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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
One of these days, blizzard will pull all support from the game then what will peoples' faces look like as they stare at themselves? Then maybe the community can reflect on why they've been so horrible to the developers over the years (and each other for that matter). | ||
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On January 30 2016 12:16 ShambhalaWar wrote: I would be "demotivated" as well reading all this crap and abuse the community dishes out. I've taken part in it, sadly, and I have taken a step back. One of these days, blizzard will pull all support from the game then what will peoples' faces look like as they stare at themselves? Then maybe the community can reflect on why they've been so horrible to the developers over the years (and each other for that matter). Maybe they should pull all support from the game and give refunds. | ||
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
We want normal maps. No gold bases, no back rocks. Preferably 2 player. Look at the greatest maps of all time. Polar Night, Overgrowth, Daybreak, King Sejong Station, Coda. What do they have in common? They are all relatively standard maps. These are the most fun maps for anybody, competitive or casual. You can do whatever you like on these maps. YEAH MAN WE NEED GOLD BASES EVERYWHERE MAN Such a joke line of thinking. Unique is not good. At all. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On January 30 2016 12:07 brickrd wrote: wtf are you talking about? "destructive criticism is valid"? what does that even mean? it's valid to try to make people feel like shit because you don't like that they aren't using your ideas? there is no community consensus, everyone wants different shit, and it's impossible to design the game "everyone wants"? how can so many individuals be so ceaselessly convinced that they are being personally wronged because not every single one of their suggestions is implemented? I feel like more than 2/3 of the community agrees on changes that won't be made, like removing the gold bases on prion and the map pack not being great. It is ironic to me that lotv is heavily influenced by the community and is the best expansion yet. It is too bad so many things take a while to change like nerfing adepts, PB, and PO. Those changes seemed easy and straightforward. I am not familar with the structure of how things are done now, but I wish there were more community representatives that would change how things are done in the game, and there was more of a shoot first ask questions later approach to speed things up. Maybe something like having a poll of the top players, but keeping their suggestions secret? I am thinking of something more like the wikipedia model. One counterargument to this is that you can't make sweeping changes that could negatively affect the game for so many people, but I mean come on, everyone knew tvp was the most broken matchup because of the adept. I might be having a selective memory and I did miss all of hots because I got that sick of the game by hots beta, but how many times has the community been wrong about stuff when there is such strong opinion about something like adepts and the map pool? Then I think back to how many times the blizzard team has been wrong about stuff. The biggest things that come to mind are just comparing hots to lotv. The blizz team has made lots of cool changes too, but the negative one are always going to stick out, just like blown referee calls in a game. I know they're smart people, but I have a feeling it has more to do with the model of how things are setup and run now that creates a hindrance between the community feedback and how fast changes are implemented. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 30 2016 12:07 brickrd wrote: wtf are you talking about? "destructive criticism is valid"? what does that even mean? it's valid to try to make people feel like shit because you don't like that they aren't using your ideas? you realize that they can actually design the game any way they want, just like a band selling albums can make whatever music they want? where do you get this insane entitlement from? am i the only one who can see as clear as day that there is no community consensus, everyone wants different shit, and it's impossible to design the game "everyone wants"? how can so many individuals be so ceaselessly convinced that they are being personally wronged because not every single one of their suggestions is implemented? i dont even play other blizz games or care about them as a company, this is just overall common sense and common decency. like... some of you people need to admit you're just too invested in how you think starcraft should be and how much you think your opinion should matter Destructive, in the sense of "not constructive" criticism, is valid. When a nurse's doing you a injection, and she fucks up in her technique and you feel pain, you'll probably say "ouch" or express your pain. That's non-constructive, thus destructive, criticism, because you didn't tell her "oh look, I think you should do X and Y so that I feel less pain". Does that make your "ouch" useless? Nope, she got the indication that she fucked up. Now ofc if you go on her being like "hey you're so bad at your job, I don't even know why you're doing that you shit" etc, it's not destructive criticism, it's insults. They can design the game they want. They should, if they knew what they're doing. Yet they're here, asking for feedback, asking us what we want. Do you know many bands who're like "hey fans, what do you want our next single to be? Should it be a power ballad? Or maybe a energetic rock?"? Nope. A creator creates, and people like it or not, I agree with you entirely on that. And they should create a game and not listen to the community. But they do, they ask the community for help, because they have no idea what they"re doing. Of course people will then be angry when they basically go "oh hey, we thought about your ideas, but mine are better, 'cuz they're mine". And yes, I do entirely agree with the fact that there's no community consensus and that it's impossible to satisfy everyone. But then why do they search community feedback as if there was one big community feedback? Who's not seeing clear as day that there is no community consensus? You & me? Or them? | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On January 30 2016 12:22 RPR_Tempest wrote: We don't want unique maps, David! We want normal maps. No gold bases, no back rocks. Preferably 2 player. Look at the greatest maps of all time. Polar Night, Overgrowth, Daybreak, King Sejong Station, Coda. What do they have in common? They are all relatively standard maps. These are the most fun maps for anybody, competitive or casual. You can do whatever you like on these maps. YEAH MAN WE NEED GOLD BASES EVERYWHERE MAN Such a joke line of thinking. Unique is not good. At all. People complain when every map is standard macro maps too. Blizzard can't win basically. In saying that, I agree the map pool is average and was really hoping it'd change. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 30 2016 12:34 OtherWorld wrote: Destructive, in the sense of "not constructive" criticism, is valid. When a nurse's doing you a injection, and she fucks up in her technique and you feel pain, you'll probably say "ouch" or express your pain. That's non-constructive, thus destructive, criticism, because you didn't tell her "oh look, I think you should do X and Y so that I feel less pain". Does that make your "ouch" useless? Nope, she got the indication that she fucked up. Now ofc if you go on her being like "hey you're so bad at your job, I don't even know why you're doing that you shit" etc, it's not destructive criticism, it's insults. They can design the game they want. They should, if they knew what they're doing. Yet they're here, asking for feedback, asking us what we want. Do you know many bands who're like "hey fans, what do you want our next single to be? Should it be a power ballad? Or maybe a energetic rock?"? Nope. A creator creates, and people like it or not, I agree with you entirely on that. And they should create a game and not listen to the community. But they do, they ask the community for help, because they have no idea what they"re doing. Of course people will then be angry when they basically go "oh hey, we thought about your ideas, but mine are better, 'cuz they're mine". And yes, I do entirely agree with the fact that there's no community consensus and that it's impossible to satisfy everyone. But then why do they search community feedback as if there was one big community feedback? Who's not seeing clear as day that there is no community consensus? You & me? Or them? I'm not sure why you're equating non-constructive criticism with destructive criticism. Because that's utterly false. That's not what destructive criticism is. Destructive criticism is criticism performed with harmful intentions. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post. Blizzard should definitely listen to what the community has to say, as it's data that can serve guide their actions, but just because they listened doesn't mean they should blindly follow what the community thinks is the best path. | ||
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Frudgey
Canada3367 Posts
I think it's easy to get weighed down by the vocal minority, but you need to remember that there are literally thousands of others playing StarCraft and enjoying it immensely. And honestly, I think it would be a herculean task to balance something like StarCraft. Like some other said, people have very different opinions on how the game should be balanced. How do you know which people to listen to? How do you know which changes you should implement? You would also have to keep in mind how many different variables one would have to consider while making a balance change. By changing one statistic of one unit, you would have review if that would change the interactions between several different units and several different scenarios. I'm happy that David Kim and his crew have worked on balance as long as they have, because it seems very difficult and, some days, thankless. Personally I think StarCraft 2 has come a long ways since Wings of Liberty and I'm convinced that it'll only get better. I hope I'm not the minority on this view point, but I do want to thank the game developers of StarCraft 2. You've given my my favorite game of all time and have given me many, MANY hours of happiness. I would love to thank the StarCraft 2 team as I think they're doing the best that they can and I think they're awesome. | ||
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NyxNax
United States227 Posts
I understand this must be extremely difficult for the developers, especially as the game gets more complex, and it will be virtually impossible to appease everyone. Also with Esports, that just adds more difficulties.. | ||
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
It’s encouraging to see that the community is eager for new content and features. However, we recognize that there is a temptation once we’ve talked about something new to want to see it in the game quickly. The reality is that feature and content development often takes more time than even we expect internally – and as a result, we ask for your patience and temperance in your responses each week. I think it's one thing to express your disappointment, but you have to do so in an appropriate manner without attacking/shitting on the devs like many people did/do. However, I really wish they had asked for our patience during beta with extensive testing and just released it this summer with all those features included, as I feel it's kind of natural for people to expect the "quick" implementation of long announced features with the "final" version of the game released earlier than expected. And, if we're all perfectly honest, while giving feedback and trying to work together with the dev team to improve the game we all love(d) is the ideal hypothetical solution, in reality, as many already pointed out, they are a company trying to sell a product and we are the customers they're trying to please. So, here's what many of us don't really understand: The majority of the players clearly would be pleased with a few maps swapped out with fresh ones for the upcoming season, which is understandable, given they are around since beta. So, to try some constructive criticism here, why not have separate map pools for ranked and unranked play (I know you'd have to separate those two player pools, as well, possibly making it difficult to have proper matchmaking), giving unranked mode a selection of possible new maps for upcoming seasons for people to try out, while keeping the "solid/approved maps" for the ranked ladder? | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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waiting2Bbanned
United States154 Posts
I mean, if they dont' want to listen to the community, fine, but at least listen to the Korean pros and the pros often say Blizzard don't really take their feedback. Maybe the korean pros might wanna keep their mouths shut from now on, or they'll wake up to a single season of GSL in 2017  Re:maps I think in this early stage of the meta maybe standard maps would be better to help develop that said meta and show any race balance flaws, maybe later we could go to "unique" maps. Also "horde of hedgehogs of hate" is golden, almost wanna pick up my guitar and start writing a song about that | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On January 30 2016 12:34 OtherWorld wrote: Destructive, in the sense of "not constructive" criticism, is valid. When a nurse's doing you a injection, and she fucks up in her technique and you feel pain, you'll probably say "ouch" or express your pain. That's non-constructive, thus destructive, criticism, because you didn't tell her "oh look, I think you should do X and Y so that I feel less pain". Does that make your "ouch" useless? Nope, she got the indication that she fucked up. Now ofc if you go on her being like "hey you're so bad at your job, I don't even know why you're doing that you shit" etc, it's not destructive criticism, it's insults. They can design the game they want. They should, if they knew what they're doing. Yet they're here, asking for feedback, asking us what we want. Do you know many bands who're like "hey fans, what do you want our next single to be? Should it be a power ballad? Or maybe a energetic rock?"? Nope. A creator creates, and people like it or not, I agree with you entirely on that. And they should create a game and not listen to the community. But they do, they ask the community for help, because they have no idea what they"re doing. Of course people will then be angry when they basically go "oh hey, we thought about your ideas, but mine are better, 'cuz they're mine". And yes, I do entirely agree with the fact that there's no community consensus and that it's impossible to satisfy everyone. But then why do they search community feedback as if there was one big community feedback? Who's not seeing clear as day that there is no community consensus? You & me? Or them? You're mistaking destructive criticism with negative criticism (there's no non-constructive criticism). Destructive criticism is the polar opposite of constructive criticism. The words destructive and constructive kind of are a giveaway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_criticism#Negative_criticism | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
Blizzard has or had 0 reason to patch and develop both Brood War and SC2, not to mention every other game in the history of their lineup, beyond the street date sale. The community has a way bigger ego that trumps basic reasoning - and their reactive comments that make things personal just show this. These guys care about the game. To think otherwise is honestly just short sighted. | ||
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Kurbz
Australia88 Posts
On January 30 2016 11:35 Cascade wrote: Hmm, I don't this is the right approach to handling the online community. To put it simply, haters gonna hate. The people that post the most are people that are angry for one or other reason, not the people that enjoy the game (they'll be in the game , playing). And the people that post are often people that say things without thinking, rather than people that carefully think through all sides of a problem before posting (those will probably not post at all, seeing that their complaints often don't really make sense). And it is important to not let that fact get to the developers, justified hate or not. So if the dev team is getting taken down by the tone, maybe better to put a layer in between. Have community managers that scoop up and forward the constructive ideas to the developers, together with any widespread systematic complains of a specific aspect of the game. Discourage (sensitive) developers to read the forums. Celebrate that one time when only 70% of the comments sling feces at you, that means that you've done great job! Take the team out for a drink! If you've watched tasteosis banter (you know, when they should be casting the game), they often make fun of how forum posters or twitch chat will pull out the harshest and rudest comments for the slightest misstep, or even possible misinterpretation. I think maybe the dev team could do with some of that approach. Seeing the forums as a kind of 4-chan brewing pit of poisonous crap, with the occasional unpolished gem floating to the top. After all, the hating forum posters don't only find blizzard to be mentally challenged, they hold most of the other forum posters in the same regard. In general, these posters find all the other posters (that don't agree with their every single idea) to be Royal Morons. So from Blizzards point of view it may look like a unified front against the dev team, but it is in fact more like a horde of hedgehogs of hate, everyone pointing spikes in all directions, including the other hedgehogs of hate. Everyone agrees that what blizzard is doing is horrible and bad and retarded, but they say the same thing of most of the other posters suggestions. The forums just hate on anything in sight, because it's easy, and because vocal minority. A better approach would be to not try to suppress the haters (gl with that... can you hold back the tide as well when you are done with that?), but rather encourage the good posts. In these feedbacks, if you occasionally refer to a specific poster, or specific posts that affected your discussion at any point (even if it didn't actually change anything at the end of the day), throw out a shout-out, or maybe even link to the post. It'll make everyone want to be the person cited, and will at least increase motivation for good feedback, if not suppress recreational hating. Consumers will vote with their feet, feedback on community forums are a good indication of the general vibe of the community. If you do not have a good response to community concerns not only will you lose conumers, by word of mouth you will also lose potential consumers. Yes some will just be playing, but more will just stop playing without having said a thing. There seems to be a general view in video games that people complaining are whiners and do not represent the majority of people thus ignoring the criticism will have no real impact. This is just plain wrong. Here are some cool business facts. 1. Price is not the main reason for customer churn, it is actually due to the overall poor quality of customer service – Accenture global customer satisfaction report 2008. 2. A customer is 4 times more likely to defect to a competitor if the problem is service-related than price- or product-related – Bain & Company. 3. The probability of selling to an existing customer is 60 – 70%. The probability of selling to a new prospect is 5-20% – Marketing Metrics. 4. For every customer complaint there are 26 other unhappy customers who have remained silent –Lee Resource. 5. A 2% increase in customer retention has the same effect as decreasing costs by 10% – Leading on the Edge of Chaos, Emmet Murphy & Mark Murphy. 6. 96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back – 1Financial Training services. 7. A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people. – White House Office of Consumer Affairs. 8. Happy customers who get their issue resolved tell about 4-6 people about their experience. – White House Office of Consumer Affair. 9. 70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated – McKinsey. 10. 55% of customers would pay extra to guarantee a better service – Defaqto research. 11. Customers who rate you 5 on a scale from 1 to 5 are six times more likely to buy from you again, compared to ‘only’ giving you a score of 4.8. – TeleFaction data research. 12. It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience – “Understanding Customers” by Ruby Newell-Legner. 13. A 5% reduction in the customer defection rate can increase profits by 5 – 95% – Bain & Company. 14. It costs 6–7 times more to acquire a new customer than retain an existing one – Bain & Company. 15. eCommerce spending for new customers is on average $24.50, compared to $52.50 for repeat customers – McKinsey. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 30 2016 13:25 Kurbz wrote: Consumers will vote with their feet, feedback on community forums are a good indication of the general vibe of the community. If you do not have a good response to community concerns not only will you lose conumers, by word of mouth you will also lose potential consumers. Yes some will just be playing, but more will just stop playing without having said a thing. There seems to be a general view in video games that people complaining are whiners and do not represent the majority of people thus ignoring the criticism will have no real impact. This is just plain wrong. Here are some cool business facts. + Show Spoiler + 1. Price is not the main reason for customer churn, it is actually due to the overall poor quality of customer service – Accenture global customer satisfaction report 2008. 2. A customer is 4 times more likely to defect to a competitor if the problem is service-related than price- or product-related – Bain & Company. 3. The probability of selling to an existing customer is 60 – 70%. The probability of selling to a new prospect is 5-20% – Marketing Metrics. 4. For every customer complaint there are 26 other unhappy customers who have remained silent –Lee Resource. 5. A 2% increase in customer retention has the same effect as decreasing costs by 10% – Leading on the Edge of Chaos, Emmet Murphy & Mark Murphy. 6. 96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back – 1Financial Training services. 7. A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people. – White House Office of Consumer Affairs. 8. Happy customers who get their issue resolved tell about 4-6 people about their experience. – White House Office of Consumer Affair. 9. 70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated – McKinsey. 10. 55% of customers would pay extra to guarantee a better service – Defaqto research. 11. Customers who rate you 5 on a scale from 1 to 5 are six times more likely to buy from you again, compared to ‘only’ giving you a score of 4.8. – TeleFaction data research. 12. It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience – “Understanding Customers” by Ruby Newell-Legner. 13. A 5% reduction in the customer defection rate can increase profits by 5 – 95% – Bain & Company. 14. It costs 6–7 times more to acquire a new customer than retain an existing one – Bain & Company. 15. eCommerce spending for new customers is on average $24.50, compared to $52.50 for repeat customers – McKinsey. And how are these business facts that you've copy-pasted off another website at all relevant to the issue at hand? | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Having an easy gold base is a unique feature and will lead to unique games on its own, but for some reason that's not enough and Prion has to have 2 golds? Even the good maps seem to be designed extremely in one-direction, Orbital/Dusk have super easy naturals AND super easy 3rds and fairly easy 4ths which just seems so weird when you compare them to Central Protocol which is the complete opposite. I don't think there is anything totally wrong with having a totally broken map like Prion or Central Protocol, but ONLY if a progamer has the option to never play on that map. Right now tournaments don't have enough maps so when someone plays a BO5/BO7 they will always have to play a broken map, if there were more tournament maps and more vetoes available then we could accept some maps being broken in some matchups. Tournaments with fixed maps like Proleague and NationWars should avoid using the broken maps (I wonder if a Protoss will ever be sent out on Prion in Proleague, and if Prion is ever an ace map that would just be unfortunate). | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
- No experimentation done with unbuildable terrain but walkable terrain aside from plates and rocks to block pylon walls like Medusa. - No experimentation done with certain paths only allowing small units through like Blue Storm. - No using minerals to block paths..... like Monty Hall. Oh man they're really trying to be creative here. | ||
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