's not viable. Do you see me and other Protoss players whining about it constantly?
No I think that he is arguing for more than Just the Marauder, Marine, Medivac, Liberator (pre-nerf) and WM to be viable. Contrast that to the games I play against Protoss where you see double the number of units being viable in the match up: Adept, Zealot, Stalker, Disruptor, Immortal, Oracle, Tempest, Phoenix, HT, DT, and Archon.
Of course I ignore the one reaper you make to scout and the one Cyclone to protect against the usual Protoss bullshit.
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Supporters of the Tankivac removal, you need to get over you excessive pedantry of what the tank role in the game should be. It's exciting to watch, that's blizzard's goal. Tankivac is great. Don't ever consider removing it.
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Can't agree more with some of the latest posts, T isn't composition-reliable, just the same and the same and the same again. It gets boring as a player and a spectator. Tankivac added some variation and shenanigans (something P always had - by design) to the mixture. Let's find some alternatives then.
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On February 25 2016 05:15 Mengmeng wrote:
Supporters of the Tankivac removal, you need to get over you excessive pedantry of what the tank role in the game should be. It's exciting to watch, that's blizzard's goal. Tankivac is great. Don't ever consider removing it.
It's not just about what you think is "cool to watch", because people disagree on that. SC2 is supposed to be a game, so the pieces in it should be designed to have a distinctly clear goal. Mech should be a more straight up powerful strategy, that comes with the cost of mobility. Bio should have the edge in mobility, but lose to stronger armies straight up. When you have Tankivacs, suddenly both playstyles are now the same. When the once-positional unit can now be whisked all over the place in a high-speed Medivac, that defeats the very identity of Mech play.
If you want units that have mobility and can be picked up by medivacs, you should be playing Bio, that's what Bio does. When you opt for Mech, you should be opting for a more positional strategy, where the placement of your units matters, with the Siege Tank at the core. If you take Siege Tanks and give them all the mobility of Bio by letting Medivacs do their thing with them, there's no choice in playstyle anymore, because both paths are the same.
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There are very few Protoss units that are not a powerfull force to be reckonned with in multiple matchups. I do not need to list them here, we see them all of the time in Pro League as part of compositions, or tech path choices, and in your last posts.
Build a composition based in good part on a mix of Hellbat, Battlecruiser, Thor, Tank and/or Cyclone for your Terran games tonight and tell me if you feel safe behind your depots, or anywhere on the map, even if you have the "right composition" of these units based on what your opponent is doing. No, you will be scared to death knowing exactly how this is going to end. Even if you trade army for army (which you will not), warp-ins and larvae will be there to ensure your defeat while you frantically try to regain an army.
We Terran lack in strategic options and reliable unit compositions, and so in MMMM and in spectacular micro we trust (unfortunately almost all of the time).
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0 compositionnal diversity
0 strategic thinking
That's what tankivac brought to TvT. Alive vs TY showed us the best of what tankivac can do, which is all over the place agression. But not only is it strategically poor, but from now on that the only think we'll see in TvT. Ever.
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On February 25 2016 05:15 Mengmeng wrote:
Supporters of the Tankivac removal, you need to get over you excessive pedantry of what the tank role in the game should be. It's exciting to watch, that's blizzard's goal. Tankivac is great. Don't ever consider removing it.
It's not exiting for everyone. So maybe stop being arrogant thinking that what you find exciting everyone else should as well.
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On February 25 2016 05:24 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 05:15 Mengmeng wrote:
Supporters of the Tankivac removal, you need to get over you excessive pedantry of what the tank role in the game should be. It's exciting to watch, that's blizzard's goal. Tankivac is great. Don't ever consider removing it. It's not just about what you think is "cool to watch", because people disagree on that. SC2 is supposed to be a game, so the pieces in it should be designed to have a distinctly clear goal. Mech should be a more straight up powerful strategy, that comes with the cost of mobility. Bio should have the edge in mobility, but lose to stronger armies straight up. When you have Tankivacs, suddenly both playstyles are now the same. When the once-positional unit can now be whisked all over the place in a high-speed Medivac, that defeats the very identity of Mech play. If you want units that have mobility and can be picked up by medivacs, you should be playing Bio, that's what Bio does. When you opt for Mech, you should be opting for a more positional strategy, where the placement of your units matters, with the Siege Tank at the core. If you take Siege Tanks and give them all the mobility of Bio by letting Medivacs do their thing with them, there's no choice in playstyle anymore, because both paths are the same.
Exactly. And the reason that the placement of your units matters with Mech, is because you take a risk and cannot defensively reposition your Liberators, Mines and Tanks in less than a few seconds. Zerg, Protoss or a more mobile Terran player can then threathen or overtake any bad decision making. Therefore, positional strategy and the risk/power that comes with it.
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Just add an ability for the tank that lets it hop a few hexes with a 5 second cool down. It's slow, but it can dodge Bile.
Or what if they could do a barrel roll, like in Star Fox.
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Ravager’s Corrosive Bile
Damage changed from 60 to 45 damage (+15 vs bio)
I don't see much of a difference other than tosses and terrans having a better opportunity to defend things they didn't scout.
Siege Tank
Damage increased from 35 (+15 vs armored) to 40 (+20 vs armored)
They keep playing with the siege tank to the point where it's gotten redundant.
Liberator
Casting range of Defender Mode reduced from 5 to 4
The fact that this unit comes out at Star port (with no need for tech lab or fusion core), this should have been in place from the start. Being forced to open ravagers just to defend liberators (without the guarantee that they're even going libs) is silly.
Medivac
No longer can lift Siege Tanks that are in Siege Mode
A unit designed for control and spacing no longer has the get out of danger free card?
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On February 25 2016 05:31 JackONeill wrote:
0 compositionnal diversity
0 strategic thinking
That's what tankivac brought to TvT. Alive vs TY showed us the best of what tankivac can do, which is all over the place agression. But not only is it strategically poor, but from now on that the only think we'll see in TvT. Ever.
which is exactly why the tankivac should stay. aggressive games are the most exciting. if i wanted to play your so called 'strategical positioning' and turtle with 50 siege tanks behind turrets and planetaries until i max out i would replay the campaign.
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On February 25 2016 05:52 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Ravager’s Corrosive Bile
Damage changed from 60 to 45 damage (+15 vs bio)
I don't see much of a difference other than tosses and terrans having a better opportunity to defend things they didn't scout.
Siege Tank
Damage increased from 35 (+15 vs armored) to 40 (+20 vs armored)
They keep playing with the siege tank to the point where it's gotten redundant.
Liberator
Casting range of Defender Mode reduced from 5 to 4
The fact that this unit comes out at Star port (with no need for tech lab or fusion core), this should have been in place from the start. Being forced to open ravagers just to defend liberators (without the guarantee that they're even going libs) is silly.
Medivac
No longer can lift Siege Tanks that are in Siege Mode
A unit designed for control and spacing no longer has the get out of danger free card?
This guy is not biased in anyway lol
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Man when did the decals size get changed, they're huge and ugly now 
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Personally, I think we need to wrestle the balance tweaks from Blizzards hands. This can not go on any longer, it is like watching a headless duck wandering about the yard.
Give balance tweaks over to the community where it actually belongs.
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On February 25 2016 05:44 atstapley wrote:
Just add an ability for the tank that lets it hop a few hexes with a 5 second cool down. It's slow, but it can dodge Bile.
Or what if they could do a barrel roll, like in Star Fox.
Tanks do friendly fire - I do not want a tank rolling over my Marines or hellbats thank you 
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On February 25 2016 05:58 Spinoza wrote:
Personally, I think we need to wrestle the balance tweaks from Blizzards hands. This can not go on any longer, it is like watching a headless duck wandering about the yard.
Give balance tweaks over to the community where it actually belongs.
Oh god please no.
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On February 25 2016 05:59 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 05:44 atstapley wrote:
Just add an ability for the tank that lets it hop a few hexes with a 5 second cool down. It's slow, but it can dodge Bile.
Or what if they could do a barrel roll, like in Star Fox. Tanks do friendly fire - I do not want a tank rolling over my Marines or hellbats thank you
Haven't you played Star Fox? They would bounce off, like the weird square bullets in Star Fox 64 :D
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On February 25 2016 05:31 JackONeill wrote:
0 compositionnal diversity
0 strategic thinking
That's what tankivac brought to TvT. Alive vs TY showed us the best of what tankivac can do, which is all over the place agression. But not only is it strategically poor, but from now on that the only think we'll see in TvT. Ever.
strategic thinking is often equal to a ratio of 2 turrets/tank.
Funny that you think this game wasn't about strategy when it went almost immediately to a low eco situation.
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EPT
