EPTIt's never nice to be a target of so much hate, I know, but at this point it is kind of understandable, sadly
.David Kim's Response on Community Feedback - Page 8
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
It's never nice to be a target of so much hate, I know, but at this point it is kind of understandable, sadly . | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12161 Posts
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
The reality is that feature and content development often takes more time than even we expect internally – and as a result, we ask for your patience and temperance in your responses each week. How hard it is to give us 2-3 more maps for Co-Op, or a couple of additional commanders? They don't even need to be balanced, as already some are really easy to play vs others.How hard is it to give us more voice packs? All it takes is getting a person to studio, recording audio for one day (no more then 20-40 sentences even in case of advisors), remastering it for another day, then programming it into the game (I guess a day or a week for a single programmer who has experience). Portraits/skins? Probably a week for an experienced artist + one experienced programmer. Maps? They could even buy them from many many people who do them for free. It's just laziness. What did they do since release? Come out with one patch containing like 3-4 changes, one commander and one map for the co-op? Sold a DLC on which they are still working on and has minimal impact on multiplayer? Does it take 3 months to do that? | ||
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SmykuToronto
Poland269 Posts
Someone may argue that having well balanced and designed units and making different composition viable would be a way to go. Without crazy flying shit, explosions, lasors, adepts and liberators dealing terrible terrible damage players could be free to choose different playstyles based on their own preference and not be forced to play the one true way on the given map. Hell, many strategies mentioned in the DK post would be totally viable on a single standard map and we wouldn't need 7 of them. However, this is just crazy talk and no one ever made any sensible proposals in this area cause this is toxic and non-constructive community. Don't listen to these salty assholes David. Keep doing great work. | ||
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Creager
Germany1893 Posts
On January 30 2016 21:34 Gwavajuice wrote: Oki my 2 cents, as a sad panda that can't play LoTV because of a ghetto connection from south america : - I have no clue about how good the design and balance team's work actually is. - BUT I know that exchaning with the player base is a nightmare. People keep talking about a sc2 community, but it just doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of people expressing their own vision and calling it "what the community wants". - reading most topic about patches and balance on these boards is wether desperating or hilarious depending on your mood. There is minimum discussion, just people shouting at blizzard, or at each other, making sure they don't listen other opinion, denying any kind of reasonning, a repeating the same stuff over and over and over. Really sometimes, a debate between screaming deaf people in a dark room would make more sense that this. Good luck finding what the so called community wants. A will is the product of a sentient entity, and I wouldn't call ourselves this. - I've been browsing TL since late 2011, and the first thing that strocke me then was the smartness of the forums, I've been playing plenty of online games for 15+ years (yes I'm this old) and this forums were really different, people were coold minded, they would try to make points and they were always backing up their opinion with clear examples. Each time someone was talking shit or was not backing up his points with facts, people would tell him stfu. On the other hand, reddit was the place for the stupid rants and hysterical people. (I won't talk about Bnet forums) 5 years later, I realise reddit is more interesting that TL.net most of the time, and I'm pretty sure Reddit didn't improve that much. TL boards have just gone to trash, and it's a sad thing. - following my own recommandations, I will back my point up with an example. Check out all threads about maps since the infamous "dream pool" was announced (the poll itself and its results is quite hilarious too) and please tell me, if you were in blizzard's staff, how the hell would you define what is a good map according to the "community" Everybody just claims opposite views is an extremely passionate way, calling themselves "the community" and ignoring totally other's oppinion. ANd each time it goes wrong, it's all David Kim's fault (what a retard!) see : -2014 S3 : most maps are "community made" and "standard" KSS, overgrowth, deadwing, merry go round but also catallena... people rant. Funilly enough 75% of these rants say Blizzard should hire community mapmakers, cause they just have now clue and don't even know it's already the case. OG and KSS are also blamed for being "too standard", catallena is blamed for being not standard enough (rotational symetry is such a bad thing, you know) MGR is blamed for the difficulty of the third. Also people are ranting because KSS and OG are too old ("yes they re good but get rid of them") -2014 S4 : dream pool, players vote, everybody hates the results. Blizzard is insulted for letting the basic players vote ("blizzard should listen to players but only the superior ones, like me") -2015 S1-S2 : Mix between the dream pool and TLMC 5, appeared cactus valley, echo, coda, expedition lost (coda and echo are praised, but in the end EL and cactus valley will have the best games) but also some blizzard maps : inferno pools (for once everybody agrees on this one : it's bad) and vaani research station (people hating it at first then realising it's one of the most enjoyable map of the season) -2015 S3 : TLMC6, time to go full non standard cause standard is lame and guess what? people hate the result. "But it can't be because of the map makers, you know, and TL staff was not listened enough, blizzard is such and incompetent bunch of retards" In the end we have almost one year and half were the so-called community made 80% of the map pool, and was the "community" happy? But of course, it's all David Kim's fault. Ok time to /rant off. I don't know how the game will evolve, I just whish people stopped posting in the same thread their own opinion over and over instead of trying to actually discuss with other, stopped trying being a smart ass instead of trying to find solutions and stopped thinking they're smarter and have more data than the whole blizzard staff insteadof realising they know nothing but their own point of view and all what they can do is trying to express it in the most humble and objective way, and of course started to back up their saying with data and facts instead of thinking their superior intelligence is enough to convince everybody they're right. ... or these boards will just become another Bnet subforum. Actually posting here from time to time produces an image of everyone surrounding a forest and shouting into it, eagerly awaiting an echo responding to them in my mind. So you kind of got a point in what you've said in that it doesn't resemble a "proper" discussion rather than people throwing their 2 cents at each other without much interaction, myself included. A problem for me personally is that I really tend have problems articulating long posts in English as it's not my native language, so often I'd stick with rather short anwsers instead of more elaborated posts, which often get the points I want to make across way better than what I would've come up with. But thanks for reminding me of that as a lot of people around here could really step up their game in terms of having a proper and intelligent discussion, which reddit often seems to be lacking partly due to their upvote system. | ||
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Ljas
Finland725 Posts
On January 30 2016 21:52 Nazara wrote: How hard is it to give us more voice packs? All it takes is getting a person to studio, recording audio for one day (no more then 20-40 sentences even in case of advisors), remastering it for another day, then programming it into the game (I guess a day or a week for a single programmer who has experience). Professional audiowork of any kind is much more complicated than you assume it is. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
"If you feel like the game was released and still is in a terrible state, you're not allowed to say it. We don't take any of your feedback into account and we're only doing PR while changing almost nothing in the game. We don't feel pressured to deliver a satisfying game, we'd rather whine about how the community is legitimatly being pissed." Yes there's still a lot of people passionate about the game you're murdering, and that are outraged that the design you're proposing is SO BAD. Shooting pylons. SHOOTING PYLONS. The design team learned nothing about how HOTS design brought down WOL. They continued in that terrible design direction, and not taking any feedback into account. Adepts have been obviously OP since the beta, they did nothing to change it when the game was out. Taking the community for a bunch of idiots by doing nothing but PR talk isn't bringing anything good for the game. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
On January 30 2016 17:46 Musicus wrote: It's as if they don't have confidence in their own game. LotV is awesome! It does not need crazy maps to create great games! Check out the best 40 games of 2015 and you'll see the best games are played on standard maps. LotV games will be even better than the HotS games on normal maps. Maps can be standard and unique without being crazy and imbalanced btw. Look at Habitation Station. Also the premise that those crazy maps are more exciting to watch and play on and produce a better experience is just wrong. When I see Prion terrraces loading up, I know exactly what's going to happen, because the map forces the players to play in a specific way. On a standard map I wouldn't know, because the map does not restrict the player in his strategic choices. He could do all kinds of things, the map grants him freedom. Maps like Central Protocol/Lerilak Crest or Prion don't add anything, they just make the games more predictable and take away options, while being imbalanced. Regardless of all of this, they promised new maps every season and I don't understand how the offseason can not count. If you include the beta, some maps have been in the map pool for a very long time already. Thank you Dayvie and Blizzard for the open communication, it's really appreciated. I just don't know which feedback made you so stubbornly believe in your current mindset. I think there are bigger problems and no matter how much sc2 is hurting, it will survive another season on these maps. But I can't help but feel disappointed. You can call me negative or whatever, but I think pointing out issues that can not be ignored, instead of playing along as if everything was fine, is being constructive. I will leave you with the ever so wise words of TLO from an interview with mystarcraft.de http://www.mystarcraft.de/de/interviews/34341-tlo-about-lotv-hsc-and-his-plans-for-2016 This is so true. Maps that pidgeonhole players into certain strategies are bad in my opinion, or at least there shouldn't be too many of them. Innovative features should not force your hand or give unfair advantages to certain races/strategies. Have the players and (especially) the quality of the game create the variety and the entertainment : I know this takes time and hard work to design, but I think this is the least we can expect from Blizzard. | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
On January 30 2016 19:48 Shuffleblade wrote: You are right of course, show me which map there is a 55+% winrate across the board for one race vs another. I will also argue that there have been way too few pro games played to know if this balance is also true at the highest level. We haven't even seen a whole season of GSL or proleague. Daedelous point caused an uproar because players were used to getting to play the same style on every map, many were uncreative and others refused to adapt. These kinds of changes to a meta through a map should come with maps and they should be expected, the players should be given enough time to properly explore the possiblities of the map and how to play to get around the perceived advantage the other race(s) have. No proleague and gsl season? We have way too little for us to even be able to state that the map is actually unbalanced on the highest level. Are you really defending Daedalous Point? For real? DP is terrible, not because people refused to adapt but because math. When your race is designed around surviving early game by making a wall as fast as possible and that numbers do not work so that you can do it, this is the players' fault for refusing to adapt? Adapt to what? Not making a wall and painfully die to any runby? Your "show me a map where stats show it is imba" is a tricky request. Aligulac does not track maps very well and you won't get much stats even if it did because pros will veto accordingly. Of course you won't question why they are vetoed in the first place because hey it's ok you are right, all the issue are in our mind refusing to adapt, right? | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On January 30 2016 22:04 JackONeill wrote: Translation from corporate talk : "If you feel like the game was released and still is in a terrible state, you're not allowed to say it. We don't take any of your feedback into account and we're only doing PR while changing almost nothing in the game. We don't feel pressured to deliver a satisfying game, we'd rather whine about how the community is legitimatly being pissed." Yes there's still a lot of people passionate about the game you're murdering, and that are outraged that the design you're proposing is SO BAD. Shooting pylons. SHOOTING PYLONS. The design team learned nothing about how HOTS design brought down WOL. They continued in that terrible design direction, and not taking any feedback into account. Adepts have been obviously OP since the beta, they did nothing to change it when the game was out. Taking the community for a bunch of idiots by doing nothing but PR talk isn't bringing anything good for the game. That last sentence. Love it. The "community" is obviously just that. Reading your post proves it. Ranting and ranting and ranting with nothing, more than your hurt feelings and your (I'll have to guess) mastermind to how the game design should be, to back it up. | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On January 30 2016 21:34 Gwavajuice wrote: Oki my 2 cents, as a sad panda that can't play LoTV because of a ghetto connection from south america : - I have no clue about how good the design and balance team's work actually is. - BUT I know that exchaning with the player base is a nightmare. People keep talking about a sc2 community, but it just doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of people expressing their own vision and calling it "what the community wants". - reading most topic about patches and balance on these boards is wether desperating or hilarious depending on your mood. There is minimum discussion, just people shouting at blizzard, or at each other, making sure they don't listen other opinion, denying any kind of reasonning, a repeating the same stuff over and over and over. Really sometimes, a debate between screaming deaf people in a dark room would make more sense that this. Good luck finding what the so called community wants. A will is the product of a sentient entity, and I wouldn't call ourselves this. - I've been browsing TL since late 2011, and the first thing that strocke me then was the smartness of the forums, I've been playing plenty of online games for 15+ years (yes I'm this old) and this forums were really different, people were coold minded, they would try to make points and they were always backing up their opinion with clear examples. Each time someone was talking shit or was not backing up his points with facts, people would tell him stfu. On the other hand, reddit was the place for the stupid rants and hysterical people. (I won't talk about Bnet forums) 5 years later, I realise reddit is more interesting that TL.net most of the time, and I'm pretty sure Reddit didn't improve that much. TL boards have just gone to trash, and it's a sad thing. - following my own recommandations, I will back my point up with an example. Check out all threads about maps since the infamous "dream pool" was announced (the poll itself and its results is quite hilarious too) and please tell me, if you were in blizzard's staff, how the hell would you define what is a good map according to the "community" Everybody just claims opposite views is an extremely passionate way, calling themselves "the community" and ignoring totally other's oppinion. ANd each time it goes wrong, it's all David Kim's fault (what a retard!) see : -2014 S3 : most maps are "community made" and "standard" KSS, overgrowth, deadwing, merry go round but also catallena... people rant. Funilly enough 75% of these rants say Blizzard should hire community mapmakers, cause they just have now clue and don't even know it's already the case. OG and KSS are also blamed for being "too standard", catallena is blamed for being not standard enough (rotational symetry is such a bad thing, you know) MGR is blamed for the difficulty of the third. Also people are ranting because KSS and OG are too old ("yes they re good but get rid of them") -2014 S4 : dream pool, players vote, everybody hates the results. Blizzard is insulted for letting the basic players vote ("blizzard should listen to players but only the superior ones, like me") -2015 S1-S2 : Mix between the dream pool and TLMC 5, appeared cactus valley, echo, coda, expedition lost (coda and echo are praised, but in the end EL and cactus valley will have the best games) but also some blizzard maps : inferno pools (for once everybody agrees on this one : it's bad) and vaani research station (people hating it at first then realising it's one of the most enjoyable map of the season) -2015 S3 : TLMC6, time to go full non standard cause standard is lame and guess what? people hate the result. "But it can't be because of the map makers, you know, and TL staff was not listened enough, blizzard is such and incompetent bunch of retards" In the end we have almost one year and half were the so-called community made 80% of the map pool, and was the "community" happy? But of course, it's all David Kim's fault. Ok time to /rant off. I don't know how the game will evolve, I just whish people stopped posting in the same thread their own opinion over and over instead of trying to actually discuss with other, stopped trying being a smart ass instead of trying to find solutions and stopped thinking they're smarter and have more data than the whole blizzard staff insteadof realising they know nothing but their own point of view and all what they can do is trying to express it in the most humble and objective way, and of course started to back up their saying with data and facts instead of thinking their superior intelligence is enough to convince everybody they're right. ... or these boards will just become another Bnet subforum. Word. Again. A camel is a horse designed by committee (or this "community") | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 30 2016 22:22 Legobiten wrote: Word. Again. A camel is a horse designed by committee (or this "community") Nice expression, didn't know that one. Thanks! | ||
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Timelog
Netherlands57 Posts
On January 30 2016 21:34 Gwavajuice wrote: You sir, are my new favorite hero. Couldn't have said it better myself.Oki my 2 cents, as a sad panda that can't play LoTV because of a ghetto connection from south america : - I have no clue about how good the design and balance team's work actually is. - BUT I know that exchaning with the player base is a nightmare. People keep talking about a sc2 community, but it just doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of people expressing their own vision and calling it "what the community wants". - reading most topic about patches and balance on these boards is wether desperating or hilarious depending on your mood. There is minimum discussion, just people shouting at blizzard, or at each other, making sure they don't listen other opinion, denying any kind of reasonning, a repeating the same stuff over and over and over. Really sometimes, a debate between screaming deaf people in a dark room would make more sense that this. Good luck finding what the so called community wants. A will is the product of a sentient entity, and I wouldn't call ourselves this. - I've been browsing TL since late 2011, and the first thing that strocke me then was the smartness of the forums, I've been playing plenty of online games for 15+ years (yes I'm this old) and this forums were really different, people were coold minded, they would try to make points and they were always backing up their opinion with clear examples. Each time someone was talking shit or was not backing up his points with facts, people would tell him stfu. On the other hand, reddit was the place for the stupid rants and hysterical people. (I won't talk about Bnet forums) 5 years later, I realise reddit is more interesting that TL.net most of the time, and I'm pretty sure Reddit didn't improve that much. TL boards have just gone to trash, and it's a sad thing. - following my own recommandations, I will back my point up with an example. Check out all threads about maps since the infamous "dream pool" was announced (the poll itself and its results is quite hilarious too) and please tell me, if you were in blizzard's staff, how the hell would you define what is a good map according to the "community" Everybody just claims opposite views is an extremely passionate way, calling themselves "the community" and ignoring totally other's oppinion. ANd each time it goes wrong, it's all David Kim's fault (what a retard!) see : -2014 S3 : most maps are "community made" and "standard" KSS, overgrowth, deadwing, merry go round but also catallena... people rant. Funilly enough 75% of these rants say Blizzard should hire community mapmakers, cause they just have now clue and don't even know it's already the case. OG and KSS are also blamed for being "too standard", catallena is blamed for being not standard enough (rotational symetry is such a bad thing, you know) MGR is blamed for the difficulty of the third. Also people are ranting because KSS and OG are too old ("yes they re good but get rid of them") -2014 S4 : dream pool, players vote, everybody hates the results. Blizzard is insulted for letting the basic players vote ("blizzard should listen to players but only the superior ones, like me") -2015 S1-S2 : Mix between the dream pool and TLMC 5, appeared cactus valley, echo, coda, expedition lost (coda and echo are praised, but in the end EL and cactus valley will have the best games) but also some blizzard maps : inferno pools (for once everybody agrees on this one : it's bad) and vaani research station (people hating it at first then realising it's one of the most enjoyable map of the season) -2015 S3 : TLMC6, time to go full non standard cause standard is lame and guess what? people hate the result. "But it can't be because of the map makers, you know, and TL staff was not listened enough, blizzard is such and incompetent bunch of retards" In the end we have almost one year and half were the so-called community made 80% of the map pool, and was the "community" happy? But of course, it's all David Kim's fault. Ok time to /rant off. I don't know how the game will evolve, I just whish people stopped posting in the same thread their own opinion over and over instead of trying to actually discuss with other, stopped trying being a smart ass instead of trying to find solutions and stopped thinking they're smarter and have more data than the whole blizzard staff insteadof realising they know nothing but their own point of view and all what they can do is trying to express it in the most humble and objective way, and of course started to back up their saying with data and facts instead of thinking their superior intelligence is enough to convince everybody they're right. ... or these boards will just become another Bnet subforum. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On January 30 2016 22:20 Legobiten wrote: That last sentence. Love it. The "community" is obviously just that. Reading your post proves it. Ranting and ranting and ranting with nothing, more than your hurt feelings and your (I'll have to guess) mastermind to how the game design should be, to back it up. Are you for real? TL and Bnet forums are full of posts "how should the tank be?", "Why is PO bad for the game", "how to change parasitic bomb", "what makes the adept hard to balance"... The "community" as you say, is producing so much and proposing so much ideas. While blizzard is proposing nothing but "we'll look into it", "we'll gather more feedback", etc. If you're a blizzard fanboy it's fine, but arguing that the community does nothing but rant and doesn't propose any ideas is proof of your ignorance. You're embarassing yourself. | ||
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Espartaquen
88 Posts
Sad to hear but SC2 compared to other esports is a carcass. Blame it on MOBAS. Blame it on the game´s price. The fact is that less people every month are playing this game and Mr.Kim and his team have done nothing to revitalize it (and dont start with the LOTV changes that a lot of people have complained about, thats not innovation nor revitalizing). At this time my hopes for SC2 making a comeback are nonexistant. If RTS are ever to be popular again the amazing achievement wont come out of this design/marketing team. Im just hopeless, I just dont like this game anymore, I´ve come all the way from bronze to top 300 EU server in HOTS just to become depressed by the state of the game. It saddens me deeply what Blizzard is doing. I am simply freaked out by this. I seriously cannot stand this anymore, this stupidity, this incompetence, this stubbornness, this "playing the fool" stuff. Its sad... | ||
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Espartaquen
88 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On January 30 2016 22:47 Espartaquen wrote: Sad to hear but SC2 compared to other esports is a carcass. Blame it on MOBAS. Blame it on the game´s price. The fact is that less people every month are stopping to play this game and Mr.Kim and his team have done nothing to revitalize it (and dont start with the LOTV changes that a lot of people have complained about, thats not innovation nor revitalizing). But isn't this a positiv trend? I think u mean less people are playing/ more and more people stop playing : D | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
The key should be to make 1v1 the best or most competitive system rather than focus on the other aspect. From a business point of view, 1v1 is where Blizzard can get the most monetary in return (more competitive scene = more tourneys = more venues = more exposure = more people watch = more people buy = more people play). I ain't a pro and I feel sorry for those that want to qualify and have to stuck to play these horrible maps simply bc they don't have the time to focus on providing better ladder maps. | ||
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Espartaquen
88 Posts
On January 30 2016 23:11 Phaenoman wrote: But isn't this a positiv trend? I think u mean less people are playing/ more and more people stop playing : D Yeah sorry. My english is not the best when im sad and pissed. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 30 2016 23:16 BigRedDog wrote: My only beef is that they should spend their focus on making ladder match the best (focus more on testing and provide better maps). I feel like the development team is too busy putting content for Archon, Tourney and Commanders mode that there is no time to focus on 1v1. The key should be to make 1v1 the best or most competitive system rather than focus on the other aspect. From a business point of view, 1v1 is where Blizzard can get the most monetary in return (more competitive scene = more tourneys = more venues = more exposure = more people watch = more people buy = more people play). 1v1 is a giant money drain with no continuous revenue stream. Brood War is a perfect example. me and my friends bought Brood War heavily discounted with 2 strategy books in it. Blizzard made almost no money off of us. even at SC's dirt cheap price people are still calling it to be free and screaming Blizzard doesn't know how to generate revenue and create profit. ATVI is better at creating profit than just about every publisher in the world. If ATVI can't do it with the SC franchise then the RTS genre is done like dinner. Hey but wait.. Halo War2 is on the way ! ! ! ! | ||
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