EPTDavid Kim's Response on Community Feedback - Page 9
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NonY
8748 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16693 Posts
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johnny123
521 Posts
Blizzard quite frankly has missed the train , their old philosophy of moving like dinosaurs has come back to bite them in the ass. I dont really expect sc2 to make a comeback . Its just gonna get worse and worse and ofcourse this was the last chance to get players, as their are no more expansions. Faill Perhaps with war4 in the next 50 years we might see some improvement and realizations of what made war3 great. First off you can remove the partial arrange team abuse in random teams.....That alone has destroyed the random team scene in sc2. Its just a joke.. Then you have a game fully centered around 1v1 . The arcade improvements came to late and are still lacking basic features from what made war3 and sc arcades great. At this point i have no hope for blizzard. | ||
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oErMeNs
7 Posts
On January 30 2016 23:16 BigRedDog wrote: My only beef is that they should spend their focus on making ladder match the best (focus more on testing and provide better maps). I feel like the development team is too busy putting content for Archon, Tourney and Commanders mode that there is no time to focus on 1v1. The key should be to make 1v1 the best or most competitive system rather than focus on the other aspect. From a business point of view, 1v1 is where Blizzard can get the most monetary in return (more competitive scene = more tourneys = more venues = more exposure = more people watch = more people buy = more people play). I ain't a pro and I feel sorry for those that want to qualify and have to stuck to play these horrible maps simply bc they don't have the time to focus on providing better ladder maps. Don't know where you've learned math but all the other modes require more game clients. And when more Archon tournements arrise it will mean more friends supporting and watching them. I'm going to start starcraft now and play some games on the excellent map pool and actually enjoy the game. I'll leave you depressed individuals here to moan and whine. Maybe I'll see some of you on the ladder where I'll utilize the maps features for my own good to win games, which you crying little kids can't seem to do. Call me a fanboy but you should see yourself crying and moaning on these forums totally forgetting it's just a fuckin game! Grow up guys or buy some diapers to shit in. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On January 30 2016 11:52 OtherWorld wrote: Apparently, 6 years into the SC2 experiment, DK's team still don't know how to differentiate "cool factor" and "gimmick". (1)constructive criticism has been given to them since 2010. (2)when you do shit, you'll take shit. Every criticism doesn't have to be constructive, as the goal of criticism is primarily to express a feeling ; only secondarily criticism might be constructive when it is useful/the guy in command doesn't know what the guy criticizing wants. But destructive criticism, as long as it's not trolling, is a valid way to express your feelings, thus is valid criticism. Constructive criticism is often confused with nice criticism, but it's not the same. Thus yeah, if Dayvie's team thinks that getting told that they're bad and delivered a terrible product is demotivating shit and not legit, useful criticism, I think they're lucky to work at Blizzard and not somewhere else Blizzard responds much more quickly to various forms of outrage and will ignore 'constructive criticism' as long as it's expedient for them to do so. I'm not going to blame them, they have their own agenda and it's their game, but it's noticeable that they very much follow their own vision for the game and this means that constructive criticism is often far more effort than it's worth if one's goal is to influence Blizzard. Think about TheDwf's article about how the speed and volatility of the game increased too much, there was a lot of discussion about that and a lot of sound analysis associated with it. Certainly a lot of work went into it, whether you agree with the main trust of the article or not. But as far as I know Blizzard did not comment on it, they did not venture another direction for the game, it was mostly as if that article was never published. Similarly, the double harvesting article was more or less dismissed by Blizzard with dishonest and incorrect argumentation. So while I can perfectly respect their choice to choose their own path, it does mean we have to realize that 'constructive criticism' means something different to Blizzard compared to what you and I might define it as. That is to say, for David Kim constructive criticism is mainly criticism that he can use, i.e. something that affirms his stance on the game, which tacitly assumes the direction he's taken the game in is correct, but which offers concrete and technical suggestions he can apply to the game. So if you tell him that adepts can have a different damage-to-light-calculation which subtly fixes the TvP imbalance or whatever, then he will consider it. If you tell him that adepts have too much mobility and the shade creates problems then he will ignore you because it is somehow too critically motivated and too independently minded. I also think it's a bit unfair of Blizzard to whine about aspersions that their team is small. If they would be transparent about this issue there would not be a need to constantly affirm the size of their team in public, and if they would perform up to standards the allegations would not gain traction (sorry for the phallic metaphors). There was a period of time in early LotV development where it seemed like there was literally only a single intern working on the game outside of periodic appearances of David Kim to declare that the game was balanced. The models and ideas for new LotV concepts would all be more or less recycled, they had obviously allocated most of the RTS team to Heroes, -- Browder left the game without so much as a public mention, and they were publicly hiring new developers too. I don't know about the current size of the team, but what exactly is there to demonstrate this? Logic would dictate that after the release of the expansion Blizzard no longer has any obligations to provide new content, furthermore you don't need a big team for the maintenance jobs of balance and bug fixing. If they are going to come with new content in the future that is nice, but I'm not sure exactly how much those promises are worth and to what degree it's even new content or just stuff they couldn't finish by the time of release and which they are now finalizing. That said, sometimes people are really unfair to David Kim. In this thread (*cough* Charoisaur) there are also people whose every post consists of some form of direct, harsh and personal criticism and I think it hurts the cause of constructive analysis of Blizzard and SC2 which I do still believe in (since it's fun to do). And it's not nice to read criticism I guess. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On January 30 2016 23:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i kinda like that some Blizzard employees read feedback directly without a middle man. if some feelings get hurt on both sides.. too bad. Without direct communication something always gets lost in translation no matter how good the translator is. if some feelings are hurt in the process of product creation .. me and my money don't care. It's not about feelings and it's not about what you want. It's about making the game the best it can be. People who actually care about the game itself and not about the community have a right to be upset that community people have drawn so much attention to themselves that game developers now have their duties split between assuaging the irrational concerns of a bunch of narcissists and developing the game. The whole point of having a middle man is so that something DOES get lost in translation. The job is to be a filter so that what gets through is more helpful than the raw feedback. Maybe it doesn't end up being perfect feedback, and maybe something good gets dropped once in a while, but you cannot seriously think that reading the raw feedback is more productive than feedback filtered by an intelligent and knowledgeable person. The negativity is nothing to scoff. The whole "he's a wimp and needs to toughen up if words hurt him" attitude is decades old and just outdated. You won't find professional sports teams that tolerate a constant source of negativity. You won't find businesses that tolerate it either. And as far as outside criticism such groups receive, their answer is to ignore it completely and just do their jobs. Asking the SC2 team to read all that stuff and take it seriously is just not done by professionals in other fields. It's avoided in every industry for good reason. Companies have whole departments dedicated to handling those relations. Blizzard has one too but for some reason wants the SC2 team to suffer and become objectively less productive and worse at their jobs rather than utilize the skills of a community manager. It's indefensible. | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 31 2016 00:14 NonY wrote: It's not about feelings and it's not about what you want. It's about making the game the best it can be. People who actually care about the game itself and not about the community have a right to be upset that community people have drawn so much attention to themselves that game developers now have their duties split between assuaging the irrational concerns of a bunch of narcissists and developing the game. The whole point of having a middle man is so that something DOES get lost in translation. The job is to be a filter so that what gets through is more helpful than the raw feedback. Maybe it doesn't end up being perfect feedback, and maybe something good gets dropped once in a while, but you cannot seriously think that reading the raw feedback is more productive than feedback filtered by an intelligent and knowledgeable person. The negativity is nothing to scoff. The whole "he's a wimp and needs to toughen up if words hurt him" attitude is decades old and just outdated. You won't find professional sports teams that tolerate a constant source of negativity. You won't find businesses that tolerate it either. And as far as outside criticism such groups receive, their answer is to ignore it completely and just do their jobs. Asking the SC2 team to read all that stuff and take it seriously is just not done by professionals in other fields. It's avoided in every industry for good reason. Companies have whole departments dedicated to handling those relations. Blizzard has one too but for some reason wants the SC2 team to suffer and become objectively less productive and worse at their jobs rather than utilize the skills of a community manager. It's indefensible. Good points NonY, you'd think DK + team has better things to do than reading demoralizing rants. | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
More obvious at Diablo3. | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On January 30 2016 22:42 JackONeill wrote: Are you for real? TL and Bnet forums are full of posts "how should the tank be?", "Why is PO bad for the game", "how to change parasitic bomb", "what makes the adept hard to balance"... The "community" as you say, is producing so much and proposing so much ideas. While blizzard is proposing nothing but "we'll look into it", "we'll gather more feedback", etc. If you're a blizzard fanboy it's fine, but arguing that the community does nothing but rant and doesn't propose any ideas is proof of your ignorance. You're embarassing yourself. Sure there is constructive feedback sometimes but the one I was commenting on was trash just like 90% of the TL forum is. Most of your examples have now been patched. How is that "not listening to the community"? And what's wrong with "We'll look into it" and "we'll gather more feedback"? Good things take time. There would be hell of a lot more hate if Blizzard changed everything the "community" throws at them without really giving it time. It's Blizzards game to design and develop. Things might take time and that of course can be frustrating if you're a person who has no patience but time is a good thing if you want nice results. "They released LotV too early" is heard a lot and at the same time you hear how they want all the changes to balance and ladder right away. No logic there. It must be so fucking hard to please everyone. It's impossible of course. Like DK wrote, even the pros have completely different views of what needs to be done. Sure, I like most of Blizzards games and I love SC2. I think LotV is by far the best one. I have never seen so many epic games in tournaments in such a short period of time. Have you seen them? Freaking amazing! Watched VODs of some the most hyped games of WoL recently. They're sleeping pills in comparison. I really don't get why people want that kind of play back? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
-Remove Prion Terraces -Patch the game every 2-3 weeks not every 6-9 months -Mech viability -Patch invincible nydus worms -all air units ridiculously OP should be toned down (tempest -> 6 supply, BC/Carrier -> 8 supply, liberator -> 4 supply, broodlord -> more supply) -tone up ground anti-air aka cyclones, thors, hydralisks Alive game  let's be positive and hope the above will happen within the next 2 years yay puppies! rainbows ! Surely those things will be addressed much positivity! I'm sure mech will be remotely playable by 2017 <3 <3 <3 | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 31 2016 00:32 avilo wrote: We all love this game :D Let's be constructive! -Remove Prion Terraces -Patch the game every 2-3 weeks not every 6-9 months -Mech viability -Patch invincible nydus worms -all air units ridiculously OP should be toned down (tempest -> 6 supply, BC/Carrier -> 8 supply, liberator -> 4 supply, broodlord -> more supply) -tone up ground anti-air aka cyclones, thors, hydralisks Alive game let's be positive and hope the above will happen within the next 2 years yay puppies! rainbows ! Surely those things will be addressed much positivity! I'm sure mech will be remotely playable by 2017 <3 <3 <3Too bad that if someone filters/ would filter feedback all the puppies and rainbows don't get to the development team as well :/ | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On January 31 2016 00:32 avilo wrote: We all love this game :D Let's be constructive! -Remove Prion Terraces -Patch the game every 2-3 weeks not every 6-9 months -Mech viability -Patch invincible nydus worms -all air units ridiculously OP should be toned down (tempest -> 6 supply, BC/Carrier -> 8 supply, liberator -> 4 supply, broodlord -> more supply) -tone up ground anti-air aka cyclones, thors, hydralisks Alive game let's be positive and hope the above will happen within the next 2 years yay puppies! rainbows ! Surely those things will be addressed much positivity! I'm sure mech will be remotely playable by 2017 <3 <3 <3but i think mech is already op and needs to be nerfed, also i like the current map pool and i think invincible nydus worms add a lot to the game | ||
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Creager
Germany1893 Posts
On January 31 2016 00:32 avilo wrote: -Patch the game every 2-3 weeks not every 6-9 months Well, to be completely fair, in the past there were multiple occasions where the community outlashed at Blizzard for jumping to actions too quickly (well, certainly not BL/Infestor lol) and many demanded they'd take a slower approach to give players time to maybe find a solution on their own. It has been quite a bumpy road and I feel the pace of balancing just something Blizzard can't EVER do right, no matter how they try to handle things - people from the other faction will always complain afterwards. | ||
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pwei
United States62 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On January 31 2016 00:56 Creager wrote: Well, to be completely fair, in the past there were multiple occasions where the community outlashed at Blizzard for jumping to actions too quickly (well, certainly not BL/Infestor lol) and many demanded they'd take a slower approach to give players time to maybe find a solution on their own. It has been quite a bumpy road and I feel the pace of balancing just something Blizzard can't EVER do right, no matter how they try to handle things - people from the other faction will always complain afterwards. No. I'm 99% sure no one has ever been fine with blizzard taking 6-9 months to "wait and see." And even if they were that age of development is LONG GONE. SC2 should be receiving patches for balance/design/new cool changes every 3-4 weeks. Whether that is minor touch-ups to abilities, slight balance changes, etc. Most people i think are negative when they see we get minor patches way too infrequently imo...in other games that are easily mentionable...they get patches every month sometimes every 2-3 weeks balance changes to champions/abilities and things. SC2 NEEDS that now. | ||
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Creager
Germany1893 Posts
On January 31 2016 01:31 avilo wrote: No. I'm 99% sure no one has ever been fine with blizzard taking 6-9 months to "wait and see." And even if they were that age of development is LONG GONE. SC2 should be receiving patches for balance/design/new cool changes every 3-4 weeks. Whether that is minor touch-ups to abilities, slight balance changes, etc. Most people i think are negative when they see we get minor patches way too infrequently imo...in other games that are easily mentionable...they get patches every month sometimes every 2-3 weeks balance changes to champions/abilities and things. SC2 NEEDS that now. But don't you think that having such a high frequency of balance/design changes would hurt pro-play at the very least, as it artificially prevents players from having a settled meta game? Having to adapt to new stuff every month is not what StarCraft is about, I think, it's about constantly refining your skill in an environment where perfect play is non-existent. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
I really like DK as a human beeing, he seems to be a cool dude and i am happy for him and his position he is in from all my heart. I also really like that they stepped up their communication level. Every week there is an update about current work in the background, awesome, keep that please. Also i noticed a huge improvement social media wise, mainly twitter, it seems like someone was hired to promote more on twitter, great as well guys! That beeing said, independently if i agree on balance changes and other things such as map pool changes and stuff, i can not totally understand the way Blizz is gathering feedback. It happens quite alot of times, that the majority is vocal about a problem, but still the response isn´t always comprehensible and explained. Often the answer in short is sadly, "we don´t agree", but not really why. If it´s a major issue, such an answer can be frustrating, remember a lot of us are extremly passionate and therefore often emotional. As an example, some maps are ingame since the first day of beta, please consider to change your minds, there is absolutly nothing wrong with taking as few step back of a statement and do some changes, there is nothing embarassing about it. Be proud about acting for the good of starcraft. Also the community has some dedictated map makers, if non blizzard maps are a great addition, so be it! | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On January 31 2016 01:45 Creager wrote: But don't you think that having such a high frequency of balance/design changes would hurt pro-play at the very least, as it artificially prevents players from having a settled meta game? Having to adapt to new stuff every month is not what StarCraft is about, I think, it's about constantly refining your skill in an environment where perfect play is non-existent. I'd agree. 4 weeks is not enough for new metas to sink in/get figured out. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On January 31 2016 01:45 Creager wrote: But don't you think that having such a high frequency of balance/design changes would hurt pro-play at the very least, as it artificially prevents players from having a settled meta game? Having to adapt to new stuff every month is not what StarCraft is about, I think, it's about constantly refining your skill in an environment where perfect play is non-existent. No that's a terrible argument by definition if you are "Pro" you will adapt to patch changes almost immediately or within a few practice games. A lot of elitist SC2 players think LoL is a noobie game right? Yet their pros literally adapt every patch to changes to new champions/balance etc. If they can do it, SC2 players can do it even more easily because SC2 is the highest skill cap game ever created. Adapting to new stuff has literally nothing to do with perfect play or refining skill, you can still achieve such things regardless of changes. Well, perfect play is unobtainable in the first place. I guarantee you, if SC2 received awesome patch changes every 2-3 weeks people would literally FUCKING FLOCK back to SC2 in droves. You put skins in the game, etc. on top of frequent balance patching...this game will slowly get back to #1 easily. EASILY. There's some positivity for you. | ||
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teamguy225
2 Posts
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