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On January 30 2016 10:47 Charoisaur wrote:
he still doesn't realize that he's the only guy in the world who enjoys the current mappool.
Talking about how awesome his shit is doesn't make me think otherwise.
david kims ego is really damaging to this game.
There is also Tasteless, however Tasteless enjoys himself some nice Protoss cheese as well.
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And still no word about, how buggy it can sometimes be to create a Lobby and invite your friends in it in the Arcade... . But I mean, thats known for like a year?
Anyways, the time for constructive criticism has passed, since Blizzard has shown to ignore it anyways. Massive shitposting at least provoked this reaction so it shows to be more effective. Keep it up Reddit and TL.
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On January 30 2016 17:21 playa wrote:
Confirmation bias. Kim is the man. Don't be fooled, he already knows what's up. I don't know why you guys are making it hard on him to find someone who shares his facts on how the game should be, so he can say "I guess you're not all clueless, after all." Stop bringing Kim shame. Either get on his level or stop providing feedback. Looking for reinforcement, not trashy opinions from plebs. If everyone mattered/weren't ignorant, they'd just do polls. If only we all had the insight of the king of balance/SC knowledge, imagine how good we would be at this game. Guy is too good.
LOL, post of the topic.
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LotV is full of broken promises and they wonder why people are angry?
Macro mechanics.
Ladder udpates being promised early. Ladder then goes mad and is unplayable if you're a pro.
Map rotation, DK told multiple times to multiple persons that a map should not be there for more than 6months.
Aggressive stance on balance.
Compare the WCS announcement at Blizzcon and the reality of it.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On January 30 2016 19:14 404AlphaSquad wrote:
And still no word about, how buggy it can sometimes be to create a Lobby and invite your friends in it in the Arcade... . But I mean, thats known for like a year?
Anyways, the time for constructive criticism has passed, since Blizzard has shown to ignore it anyways. Massive shitposting at least provoked this reaction so it shows to be more effective. Keep it up Reddit and TL.
I agree, there was a ton of constructive criticism for many months and it got these few posts about the ladder and next seasons which were even worse than the state it was in before (when people were giving the constructive criticism). If people are not heard they will (and really should) escalate.
That should be taken as "holy shit we were actually wrong and didn't understand the community reaction properly before, what can we do to improve the situation"
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Map diversity is needed, without it the game will become boring. You cannot counter that arguement, the game will be figured out a protoss will know exactly how to defend the 30 all-ins that terran can execute they will play Rain/Classic style with heavy defence and macro focus. Since no one can defeat protoss(any race really) early unless they do a critical mistake while defending all games will go for the same "ultimate" build or possibly be diversified by 2-3 slightly different BO (for example with focus towards skytoss or groundtoss, very basic). Then after that the gamers will figure out ultimate playstyle in the late game and everyone will play the same (For example broodlord infestor, protoss deathball, raven mech).
A strategy game will eventually end being like that unless:
1) The game keeps getting changed (patched) not balance patch, change patch. With no other reason than to shake things up. This naturally occured during SC2 due to expansions. Those wil no longer come.
2) The maps diversify the strategy so much that there are very few maps that can actually play out the same.
So unless you want Starcraft 2 to be boiled down to everyone playing the exact same style, macro endgame like broodlord´-infestor, SH-turtle, raven-mech or protoss-deathball eras get it through your head. This is a MUST for the future of SC2, the only reason SC2 design team backed up on this before was because they had an expansion left to shake things up. That they refuse to backdown on this now shows that they are actually far more competent than most of you when it comes to design SC2 for a far away future.
Edit: Not saying that the maps are good, just saying very different maps are needed.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
This naturally occured during SC2 due to expansions. Those wil no longer come.
With LOTV being the last expansion, the sc2 team has promised to continue evaluating and changing the game in the future - even to the point of mechanic changes, unit reworks etc which would previously not have been considered without an expansion. It remains to be seen if that will actually happen though
Different maps are good, but you can't have maps that don't work properly in certain matchups on ladder and tournament play for multiple seasons.
You should not hold community map competions which specifically exclude any kind of standard/safe/balanced map; we are in need of a better core map pool for LOTV more than in any other expansion - one that works solidly in all matchups before the priority goes to wonky stuff to make the game more interesting!
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On January 30 2016 19:38 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +This naturally occured during SC2 due to expansions. Those wil no longer come. With LOTV being the last expansion, the sc2 team has promised to continue evaluating and changing the game in the future - even to the point of mechanic changes, unit reworks etc which would previously not have been considered without an expansion. It remains to be seen if that will actually happen though Different maps are good, but you can't have maps that don't work properly in certain matchups on ladder and tournament play for multiple seasons.
You are right of course, show me which map there is a 55+% winrate across the board for one race vs another.
I will also argue that there have been way too few pro games played to know if this balance is also true at the highest level. We haven't even seen a whole season of GSL or proleague.
Daedelous point caused an uproar because players were used to getting to play the same style on every map, many were uncreative and others refused to adapt. These kinds of changes to a meta through a map should come with maps and they should be expected, the players should be given enough time to properly explore the possiblities of the map and how to play to get around the perceived advantage the other race(s) have.
No proleague and gsl season? We have way too little for us to even be able to state that the map is actually unbalanced on the highest level.
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On January 30 2016 19:48 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2016 19:38 Cyro wrote:This naturally occured during SC2 due to expansions. Those wil no longer come. With LOTV being the last expansion, the sc2 team has promised to continue evaluating and changing the game in the future - even to the point of mechanic changes, unit reworks etc which would previously not have been considered without an expansion. It remains to be seen if that will actually happen though Different maps are good, but you can't have maps that don't work properly in certain matchups on ladder and tournament play for multiple seasons. You are right of course, show me which map there is a 55+% winrate across the board for one race vs another. I will also argue that there have been way too few pro games played to know if this balance is also true at the highest level. We haven't even seen a whole season of GSL or proleague. Daedelous point caused an uproar because players were used to getting to play the same style on every map, many were uncreative and others refused to adapt. These kinds of changes to a meta through a map should come with maps and they should be expected, the players should be given enough time to properly explore the possiblities of the map and how to play to get around the perceived advantage the other race(s) have. No proleague and gsl season? We have way too little for us to even be able to state that the map is actually unbalanced on the highest level.
Prion PvZ is already hard and is unwinnable after the patch. Central Protocol PvZ if the Z isn't braindead he won't die to the 2b all in from the P.
If we see a P on Prion this season in Proleague it's incredible.
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On January 30 2016 11:51 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2016 10:55 Penev wrote:On January 30 2016 10:51 Kurbz wrote:On January 30 2016 10:47 Charoisaur wrote:
david kims ego is really damaging to this game. This. Very much this. This is not constructive criticism in the slightest The maps are not fun to play on. If it does not FEEL fun to play on you don't have to articulate a reason. You play on it and its simply not fun. If you play on psion terraces you feel Zerg just roll over you . If you play on central protocol you feel like you have to cheese or do some dumb strategy- in blizzards euphemism "creative strategies".
Speaking of ego and euphemisms. I don't think they actually ever admitted they made a mistake before. Did they ever say Brood Lord Infestor was their fault? When there was swarmhosts vs zerg and protoss they used their little euphemism "stalemate games". They can't admit that when they make a mistake and create gameplay that is not fun.
The italics part is constructive criticism. "david kims ego is really damaging to this game" followed by "This Very much this"
is not
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I mean I'll state again that I truly appreciate the feedback updates. The information makes a huge difference compared to just waiting for some patch notes to appear. Since it began with LotV it's been a really good thing, I play some other games where no such interaction is there and it's a bad experience.
I also understand pro-feedback on balance can be shoddy at best, most players are biased towards their own race/playstyle so it must be very hard to get a correct picture overall.
But how could they not expect negative reactions to not bringing any new maps for the new season? Or putting the ladder changes more than half a year away? There is no constructive feedback to give other than disappointment. And it's the internet where some people have no filter in spouting their disappointment. I don't understand why they are surprised about this.
If it takes a long time to change any single thing, the game loses momentum and players move on, and it's really hard to get them back. It's been the case in WoL and HotS. I had the impression with LotV changes would happen quicker and more frequently. Getting no new maps, and have all the improvements at least half a year away means that not much has changed unfortunately and this is why people are upset.
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On January 30 2016 19:55 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2016 19:48 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 30 2016 19:38 Cyro wrote:This naturally occured during SC2 due to expansions. Those wil no longer come. With LOTV being the last expansion, the sc2 team has promised to continue evaluating and changing the game in the future - even to the point of mechanic changes, unit reworks etc which would previously not have been considered without an expansion. It remains to be seen if that will actually happen though Different maps are good, but you can't have maps that don't work properly in certain matchups on ladder and tournament play for multiple seasons. You are right of course, show me which map there is a 55+% winrate across the board for one race vs another. I will also argue that there have been way too few pro games played to know if this balance is also true at the highest level. We haven't even seen a whole season of GSL or proleague. Daedelous point caused an uproar because players were used to getting to play the same style on every map, many were uncreative and others refused to adapt. These kinds of changes to a meta through a map should come with maps and they should be expected, the players should be given enough time to properly explore the possiblities of the map and how to play to get around the perceived advantage the other race(s) have. No proleague and gsl season? We have way too little for us to even be able to state that the map is actually unbalanced on the highest level. Prion PvZ is already hard and is unwinnable after the patch. Central Protocol PvZ if the Z isn't braindead he won't die to the 2b all in from the P. If we see a P on Prion this season in Proleague it's incredible.
Or they'll just find a wacky build that will shut every one up? 
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On January 30 2016 20:11 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I mean I'll state again that I truly appreciate the feedback updates. The information makes a huge difference compared to just waiting for some patch notes to appear. Since it began with LotV it's been a really good thing, I play some other games where no such interaction is there and it's a bad experience.
I also understand pro-feedback on balance can be shoddy at best, most players are biased towards their own race/playstyle so it must be very hard to get a correct picture overall.
But how could they not expect negative reactions to not bringing any new maps for the new season? Or putting the ladder changes more than half a year away? There is no constructive feedback to give other than disappointment. And it's the internet where some people have no filter in spouting their disappointment. I don't understand why they are surprised about this.
If it takes a long time to change any single thing, the game loses momentum and players move on, and it's really hard to get them back. It's been the case in WoL and HotS. I had the impression with LotV changes would happen quicker and more frequently. Getting no new maps, and have all the improvements at least half a year away means that not much has changed unfortunately and this is why people are upset.
I'd say this post is constructive feedback for sure. DK and his team should read this.
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On January 30 2016 10:42 The_Templar wrote:
I don't like this line of thinking. The stand-out features of Dusk Towers and Ulrena are almost always bad things for a map to have.
Also, I don't see why blizzard couldn't have made a few new maps for next season...
They probably could have, but perhaps want to get more experience in judging the current maps. Another reason could be to provide pro players a more stable entry into season 1.
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Prion Terraces – changing golds to normal expansions
While this is an interesting idea on paper, it proves to be bad in practice. Changing this will take away the main reason that makes this map unique, and different from standard maps that don’t have any stand out feature about them. Keep in mind, we’re not saying the map is perfect, we’re just saying let’s try to look for another area that can be tweaked that still keeps this unique factor.
if a map is justified solely by the use of gold bases, and sucks without them, it's a bad map.
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On January 30 2016 20:57 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +
Prion Terraces – changing golds to normal expansions
While this is an interesting idea on paper, it proves to be bad in practice. Changing this will take away the main reason that makes this map unique, and different from standard maps that don’t have any stand out feature about them. Keep in mind, we’re not saying the map is perfect, we’re just saying let’s try to look for another area that can be tweaked that still keeps this unique factor.
if a map is justified solely by the use of gold bases, and sucks without them, it's a bad map.
The thing is, it's actually a good map without gold bases at the 3rd/4th. They want to look at other areas to fix the map, when it's literally the gold bases that are the only bad thing about the maps.
The position of the 5th base on the cliff is very interesting and there are different expansion patterns. Terrans like to take that base as their 4th since it can be protected by tanks, which can then even cover the attack path in the middle. Maybe the gold bases in the middle would suddenly come into play, if the other gold bases were gone.
Honestly the map provides enough interesting features, but it's all overshadowed by how bad the gold bases at the 3rd and 4th are.
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Not sure why some people here still expect constructive criticism about the map pool.
A lot have been said already by the community. DK disagrees and still thinks it's fun, diverse and a cool factor to die to a Zerg mineral-heavy army on Prion because you can hardly prevent Zerg from taking gold without all-ining and you can hardly take 3rd in a timely fashion because of zerglings/ravagers running amok, there is not much to say. I don't even want to talk about Central Protocol anymore.
What is the point of so-called 2 ways communication if most of the answers are going to be: "nobody knows really who is right, but since this is not the design philosophy we're looking for, nope."?
P.S.: I just had a look into the map submission guidelines and find it very depressing how they dare to defend their "map diversity" mantra when they put so much "recommendations" to follow. So much for diversity. Not to mention lol deadline.
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On January 30 2016 10:47 Charoisaur wrote:
he still doesn't realize that he's the only guy in the world who enjoys the current mappool.
What most people here don't seem to realize that most SC2 players don't either play at the pro level or visit TL and SC reddit. It's also a reasonable guess to say that most of them go blissfully unaware of any map imbalances.
In fact, I doubt most of the people on this forum play at a high enough level to notice on their own. Myself included, before you try to call me out.
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Oki my 2 cents, as a sad panda that can't play LoTV because of a ghetto connection from south america :
- I have no clue about how good the design and balance team's work actually is.
- BUT I know that exchaning with the player base is a nightmare. People keep talking about a sc2 community, but it just doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of people expressing their own vision and calling it "what the community wants".
- reading most topic about patches and balance on these boards is wether desperating or hilarious depending on your mood. There is minimum discussion, just people shouting at blizzard, or at each other, making sure they don't listen other opinion, denying any kind of reasonning, a repeating the same stuff over and over and over.
Really sometimes, a debate between screaming deaf people in a dark room would make more sense that this.
Good luck finding what the so called community wants. A will is the product of a sentient entity, and I wouldn't call ourselves this.
- I've been browsing TL since late 2011, and the first thing that strocke me then was the smartness of the forums, I've been playing plenty of online games for 15+ years (yes I'm this old) and this forums were really different, people were coold minded, they would try to make points and they were always backing up their opinion with clear examples. Each time someone was talking shit or was not backing up his points with facts, people would tell him stfu.
On the other hand, reddit was the place for the stupid rants and hysterical people. (I won't talk about Bnet forums)
5 years later, I realise reddit is more interesting that TL.net most of the time, and I'm pretty sure Reddit didn't improve that much.
TL boards have just gone to trash, and it's a sad thing.
- following my own recommandations, I will back my point up with an example.
Check out all threads about maps since the infamous "dream pool" was announced (the poll itself and its results is quite hilarious too) and please tell me, if you were in blizzard's staff, how the hell would you define what is a good map according to the "community"
Everybody just claims opposite views is an extremely passionate way, calling themselves "the community" and ignoring totally other's oppinion. ANd each time it goes wrong, it's all David Kim's fault (what a retard!)
see :
-2014 S3 : most maps are "community made" and "standard" KSS, overgrowth, deadwing, merry go round but also catallena... people rant. Funilly enough 75% of these rants say Blizzard should hire community mapmakers, cause they just have now clue and don't even know it's already the case.
OG and KSS are also blamed for being "too standard", catallena is blamed for being not standard enough (rotational symetry is such a bad thing, you know) MGR is blamed for the difficulty of the third. Also people are ranting because KSS and OG are too old ("yes they re good but get rid of them")
-2014 S4 : dream pool, players vote, everybody hates the results. Blizzard is insulted for letting the basic players vote ("blizzard should listen to players but only the superior ones, like me")
-2015 S1-S2 : Mix between the dream pool and TLMC 5, appeared cactus valley, echo, coda, expedition lost (coda and echo are praised, but in the end EL and cactus valley will have the best games) but also some blizzard maps : inferno pools (for once everybody agrees on this one : it's bad) and vaani research station (people hating it at first then realising it's one of the most enjoyable map of the season)
-2015 S3 : TLMC6, time to go full non standard cause standard is lame and guess what? people hate the result. "But it can't be because of the map makers, you know, and TL staff was not listened enough, blizzard is such and incompetent bunch of retards"
In the end we have almost one year and half were the so-called community made 80% of the map pool, and was the "community" happy?
But of course, it's all David Kim's fault.
Ok time to /rant off.
I don't know how the game will evolve, I just whish people stopped posting in the same thread their own opinion over and over instead of trying to actually discuss with other, stopped trying being a smart ass instead of trying to find solutions and stopped thinking they're smarter and have more data than the whole blizzard staff insteadof realising they know nothing but their own point of view and all what they can do is trying to express it in the most humble and objective way, and of course started to back up their saying with data and facts instead of thinking their superior intelligence is enough to convince everybody they're right.
... or these boards will just become another Bnet subforum.
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First paragraph is like a complete copy-paste from a random 1st-year university student assignment lol.
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EPT
