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On February 14 2016 08:59 Seeker wrote:
Starting from this page on, I will be moderating more harshly toward any mention of MarineKing's name. This thread has NOTHING to do with MarineKing. Do not talk about MarineKing even if you are defending him. Just don't do it. Please no match-fixing accusations on MarineKing or any other player if it has not officially been confirmed. This goes for other players too. -The_Templar |
On February 04 2016 20:50 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face. Armstrong is a bad example in this because he only lost the titles he admitted to have been doing doping in.
No he also lost his 2009 3rd place despite no proof of doping and denying that he was loaded at that time
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On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face.
I already answered to the Armstrong analogy above.
Murder only has immediate victims? Are you even serious? What do you think life insurance is for? Someone dying can also put in danger his/her own family (if if/she was the one bringing money home), his/her company (if he/she was the mastermind allowing hundreds of people to have a work), etc.
I understand your grief, and I share it, but justice is not served with grief. Life matchfixed X games? Very well, he shall be punished according to the law. After that, any organization is free to take back titles they gave him, though that would be absurd : if he won these titles in a legit way, the only reason to take them back is as a punishment. And, unless you also demand the price money that Life won, the only use of such a punishment is to scare potential matchfixers. Now look at it rationnaly : if someone matchfixes while knowing they can be banned from the game and go into prison for it, would the fact of losing some shiny trophies scare them enough not to do it? Yeah, lemme doubt that.
Any organization is also free not to accept Life anymore in their tournaments, which is actually something I'd agree on, as a prevention mesure.
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On February 04 2016 21:05 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face. I already answered to the Armstrong analogy above. Murder only has immediate victims? Are you even serious? What do you think life insurance is for? Someone dying can also put in danger his/her own family (if if/she was the one bringing money home), his/her company (if he/she was the mastermind allowing hundreds of people to have a work), etc. I understand your grief, and I share it, but justice is not served with grief. Life matchfixed X games? Very well, he shall be punished according to the law. After that, any organization is free to take back titles they gave him, though that would be absurd : if he won these titles in a legit way, the only reason to take them back is as a punishment. And, unless you also demand the price money that Life won, the only use of such a punishment is to scare potential matchfixers. Now look at it rationnaly : if someone matchfixes while knowing they can be banned from the game and go into prison for it, would the fact of losing some shiny trophies scare them enough not to do it? Yeah, lemme doubt that. Any organization is also free not to accept Life anymore in their tournaments, which is actually something I'd agree on, as a prevention mesure.
Okay, so he doesn't care enough about the game his fans or the esport scene enough to want to keep those trophies? The fact that saviour did this before him and he saw what happened to him what it did to BW wasn't a deterant enough? He doesn't deserve them then, that is rational thought here. Take his money away, as a punishment sure, if that is how it rolls in Korea. If he isn't punished except by the law then this scene becomes a joke to sponsors and it still ruins everyone else's chances to make it in this game. He should go down for this if he did it and you are defending an action that has done nothing but screw over the esport world everytime it's reared it's ugly head.
If he did all this and didn't care or think about the consequences for himself and everyone else then he doesn't deserve shit.
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On February 04 2016 20:59 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 20:50 Penev wrote:On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face. Armstrong is a bad example in this because he only lost the titles he admitted to have been doing doping in. No he also lost his 2009 3rd place despite no proof of doping and denying that he was loaded at that time
But he kept other titles, which is the main point
I don't really see the importance of this discussion I must say.
Everyone still knows how good sAviOr was and that he won those titles. You can't erase history like that. And if they didn't vacate those titles everyone would still hate him and know what he'd done. I don't think sAviOr would care much either way as well.
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Savior was erased from competitive SC. I don't see why Life shouldn't be.
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On February 04 2016 21:16 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 20:59 Philozovic wrote:On February 04 2016 20:50 Penev wrote:On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face. Armstrong is a bad example in this because he only lost the titles he admitted to have been doing doping in. No he also lost his 2009 3rd place despite no proof of doping and denying that he was loaded at that time But he kept other titles, which is the main point I don't really see the importance of this discussion I must say. Everyone still knows how good sAviOr was and that he won those titles. You can't erase history like that. And if they didn't vacate those titles everyone would still hate him and know what he'd done. I don't think sAviOr would care much either way as well.
Well, it isn't that important of a discussion, sAviOr was a boss player, i wont deny that, or more couldnt. But, especially in esports, you don't know how far back they were fixing especially at that high of a level. It makes every victory or loss circumspect because there is usually more than one player involved. so it's safer to black list and strike their name from the champ logs.
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On February 04 2016 21:20 Ej_ wrote:
Savior was erased from competitive SC. I don't see why Life shouldn't be.
Savior should not have been erased, and LIfe should'nt be erased either.
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So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles.
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On February 04 2016 21:33 OtherWorld wrote:
So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles.
It's done to a large extent do deter others. They have literally done everything they could to show that doing this will have bad consequences for you. It doesn't make any less sense than putting people to jail, honestly.
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On February 04 2016 21:36 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 21:33 OtherWorld wrote:
So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles. It's done to a large extent do deter others. They have literally done everything they could to show that doing this will have bad consequences for you. It doesn't make any less sense than putting people to jail, honestly.
I don't think that's true. I think it has more to do with satisfying the public's outrage. Vacated titles is the least of your worries when caught imo
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On February 04 2016 21:40 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 21:36 opisska wrote:On February 04 2016 21:33 OtherWorld wrote:
So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles. It's done to a large extent do deter others. They have literally done everything they could to show that doing this will have bad consequences for you. It doesn't make any less sense than putting people to jail, honestly. I don't think that's true. I think it has more to do with satisfying the public's outrage. Vacated titles is the least of your worries when caught imo
Thank you
The will to satisfy the people's anger should not take over justice
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I could understand to deny his titles when there is proof that he was involved in matchfixing back then.
But if it is 'only' proven that he fixed matches after all his titles, i don't think it is fair to rewrite history.
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Interesting. I learned Damnatio Memoriae is started in occidental nations.
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On February 04 2016 21:20 Ej_ wrote:
Savior was erased from competitive SC. I don't see why Life shouldn't be.
I wasn't into eSports back then, but wasn't SaviOr involved in the entire organized crime scene back then? Meaning: He didn't only fix his own matches, but organized the entire thing?
But still: I don't think match fixing should result in erasing all his results. The comparison to doping is bad because of a simple reason: Fixing a match can't possibly give you an advantage to win something - doping definitely does. You can bet on a specific timing (-> no advantage) or on a loss by yourself (-> how can throwing a game result in you winning a championship?). While match fixing is much more likely to weaken your performance, doping 100% of the time improves your performance.
Banning someone from the scene is definitely an appropriate reaction to match fixing, but erasing all his results seems weird.
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On February 04 2016 21:33 OtherWorld wrote:
So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles.
A good analogy this time, nice. For one, being stripped of their titles doesn't mean they won or lost just that the games lost meaning. I haven't denied their skills and have even pointed out my respect for sAviOr'S skills. They were the best in the world, which makes their acts more deplorable. Personally Life was one of my favorite Zerg, does it make him any less skilled of a player if he match fixed? No. Does it make him less of a professional competior, yes.
If you recall Napoleon was stripped of all his shit and then permabanned on an isle for the rest of his life.
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God this can't be true, first Savior, now Life? Fuck my life...
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On February 04 2016 21:56 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 21:20 Ej_ wrote:
Savior was erased from competitive SC. I don't see why Life shouldn't be. I wasn't into eSports back then, but wasn't SaviOr involved in the entire organized crime scene back then? Meaning: He didn't only fix his own matches, but organized the entire thing? But still: I don't think match fixing should result in erasing all his results. The comparison to doping is bad because of a simple reason: Fixing a match can't possibly give you an advantage to win something - doping definitely does. You can bet on a specific timing (-> no advantage) or on a loss by yourself (-> how can throwing a game result in you winning a championship?). While match fixing is much more likely to weaken your performance, doping 100% of the time improves your performance. Banning someone from the scene is definitely an appropriate reaction to match fixing, but erasing all his results seems weird.
Yeah, he still technically has those results just not his titles. He is still listed as winning those tournaments.
Edit: Not sure about in Korea though, liquipedia wise, yes.
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On February 04 2016 21:44 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 21:40 Penev wrote:On February 04 2016 21:36 opisska wrote:On February 04 2016 21:33 OtherWorld wrote:
So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles. It's done to a large extent do deter others. They have literally done everything they could to show that doing this will have bad consequences for you. It doesn't make any less sense than putting people to jail, honestly. I don't think that's true. I think it has more to do with satisfying the public's outrage. Vacated titles is the least of your worries when caught imo Thank you The will to satisfy the people's anger should not take over justice
Sonic for president!
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 04 2016 21:33 OtherWorld wrote:
So basically you're rewriting history with the sole goal of shaming one player, you're denying that he was once the best player of the world (both in sAviOr's and Life's case) because they cheated once.
I don't get it. I get that you'd not allow them to play again to avoid them having a bad influence on others, but I don't see why you would rewrite history like that. Because Napoleon lost in the end doesn't mean we're denying him having won all these battles.
Your analogy seems off to me, it could definitely be applied here if he lost on purpose or whatever. Like some country paid him to waste his armies or something...
Match-fixing that had place on any professional level, if proven, should be punished harshly. Attempted poor match-fixing should be penalized properly. If you are capable of match-fixing, you should not be allowed to play ever. And I'm sure what Koreans did with sAviOr back then by stripping him of his titles connects somehow to their culture and how they perceive respect to something, like competition. I can understand that if he was still considered champion of these tournaments he won it would be a disrespect for those who truly gave it an honest 100%. Just guessing, I know nothing of Korean culture except for stories of racism, xenophobia and such here and there.
If it's all proven, Life did what he did, but you can't deny that there is going to be some distaste when looking at his previous accomplishments. He may or may not match-fix in them. Probably not, but it doesn't take away that he was definitely capable of doing it. Of course given that he did that willingly, MC was apparently once threatened to fix his matches, so this may be the case. We'll see when the investigation is over.
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On February 04 2016 21:16 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 20:59 Philozovic wrote:On February 04 2016 20:50 Penev wrote:On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face. Armstrong is a bad example in this because he only lost the titles he admitted to have been doing doping in. No he also lost his 2009 3rd place despite no proof of doping and denying that he was loaded at that time But he kept other titles, which is the main point I don't really see the importance of this discussion I must say. Everyone still knows how good sAviOr was and that he won those titles. You can't erase history like that. And if they didn't vacate those titles everyone would still hate him and know what he'd done. I don't think sAviOr would care much either way as well.
I was not arguing I was just saying that all that Armstrong ever won got erased from 1998 (EPO using) even if there is no proof of him cheating in 2009, if you apply that to life (again I don't even see how it's comparable, I think it's a terrible analogy) evey event he participated since he fixed would be stripped from him.
But I agree with OtherWorld I never understood why sAviOr was stripped from his tittle by KESPA. But I never followed BW. Even if he fixed, life will still be GOAT (I agree he should be ban forever though)
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EPT
